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With the recent start of the Ghosting Tour being the latest iteration of a issue I have seen occur in this format specifically a few times, I would like to use this as a means of requesting that draft start using more consistent tournament deadline times to be more in line with how the rest of the site often functions, as well as to reduce player confusion when it comes to the deadline of a given week.
What is the problem?
While ghosting tour is not the first time I have seen this be an issue, the choice for the deadline to be GMT +1 created more confusion then I normally see when it came to the deadline. Many players outright missed the deadline and thus had their games not count or simply not be played, and others were having the start times of their games reviewed by staff to ensure legality when they weren't even aware of the issue. This arises because more often then not, many tours default to GMT-4(/5 depending on the time of year) as the go to deadline for most tours, and with draft occasionally following this pattern it leads the player base to believe that this is norm will be upheld (I will talk about any "issues" with this later). I am of the belief that deciding on a consistent deadline time for these tours will eliminate a lot of player confusion, and therefore a lot of problems with games not being counted/played due to the inconsistency of the tournament staff in deciding deadline times.
What is my proposed solution?
My proposed solution to this is simply making sure that all tournaments when possible have a GMT-4(/5) deadline, and for the main exceptions to this to lean in adding hours to the week (eg -7). I believe one of the main factors leading to games not getting counted, is that for many players it is common to see games scheduled later in the day on both Saturday and Sunday, as that is when many players have free time, shortening that time by 4 (and in the ghosting tour's case 5) hours can leave players unknowingly having their scheduled times not work, or played games not being counted.
Can't players just read the rules?
Yes, they can. However when more often then not major tiers have fixed deadline times across all their tours, draft should follow this trend of consistency in decision making as it reduces the risk of errors being made by the player base. This consistency does not come at the cost of competitiveness, or anyone's comfort (especially if my suggestion of limiting changes in deadline times to anything that provides more time then a 11:59pm GMT-4 deadline is taken seriously). Tournaments should when possible (in my opinion) make it as easy and accessible for a seasoned player of the format to be able to know what the expected rulings are without having to double check on every tournament.
What about the hosts?
While yes, a consistent deadline time might make some aspects of hosting a tour more inconvenient, with the size of the draft moderation team and fact that it is okay if a round goes up a bit after the deadline (I've seen stuff go up on Tuesdays and have been told it's happened even later, not saying that this should be encouraged but just pointing it out). Threads can be easily locked by someone else with forum mod privileges (of which this format again has many) and timestamps are still available to ensure that a game was played before/after the deadline if the thread is not locked in time. While wanting a tournament to run as smoothly and quickly as possible is very reasonable, I believe that minor delays that aim to service the general player base are overall positive changes.
Why GMT-4? Isn't that American-centric?
Kind of??? I mean I can't really argue with this one, however I can point out that again this deadline is something much more standardized across the site, and therefore something that people from many different timezones have gotten used to doing. You could make the same argument that a standardized GMT+-0 deadline could be just as problematic for someone on the West coast of NA whose best times for playing are Sunday evenings. You can't make a system that works for everyone, however making a consistent system allows for people who it may not function as great for to know what they will have to work around. It is worth noting that the main reason this deadline time is changed is to accomodate for Ladder Tours, as making the deadlines for that "American-centric" can directly give some people an advantage, an issue which draft will never have to face.
In conclusion
While I have brought this up in passing to tournament staff, I wanted to make a public post discussing this as I have noticed this to be far more uniquely a draft issue, and would love to see this format be more approachable to new players coming from the rest of Smogon, consistent for the draft veterans, and overall to try and have less games be left un-played, or flipped even if they were played due to the inconsistent decision making. I believe my proposed solution is simple, and doesn't have many of the downsides people would assume it to have. If the place for this is not a post in a discussion thread, I ask that I am alerted and that this can be made into its own discussion thread as a proposal. Thank you for reading!
With the recent start of the Ghosting Tour being the latest iteration of a issue I have seen occur in this format specifically a few times, I would like to use this as a means of requesting that draft start using more consistent tournament deadline times to be more in line with how the rest of the site often functions, as well as to reduce player confusion when it comes to the deadline of a given week.
What is the problem?
While ghosting tour is not the first time I have seen this be an issue, the choice for the deadline to be GMT +1 created more confusion then I normally see when it came to the deadline. Many players outright missed the deadline and thus had their games not count or simply not be played, and others were having the start times of their games reviewed by staff to ensure legality when they weren't even aware of the issue. This arises because more often then not, many tours default to GMT-4(/5 depending on the time of year) as the go to deadline for most tours, and with draft occasionally following this pattern it leads the player base to believe that this is norm will be upheld (I will talk about any "issues" with this later). I am of the belief that deciding on a consistent deadline time for these tours will eliminate a lot of player confusion, and therefore a lot of problems with games not being counted/played due to the inconsistency of the tournament staff in deciding deadline times.
What is my proposed solution?
My proposed solution to this is simply making sure that all tournaments when possible have a GMT-4(/5) deadline, and for the main exceptions to this to lean in adding hours to the week (eg -7). I believe one of the main factors leading to games not getting counted, is that for many players it is common to see games scheduled later in the day on both Saturday and Sunday, as that is when many players have free time, shortening that time by 4 (and in the ghosting tour's case 5) hours can leave players unknowingly having their scheduled times not work, or played games not being counted.
Can't players just read the rules?
Yes, they can. However when more often then not major tiers have fixed deadline times across all their tours, draft should follow this trend of consistency in decision making as it reduces the risk of errors being made by the player base. This consistency does not come at the cost of competitiveness, or anyone's comfort (especially if my suggestion of limiting changes in deadline times to anything that provides more time then a 11:59pm GMT-4 deadline is taken seriously). Tournaments should when possible (in my opinion) make it as easy and accessible for a seasoned player of the format to be able to know what the expected rulings are without having to double check on every tournament.
What about the hosts?
While yes, a consistent deadline time might make some aspects of hosting a tour more inconvenient, with the size of the draft moderation team and fact that it is okay if a round goes up a bit after the deadline (I've seen stuff go up on Tuesdays and have been told it's happened even later, not saying that this should be encouraged but just pointing it out). Threads can be easily locked by someone else with forum mod privileges (of which this format again has many) and timestamps are still available to ensure that a game was played before/after the deadline if the thread is not locked in time. While wanting a tournament to run as smoothly and quickly as possible is very reasonable, I believe that minor delays that aim to service the general player base are overall positive changes.
Why GMT-4? Isn't that American-centric?
Kind of??? I mean I can't really argue with this one, however I can point out that again this deadline is something much more standardized across the site, and therefore something that people from many different timezones have gotten used to doing. You could make the same argument that a standardized GMT+-0 deadline could be just as problematic for someone on the West coast of NA whose best times for playing are Sunday evenings. You can't make a system that works for everyone, however making a consistent system allows for people who it may not function as great for to know what they will have to work around. It is worth noting that the main reason this deadline time is changed is to accomodate for Ladder Tours, as making the deadlines for that "American-centric" can directly give some people an advantage, an issue which draft will never have to face.
In conclusion
While I have brought this up in passing to tournament staff, I wanted to make a public post discussing this as I have noticed this to be far more uniquely a draft issue, and would love to see this format be more approachable to new players coming from the rest of Smogon, consistent for the draft veterans, and overall to try and have less games be left un-played, or flipped even if they were played due to the inconsistent decision making. I believe my proposed solution is simple, and doesn't have many of the downsides people would assume it to have. If the place for this is not a post in a discussion thread, I ask that I am alerted and that this can be made into its own discussion thread as a proposal. Thank you for reading!
i don't play draft but regarding the deadline thing, chaos recently added an option to use timestamps from hammertime (the discord timestamp service) on smogon, which automatically converts time to the viewer's timezone. if you wanted to avoid confusion you could just make the deadline a timestamp, which would be something like
"Deadline for games is <t:1748217644:F> (20:00 Sunday GMT-4)"
the above should be shown in your own timezone, which for me because i'm in gmt+7 it would be monday 7am. the actual time note is in case the timestamp breaks for some reason but i have genuinely never seen it malfunction at all
i don't play draft but regarding the deadline thing, chaos recently added an option to use timestamps from hammertime (the discord timestamp service) on smogon, which automatically converts time to the viewer's timezone. if you wanted to avoid confusion you could just make the deadline a timestamp, which would be something like
"Deadline for games is <t:1748217644:F> (20:00 Sunday GMT-4)"
the above should be shown in your own timezone, which for me because i'm in gmt+7 it would be monday 7am. the actual time note is in case the timestamp breaks for some reason but i have genuinely never seen it malfunction at all
I understand this exists, and that isn't my point. Its not about the clarity of the deadlines, but more a request for stronger standards across draft tournaments in similar deadline times as this is the only format I have seen have as many issues as I have seen with games not being counted/played due to fluctuating deadlines, and I think that a more standardized approach will fix more problems then it causes (if it causes any problems at all, which I don't think it will).
Over the past few months Tera Zarude has been terrorizing draft leagues all across the community. Many people have even demanded a Tera ban on Zarude due to the near unstoppable sweeping power Tera provides it. Its ability to sweep with Swords Dance or Bulk Up sets and support itself with Jungle Healing, ensuring it can't be stopped by status conditions, makes it a fearsome, unpredictable foe to deal with.
Zarude's glaring weakness is merely the amount of moves it can have, as it often wants 5-6 moves to do everything it "needs" to do in a matchup, however its natural bulk makes it difficult to muscle through and its ability to ramp up in a matchup makes it difficult to scout what exactly these 4 moves are going to be without just losing to those moves. Without a single reliable counter to Zarude, teams will often have to have multiple ways to deal with Zarude, and near every single Pokemon on the team can't be setup fodder for it, making it very difficult to build against. Phazing it out or disrupting it some way else is the best immediate response, but thanks to Taunt or even Throat Chop this is not always possible.
This suspect test will be held in an unconventional way as it is an unconventional format. The requirement to vote in this suspect test is being named "drizzle" on Smogon, and to get requirements you must reach top cut in at least 1 Seasonal with Tera Zarude. The deadline is Monday, May 19th at 11:59pm GMT -7.
The Draft
This was how the trip down mono dark lane started. I wanted to use Tera Zarude after squandering my opportunity to get in last seasonal, and Round 2 my best speed option was unfortunately Roaring Moon. Afterwards I noticed Ting Lu was still around and was pretty surprised at that so I just decided to commit to the darkness. I had already committed when I asked honestly and I was just looking for a reason not to. Afterwards I knew I would need a special wall and not-Fairy + Fighting weakness so even though Alolan Muk is pretty low-priority I couldn't take any chances, so I took it and my backup spiker Overqwil back to back. I knew I would need at least some form of hazard removal, and would you look at that, the only Dark-type with a removal move this gen is Mandibuzz, which fit nicely, giving me a much needed Ground immune. Afterwards was the support goat Sableye, while also making sure a Choice Band CC doesn't just wipe my team down. My last slot was my secondary Tera Captain and I was flexing Hoopa-U and Goltres, and although I would have loved Hoopa-U, Goltres would prove to be more than suitable after an untimely snipe. Now I'm playing mono dark without either of the Protean starters, and in case you aren't familiar with the monotype format those 2 are both kinda considered must brings on a dark team. And I have neither. Let's run it!
Something I noticed about this matchup is how a well timed Lum Berry (this item will come up quite a bit!) Falinks with No Retreat, CC, SD/Sub, and Megahorn would just mop the floor with me so I decided to build around a Ghost Zarude, expecting a lack of Dark/Ghost coverage versus a mono Dark team. My game plan, and this turns out to be the game plan for quite a few games, was use my supporting pieces to scout for info and then win with Zarude. I didn't need much Attack investment to get the job done here, giving myself just enough to OHKO Greninja with a Trailblaze at +1 and enough Speed to outspeed Baxcalibur in case I needed to deal with some shenanigans while it was in snow. Outside of Greninja there was no Ghost resistance so I felt safe with mono Ghost coverage, and Synthesis was necessary over Jungle Healing despite the fact they had snow. Because who brings a Slowking-G versus mono Dark anyways? Scarf RM was in case Superpower Ogerpon got out of hand somehow, lord only knows what I was thinking with that Ting-Lu spread. I trust myself so it was probably really good. Enough Speed investment for an Enamorus-T creeping my base 50s. I was really worried about Ogerpon so in addition to Scarf RM I had physically defensive Mandibuzz, also useful for pivoting versus Falinks and Treads. Muk for Greninja, Goltres kinda just here as an emergency button for Greninja and Baxcalibur in case they got too out of hand but I didn't expect it to do much this game honestly.
