This is something I have been thinking about for a very long time. It took me a while (over a year) to gather my thoughts and lay out a plan for it, but I'm ready to lay it out now, so here it is:
It's no secret that ADV was the worst-tiered generation when it comes to lower tiers. Smogon was still new when ADV was current-gen, and so a lot of strange, unnecessary rules were created that ended up locking out around three times the number of viable Pokémon that probably should've been allowed in UU. While that isn't necessarily an "issue", the metagame was believed to be overwhelmingly stale about 3-4 years ago, and we looked back at this archaic way of tiering as a potential solution to liven up our metagame.
Over the past few years, I've been part of a group effort to revisit ADV UU, and the goal was not to explicitly re-tier the tier but rather to make a more engaging ADV UU through some re-tiering of the mis-tiering from back in the day. We've managed to get rid of the NFE clause (which was always dumb), and freed a few key Pokémon like Arcanine (a major addition), Jumpluff (more nominal), and Lapras (slightly controversial). We also banned Baton Pass and Arena Trap (which allowed Ninjask to also also drop, a niche but sometimes useful addition). We also got rid of Linoone, a mon that a lot of players believed was harming the overall enjoyment and development of the tier (I disagreed but that's ok, it's about what the players want and voted for).
But despite these changes, the method we've used has been criticized pretty harshly and often. Some say it’s just band-aid treatment, not a real fix. For a while, I didn’t really care about the critics. Mostly because they didn't really understand the goal, which was not to re-tier but rather to re-engage. However, more fair criticisms were made at how ad hoc and preferential some of this seemed. Why are we dropping Arcanine first and foremeost, for example, when something like Jumpluff and Ninjask are significantly weaker? Why is my mans Kadabra locked up when it gets OHKOd by no-Att invest Kang? To some, it felt like we were picking and choosing what we wanted. And, to an extent, they were correct. But the people actually playing the metagame wanted these changes this way. Why would we listen to people who don’t even touch the tier telling us we’re doing it wrong?
Well, it seems that times do indeed change. And over the years, even among ADV UU players, opinions have shifted. Many who supported this incremental experiment now think it wasn’t enough. And, I've tried experimenting with multiple drop combinations in different tours to see if this was sustainable and, quite frankly, it isn't. To truly fix ADV UU—and by extension, all ADV lower tiers—we need to start over. Do a full drop. A total re-do. And it doesn’t stop at UU. NU is only semi-official and created from UU usage plus leftovers. And RU, PU, ZU are just VR-based extensions of UU or NU. If we do this right, and re-tier UU and NU, the rest will naturally fall into place.
The problem is, this isn’t simple. It’s not quick. And right now, I don’t think the community has the energy to do it. It’ll take work and it'll take years and a lot of ambition. But I do believe this is the correct way forward. And when the time comes—whether that’s soon or later—this is the plan I propose:
Step 1: Define what is droppable
There are really only six Pokémon that need discussion when it comes to a full drop:
Step 2: Full drop to UU, timed right after a UUPL
Once we know what we’re dropping, we do a full drop into UU—ideally right after a UUPL ends. That gives us time before the next one to actually sort through the chaos. People can test the new meta in tours like ADV PL (tho unlikely as it happens right around UUPL time), ALT PL (if it's still around), and whatever UU side tour is running that year. But we’ll need more than that…
Step 3: Ladder tour with prize money to incentivize testing
We’ll need cooperation from PS staff to allow us to host an ADV UU ladder tour with all the drops. Then, run a 4-week ladder tour with a money prize, leading into a standard ladder tour playoffs. That’s the best way to get people grinding and exploring the new tier. It doesn’t need to be massive activity, just good enough by RoA or low-tier standards. Saving the usage stats for this could be nice, but I don't think we should really use the usage stats for anything based on this first chaotic segment. The playoffs ones would maybe be more useful.
Step 4: First ban slate – Clean house
After the ladder tour ends (and maybe some overlap with team tours), we vote to clean up the most broken stuff. Expect at least 5–6 Pokémon on the slate, maybe a lot more. Voters should be top ladder tour performers (anyone who qualled probably) and anyone with the usually accepted record in team tours with the drops.
