Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[Not Miyan]

FayaWizard; you’re still very adamant about me using the AI just to form a post. You are still very disrespectful about how you worded your first part. I don’t see why does it have to be a very big deal if I used AI to creat some sensible and easy to understand texts. And you went as far as to delete my post SOLELY on that reason. You could have just mentioned that HDB discussion is very stale and need to be moved on. There was no need of disrespecting and then deleting my post as I didn’t infringe any prohibited topics.

I used a tool to help with my message.That doesn’t make my thoughts less real.

Either way, I see your counter point and I appreciate you took time and effort to seek out those stats. I never said people use the same teams. I also, am not asking to ban the HDB. NOT BAN. But to restrict the item 1 per team.

Again this is a wild thought, no one thought that Kyurem-B would’ve been ou for gen 5,6,7. But it was.

And yes — this one is written by me too. With or without AI, the thoughts are still mine.

with this I’ll put rest to my discussion. You’re welcome to reply. Please cosider in future if your ridiculing someone for using an AI tool then don’t delete their post and not make joke of the person.

To the other moderators, I don’t want to be disrespectful or difficult; but why is it such a big problem if someone uses AI to express exactly what they mean,instead of strugling to form perfect sentence or trying to say something that might mislead. isn’t the goal of discussion to share real thoughts, regardless how they actually write? Just something to think about.

 

[SittinGamer]

FayaWizard; you’re still very adamant about me using the AI just to form a post. You are still very disrespectful about how you worded your first part. I don’t see why does it have to be a very big deal if I used AI to creat some sensible and easy to understand texts. And you went as far as to delete my post SOLELY on that reason. You could have just mentioned that HDB discussion is very stale and need to be moved on. There was no need of disrespecting and then deleting my post as I didn’t infringe any prohibited topics.

I used a tool to help with my message.That doesn’t make my thoughts less real.

Either way, I see your counter point and I appreciate you took time and effort to seek out those stats. I never said people use the same teams. I also, am not asking to ban the HDB. NOT BAN. But to restrict the item 1 per team.

Again this is a wild thought, no one thought that Kyurem-B would’ve been ou for gen 5,6,7. But it was.

And yes — this one is written by me too. With or without AI, the thoughts are still mine.

with this I’ll put rest to my discussion. You’re welcome to reply. Please cosider in future if your ridiculing someone for using an AI tool then don’t delete their post and not make joke of the person.

To the other moderators, I don’t want to be disrespectful or difficult; but why is it such a big problem if someone uses AI to express exactly what they mean,instead of strugling to form perfect sentence or trying to say something that might mislead. isn’t the goal of discussion to share real thoughts, regardless how they actually write? Just something to think about.

This is another one of those things which never got listed as an official rule, I think, but the thread had has more than one mod, including a council member, state that AI should not be used to write posts throughout the history of the thread. This was back in like 2024, but still in This Thread.

Not pointing any fingers at anybody, but this ChatGPT comment makes me want to state something for posterity as a general rule of thumb: please do not use AI to write your posts.

For those wondering why, beyond just simple courtesy, ChatGPT and similar AI software’s data collection and synthesis methods regurgitate already publicized and stated information, worsened by not really understanding the nuance involved with specific subjects. Thus, this makes ChatGPT incapable of sharing any truly original thought. Set choices and the dynamics certain Pokemon have with one another in the context of specific game states/matchups are omitted completely, since you’re only going to be dealing with aggregated surface level information from surface level sources that cause it to generalize what it finds. This means that effectively you’re going to just get meaningless slop for your post that adds nothing no matter how you slice it.

Obviously, nobody can really say who is using AI to generate posts or not in an objective fashion. But, for the sake of actually having discussion that actively adds insight and builds knowledge bases, using AI to make your post isn’t going to provide anything of value. So, please don’t. Thanks!

I realize throwing something to be made more grammatically correct is not the same, but the post being taken down was not like, just making fun of you or something.

 

[Anchor9]

I get that ChatGPT should not be used to make posts to explain your opinion or generate entire posts, but surely using A.I. programs to help with grammar should be allowed. I’m not familiar with ChatGPT and how it works, but can’t you just give it a block of text and ask “fix grammar mistakes” or something like that?

 

[Not Miyan]

SittinGamer ; I appreciate your response and how you worded it. You weren’t disrespectful and weren’t making me feel bad and actually presented the sensible reason for not using the AI and do you notice how ausma wrote it without being judgmental. I was just following what was on the OP. May be that needs to be updated. I or anyone would not go back 700 pages to see what are the new rules made. And now, I know and thanks for clarifying that. It’s not about anyone disagreeing with me it’s about how they do it; especially if you’re a mod.

 

[pixelpenguin]

This is just untrue. Sets range from

Standard Spdef Spikes (sometimes rocks)
Rocky Helmet sets
Resttalk sets
Red card sets

And the mon sees usage on a wide range of teams

Okay but all these sets run Spikes (or Rocks), Ruination, EQ, and Whirlwind. I was mostly being hyperbolic but the difference between Red Card Dual Hazard Lead and Standard SpDef spiker isn't all that big. Only RestTalk Ting Lu really functions differently and that set is much less splashable than the others.