Really not much to talk about. The Torrent Counter Gren lead was a cute tech that really got me but since Muk was literally only there for Gren, I was more than ok with that trade. Afterwards Falinks came in immediately so I was just able to start my plan. Double checked that Falinks didn't get Taunt, and executed successfully. Sometimes games work out exactly like you expect them to a lot faster than you expected them to, and you take those games when you can! GG WombatBaby.
Ouch. Tera Tusk, Bisharp, and P2 were all very viable picks to tera against me, and breaking Tinkaton would not be fun. Since there was no real way to cheese a win like I did Round 1, I decided to build good ol' fashioned HO and cheese that way. I hoped to Bulk Up + Drain Punch past P2 and Bisharp, with tera Ghost for the same reason as last game, and then Power Whip took on Rotom-W and Tusk before tera pretty well. I'll be honest I had no plans on what to set up on, maybe a Rotom-W trying to Wisp, but I just knew with this rough mu I had to play to break stuff with this, maybe pop a Tinkaton Air Balloon, and then sweep with my next Pokemon Roaring Moon. I hoped for an offensive Tusk since it's tempting to run offensive Tusk when you can, even though defensive Fairy Tusk just walls my whole team, and I wouldn't need much chip to run through the rest of the team with this. After, my dedicated spinblocker Sableye. Full phys def to pretend to take on the Tusk even though Play Rough 2hkos even with the Roseli Berry. Then, my sacrificial lead rocker Ting-Lu. It may be slightly unconventional to have the bulkiest Pokemon in the format be a sacrificial lead, but against Tusk and Rotom-W it was realistically my best option. SD Overqwil looked really good and I thought I could get away with no Dark move. Shuca helps me live a Ground move from Tusk or coverage from Hearthflame/Dragonite. Goltres was a pretty bad bring here honestly, but I felt like nothing else fit the feel of the team so I just brought it along and put some random stuff on like sure dark fire coverage looks good here enjoy.
Actually got off to an amazing start, getting some much needed chip on the Ogerpon thanks to a good prediction on my part and got my Zarude going. When I saw Rotom-W come out immediately I knew something was afoot but nothing on my team couldn't really afford to get a Scarf so just hoped it would be something like Rindo Berry Wisp and I would get to eat my Lum. Unfortunately it was not. Getting to kill Rotom was still pretty good for Overqwil so I thought maybe there was still a chance. Seeing Bisharp was even better for a late Overqwil so I decided to try my luck at landing Power Whips and actually landed 5 consecutively. After, seeing Tink instead of DNite was a dream come true as if I landed another Tink was already in range of a Moon EQ, and despite it being RestTalk phys def (a perfect bring against me), I landed 3 more to keep it close enough in range for me to be comfortable going into Moon. With the last 16 turns going about as well for me as I could ask for, up to Sleep Talk putting Zarude out of its misery, I thought I had a good chance. Based on the EQ damage I saw offensive and although Acro killed, had to assume Scarf, especially since Moon was the last Pokemon I had that could touch Tink so I switched into my Tusk. I made a fantastic double if I do say so myself, and I was rewarded with missing the range (I saw the paste after) into a perfect Sleep Talk roll. Ouch. But I can't complain after how ideally the first turns went. Overqwil still had a chance though, and I thought this was it. I live Headlong Rush into ESpeed from DNite or PR from Tink. Unfortunately, it was Choice Band DNite and it's as good as over. My last real chance was Encore into Rest and go for a flinch with Goltres, or if I hadn't erroneously blown my tera with Zarude, (I was scared of a Cudgel coming out despite being -2) but that unfortunately did not happen and I lost. GG Bouff, 1-1 in Swiss now.
Reeling from the loss last round, this matchup looked far more manageable. Tera Flying Zarude seemed to be the best way for me to deal with Tusk while not being too weak to the rest of the team. I knew Ting-Lu would want to be specially defensive for moth and ghold, and hard countering most Jolteon sets meant being Tera Flying was more than fine. Webs also prove to be quite the issue for this team, so Flying also helps with that if it ever needs to switch out after terastallizing. Moon is here as speed control, I really needed to switch moves this matchup so I went booster as opposed to Scarf even though webs are a serious consideration. This isn't an ideal draft so ideal teams will be hard to come by! Ting-Lu is specially defensive and Fairy moth is very likely so I wanted to be Roseli Berry with enough attack investment to OHKO after a hazard while also living 2 Specs DGleams thanks to the Roseli Berry. Sableye is unfortunately my best way of dealing with Moon. Reflect on DD, gleam it down afterwards. Despite being a 4x weakness Low Kick actually does do more, but since this is my makeshift Tusk answer gleam hits that much harder. I wanted goggles or Taunt Goltres but felt like a Sitrus Berry was necessary in dealing with Moth. Instead, my plan for Spore was just let something sleep and set up with Goltres afterwards. AV Muk good mu, I bring. Facade was in case of Stun Spore moongy or bee or like TWave Jolteon to do more damage in neutral.
Since I didn't have a dedicated lead I decided to kinda just go off vibes, and I felt a Moth lead so I led Muk. Very wrong! Thankfully Ting-Lu is the ultimate momentum reset and I was able to use it to get a spike up. From there the game was kinda just textbook. I was ok letting Sableye sleep as long as it was full, but getting some valuable chip versus Tusk and Moon is all I can ask for it. I wasn't terribly bulky on Goltres so I was happy to see it tank that Overheat aaaaand fail to OHKO with a +1 cane. If I didn't know what Goltres would do for me later in the tour I would want this bum benched for good. Thanks to Sableye everything is in range and I just win from there. GG Plozz. 2-1.
Ok! Another manageable matchup! Fairy or Dragon Bolt will be annoying but nothing I can't handle with good ol' Fairy Zarude. Now is when I admit something incredibly embarrassing, however. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9draft-2328184250 See that replay? That's a mock. I don't normally scout my opponent's replays, truly, but there was something itching at me. Just begging me to check. And I was rewarded. I didn't know what to do. Tell my opponent? Be scum and counterteam? I decided to do a happy medium and just ignore it, although ChronosXZ and everyone else PSA. Hide those mocks! But for me the embarrassing thing is I saw a Hisuian Samurott and decided no hazard control or boots were necessary. Why? I have absolutely 0 clue. Covert Cloak Sableye? Are you kidding me? I had the right idea regarding everything else but thought "Oh. Well I have mono Dark they won't be bringing a dark type move". Even though that dark move is just Spikes. This team doesn't matter it was never winning this game 0 ways of immediately threatening Hamu just go watch this horrible display.
OH WOW! They saw no Mandibuzz and led the spiker what a surprise. Oh yeah big chip 29 nice. Yeah I'm just hatewatching myself no big deal. Ooh nice another 29. Oh wow big prediction. Well now it's 3 spikes vs 3 spikes and rocks and they have prio. And it's just over. What a pathetic little battle. GG ChronosXZ, outprepped and outplayed me and made it look easy.
Round 5
THE TEAM
https://pokepast.es/5ad65f73f91e1606
Well, good news and bad news. Bad news. Tera Torn versus no Flying resist. Good news? Tera Electric Zarude is acceptable since their ground is an alolan dugtrio. More good news? This was a forfeit win! My plan was pretty much just spread stuff with Overqwil, Protect with no Sableye against Cinderace since band HJK will look free, and then maybe win with Tera Ghost Goltres, also acting as a spinblocker so it can switch into Terapagos better. RestoChesto just in case it was Toxic stall terap. Oh, and I even learned from last round look at all the boots I brought! Overqwil could pretty freely get hazards up against me so it wasn't just a angry bring. I gladly take wins whichever form they come in, especially in do-or-die mode. Next!
Oh. That's webs and Tera Blaziken. No problem! Setting up would be incredibly difficult with Zarude so I decided to use it as a stopgap for Blaziken, since I can Trailblaze alongside it and potentially Encore it into a bad move like Protect or it setting up. Tera Grass was a bit of a bait since my real Tera target this game is Goltres, but Tera Grass Trailblaze and Whip actually did some legit damage, just straight up OHKOing Darkrai with the spread I have, even if it has a little bulk. Acro boots Moon might seem a little bit troll, but if the Blaziken was on a balloon I really needed something to hit it. If somehow it got knocked off, great! Otherwise, just standard. Pretty standard Ting-Lu, get hazards up tank hits etc. After this run though I gotta say just run lefties. That item is so broken especially on this like free healing? On a Pokemon that stays in 2-3 turns every time it's in? Yeah please. On mono dark I think it is more excusable since this has to be a blanket check for a loooot of Pokemon. Including Fighting types apparently! Full screens Sab was important here since they had both a lot of threatening setup and a lot of Pokemon that threaten me just by being on the field. Mixed defenses so I could set up on either special or physical Araquanid or Blaziken, as well as Raikou and Darkrai. Night Shade for chip versus this low base HP team. Excluding Ting-Lu. Ok Facade is real this time I PROMISE! It can be Wisp Darkrai and this is my Darkrai answer! And Scald Raikou! Did I click it? Spoilers. No! Of course not! No problem, it actually does a lot of damage this game. And now for the star of the show. You can tell when a Pokemon of mine is important when the spread looks like that. 20 Speed did enough for Agility to outspeed everything, importantly Scarf Ghold since if it came that's bad news for the newly Fairy-type Goltres.
THE BATTLE https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9draft-2342031666
Ok. No ghold? Game time. Just leading it and clicking stuff, I was able to immediately severely chip Ting-Lu which was huge. Unfortunately it phazed me into Muk which literally didn't kill it. Maybe Ting-Lu should be suspect tested instead. Despite exhausting my tera already I was able to bait in the Blaziken still and maybe this is my chance to get the chip I need or even Encore it into whatever-. Oh nice miss. Unfortunately I can't mess around predicting against this for hazards with my Ting Lu but now's a good chance to get screens up with-. Oh! Nice! Specs! Or Mystic Water but it would've needed to be a fairly high roll for that. Well, I can't take chances on Raikou being TWave or Roar and it is! Makes perfect sense, good prep. At least this led me into the correct one and I am finally able to get some hazards going. And thanks to Roaring Moon having absurdly high Special Defense for some inexplicable reason, I was able to win that interaction. No Iron Head means I can't let this Tera Fairy Mesprit set up on me, but Poison Jab looks fantastic here. So I click. I didn't want to let Volt Switch chip me and 2 spikes up ensures this Raikou is dead. Missing Ruination is no good!! I needed that chip!! At least Goltres got another chance to come in since Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb would be redundant for Zarude, and correctly predicting it to be Taunt I just take it out. I'm not out of the woods yet. I needed that Reflect gone so I sacked off Roaring Moon on the Calm Mind, and thank goodness I did because that Weakness Policy was scary. I knew Raikou would be sacked off here to get Blaziken in for free since Encore Mesprit definitely beat my bird 1v1, and I couldn't let that happen so I sent in my bird, and despite taking 3 iterations of spikes the absolute goat Muk stuck it out for me and I was in a winning position. Additionally, because my Goltres was an HP that is a multiple of 4 I was able to proc my Sitrus Berry, keeping me out of any possible range. All I need to do is land a Hurricane. No problem! Everyone knows how accurate that move is! 70% of the time my tournament run continues, and it does. GG Brayz, if this is any indication I'll need my prep and play to be even more clean.
What in the unholy world am I looking at? 2 fighting types and 1 of them can tera? With webs? And 2 other Tera Captains I just can't deal with? Well alright! An unconventional team requires unconventional prep. Tera Ghost Zarude is essential here with all the Fighting type moves that are gonna be spammed, physically defensive Mandibuzz needs to come in clutch as a pivot, desperately need screens for... everything. Desperately need Ting-Lu with a Chople Berry for.......... everything. And offensive Scarf Overqwil is legitimately my wincon. It's also definitely going to be my lead, as with Intimidate I can tank any hit from everything excluding Lando and threaten a 2hko. I also believe it might condition my opponent to expect the unexpected, when most of my other sets are pretty standard. Aside from bulky Endure Custap RM, which is my emergency button for................................. everything! Well, when everything's threatening maybe nothing's threatening. I'm going into this game happy with my run, so a loss here wouldn't crush me.