Step 5: Team tours + another vote before next UUPL
Now the tier is cleaner. Let it settle in team tours. Additionally, run a small double-elim ADV UU singles tour (or a large one depending on signups). Then, 3 weeks before UUPL starts, hold another vote to handle any remaining problem Pokémon. I expect there will be another chunk of mons on that slate, though not nearly as much as the first slate. The voters for this slate could be semifinalists of the double-elim tour, plus the usual team tour records players (and, if you'd like, the ladder tour holdovers anyways). This wraps up just in time for the tier to show off what it's made of for UUPL.
Step 6: New ADV UU hits UUPL (and ADV PL)
We now get our first real test: the new, cleaned-up ADV UU gets played in UUPL and ADV PL. You can hold one final slate if necessary after UUPL and ADV PL end, but I wouldn't expect it to be more than 1-2 mons if any. After this point, tiering continues as usual, based on PR topics and community input. The hard part is over, and it's all about maintenance at this point.
Step 7: Update ADV UU Viability Rankings
Just standard maintenance, but essential. We can’t move on to NU until the new UU VRs are in place (not because NU is a VR tier (it's not), but because, well, you'll see). Please note that, if for some reason, the slate after UUPL/ADV PL was larger than expected, this step may have to be delayed if the metagame is too different to allow a more accurate VR. I don't expect this to happen though so long as we handled everything prior to this efficiently.
Step 8: Drop unviables from UU into NU; vote after NUPL
Now we work on NU. This is easier than UU. Take the Pokémon that are technically UU by usage but completely unranked on the new VRs (i.e., D-rank and below, no viability). Drop them into NU. This is ok to do, because the way the modern ADV NU was created was very similar to this - it was usage based partially, in addition to pulling some mons from UU to round out the tier. After a full cycle of tours (NUPL, ADV PL, etc.), hold a vote to confirm which ones belong (all of the drops should be on the slate).
It should be understood that the goal of adding these mons to NU is not to simply drop in whatever is not UU. Ultimately, the drops should be looked at to make ADV NU a better overall experience. As such, when the voting happens, these drops should be judged on whether they enhance the tier—not just allowed in for the sake of it.
Step 8a: Update RU from new UU VRs
RU is VR-based, so we just update it alongside the UU VRs. The ADV RU community can hold their own banslates/votes as needed if something is problematic. ADV RU frequently has many tours running, so it should be easy to tier as needed to handle actionable mons.
Step 9: Play new NU, update its VRs
After the vote slate wraps up, NU enters a new cycle of tours. Once those wrap up, update the NU Viability Rankings.
Step 10: Re-tier PU based on NU VRs
PU is also VR-based. So once NU’s VRs are ready, re-tier PU accordingly. As with RU, the PU community can hold votes on banning pokemon if necessary, but this really just goes without saying as that's standard tiering.
Step 11: Re-tier ZU
Same as PU. Once PU is cleaned up, ZU updates naturally.
This whole process will take around 2-3 years to complete. That’s a big commitment. But realistically? We’ve already spent years tweaking ADV UU just to drop four Pokémon. This would be a far better use of that time. Please understand that this is not a step backwards. We did make progress in what we've already done, and should be proud of that. Not just for what it's done to ADV, but how other tiers have looked at it as inspiration for potentially changing things of their won. But to fully make ADV lower tiers into what they should be, we have to eventually go all the way.
I’m not saying we’re ready right now. I wrote this so that when the moment does come, and when the community has the time, people, and motivation, we have a blueprint (which btw can be modified, I wrote the whole thing but that doesn't mean someone can't tweak it to make it better later on). If I’m still around, I’ll help. If I’m not, I hope this gives the next Johnny ADV Tier Hero something solid to work from.
Here is a TLDR/Summary in case you aint reading all of that:
ADV UU has been incrementally changed over the past few years, but the process has been criticized as inconsistent and incomplete. To fully fix ADV lower tiers, this plan proposes a full drop of all eligible Pokémon into UU, followed by a structured re-tiering process spanning several steps: a post-UUPL drop, a prize-backed ladder tour, multiple ban slates, and gradual redefinition of NU, RU, PU, and ZU based on viability and usage. This will take ~2–3 years but result in a cleaner, more honest set of ADV lower tiers. While the community may not be ready today, this framework provides a clear path forward when the time comes.
It's no secret that ADV was the worst-tiered generation when it comes to lower tiers. Smogon was still new when ADV was current-gen, and so a lot of strange, unnecessary rules were created that ended up locking out around three times the number of viable Pokémon that probably should've been allowed in UU. While that isn't necessarily an "issue", the metagame was believed to be overwhelmingly stale about 3-4 years ago, and we looked back at this archaic way of tiering as a potential solution to liven up our metagame.
Over the past few years, I've been part of a group effort to revisit ADV UU, and the goal was not to explicitly re-tier the tier but rather to make a more engaging ADV UU through some re-tiering of the mis-tiering from back in the day. We've managed to get rid of the NFE clause (which was always dumb), and freed a few key Pokémon like Arcanine (a major addition), Jumpluff (more nominal), and Lapras (slightly controversial). We also banned Baton Pass and Arena Trap (which allowed Ninjask to also also drop, a niche but sometimes useful addition). We also got rid of Linoone, a mon that a lot of players believed was harming the overall enjoyment and development of the tier (I disagreed but that's ok, it's about what the players want and voted for).
But despite these changes, the method we've used has been criticized pretty harshly and often. Some say it’s just band-aid treatment, not a real fix. For a while, I didn’t really care about the critics. Mostly because they didn't really understand the goal, which was not to re-tier but rather to re-engage. However, more fair criticisms were made at how ad hoc and preferential some of this seemed. Why are we dropping Arcanine first and foremeost, for example, when something like Jumpluff and Ninjask are significantly weaker? Why is my mans Kadabra locked up when it gets OHKOd by no-Att invest Kang? To some, it felt like we were picking and choosing what we wanted. And, to an extent, they were correct. But the people actually playing the metagame wanted these changes this way. Why would we listen to people who don’t even touch the tier telling us we’re doing it wrong?
Well, it seems that times do indeed change. And over the years, even among ADV UU players, opinions have shifted. Many who supported this incremental experiment now think it wasn’t enough. And, I've tried experimenting with multiple drop combinations in different tours to see if this was sustainable and, quite frankly, it isn't. To truly fix ADV UU—and by extension, all ADV lower tiers—we need to start over. Do a full drop. A total re-do. And it doesn’t stop at UU. NU is only semi-official and created from UU usage plus leftovers. And RU, PU, ZU are just VR-based extensions of UU or NU. If we do this right, and re-tier UU and NU, the rest will naturally fall into place.
The problem is, this isn’t simple. It’s not quick. And right now, I don’t think the community has the energy to do it. It’ll take work and it'll take years and a lot of ambition. But I do believe this is the correct way forward. And when the time comes—whether that’s soon or later—this is the plan I propose:
Step 1: Define what is droppable
There are really only six Pokémon that need discussion when it comes to a full drop:
- Not droppable: Raikou
, Porygon2 
, Regice 
- These were OU by usage when ADV tiers were frozen. That means they stay out of UU even in a full drop. Shiloh confirmed this with me years ago. - Maybe droppable: Charizard
, Moltres 
, Breloom 
- These were UU by usage back then but are OU now due to tour usage over the years. There’s no precedent here. Personally, I don't think any of these three would even survive the next steps and so to save time it'd be better to just not include them, but it should ultimately be decided by the players and tiering heads.
Step 2: Full drop to UU, timed right after a UUPL
Once we know what we’re dropping, we do a full drop into UU—ideally right after a UUPL ends. That gives us time before the next one to actually sort through the chaos. People can test the new meta in tours like ADV PL (tho unlikely as it happens right around UUPL time), ALT PL (if it's still around), and whatever UU side tour is running that year. But we’ll need more than that…
Step 3: Ladder tour with prize money to incentivize testing
We’ll need cooperation from PS staff to allow us to host an ADV UU ladder tour with all the drops. Then, run a 4-week ladder tour with a money prize, leading into a standard ladder tour playoffs. That’s the best way to get people grinding and exploring the new tier. It doesn’t need to be massive activity, just good enough by RoA or low-tier standards. Saving the usage stats for this could be nice, but I don't think we should really use the usage stats for anything based on this first chaotic segment. The playoffs ones would maybe be more useful.
Step 4: First ban slate – Clean house
After the ladder tour ends (and maybe some overlap with team tours), we vote to clean up the most broken stuff. Expect at least 5–6 Pokémon on the slate, maybe a lot more. Voters should be top ladder tour performers (anyone who qualled probably) and anyone with the usually accepted record in team tours with the drops.