Well unfortunately they led Lando, but hey I brought Waterfall over the stronger Liquidation for. this. reason. exactly. And despite not flinching I do dodge the Sandsear Storm after, which is beyond massive. But hey, that Pokemon does have Earth Power so... just click that instead? (in all seriousness, my run would have been over if that connected and the extra power probably did do something. Sorry.) I did promise myself to win after that bail out, so I doubled into Mandibuzz to pivot against whatever they wanted to bring in against Waterfall. When Ribombee came in against Zarude I had that same feeling as I did when Rotom-W did, and I once again just had to ignore that instinct and pray. Like last game, it did NOT work out! Hey turns out Tera Zarude isn't that broken when you play it like it should 6-0 every matchup immediately. Just something to consider in this suspect test. Even though Haxorus was Tera Dark, Foul Play would still do a ton and Mandibuzz takes very little in return. Ok. 1 threat down, 5 to go. Seeing Terrakion immediately Tera Blast was notable, and it made me think it was Choice Scarf, but with no knowledge yet I had to just keep playing it out. After 1 timely full para, my goat Zarude kept that Substitute off for good. Rest in peace king. And this is the slowest Roaring Moon in existence but they don't know that! Luckily I do dodge another move after they correctly just sack it. 2 threats down! Looking at the rest of my team it is clear just how much Overqwil dodging that move impacted the game since I am able to leverage it against literally everything left. Then I just completely forget how Justified works because I'm a big dummy and almost throw the game but the world wanted this run to continue, and Overqwil cleans up the mess. I never found out if this was Scarf, but I think it's a very safe assumption. GG Antares, I would apologize again but mons is mons and I need to take my blessings where I can.
Well, I'm now punished for that win with another Tera Blaziken. And this matchup is even rougher for me. There's nothing really to say about this team. It's incredibly standard with 1 singular "goal". And it has to do with that second move on Goltres. Oh, and what does "deef" mean? I haven't the faintest idea. I just know this person says it a lot. While it's usually not smart to use a word like that without knowing what it means, I'm really too scared to look it up. See, my team struggles with not having a Flying resist so I'm pretty keen on what Flying type moves can do, and since their Flying resist is Jirachi, no good into my team, I thought that it was time to unleash the bird. But Tera Blast just means terap can Roar/Toxic me out of commission so gotta flinch that of course. Could I just Taunt it? Maybe, but if it just Tera Starstorms I'd need a flinch afterwards anyways. Fast enough to outspeed everything possible even with a Choice Scarf, with a ton of bulk to let it set up, it's totally possible that this just wins.
I knew the Swampert would get rocks up and that's not damage I could afford to take so I went for it. And then 1... taunted the Swampert in case it was Roar... got the flinch I'm so good... 2... 3. 4. 5. 6. Yay. Robbery after robbery and I'm just getting away with it for free.
After a couple of rounds of cheese I was actually really relieved to see an honest team even if Tera Primarina and Moth proved to be big problems for me. And guess who's sitting on the bench for the second week in a row? Fraud Zarude. To be fair to Zarude though, this team has an unnatural amount of physical walls, including Zapdos which practically forces Tera Electric. I see Meowscarada, I bring physically defensive helmet Overqwil. It's predictable, punishable, and they can even match spikes stack, but I just can't help myself. Goltres returns as the real star of this team, and I had no problem going Tera Electric on this since Garchomp is one of those Pokemon that seems to struggle staying full health for long, and I wouldn't need much chip damage to get the job done. Another fairly defensive spread, with enough speed investment to creep a Scarf Meowscarada that is creeping my Moon. AV Muk makes another appearance, being the best way for me to deal with both Moth and Primarina. Oh look no Facade this time! I didn't end up clicking the move that is in its place, but at least it isn't taking up space on my moveslots. I decided to try and creep Primarina that had a little investment since I thought it could pretty freely go full bulk. Ting-Lu that should have just been Leftovers is back with its eq ruination hazard +1 moveset. I brought Moon back as my speed control, even sporting Protect to scout Meowscarada and protect myself from First Impression Spidops, which looked good as a potential check. STAB is overrated in monotype anyways, and Moon's STABs were pretty bad here. Screens demon Sableye makes a return as the enabler for pretty much the whole team.
Got a Muk lead wrong yet again, and in an early game where Ting-Lu would have cashed in Leftovers healing more than Sitrus Berry in the first 8 turns, wasn't too promising but taking out the Garchomp early was really big for Goltres. Getting the Knock Off Poison Touch on Zapdos was really big, even though it was likely setup fodder for Goltres, and thanks to some tricky clicks I was able to find out some important info on their team while keeping Zapdos low health. Ting-Lu unfortunately really felt the lack of Leftovers this match, as it would have been at about 30% after this interaction, but keeping a sack is really helpful in a matchup against what is likely Choice locked Meowscarada. Unfortunately I cannot let Moth U-turn so I have to expend my sack earlier than would have been ideal. This time I knew for an absolute fact I was getting Tricked, and was more than OK getting some free spikes up. I was even able to save it due to Meowscarada losing its Dark typing! I really, really should have just gotten up a Light Screen but I greeded for saving Sableye for Rapid Spin since I did not anticipate Fiery Dance. I was almost really burned for it, but thankfully Goltres was able to clutch up and secure me a win, taking me to 7-2. Being 1-2 this was a fantastic feeling even if some (most) of the wins were not exactly deserved. I think the hax police saw the amount of effort I needed to put it for a win and just said, "Yeah sure". And 7 wins gets top cut! Unfortunately there was 1 more round before it was official. GG Tamafuyu.
Well, what a test for my last round before top cut. Truly a near impossible matchup, everything that has been a concern for me is all on the same team. I thought that maybe Klefki would be a Magician set this game since I had mono Dark, so I thought that I could get away with having this set, which beats every Pokemon pretty easily 1v1 besides Klefki and Munkidori. I could have gone Encore but if something like Roar Tusk or Rhyperior came it would be bad news. Finally wisened up and put Leftovers on my otherwise standard Ting-Lu, and my standard Moon has Fire Fang instead of EQ since, again, I was prepping for Magician Air Balloon Klefki. Brought the same Sableye set I brought against my last Tusk + Moon matchup, this time with screens since everyone has been bringing Lum/Mental Herb on the Pokemon that Sableye can check. Phys def Mandibuzz is about all I have for RM, and since I have no boots I will need something to remove webs. Finally, specially defensive Muk is my best way of dealing with both demon key (ID + CM) and CM Keldeo, holding a Shuca Berry for the 2 Ground types on the team, although I should never want to stay in against either of them.
After my 2nd bad Muk lead you would think I just give it up, but if there's anything about me it's that I don't give up. Since it was Tera Fairy Tusk I really needed some chip damage on it, so getting that prediction was huge even if it meant I lost a really good piece in this game. Afterwards I assumed they would want to save Tusk so I decided to just pull the trigger. I think I actually would have lived any hit after and got to Synthesis afterwards so I should have just killed the Keldeo, but unfortunately I did not and now I've exhausted pretty much everything. So like every skilled player I got my 3 layers up and just got the Klefki out of there. Unfortunately I did roll the worst thing I could have and now defogging was out of the question, so I just decided to exhaust the last thing I had. I probably should have U-Turned, but if an aggressive switch into Zapdos was made I would have got a big poison against that. And besides, I definitely needed this Klefki damaged. If that Ruination landed I would be in a fantastic situation, and I should have just gone Zarude here but I'm not infallible to tilt clicks and I get rewarded by a dodge of my own. Since I knew it was Specs I could get RM in for free and try to DD against a Zapdos switch in. Correctly predicting a U-turn, I was able to get up to 5-3 and in a fantastic position, as long as I don't let Klefki win the game should be mine. After some sacks I probably could have avoided or played better, I unfortunately had to deal with 3 turn Outrage into no confusion so now it was getting a little tough. My calc showed me I should win this interaction no matter what, but a crit and I'm done. No crit here though, and I officially move onto to top cut. GG Freetle.
I have lucked out so for in avoiding Val with this draft, so I suppose it was only a matter of time. But man. Why does it have to also be Tera Torn against my Flying resistless team? Honestly, literally everything on this team poses a threat. My greatly physical team really struggles against physical walls, so for there to be 4 solid physical walls, including even Pecharunt, means I just can't prep for everything. I just can't. I thought about Nasty Plot Zarude but it just never did enough damage to Torn or Dragonite, the best plan I could really come up was unfortunately this. RM was incredible here if I can just get Dragonite Multiscale off, so it was ultimately what I considered to be my win condition. A standard Ting-Lu would just get walled and spun on by Forretress, so I wanted lead Band Ting-Lu to threaten a potential Vikavolt, even though I thought it would just be something like Throat Spray Bug Buzz and not webs, and if not I would at least get my rocks up. Sableye is a really good defensive piece here, getting to potentially paralyze the Dragonite, Val, and Torn. Since I thought there were 6 better Pokemon than Pecharunt here I thought Pecharunt just would not come so I could get away with this Goltres set. Leftovers helps me in interactions against Forretress, Pecharunt, Dragonite, and Ting-Lu. And Torn to an extent. I didn't need any Speed to outspeed anything, and I assumed there just would not be any Choice Scarf brought against me. AV Muk makes a return to "deal" with any possible Torn set I thought would come (Flying/Fairy/Dark) as well as having Flamethrower to hit Forretress pretty hard just in case, because if I weaken Forretress Goltres has a much easier time. Mandibuzz is here to pretend to switch into Val.
On preview, can't fault a guy for trying. Nobody has brought a Dark weak to me so far and I truly thought Vikavolt, or even Duraludon, would be that last slot over Pech. My plan was still the same, and since I had nothing for Pecharunt I desperately had to get this Earthquake off. Just gotta say that only taking 67 from a base 110 Attack STAB Choice Band Max Attack Adamant EQ is a crime against humanity. It was a relatively low roll, but still. C'mon. That damage was insanely good for me since it meant if they are never able to heal it back up somehow, +2 Fairy Tera Blast from Goltres always kills. Oh, and you just know a game is doomed when they send out the Pokemon you want to check with the Pokemon you currently have out. If I just had Knock Off this would actually be pretty good, but I do not, and they are already able to heal up Pecharunt. I assume it was Colbur Pecharunt anyways, but still tough. And I did know this was their plan but I literally couldn't do anything about it. Get a big 13% chip against Ting-Lu after Leftovers, and decide to pull the trigger after some pivoting back and forth. I unfortunately get called out by a very good Dragonite set, and even though I saw TWave I thought it was just slightly bulky and because I had 0 Speed I would have gotten outsped, but had I just Tera Blasted there maybe I would have been able to break through paras and gotten some good damage off against the rest of the team. Now my gameplan is just set up a Roaring Moon endgame, but with the pieces I have it is just too hard. I get some good para fortune, but not enough and my last chance is full para right now, but even if I did get it there they can just force me to Outrage with Torn or Pecharunt, and just go to Val from there. Going out like this kinda sucks, but after all the close calls I barely slipped away with it's nice to lose to a good player with an absurd top 3, and for it to not even be close as opposed to finally getting my hax comeuppance. GG KCric, if you mess this up from here with your team after beating me I will be not happy.
In order for Tera Zarude to receive a ban, a minimum 100% pro-ban supermajority (1 ban vote) will be required. Voting stage ends on Monday, May 19th at 11:59p.m. GMT -7
Well, if you draft mono Dark and try and 6-0 in the first 10 turns without finding anything out about your opponent's team, Tera Zarude looks pretty balanced so I think I have to vote Do Not Ban.
And that settles it! Tera Zarude will remain legal in SV Tera Preview Draft.
Tagging #1 Draft player and Draft Leader Hacker to implement.
Gm. I am back with another meta revolutionary post, although this one isn't nearly as controversial as Lugia. I know of many people in the scene who feel this way already and some talks have started happening, but I wanted to get some more discussion going in the general public too. TL;DR, Sleep moves should be banned from SV draft.
We all know what Sleep does at this point. OU went through this debate already this gen (sleep clause is archaic, sleep is inherently broken/too random, etc etc). While the discussion largely originates from Darkrai, it's not the only mon that takes advantage of Sleep. We've seen several mons throw Hypnosis or Sleep Powder on to try to RNG their way through checks (Ninetales, Hisuian Lilligant). This can be game ending in SV more so than any other generation due to how high this gen's power level is.
The main argument against banning Sleep has historically been that Sleep Clause is enough to keep it in check, and inaccurate sleep moves are too unreliable to be widely used. I myself also used to think this way, but sadly people have realized the risk/reward is actually skewed heavily in the Sleep move user's favor. As a result, we've seen inaccurate sleep moves brought to DCL games multiple times. DCL is the highest level of Smogon Draft competition, so if people are willing to bring these moves to these games, that's a strong indicator that Sleep Clause is no longer enough.
An argument made during the OU discussion was that, sometimes, Sleep Clause can actually be beneficial to the Sleep move user. If the opponent picks the most expendable mon on their team as Sleep fodder and the Sleep move misses, then they're simply just down momentum. Sleep clause has never been fully cartridge accurate, so being able to benefit from it in an unintended way is very problematic. I think it's time for Draft to do away with Sleep Clause and fully ban Sleep moves just like SV OU.
It's not worth banning Darkrai to preserve Sleep. Darkrai is a legitimately healthy presence in the format otherwise, being a strong special attacker that isn't a Tera hog (surprisingly rare), and having a valuable Speed tier. Meanwhile, the benefits of keeping Sleep around mostly come from Spore and Yawn users. Since Spore isn't widely distributed, it's easy to prepare for and shut down with Safety Goggles, so Spore users are rarely ever drafted at all. Yawn obviously has the counterplay of switching out of Sleep. which definitely makes it far more balanced. I would miss Yawn, but I don't think its benefits are enough to be worth saving. Many Yawn users have other disruption/status moves they could use instead (Uxie, Galarian Slowking), or at least provide slow momentum (Blastoise, Empoleon).
There's really not much more to say. I don't really know how the possible benefits of keeping Sleep around outweigh its many cons, especially when cartridge accuracy is in the mix. I guess as a final note I'll say I'm only talking about SV Draft in this post, but if oldgen drafts also want to ban sleep...well, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I hope SV does though!
After some more time, I wanted to revisit this post and talk more about the numbers behind sleep odds and how different sleep functions in the SV metagame.
As everyone knows, sleep is a status condition that can last anywhere from 1-3 turns, which means you have about a 33% to wake up on any given turn after the first turn. This means that if Spore was clicked, you have a 33% chance to get a 3 turn sleep. While those are obviously pretty solid odds, as mentioned in the previous post, both Spore and Sleep powder can be countered by either opposing grass types or safety goggles, which in context to the draft format makes them feel more balanced. While there is definitely still good cheese potential with these moves, like running something like red card Amoonguss to force something else to take the sleep condition, it takes a lot more commitment for such strategies to work. (Little side tangent: there is a reason why Smeargle would justifiably run Lovely Kiss over Spore in past gen VGC despite being significantly less accurate, and it is for dealing with this exact counterplay that teams would have prepared for Spore)
Now I want to talk about the more egregious sleep move: Hypnosis. Hypnosis has a 60% to hit, so surely it has to be more balanced, right? No. It's a lot more broken. If you break down the odds, the odds of hitting hypnosis and getting a 3 turn sleep is about 20%. The odds of hitting a hypnosis and at least getting a 2 turn sleep is about 40%. These might not sound like they are that good of odds, so I wanted to compare this to other RNG factors in Pokémon. The odds of getting fully paralyzed on any singular turn is 25%. The odds of getting flinched by a move like Dark Pulse is 20%. Those are the odds for a SINGULAR TURN to prevent an opponent from doing anything. The odds of Hypnosis hitting and preventing the opponent from moving is about the same for THREE WHOLE TURNS. There's no consistent counterplay to this either outside of avoiding switches so you can immediately burn the first turn of sleep. Your other option is to have a dedicated "sleep fodder" option, which can be seen as basically a dead Pokémon that you do not really want to truly sacrifice as it opens up for something more important to be hit by the same move, essentially playing a 5v6. Furthermore, you still have to switch around to have the sleep fodder option, giving your opponent more opportunities to punish you.
There are actually Pokémon in the series that has extremely similar numbers to Hypnosis, being the serene grace twins of Togekiss and Jirachi. The odds of these Pokémon flinching you with Iron Head/Togekiss over 3 turns is about ~21.6%. The odds of these flinching you over 2 turns is about 36%. The odds of a singular flinch is 60%, which is the exact odds of hypnosis landing. Now why aren't these Pokémon viewed as problematic? Well, because it's a lot easier to play around. Togekiss is not even in the game, is pretty slow and does not have consistent ways to setup speed outside of running choice scarf, tailwind, or getting an ancient power boost. Jirachi on the other hand does not even run Iron Head much anymore, in large part because it is a lot harder to commit to flinching people down when there are items like Rocky Helmet or Covert Cloak that are great tools for handling the move. Your options for sleep are... Sleep Talk and Lum Berry. Sleep Talk can be incredibly annoying to justify too, because of the overall inconsistency with sleep turns. You could get a first turn wake up and it effectively is still a 2 turn sleep because you made the mistake of thinking you were not going to get a 1 turn wake up. Lum Berry can actually help the odds a little bit, lowering the 20% odds of a 3 turn sleep to about 11%, but that is assuming your opponent goes for back to back Hypnosis, and this strategy is best when the Pokémon that is holding a Lum berry is already out, guaranteeing you a turn of action. Otherwise, Pokémon like Darkrai are great at forcing switches in the first place, and could justifiably go for trying to reset the position and going for Hypnosis on a switch later in the game instead.
There is one more point I'd like to mention for this that also makes sleep significantly more broken in the SV draft metagame, and that is the loss of Tapu Koko and Tapu Fini. Those are two genuinely amazing Pokémon that help the entire team (the members that are grounded anyway) deal with opposing sleep, to the point where it is more likely that your opponent does not even try bringing sleep moves against you in the first place. Now our only options are.. Galarian Weezing and Pincurchin.
It is really disappointing to me that DCL is utilizing a 4 SV format and will likely not do anything in regards to sleep. It's a big reason why I do not enjoy playing traditional SV formats because there are quite significant odds that you can just lose the game without much you could even do about it. While luck will always be a factor in a game like Pokémon, I am someone that values trying to find consistency and strategies to both play around it and abuse such factors myself, and these specific sleep moves are personally where I draw the line. While I'm not huge on them in past generations, I do find them to typically be more manageable with the pace of the game. Even if DCL only did something minor like just banning sleep moves on Darkrai, I think it would go such a long way with improving the format overall.
After some more time, I wanted to revisit this post and talk more about the numbers behind sleep odds and how different sleep functions in the SV metagame.
As everyone knows, sleep is a status condition that can last anywhere from 1-3 turns, which means you have about a 33% to wake up on any given turn after the first turn. This means that if Spore was clicked, you have a 33% chance to get a 3 turn sleep. While those are obviously pretty solid odds, as mentioned in the previous post, both Spore and Sleep powder can be countered by either opposing grass types or safety goggles, which in context to the draft format makes them feel more balanced. While there is definitely still good cheese potential with these moves, like running something like red card Amoonguss to force something else to take the sleep condition, it takes a lot more commitment for such strategies to work. (Little side tangent: there is a reason why Smeargle would justifiably run Lovely Kiss over Spore in past gen VGC despite being significantly less accurate, and it is for dealing with this exact counterplay that teams would have prepared for Spore)
Now I want to talk about the more egregious sleep move: Hypnosis. Hypnosis has a 60% to hit, so surely it has to be more balanced, right? No. It's a lot more broken. If you break down the odds, the odds of hitting hypnosis and getting a 3 turn sleep is about 20%. The odds of hitting a hypnosis and at least getting a 2 turn sleep is about 40%. These might not sound like they are that good of odds, so I wanted to compare this to other RNG factors in Pokémon. The odds of getting fully paralyzed on any singular turn is 25%. The odds of getting flinched by a move like Dark Pulse is 20%. Those are the odds for a SINGULAR TURN to prevent an opponent from doing anything. The odds of Hypnosis hitting and preventing the opponent from moving is about the same for THREE WHOLE TURNS. There's no consistent counterplay to this either outside of avoiding switches so you can immediately burn the first turn of sleep. Your other option is to have a dedicated "sleep fodder" option, which can be seen as basically a dead Pokémon that you do not really want to truly sacrifice as it opens up for something more important to be hit by the same move, essentially playing a 5v6. Furthermore, you still have to switch around to have the sleep fodder option, giving your opponent more opportunities to punish you.
There are actually Pokémon in the series that has extremely similar numbers to Hypnosis, being the serene grace twins of Togekiss and Jirachi. The odds of these Pokémon flinching you with Iron Head/Togekiss over 3 turns is about ~21.6%. The odds of these flinching you over 2 turns is about 36%. The odds of a singular flinch is 60%, which is the exact odds of hypnosis landing. Now why aren't these Pokémon viewed as problematic? Well, because it's a lot easier to play around. Togekiss is not even in the game, is pretty slow and does not have consistent ways to setup speed outside of running choice scarf, tailwind, or getting an ancient power boost. Jirachi on the other hand does not even run Iron Head much anymore, in large part because it is a lot harder to commit to flinching people down when there are items like Rocky Helmet or Covert Cloak that are great tools for handling the move. Your options for sleep are... Sleep Talk and Lum Berry. Sleep Talk can be incredibly annoying to justify too, because of the overall inconsistency with sleep turns. You could get a first turn wake up and it effectively is still a 2 turn sleep because you made the mistake of thinking you were not going to get a 1 turn wake up. Lum Berry can actually help the odds a little bit, lowering the 20% odds of a 3 turn sleep to about 11%, but that is assuming your opponent goes for back to back Hypnosis, and this strategy is best when the Pokémon that is holding a Lum berry is already out, guaranteeing you a turn of action. Otherwise, Pokémon like Darkrai are great at forcing switches in the first place, and could justifiably go for trying to reset the position and going for Hypnosis on a switch later in the game instead.
There is one more point I'd like to mention for this that also makes sleep significantly more broken in the SV draft metagame, and that is the loss of Tapu Koko and Tapu Fini. Those are two genuinely amazing Pokémon that help the entire team (the members that are grounded anyway) deal with opposing sleep, to the point where it is more likely that your opponent does not even try bringing sleep moves against you in the first place. Now our only options are.. Galarian Weezing and Pincurchin.
It is really disappointing to me that DCL is utilizing a 4 SV format and will likely not do anything in regards to sleep. It's a big reason why I do not enjoy playing traditional SV formats because there are quite significant odds that you can just lose the game without much you could even do about it. While luck will always be a factor in a game like Pokémon, I am someone that values trying to find consistency and strategies to both play around it and abuse such factors myself, and these specific sleep moves are personally where I draw the line. While I'm not huge on them in past generations, I do find them to typically be more manageable with the pace of the game. Even if DCL only did something minor like just banning sleep moves on Darkrai, I think it would go such a long way with improving the format overall.
But… Payton… you are forgetting about the elite options for counterplay such as...
Scarf/AV Vital Spirit Annihilape or…
Insomnia Spidops and outplay.
Meanwhile, Overcoat has numerous usable Pokemon in the format that aren’t between 1 to 5 points, many of whom can take on Spore/SleepPowder users. So natural immunity to these moves isn’t completely restricted to like grass types, magic bounce, or even like adding in gholdengo/annilihape/gweez/pinchurin. There are plenty of natural counters of varying types and a whole item available to almost anything.
Ban Hypnosis, Dark Void, Sing and leave it at that. These moves are not competitive.
I think the question is: "What does having Hypnosis, Dark Void and Sing legal add to the metagame?"
If you're asking me, the best answer to this question is being able to use blunder policy + inaccurate sleep move on mons that are otherwise unable to boost their speed (gengar and prim are the 2 mons that come to mind first for this but I'm sure there are more)
Given that I have never seen a set like this work, and having this be an option is such a small upside, I don't really see what having inaccurate sleep moves be legal is adding to the format.
I'm not gonna go on too much of a tangent, but while I agree with Payton's post to an extent I'm much more in favour of at the very least SV Regional Dex tours adopting a total sleep ban as opposed to just banning a few moves. I understand that there is counterplay to the powder based sleep moves / yawn, but I still believe that the status as a whole is a bit too much of a luck factor and unreliable both for the user of said moves and the person getting hit by them to be something that can add to the format.
1. Counterplay
Really this just comes down to the fact that especially in more limited formats I dont think that saying "overcoat and grass types exist" is a great way to justify the legalization of the powder based moves, and, that still doesn't change the fact that all these moves still come wiht the same issues that Payton described earlier when the sleep connects
2. Logistics ig
I've recently been a huge supporter of trying to limit not just complex bans but any form of more complicated/specific bans. Example would be limiting banned cut moves in ND Ubers to just hidden power (which may not even be completely necessary tbh). Its a practice generally followed by a lot of Smogon formats that I've been a part of, and I think from both a "conformity" and simplicity perspective banning all sleep inducing moves is the better option. This is not to say that I don't think there is genuine competitive merit from Payton's suggestion, I just think this is a more reasonable way to approach a ban given the precedents set on this site already, even if draft historically has had more abstract rulings prior to partnering with Smogon.