Step 5: Team tours + another vote before next UUPL
Now the tier is cleaner. Let it settle in team tours. Additionally, run a small double-elim ADV UU singles tour (or a large one depending on signups). Then, 3 weeks before UUPL starts, hold another vote to handle any remaining problem Pokémon. I expect there will be another chunk of mons on that slate, though not nearly as much as the first slate. The voters for this slate could be semifinalists of the double-elim tour, plus the usual team tour records players (and, if you'd like, the ladder tour holdovers anyways). This wraps up just in time for the tier to show off what it's made of for UUPL.
Step 6: New ADV UU hits UUPL (and ADV PL)
We now get our first real test: the new, cleaned-up ADV UU gets played in UUPL and ADV PL. You can hold one final slate if necessary after UUPL and ADV PL end, but I wouldn't expect it to be more than 1-2 mons if any. After this point, tiering continues as usual, based on PR topics and community input. The hard part is over, and it's all about maintenance at this point.
Step 7: Update ADV UU Viability Rankings
Just standard maintenance, but essential. We can’t move on to NU until the new UU VRs are in place (not because NU is a VR tier (it's not), but because, well, you'll see). Please note that, if for some reason, the slate after UUPL/ADV PL was larger than expected, this step may have to be delayed if the metagame is too different to allow a more accurate VR. I don't expect this to happen though so long as we handled everything prior to this efficiently.
Step 8: Drop unviables from UU into NU; vote after NUPL
Now we work on NU. This is easier than UU. Take the Pokémon that are technically UU by usage but completely unranked on the new VRs (i.e., D-rank and below, no viability). Drop them into NU. This is ok to do, because the way the modern ADV NU was created was very similar to this - it was usage based partially, in addition to pulling some mons from UU to round out the tier. After a full cycle of tours (NUPL, ADV PL, etc.), hold a vote to confirm which ones belong (all of the drops should be on the slate).
It should be understood that the goal of adding these mons to NU is not to simply drop in whatever is not UU. Ultimately, the drops should be looked at to make ADV NU a better overall experience. As such, when the voting happens, these drops should be judged on whether they enhance the tier—not just allowed in for the sake of it.
Step 8a: Update RU from new UU VRs
RU is VR-based, so we just update it alongside the UU VRs. The ADV RU community can hold their own banslates/votes as needed if something is problematic. ADV RU frequently has many tours running, so it should be easy to tier as needed to handle actionable mons.
Step 9: Play new NU, update its VRs
After the vote slate wraps up, NU enters a new cycle of tours. Once those wrap up, update the NU Viability Rankings.
Step 10: Re-tier PU based on NU VRs
PU is also VR-based. So once NU’s VRs are ready, re-tier PU accordingly. As with RU, the PU community can hold votes on banning pokemon if necessary, but this really just goes without saying as that's standard tiering.
Step 11: Re-tier ZU
Same as PU. Once PU is cleaned up, ZU updates naturally.
This whole process will take around 2-3 years to complete. That’s a big commitment. But realistically? We’ve already spent years tweaking ADV UU just to drop four Pokémon. This would be a far better use of that time. Please understand that this is not a step backwards. We did make progress in what we've already done, and should be proud of that. Not just for what it's done to ADV, but how other tiers have looked at it as inspiration for potentially changing things of their won. But to fully make ADV lower tiers into what they should be, we have to eventually go all the way.
I’m not saying we’re ready right now. I wrote this so that when the moment does come, and when the community has the time, people, and motivation, we have a blueprint (which btw can be modified, I wrote the whole thing but that doesn't mean someone can't tweak it to make it better later on). If I’m still around, I’ll help. If I’m not, I hope this gives the next Johnny ADV Tier Hero something solid to work from.
Here is a TLDR/Summary in case you aint reading all of that:
ADV UU has been incrementally changed over the past few years, but the process has been criticized as inconsistent and incomplete. To fully fix ADV lower tiers, this plan proposes a full drop of all eligible Pokémon into UU, followed by a structured re-tiering process spanning several steps: a post-UUPL drop, a prize-backed ladder tour, multiple ban slates, and gradual redefinition of NU, RU, PU, and ZU based on viability and usage. This will take ~2–3 years but result in a cleaner, more honest set of ADV lower tiers. While the community may not be ready today, this framework provides a clear path forward when the time comes.