I'm not gonna go on too much of a tangent, but while I agree with Payton's post to an extent I'm much more in favour of at the very least SV Regional Dex tours adopting a total sleep ban as opposed to just banning a few moves. I understand that there is counterplay to the powder based sleep moves / yawn, but I still believe that the status as a whole is a bit too much of a luck factor and unreliable both for the user of said moves and the person getting hit by them to be something that can add to the format.
1. Counterplay
Really this just comes down to the fact that especially in more limited formats I dont think that saying "overcoat and grass types exist" is a great way to justify the legalization of the powder based moves, and, that still doesn't change the fact that all these moves still come wiht the same issues that Payton described earlier when the sleep connects
2. Logistics ig
I've recently been a huge supporter of trying to limit not just complex bans but any form of more complicated/specific bans. Example would be limiting banned cut moves in ND Ubers to just hidden power (which may not even be completely necessary tbh). Its a practice generally followed by a lot of Smogon formats that I've been a part of, and I think from both a "conformity" and simplicity perspective banning all sleep inducing moves is the better option. This is not to say that I don't think there is genuine competitive merit from Payton's suggestion, I just think this is a more reasonable way to approach a ban given the precedents set on this site already, even if draft historically has had more abstract rulings prior to partnering with Smogon.
There is nothing complex about banning specific moves outright. Regardless, complex bans are common place in draft, and even in Smogon even if they argue that they don’t like complex bans. Freeze Clause Mod in gen 1 and Sleep Clause Mods across gens are complex bans already.
I do heavily oppose banning cut moves in natdex formats for accessibility and interface purposes, but a ban on specific moves such as Hypnosis are very simple bans that outline uncompetitive and unhealthy moves. Powder moves have safety goggles as well which you didn’t mention and are heavily accessible. I just don’t see your point or why you would ever want this, can you elaborate on why you view this as complex in any way?
Sleep moves also can easily midground swap ins, they are only “inconsistent for the user” if you run them for luck.
There is nothing complex about banning specific moves outright. Regardless, complex bans are common place in draft, and even in Smogon even if they argue that they don’t like complex bans. Freeze Clause Mod in gen 1 and Sleep Clause Mods across gens are complex bans already.
I do heavily oppose banning cut moves in natdex formats for accessibility and interface purposes, but a ban on specific moves such as Hypnosis are very simple bans that outline uncompetitive and unhealthy moves. Powder moves have safety goggles as well which you didn’t mention and are heavily accessible. I just don’t see your point or why you would ever want this, can you elaborate on why you view this as complex in any way?
Sleep moves also can easily midground swap ins, they are only “inconsistent for the user” if you run them for luck.
freeze mod and sleep clause mod arent complex bans and are instead the changing of game mechanics deemed fundamentally uncompetitive after very long periods of discussion. These are not complex bans and you will rarely find them outside of gen 5 ou, a famously unbalanced metagame.
Banning select sleep moves is more complex and also goes against the precendents set in smogons history for how to take action on mechanics like status conditions, weather, etc. This may be draft league, but i believe that draft league under smogon should adhere more closely to smogon policy whenever possible. When we have precedent for modding the game to remove/alter mechanics deemed unhealthy and largely have none for limiting them via more specific bans, again outside of gen 5 ou which shouldnt really be used as a guideline for any tier. That is why i view it as an effective complex ban. Precedent and policy indicates the best way is just to go all or nothing, even if only specific sleep moves are having the MOST unhealthy impact on the game, I believe that still means it is the mechanic as a whole that is the issue and therefore that implementing the sleep moves mod is the best option if action is to be taken beyond sleep clause.
Just because some ways to trigger sleep have more counterplay doesnt make a fair argument for managing something as impactful as sleep, because by that logic lum berry, taunt, sub, mons like Gholdengo and Garganacl are real arguments for keeping hypnosis and sing. You can see how this leads to a lot of arguing about counterplay for the mechanic and delving away from if the mechanic is uncompetative or not, which is what the conversation should be focused on. With a recent example, moody didn't stay legal in Ubers because something like Bidoof was "more competative with more counterplay", it got banned because the variance was too much across the board and deemed uncompetative. That is how things like abilities, weather conditions, etc should be handled, and when we have the precedent for a sleep moves mod needlessly complicating it when the mechanic of sleep itself is fundamentally the issue, is counterintuitive.
D.) Complex bans proposals must provide additional information into why the simpler bans are not sufficient.
I also just want to add this from the lengthy OU tiering policy post that most of the tiering policy on the site is based on (save for like, ubers and thats just for defining the level of uncompetativeness required for a mon/ability etc to be considered bannable). If sleep is going to be banned in any capacity other then full I think an argument needs to be made for why the remaining sleep moves *arent* uncompetitive, and when paytons post clearly highlights the issues with sleep as a status more then hypnosis or sing as a move I think a full sleep ban is the very clear option if action is to be taken, and thats something i support. Sleep as a status is uncompetitive due to the high level of variance it forces into play that can often disrupt the target outcome of "the more skilled player can consistently win". While some sleep moves have more counterplay then others there is not a good justification for trying to keep it in the format based on the "merits" of being able to "play around the luck" per se.
freeze mod and sleep clause mod arent complex bans and are instead the changing of game mechanics deemed fundamentally uncompetitive after very long periods of discussion. These are not complex bans and you will rarely find them outside of gen 5 ou, a famously unbalanced metagame.
Banning select sleep moves is more complex and also goes against the precendents set in smogons history for how to take action on mechanics like status conditions, weather, etc. This may be draft league, but i believe that draft league under smogon should adhere more closely to smogon policy whenever possible. When we have precedent for modding the game to remove/alter mechanics deemed unhealthy and largely have none for limiting them via more specific bans, again outside of gen 5 ou which shouldnt really be used as a guideline for any tier. That is why i view it as an effective complex ban. Precedent and policy indicates the best way is just to go all or nothing, even if only specific sleep moves are having the MOST unhealthy impact on the game, I believe that still means it is the mechanic as a whole that is the issue and therefore that implementing the sleep moves mod is the best option if action is to be taken beyond sleep clause.
Just because some ways to trigger sleep have more counterplay doesnt make a fair argument for managing something as impactful as sleep, because by that logic lum berry, taunt, sub, mons like Gholdengo and Garganacl are real arguments for keeping hypnosis and sing. You can see how this leads to a lot of arguing about counterplay for the mechanic and delving away from if the mechanic is uncompetative or not, which is what the conversation should be focused on. With a recent example, moody didn't stay legal in Ubers because something like Bidoof was "more competative with more counterplay", it got banned because the variance was too much across the board and deemed uncompetative. That is how things like abilities, weather conditions, etc should be handled, and when we have the precedent for a sleep moves mod needlessly complicating it when the mechanic of sleep itself is fundamentally the issue, is counterintuitive.
I also just want to add this from the lengthy OU tiering policy post that most of the tiering policy on the site is based on (save for like, ubers and thats just for defining the level of uncompetativeness required for a mon/ability etc to be considered bannable). If sleep is going to be banned in any capacity other then full I think an argument needs to be made for why the remaining sleep moves *arent* uncompetitive, and when paytons post clearly highlights the issues with sleep as a status more then hypnosis or sing as a move I think a full sleep ban is the very clear option if action is to be taken, and thats something i support. Sleep as a status is uncompetitive due to the high level of variance it forces into play that can often disrupt the target outcome of "the more skilled player can consistently win". While some sleep moves have more counterplay then others there is not a good justification for trying to keep it in the format based on the "merits" of being able to "play around the luck" per se.
Yes, lum, taunt, sub, Gholdengo and Garganacl, etc would be considerations, but all are absolutely not good enough, call them considered and denied on my end, the mons are extremely limited in quantity and don't even respond to some of the most common sleep users effectively. Also, you can't switch in with Lum Berry and avoid sleep from a faster user, and sub is insane committal and still fails on faster sleep users. These moves are fundamentally entirely different. Spore and Sleep Powder are sleep moves that can be negated endlessly in repositioning phases with the proper tools (on literally every single Pokemon in the game tmk except Tera Ogerpon-Wellspring and Tera Ogerpon-Cornerstone), this is a critical difference and completely changes the dynamic of the mechanic. Even if we had a 150 speed Pokemon with Spore and just a few checks I could switch into a Safety Goggles check that does exist, with other sleep moves you just don't have any good plays to make; You can just be put to sleep the following turn. In cases of slow Pokemon using Hypnosis, Lum is still bad because let's say you swap into a Hypnosis from like a Bronzong, pop a lum, but can't outright one shot it, then you are dedicating a Lum Berry and still risk being put to sleep the following turn, leading to an excessive amount of work to actually avoid the process even in this instance.
edit: The mechanic of sleep is not inherently unhealthy, obviously there is a lot of variances in what can happen like in Payton's post, variance is normal in Pokémon. The usefulness of sleep for the actual user of sleep has some clear applications regardless of how long you can put a Pokémon to sleep, it can safely bring in allies with a slower sleep user, act as a strong middle ground with just a single turn of sleep, etc. The basic mechanic of sleep is to take out the opposing Pokémon for at least a singular turn. This isn't broken, the odds of this being longer aren't absurd, the problem is having this swing where the opponent has no options to actually prevent losing up to 3 turns on relatively high odds.
I'm going to give an extremely stupid analogy, an OHKO move is broken because it just kills you, there's no counterplay, Ice Beam is really strong but you can outplay it and go into a resistance, not all damaging moves are broken because we don't like OHKO moves, one can barely be outplayed or answered and the other can (but you need to do certain things), then you we assess whether or not those things are reasonable. This is even true although Ice Beam can still obtain OHKOs, wow! It's almost like one-shotting your opponent isn't inherently unhealthy either.
These are genuinely similar arguments:
- Sheer Cold vs Ice Beam, both can OHKO u, OHKO is broken ban Ice Beam
- Spore vs. Hypnosis, both can Sleep u, Sleep is broken ban Spore
A 20% chance at a 3-turn swing is really strong, but if there is counterplay to prevent 3 turns swinging and the counterplay is sufficient then we should acknowledge that counterplay. Also modifying the game to work in a way that doesn't outright ban a mechanic to neuter it is simply a complex ban with dev work involved, regardless of semantics, if you want to say we should treat it different in precedent, I don't see why that's true intuitively. The broken mechanic isn't sleep; it's the complete lack of reasonable counterplay to it in forms of Hypnosis, Sing and Dark Void. I will not support a ban on something I don't consider unhealthy, and the reality is I don't think I would vote to ban on the basis of sleep itself being unhealthy as a mechanic (at least inherently).
Yes, lum, taunt, sub, Gholdengo and Garganacl, etc would be considerations, but all are absolutely not good enough, call them considered and denied on my end, the mons are extremely limited in quantity and don't even respond to some of the most common sleep users effectively. Also, you can't switch in with Lum Berry and avoid sleep from a faster user, and sub is insane committal and still fails on faster sleep users. These moves are fundamentally entirely different. Spore and Sleep Powder are sleep moves that can be negated endlessly in repositioning phases with the proper tools, this is a critical difference and completely changes the dynamic of the mechanic. Even if we had a 150 speed Pokemon with Spore and just a few checks I could switch into a Safety Goggles check that does exist, with other sleep moves you just don't have any good plays to make; You can just be put to sleep the following turn. In cases of slow Pokemon using Hypnosis, Lum is still bad because let's say you swap into a Hypnosis from like a Bronzong, pop a lum, but can't outright one shot it, then you are dedicating a Lum Berry and still risk being put to sleep the following turn, leading to an excessive amount of work to actually avoid the process even in this instance.
my point there was not to say they aren't valid counterplay, just more to show how i dont see how talking about the counterplay for stopping sleep in the first place is given:
We disagree on this point. I believe that sleep is an uncompetitive part of the meta, since that level of variance it adds that has little to no consistent counterplay when it lands and puts a lot entirely on luck harms the competitive integrity of a given tier. Please give this post a read, because to me your post makes it clear that you are sidestepping my argument about the policy side of banning sleep and how that works and instead just trying to justify your own personal opinion of the benefits of sleep, which is fine, just not what I'm talking about give you originally asked me about complex bans, a policy thing.
I'm going to give an extremely stupid analogy, an OHKO move is broken because it just kills you, there's no counterplay, Ice Beam is really strong but you can outplay it and go into a resistance, not all damaging moves are broken because we don't like OHKO moves, one can barely be outplayed or answered and the other can (but you need to do certain things), then you we assess whether or not those things are reasonable. This is even true although Ice Beam can still obtain OHKOs, wow! It's almost like one-shotting your opponent isn't inherently unhealthy either.
even if this is just a stupid analogy, its also just bad faith and im not going to engage with it as a genuine point as such. The arguments you presented here are not remotely similar and are just falsely comparing two things that have no real connection to each other, and neither truly support the other argument.
These are genuinely similar arguments:
- Sheer Cold vs Ice Beam, both can OHKO u, OHKO is broken ban Ice Beam
- Spore vs. Hypnosis, both can Sleep u, Sleep is broken ban Spore
because both of these are just entirely devoid of the nuance that has lead to the again extremely thought out mods to the game mechanics that sleep caused, which is because regardless of your personal opinion enough people decided that sleep was uncompetitive enough it needed restriction outside of simply banning moves. If you do not believe sleep as a mechanic is strong enough to ban, don't restrict it. If you think that sleep is uncompetitive enough based on the guidelines of the post i sent above regardless of if it applies to all sleep moves, as i said policy and precedent both say that banning all of sleep is the most logical option to move forwards.
I almost didn't respond to this tbh cause it felt really ragebaity but I wanted to give an actual explanation as to why I hold the thoughts I do, because they are based again in the policy of tiering on this site and the precedent of past decisions made from a similar dilemma. Sleep mod was implemented after hypnosis darkrai and hypnosis iron valiant (among other things but from my experience mainly those two) started causing issues and it lead to the decision that sleep as a mechanic was uncompetitive. We have such a robust framework for tiering policy on smogon, and while i understand draft league as a whole functions outside of that I think it is largely irresponsible for smogon draft to function outside of it as well.
my point there was not to say they aren't valid counterplay, just more to show how i dont see how talking about the counterplay for stopping sleep in the first place is given:
We disagree on this point. I believe that sleep is an uncompetitive part of the meta, since that level of variance it adds that has little to no consistent counterplay when it lands and puts a lot entirely on luck harms the competitive integrity of a given tier. Please give this post a read, because to me your post makes it clear that you are sidestepping my argument about the policy side of banning sleep and how that works and instead just trying to justify your own personal opinion of the benefits of sleep, which is fine, just not what I'm talking about give you originally asked me about complex bans, a policy thing.
even if this is just a stupid analogy, its also just bad faith and im not going to engage with it as a genuine point as such. The arguments you presented here are not remotely similar and are just falsely comparing two things that have no real connection to each other, and neither truly support the other argument.
because both of these are just entirely devoid of the nuance that has lead to the again extremely thought out mods to the game mechanics that sleep caused, which is because regardless of your personal opinion enough people decided that sleep was uncompetitive enough it needed restriction outside of simply banning moves. If you do not believe sleep as a mechanic is strong enough to ban, don't restrict it. If you think that sleep is uncompetitive enough based on the guidelines of the post i sent above regardless of if it applies to all sleep moves, as i said policy and precedent both say that banning all of sleep is the most logical option to move forwards.
I almost didn't respond to this tbh cause it felt really ragebaity but I wanted to give an actual explanation as to why I hold the thoughts I do, because they are based again in the policy of tiering on this site and the precedent of past decisions made from a similar dilemma. Sleep mod was implemented after hypnosis darkrai and hypnosis iron valiant (among other things but from my experience mainly those two) started causing issues and it lead to the decision that sleep as a mechanic was uncompetitive. We have such a robust framework for tiering policy on smogon, and while i understand draft league as a whole functions outside of that I think it is largely irresponsible for smogon draft to function outside of it as well.
Uncompetitive - "elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant."
I don't believe Sleep is uncompetitive, I do believe that a subset of sleep moves are in this section, but as a mechanic I think it is not. In draft where you have control over your teambuilding options and can cater to the metagame with counterplay, skill remains relevant in various circumstances when you can actually cater to sleep. There are a specific subsection of sleep inducing moves of which no level of skill can cater to. I believe Sheer Cold is an uncompetitive move because skill does not matter and Ice Beam is a competitive move. It's not really about the actual status condition but the inability to apply skill to avoid being put into the situations altogether. I think Sleep can at best be considered unhealthy. Part of skill includes the preparation process. This is a ban on Sleep-Inducing Moves right? Not sleep, that would ban moves like Rest. Sleep-Inducing moves aren't uncompetitive in a general sense.
Uncompetitive - "elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant."
I don't believe Sleep is uncompetitive, I do believe the subset of sleep moves are in this section, but as a mechanic I think it is not. In draft where you have control over your teambuilding options and can cater to the metagame with counterplay, skill remains relevant in various circumstances when you can actually cater to sleep. There are a specific subsection of sleep inducing moves of which no level of skill can cater to. I believe Sheer Cold is an uncompetitive move because skill does not matter and Ice Beam is a competitive move. It's not really about the actual status condition but the inability to apply skill to avoid being put into the situations altogether. I think Sleep can at best be considered unhealthy.
The moves are status moves, sleep is the status. If you are trying to tell me with a straight face that sleep is not the core factor of why hypnosis is uncompetative (but still claim hypnosis to be uncompetitive) i think you just have a fundamental misinterpretation of how tiering anything outside of individual moves or pokemon is handled. I have made it clear that i am arguing under the assumption that we are adhereing to tiering policy and the precedent the site has for handling scenarios like this since you asked me about a complex ban, and if you arent going to engage with my arguments from that perspective and instead focus on making the same point over and over again im not going to continue to engage with that. I understand that you do not think sleep as a mechanic is worth banning, and my answer to that is and always will be "then nothing will come of it" because thats how the site works.
freeze mod and sleep clause mod arent complex bans and are instead the changing of game mechanics deemed fundamentally uncompetitive after very long periods of discussion. These are not complex bans and you will rarely find them outside of gen 5 ou, a famously unbalanced metagame.
Banning select sleep moves is more complex and also goes against the precendents set in smogons history for how to take action on mechanics like status conditions, weather, etc. This may be draft league, but i believe that draft league under smogon should adhere more closely to smogon policy whenever possible. When we have precedent for modding the game to remove/alter mechanics deemed unhealthy and largely have none for limiting them via more specific bans, again outside of gen 5 ou which shouldnt really be used as a guideline for any tier. That is why i view it as an effective complex ban. Precedent and policy indicates the best way is just to go all or nothing, even if only specific sleep moves are having the MOST unhealthy impact on the game, I believe that still means it is the mechanic as a whole that is the issue and therefore that implementing the sleep moves mod is the best option if action is to be taken beyond sleep clause.
Just because some ways to trigger sleep have more counterplay doesnt make a fair argument for managing something as impactful as sleep, because by that logic lum berry, taunt, sub, mons like Gholdengo and Garganacl are real arguments for keeping hypnosis and sing. You can see how this leads to a lot of arguing about counterplay for the mechanic and delving away from if the mechanic is uncompetative or not, which is what the conversation should be focused on. With a recent example, moody didn't stay legal in Ubers because something like Bidoof was "more competative with more counterplay", it got banned because the variance was too much across the board and deemed uncompetative. That is how things like abilities, weather conditions, etc should be handled, and when we have the precedent for a sleep moves mod needlessly complicating it when the mechanic of sleep itself is fundamentally the issue, is counterintuitive.
I also just want to add this from the lengthy OU tiering policy post that most of the tiering policy on the site is based on (save for like, ubers and thats just for defining the level of uncompetativeness required for a mon/ability etc to be considered bannable). If sleep is going to be banned in any capacity other then full I think an argument needs to be made for why the remaining sleep moves *arent* uncompetitive, and when paytons post clearly highlights the issues with sleep as a status more then hypnosis or sing as a move I think a full sleep ban is the very clear option if action is to be taken, and thats something i support. Sleep as a status is uncompetitive due to the high level of variance it forces into play that can often disrupt the target outcome of "the more skilled player can consistently win". While some sleep moves have more counterplay then others there is not a good justification for trying to keep it in the format based on the "merits" of being able to "play around the luck" per se.
Quite a few of these points are just wrong and are giving Smogon in general too much credit.
1) Sleep clause isn't some complex mod that was made by Smogon. It was made by the development team of Pokemon Stadium, because somehow sleep was more broken in earlier generations. A lot of the functionalities of sleep clause (outside I believe how it interacts with abilities) is directly taken from these games. It is not some original idea that some top players got together and thought through. It is an outdated clause and feature taken from a game developed nearly 30 years ago.
2) Precedent arguments are always stupid. For starters, we already actively go against Smogon "precedent" because it actively makes the game better. Take both Greninja in ORAS/USUM and Cinderace in SWSH as examples. Both of these Pokémon are incredibly valued for the speed they provide their respective tiers and are pretty much impossible to replace in those respective metagames, however, both require complex bans to even be legal. Darkrai should be viewed in a similar lens; where it is an incredibly healthy addition to the metagame outside of its potential to use sleep moves. Also, to further dive into this point, you should actually consider why "precedents" exist in Smogon in the first place - to prevent tier leaders from going rogue and destroying their tier. It is actively unhealthy to use that same mindset to a completely different game that Draft League is. We have completely different players to help with making sure the tier is healthy and do not need to rely on silly little precedents to ensure that reality.
3) If I was given the choice between banning sleep entirely or not at all I would obviously ban sleep entirely. However, that is not what most players want, and in respect to everyone's opinions on sleep, most people would agree that Hypnosis and inevitably Dark Void are unhealthy moves on Darkrai and should be banned. Call it controversial, but I think making any amount of progress in improving the game is better than making literally none because we are being stubborn about precedent.
1) Sleep clause isn't some complex mod that was made by Smogon. It was made by the development team of Pokemon Stadium, because somehow sleep was more broken in earlier generations. A lot of the functionalities of sleep clause (outside I believe how it interacts with abilities) is directly taken from these games. It is not some original idea that some top players got together and thought through. It is an outdated clause and feature taken from a game developed nearly 30 years ago.
Take both Greninja in ORAS/USUM and Cinderace in SWSH as examples. Both of these Pokémon are incredibly valued for the speed they provide their respective tiers and are pretty much impossible to replace in those respective metagames, however, both require complex bans to even be legal.
Im aware i am a stickler for policy but there is also clear stuff written in that if a complex ban is more beneficial then an outright ban it can and should be presented, draft players generally agreeing on those two for example does not go against policy or precedent, as it sits in line with how i said I think complexes should be handled (avoided unless then have a demonstrably positive effect on the meta)
3) If I was given the choice between banning sleep entirely or not at all I would obviously ban sleep entirely. However, that is not what most players want, and in respect to everyone's opinions on sleep, most people would agree that Hypnosis and inevitably Dark Void are unhealthy moves on Darkrai and should be banned. Call it controversial, but I think making any amount of progress in improving the game is better than making literally none because we are being stubborn about precedent.
again fair, i just have a different perspective on how this should be handled and think that sleep mod is a much better approach and a much more feasible one to implement. If your proposal gets enough support behind it to go through i wouldnt complain but i really do think that sleep mod is a flat out better option both from a player and policy perspective, as I think I've made it clear enough that I do also like your suggestion, just for me as a midway point to and endgoal and not an endgoal itself.
but while I agree with Payton's post to an extent I'm much more in favour of at the very least SV Regional Dex tours adopting a total sleep ban as opposed to just banning a few moves.
just putting that as confirmation lol, I'm very interested to see where this discussion ends up in the long run cause i think more action on sleep then already exists is long overdue in draft.
Take both Greninja in ORAS/USUM and Cinderace in SWSH as examples. Both of these Pokémon are incredibly valued for the speed they provide their respective tiers and are pretty much impossible to replace in those respective metagames, however, both require complex bans to even be legal.
FYI these are grandfathered in, as is Blaze Blaziken and No Seismic Toss Mega Kangaskhan (which will be returning to the SM board for DCL after internal discussion). We have 0 interest in undoing years of metagame development in old gens for the sake of fitting within the rules - they should not be seen as the gold standard for any future tiering decisions. Precedent from old gens is inherently going to be flawed for draft in the same way that it is for ADV OU within Smogon's tiering architecture and just because complex bans are common place in old gens (I'm aware you're not arguing for a Hypnosis on Darkrai ban), using similar logic shouldn't be true in SV.
Smogon Discord Draft League II Champion - Victory Post
Not sure who to credit for the art unfortunately, "II" added by me
In June 2023, I found out about the Smogon Discord Draft League, a Smogon-adjacent tournament run via the Smogon Discord server. This was my first ever draft tournament and fourth ever tournament. I had watched draft content for many years, and it seemed like a fun format to try out given my natural affinity for teambuilding.
After my best tournament record to date with a 12-0 in the first edition of this tournament and my first tournament victory, I could not get enough of draft, and I was scouted by apologies and gorex to play in the Teal Mask Trios tour. We won the tournament with a personal record of 7-1.
This April, I saw that the second edition of this tournament was starting up, but I was pretty on the fence for signing up since I had progressed so much in two years and was no longer a newbie in draft. I had three motivators pushing me to sign up: (1) Prove my skill in the tier after not getting drafted for DPL, (2) Defend the crown, and mostly (3) Not signing up soon enough for Spring Seasonal and wanting to get my reps in.
Tournament Structure
The tournament started off with pools, where anyone with a 2-1 or 3-0 record would move on to the next round. From there, it was single elimination. There were 96 people participating in the tournament. While less than the 128 people in the previous edition, it had stronger players participating with a more balanced pricing system. You have 125 points to draft 8 Pokemon, and 28 points for 2-3 Tera captains.
My Draft
Points
Sprite
Pokemon
Usage (of 9 games)
18
Palafin
9
19
Raging Bolt (T)
9
10
Corviknight
8
13
Weavile
9
7
Amoonguss
5
9
Infernape (T)
6
5
Mudsdale
2
9
Gardevoir
6
I will go over why I chose each of these Pokemon in order (I was 7th pick of a pool of 8 players):
I won this tournament last year with Palafin, and I thought it would be fun to pick it up again. Bulky Water with phenomenal revenge killing, wallbreaking, and setup, plus I am really good at using the dolphin so I wanted to show it off. I considered waiting round 2 for it in place of Tera Tornadus-Therian to form a safe Regenerator pivot and speed control, but surely it will fall with only two picks on the wheel...
8th person picked up Tornadus. RIP. But Torn is a Pokemon I have already used in draft, whereas Raging Bolt is not, so I wanted to try out the hard-hitting priority combo. Tera Raging Bolt is a nightmare to prepare for, and these two picks work well to form both a priority and a Volt-Turn core.
After planning out my draft, I knew the next two Pokemon I wanted, and Corviknight was more likely to be sniped, so I picked it up first. Corviknight covers the team's need for hazard removal and a sturdy Ground immunity for Bolt. I usually avoid Corviknight in draft due to its one-dimensionality and relatively passive role, but the typing and bulk make it a key resistance to many of the tier's threats, and it provided me with a safe form of slow pivoting.
Weavile was the next pick for me, and it felt like the best pick I made. Amazing speed control, item removal, priority, and Ice attacks to punish/deter Tera Grass that opponents would use into Palafin + Bolt. At the time, I really enjoyed using Weavile + Bolt in OU, and it translated over well here too. While Weavile and Corviknight are both pretty one-dimensional, I did not mind it with Weavile because its kit is perfect and it looked incredible into every matchup without Alomomola or some other super physically bulky wall. Part of it was also for fun since I now had a triple priority core.
I needed a grounded Poison, and I am a strong proponent of the idea that Palafin should be paired with a Regenerator user to make Hero activation feel seamless. Grass/Poison is a nice defensive typing for the ogers, and it would slightly punish the common Water and Grass Teras.
Infernape is pretty weak, but it filled roles the team needed. I am currently lacking any hazards which is terrible, and Infernape plus another rocker makes it bearable. It hit 9 points, making it a viable secondary Tera captain. It bridged the speed gap between Weavile and Palafin, the latter of which often does not go Jolly most of the time. It completed the FWG core, and it gave me a fast pivot and a potential scarf user. Most importantly, it gave my team aura with the quad priority.
Mudsdale gave me an Electric immunity, though in hindsight it was not too necessary given Raging Bolt and Amoonguss are strong enough against Electric-types and I can beat an opposing Volt-Turn core. However, it was important as a solid second rocker for when hazards felt necessary, and its natural bulk was very appreciated in some matchups.
Last but not least, Gardevoir gave the team a mid-speed threat between Palafin and Bolt. Its strong STAB Moonblast and wide movepool let it function in a variety of ways, and it rounded out the team nicely.
Weekly Matchups & My Sets
I did my best to provide as much insight about my teambuilding process and gameplay; if you are curious, feel free to read them!
In an ideal world, Calm Mind Raging Bolt and Bulk Up + Taunt Palafin just sweep the team, but Tera Scream Tail can easily come in, sponge the hit, and Encore me. I decide to combat this with Discharge Raging Bolt and Mental Herb Palafin, the former of which can play the slow game and fish for paras until Scream Tail get paralyzed then 1v1, and the latter which can bail me out one time and get an extra Bulk Up if necessary. Urshifu could also overwhelm Amoonguss and be a threat to my team if he exhausts Tera, so I went with double Rocky Helmet physical walls to handle Urshifu and Baxcalibur. I knew I wanted to bring the top 5, and I went with Infernape last since it checks Volcarona once to put it in range or revenge killing, gives me Stealth Rock against his team without removal, and Fire + Electric hits everything for significant damage. Tera Water was my choice on Raging Bolt as it helps against Volcarona, Baxcalibur, and Urshifu, and Leftovers give me great longevity against his bulky team.
I played the game slow to scout his sets and spreads. I eventually got the paralysis on Scream Tail, and feeling pressured by the +1 Raging Bolt, he decided to use Tera. This plus finding out his Alomomola didn't have Scald allowed me to play for the Palafin sweep, and it worked out well.
This team has a mix of strong defense and strong wallbreakers. Urshifu Single Strike is a bit scarier since I cannot punish it as easily with Rocky Helmet, but that also means he is less likely to bring Protective Pads or Punching Glove, so double helmet still seemed pretty good here to punish Urshifu and pivot moves from Corviknight and Vaporeon. Fire-types are quite difficult to handle defensively for my team, as my main defensive Pokemon are Corviknight and Amoonguss, and with Tera I could easily fall apart to the right Iron Moth set. I expected Tera Fairy/Grass Moth and Tera Water Corviknight. Clefable can run Unaware here pretty easily due to my lack of hazards, making setup sweepers less viable. Vaporeon and Sinistcha take on Palafin really well, but I had one move to punish them both: Acrobatics. Paired with a Sitrus Berry, I could get a sweep once the team has been weakened and Tera has been exhausted. Adamant allows me to still break Unaware Clefable. I noticed that his Electric resist is Thundurus-Therian, meaning Tera Electric Raging Bolt farms his team once I use Draco Meteor on the Thundurus switch-in. Gardevoir felt great here as a disturber with Psychic Noise and Trick, while Mystical Fire hits Corviknight and weakens Iron Moth in a pinch. Trace also lets me pick up Volt Absorb from Thundurus or Water Absorb from Vaporeon, making it a decent check.
The opponent did not play too well to start, giving me a solid advantage. With that being said, turn 27 was a total misplay, as I should always use Acrobatics there since it does more damage to Clefable anyways and catches the Vaporeon switch. It made the game closer than it needed to be. Fortunately, the prep was good enough to offset this.
I have an extremely bad matchup into sun, as my only real answer for it is a well-played Raging Bolt. Palafin can eat hits, but Water moves won't hit hard enough to break or revenge kill. Gardevoir cannot even trace Protosynthesis, making prep pretty miserable. Since everything breaks Corviknight and Amoonguss checks Great Tusk well enough, I decide to bench it for the week. Specially defensive Palafin with Substitute + Bulk Up lets me scout for switch-ins and either go for damage or get a boost of some sort; either way, it can help stall a turn of sun and gives me some way of not auto losing to Walking Wake. Tera Fairy Raging Bolt was best here to remove most of my weaknesses and cause mind games with opposing Raging Bolt; Tera Blast was a good click into his team too. Rain Dance Amoonguss felt like my only bail against sun, and I had to think heavily about the lead game. I decided to lead Amoonguss and use Rain Dance if Torkoal leads, Sludge Bomb if Ogerpon leads since I can eat a non-crit Ivy Cudgel once, or Spore against any other lead. Screens HWish Gardevoir was an emergency check against threats if I got the opportunity to get them up. Tera Fighting Black Belt Infernape with Mach Punch was the cleaner in the late game if I got screens up, as there are no Fighting resists on his team. I had to play excellently to win this.
Honestly, I played the game extremely well for most of the game. I got my turns right, Amoonguss controlled the weather just long enough to take down Torkoal, and by Turn 25, I was up in sacks with only 1 turn of sun left. Unfortunately, I am an idiot and misread the tera types. I thought that Raging Bolt was Tera Water when it was actually Tera Grass, so I didn't bother double-checking given I was already locked for next round with 2-0. I should have sacked Raging Bolt, gone into Amoonguss like I did, Grass Knot on turn 26 like I did, click Sludge Bomb on turn 27, and spam Grass Knot until I died since Draco Meteor likely means no Calm Mind. Looking back now, this win path was a lot harder to find and pretty unlikely to succeed. Assuming he made the same play on turn 28, I would have favorable odds to win since Amoonguss would OHKO the incoming Great Tusk, and I can OHKO most Raging Bolt spreads with Adamant Weavile assuming I land all three Triple Axel hits. However, there was a 50-50 that turn; if I stay in on his Draco Meteor, he can Volt Switch the next turn on my Weavile which lets him always bring in Great Tusk safely since +2 Adamant Weavile Ice Shard has to get a high roll crit to take it out while Jolly HLR is a 93.8% chance to OHKO (and I would not be surprised if he was Adamant). Similarly, if I hard switch on a second Draco Meteor, I can eat the hit and immediately Triple Axel to OHKO either Pokemon. Even then, it's a 50-50, but he has a safer path. If he sacks Raging Bolt, I sack Weavile the next turn and win with Amoonguss barring crit. If he sacks Great Tusk, then there's another 50-50 with if he Thunderclaps or not on my Ice Shard or Triple Axel, as Ice Shard is a 2HKO unless he's really bulky.
Ok I am done analyzing this game, TL;DR his team was so good and even though I made a mistake in the end, my odds of winning were still really slim assuming he played well. Fun game analysis, only loss I have taken in both these seasons combined so props to NateAim.
After losing last game, I had no more wiggle room for error. Luckily, my matchup is excellent this game; I have Corviknight and Amoonguss for Iron Valiant, Raging Bolt and Amoonguss for Ogerpon, and Corviknight for Landorus defensively. Offensively, Palafin is pretty solid at breaking his team and revenge killing Iron Valiant, while Raging Bolt can be a pain if I can play around Landorus and Encore Jirachi. CB Palafin felt pretty solid here, as a well-timed Zen Headbutt can heavily chunk Ogerpon and OHKO Tentacruel while Jet Punch keeps Iron Valiant in check. I wasn't too sure on Raging Bolt's item, but I decided that Eject Pack would be a cool bring as a one-time free Draco Meteor; either I smack Landorus for heavy damage to enable a sweep later, or they predict it and tank the hit, but I keep momentum up. Amoonguss has Stomping Tantrum for Jirachi and Tentacruel, and Foul Play for SD Tera Ogerpon which can be tricky to revenge kill. Mixed Scarf Infernape seemed to be a good pivot that could chunk most of his Pokemon. Icicle Crash could be afforded on Weavile since there were no relevant calcs to prove Triple Axel to be better. Both Pokemon are Tera Grass since he struggles to punish it offensively.
While some things benefited me like Tera Poison Hoopa and passive plays with Iron Valiant, I still felt really good about my prep. Most of my techs hit, and I had a very solid victory.
Hazard stack and Gholdengo is not a combination this team enjoys seeing. With Corviknight's Defog as my only form of hazard removal, I have to be very proactive about delaying hazard setup as long as possible. Outside of hazards and Gholdengo, the matchup is pretty tolerable. My defensive core is able to handle the offensive Pokemon well, and my offensive core can break quite well. Much like with the previous Clefable, I went with a max attack Bulk Up set to handle Unaware. Punching Glove helps against Garchomp and Rocky Helmet users. I found Booster Energy Raging Bolt to finally be strong here for breaking Clefable, but I also put Taunt over Thunderclap. The only Pokemon I thought about being able to hit with Thunderclap were Gholdengo and Ogerpon, and they can both outplay with Recover and Nasty Plot or Encore and Swords Dance. Taunt also enabled me to comfortably 1v1 all Clefable sets even if booster is used up. Light Screen Corviknight was pretty solid here to more safely pivot around Gholdengo and allow for more setup opportunities. Gardevoir with its Psychic Noise was effective here for his defensive core as well as checking Pokemon like Thundurus. I got to bring Mudsdale off the bench this week, as Earthquake hits their team pretty hard and the coverage moves can handle its checks well. AV Mudsdale also handles Gholdengo decently well while not being passive. Tera Grass Raging Bolt is hard for the opponent to hit and flips the Ground weakness against Garchomp.
For some reason, Tauros completely slipped my mind when prepping, so I had to adapt on the fly with Gardevoir being the status absorber and tracing Intimidate to keep it at bay. Thunder Wave Gholdengo was pretty painful to deal with, but luckily I did not get unlucky and was able to handle it. I don't believe I played the game too well, but I had some good turns like turn 10 where I Heavy Slammed into the incoming Ogerpon for major damage or most of the turns with Gardevoir. Luckily, Raging Bolt was able to clean up in the endgame. I had fun managing him in another tournament, so this was a cool full-circle moment for me.
Tera Landorus was pretty good in this matchup as it could be an offensive threat with Tera Electric or a defensive rocker with Tera Water. Greninja can be a breaker or a late-game sweeper if he can chunk my Palafin and Raging Bolt. Ceruledge can break my defensive core and clean up in the endgame if he gets my Pokemon in range of +2 Shadow Sneak. Our defensive core is somewhat mirrored with Corviknight, Amoonguss, and Psychic/Fairy type, and Scream Tail can make sweeping with Raging Bolt difficult while healing the bulky teammates. Acrobatics Sitrus was good here to hit Amoonguss and Greninja in a pinch. AV Fairy Raging Bolt with max defense was a pretty cool bring by me, as it ensured I could handle Greninja while sponging hits and not worrying about Encore. Tera Blast enabled me to break a bulky Iron Hands, too. Safety Goggles Corviknight completely blanks Amoonguss, so that seemed like a strong bring here, similar to how SandanLP brought Safety Goggles Skarmory for my Amoonguss. LO Weavile was pretty cool here too, as the extra damage mattered in several calcs like Iron Hands, Scream Tail, and Corviknight. Lead Infernape with Air Balloon looked good to trade hazards with, as I felt like Stealth Rock would go a longer way for me than him. Tera Water is an emergency check to Greninja, but I never planned to use it.
This game was pretty straightforward, but there are some parts I want to highlight as good or bad. Turn 7 was a tough play for me, as I knew by coming back in that he was Custap and wanted to preserve health on Raging Bolt, but I could not risk going into Gardevoir because I would die from Supercell Slam. Turn 8-9 was strong by me, as I immediately denied the Scream Tail sweep from happening, knowing that my scarf was not needed for the others. Turn 21 I think I had a brainfart and forgot he was Choice Scarf for a second, as I should always Ice Shard to guarantee the win. The odds were still near 100%, as he had to crit burn Raging Bolt without Discharge para into crit Corviknight, but leaving that potential winpath available was a small mistake.
GoldenCyber's team is a nightmare. Tera Hydrapple is worth 13 points in this league, and when paired with Tera Gliscor, they are a huge pain. Hydrapple and Alomomola are also some of the best checks to Palafin in the game, so having both would prove challenging to overcome. Terapagos can always eat a hit and get healed back up by Wish from either Jirachi or Alomomola, making it a big threat. Luckily, specially defensive Corviknight is a solid check against most of his Pokemon. His big sweepers are both hit supereffectively by Fighting, so Vacuum Wave Infernape was a solid bring here to also circumvent the physical walls that are Hydrapple and Alomomola. Red Card Raging Bolt was a fun tech, as I can always safely click Thunderclap into Battle Bond Greninja to force it out as well as win the Calm Mind war against Terapagos. Palafin was really tough to decide the set, as I considered Sub BU sets but they never can take down Hydrapple. I have used Specs Palafin a couple times before, but even that did not feel too good here as no single move is particularly spammable. Throat Spray Palafin seemed like the best bring here to bait in and overwhelm the tanks on his team. Boomburst, Surf, and Ice Beam were all the coverage I needed, so I racked my brain with ideas until I settled on Focus Energy, which enables me to break specially defensive WishTect Jirachi while nearly guaranteeing the OHKO on Hydrapple if he decides to rotate in and out for Regenerator healing in a sack war end game. Substitute on Weavile was to defend against Scald Mola, since the sub can survive. I really struggled to decide my last bring, as I originally had Amoonguss with Worry Seed for the Gliscor and Red Card (which later transferred to Raging Bolt), but 4MSS hit hard and I could not find a way to avoid getting walled by something on his team. While I usually figure things out on my own, I consulted my friend UselessUmbreon, and he suggested specially defensive Gardevoir since it can trace Regenerator and stay healthy. While I steered pretty far from that path, double Regenerator was something I could abuse since I can take hits from his regen mons pretty well and threaten back hard. After some deliberation, I settled on Life Orb with Shadow Ball to hit specially defensive Jirachi (recoil doesn't matter since I can heal up with regen), Thunder Wave to slow down Jirachi and limit Encore opportunities later in the game, and Calm Mind to eat a special hit from a pivot and/or take it down after.
This was a fun, close game. I did not think Amoonguss would be Play Rough, so the early game was a bit scuffed since I did not get much mileage out of Weavile. However, I played Gardevoir very aggressively, which brought me back with an advantage; the special attack drop on Hydrapple sped the process up though, leaving me with less room to predict wrong. Palafin would have swept, but I got a low roll on Terapagos turn 27. Still, the damage was done, and Raging Bolt had the game locked up. Volt Switch luckily always killed at the end against Hydrapple. This was a pretty big win for me given how strong GoldenCyber's team was and how he is a competent draft player.
Only two games left to win the tournament at this point, and I get hit with another strong player in Harv. This matchup seemed somewhat in my favor, as his only Electric immunity is Gligar which is a bad bring into everything else on my team, and his Palafin resists aren't really apparent either. CB Palafin can break through and revenge kill everything, and choice-locked Electric Raging Bolt seemed extremely free. I originally leaned Choice Specs for added breaking power, but Choice Scarf felt better as a strong pivot against his whole team since Pecharunt can Parting Shot and neutralize my specs boost while other Pokemon would be able to attack first and break Bolt down. Clear Amulet Corviknight completely blanks standard Pecharunt, so he can only break with Nasty Plot or have to hard switch every time he anticipates me to bring the bird in. Since nothing on his team can freely run Safety Goggles, I decided that lead Amoonguss with Red Card Spore could be annoying into him most of the time. Scarf Infernape looked like a solid pivot as well as revenge killer for Terapagos and Scarf Tera Grass Delphox, which completely blows me away if Raging Bolt is weakened and had a real shot of coming imo. Tera Steel soft checks Tornadus, Terapagos, Pecharunt, and Ogerpon in a pinch.
AV Torn was a cool bring by Harv as it made Raging Bolt less oppressive, though I think Tera Electric would have been better here to overwhelm Palafin and Corviknight while sponging hits from Raging Bolt. No Delphox was also a happy sight for me, since I was genuinely pretty worried about it. Sporing Pecharunt was really good for opening up Palafin and letting me switch freely in general. Even with AV protection, Raging Bolt was still able to out-damage Regenerator's healing and keep Torn a decent chunk below full health. Turn 30 was a pivotal turn, as the game was pretty close and I needed to figure out how to secure the win. Palafin cannot kill Terapagos with Jet Punch, and since his turtle is Modest, a high roll would kill me. I am then forced to bring in Infernape, and the game turns into a 50-50 on whether I use CC or Blitz into his Terapagos or Tornadus; Blitz is not safe since I die to the recoil damage and Terapagos can take down Corv. Luckily, I found a much higher odds winpath. Bringing in Infernape immediately seems like a 50-50 still on the surface, but Close Combat is always a safe click. Even when he brings in Tornadus, I clicked CC again. This allowed me to Wave Crash for pretty much freely since he never kills with his moves barring a crit, and Wave Crash can always kill Terapagos, plus I can switch out if he sacks Terapagos and always kill with Jet Punch thanks to the extra damage...is what I thought at the time. I only made the odds around double better, since I force a 50-50 with Jet Punch/Wave Crash, and he would have to land Bleakwind and speed drop me to win. Regardless, I think that was the best odds for me to win, and it worked out.
Last but not least, I face SamueltheStrong in the finals. While not a known name, he had a 7-0 or 7-1 record by this point like me, and he had beaten Nashrock and their menacing team last round, so I couldn't take it lightly at all. Again, I am forced to face down Garchomp + Gholdengo, which made prep a little faster but also was still a pain to deal with, especially with Kleavor being pretty strong into most of my team and allowing Garchomp to be versatile in its role. Garchomp and Zapdos together encouraged me to bring Protective Pads Palafin, but I still liked the offensive investment and access to Wave Crash to break through the team and revenge kill Greninja and scarf users. Steel Bolt let me eat hits comfortably and gain more setup opportunities, and Shuca felt like the perfect pairing to catch Garchomp off guard and take it down while also preventing a sweep from dying right away. Amoonguss and Infernape seemed pretty trash here, but I still wanted Stealth Rock for his poor removal and a means to check Gholdengo and Zapdos, so I went with specially defensive Mudsdale with Smack Down to give me free Earthquakes, which hits his entire team hard. Gardevoir is critical here to get a Healing Wish off on Palafin or Raging Bolt while also chipping his team down and giving potential setup opportunities with Mystical Fire. Time to defend the crown.
Spidops over Kleavor surprised me, but after how painful Sticky Web was to maneuver around, I could see why he valued webs over rocks. While a difficult play to make, I think I should have always used Earthquake on Turn 4 instead of getting rocks up, as getting them up was not as beneficial as potentially knocking Gholdengo out or putting it in range of my priority moves. +1 Gholdengo was difficult to play around without sacking pieces, but I had an out in Raging Bolt who could set up a Calm Mind on Turn 6 and always live the Shadow Ball on Turn 7 while having a very high or guaranteed odds to OHKO with Thunderbolt depending on the defensive EVs. Unfortunately, he gets the critical hit and completely screws me, as I lost one of my best Pokemon for zero damage when I could have fully healed it up later with Gardevoir. Since I was so far behind, I had to play extremely aggressively and make assumptions. Turn 8, I had to hope he would be slower than 258 speed and click Shadow Ball to preserve, so I went for Mystical Fire, outsped, and lived Shadow Ball. Next turn, he brings in Blastoise which is completely fine since I knew going into the game that it would be my Palafin activation fodder. Other turns were fine until Turn 15 when he takes 40% on Greninja for no reason. I get another strong U-turn on Turn 18 since I knew I would always live Tera Blast with my full special defensive investment. In thirteen turns, I turned a near-unrecoverable 4v6 into a pretty favorable 4v3 thanks to aggressive plays from me, passive plays from him, and strong prep. I would have used Swords Dance on Greninja during Turn 19 and won in most cases, but his Blastoise was completely max defense, so I could not kill with +2 Knock Off and had to be careful. I actually still would have likely lost if he Flip Turned on my Gardevoir on Turn 20; I should always make the safer play there and pivot into Corviknight then U-turn or sack, but I liked being up in the sack war and I read him to Body Press that turn. Once I got the necessary damage on Blastoise with Moonblast, the game was pretty much over since Weavile cleans house. I had to fight hard for this win, and it paid off.
Final Thoughts
20-1 record across these two editions of the tournament. Back-to-back champion. 4-0 in finals, 4 chips to my name. The winning continues.
With that being said, I still vividly remember how ecstatic I felt after winning this tournament in 2023. It was my first draft tournament and fourth tournament I had participated in, and I was a complete underdog with many people assuming I was an alt for how well I had been performing given my short Smogon profile existence. Then I continued to win important games, improve my play, and earn my reputation as the "giant slayer" by beating Empo, Vert, mind gaming, JJ09LIE, and other highly regarded players. I have proven that I can consistently keep up with anybody in any tier, so now it's time to earn the accolades to show that I am just as good, if not better, than those players. This victory is yet another step in the right direction, and I am proud of my consistency.
Draft will always have a special place in my heart, and truthfully it's been the only thing keeping me invested in Pokemon lately. Thank you to everyone who was involved in this tournament as well as those I've played against and alongside throughout the past few years! God bless.