Yes it has more than literally 1 set. But apart from RestTalk, they do pretty much the same thing of hazard spam and forcing chip with Ruination. Ting Lu counterplay is much the same regardless of whether it has Heavy Slam or Rocky Helmet or even Taunt, which is why I think it's fair to call it predictable and not broken.

 

[Moyashi]

you’re still very adamant about me using the AI just to form a post. You are still very disrespectful about how you worded your first part. I don’t see why does it have to be a very big deal if I used AI to creat some sensible and easy to understand texts. And you went as far as to delete my post SOLELY on that reason. You could have just mentioned that HDB discussion is very stale and need to be move on. There was no need of disrespecting and then deleting my post as I didn’t infringe any prohibited topics.

I used a tool to help with my message.That doesn’t make my thoughts less real.

Faya hasn’t been disrespectful at all. They’re actually being pretty patient. But also your first post which you used AI for was far less easy to understand and had all kinds of wrong information in it (the bit on stall, talking about certain pokemon needing boots when they rarely run them actually, among other things).

The “tool” didn’t help your message or make it clearer. Your other comments have been clearer without the AI. As for that matter itself, there’s a whole host of reasons not to use AI but I don’t want to drag the thread into an unrelated tangent. The technology has a ton of questionable aspects about it right now, both in its development and how it’s widely being used.

Again this is a wild thought, no one thought that Kyurem-B would’ve been ou for gen 5,6,7. But it was.

KyuB was OU due to it lacking significant pieces of its toolkit needed to perform. It’s basically a textbook example of “what if we unbanned X uber but cut certain moves to make it palatable”.

Please cosider in future if your ridiculing someone for using an AI tool then don’t delete their post and not make joke of the person.

To the other moderators, I don’t want to be disrespectful or difficult; but why is it such a big problem if someone uses AI to express exactly what they mean,instead of strugling to form perfect sentence or trying to say something that might mislead. isn’t the goal of discussion to share real thoughts, regardless how they actually write? Just something to think about

Where did anyone ridicule you? You were just told not to use AI in your posts. And as said before, your posts that didn’t use AI were clearer than the one that used AI. You don’t need it.

I get that ChatGPT should not be used to make posts to explain your opinion or generate entire posts, but surely using A.I. programs to help with grammar should be allowed. I’m not familiar with ChatGPT and how it works, but can’t you just give it a block of text and ask “fix grammar mistakes” or something like that?

It’s shit at doing such things even, but also again there’s a whole discussion to be had about the nature of the tech and how it’s developed using… unsavory means… but that’s not for a thread like this.

 

[Achohermano]

I think an item clause rule would destroy OU and either make Spikes / Stealth Rock would get banned right away or a cascade of 10 bans (easily) would happen.

First of all, VGC and OU are really different. Hell, DBOU and VGC are really different. Singles 6v6 with no timer aganist 4v4 with timer is such a fundamental difference that comparing them is like saying that cheese and Ice Cream are the same because they both come from the cow.

Both defensive AND offensive teams would get really hurt by an items clause, since in singles, items like berries, clear amulet, covert cloak or ability shield are, excepting niche cases, not that good (I know they have their niche I just got shamoned by a Covert Cloak Corv this morning. That’s why I mean most of the time). Teams would vary a lot less in fact, and strong Pokemon will always get the strong item.

As for a HDB ban, the ban would just break offense even more. If we look at the May stats from OU this month from 1695 upwards, the top 10 Pokemon are ALL offensive mons, the top 1 is the only good hazard removal aside from Corv, top 3 already makes hazard game extremely hard, so what do we gain from banning HDB? Corviknight, Gliscor and Pecharunt are the only 3 defensive mons in the top 20, do we want a top 30 all offensive mons then? Idk

I don’t want to sound elitist, but if you play long enough aganist Ting Lu, Hamurott, Glimm and Ghold i don’t know how you can genuinely think “actually yeah let’s remove boots”.

 

[658Greninja]

The global rules of the Smogon forums state that

If that wasn’t made clear enough, I’ve recently added to the discussion thread rules

Not Miyan its best if you move on from the drama between you and FayaWizard to not derail the thread any further.

 

[Finchinator]

Been receiving a lot of complaints about Ogerpon-Wellspring lately. Early games around it can be a minefield or the world’s most awkward mirror, deciphering what variant it is dictated counterplay, and so on. Also been hearing a handful of people call for Roaring Moon to return to the tier. Not sure I am in favor of that yet though.

 

[withoutskill]

Been receiving a lot of complaints about Ogerpon-Wellspring lately. Early games around it can be a minefield or the world’s most awkward mirror, deciphering what variant it is dictated counterplay, and so on. Also been hearing a handful of people call for Roaring Moon to return to the tier. Not sure I am in favor of that yet though.

I agree, I play a team built around woger and its very hard for opponents to play against, and the mind games of "Does it have SD play rough? Oh, it has superpower my gambit is gone, Crap its SD knock my pecha is cooked" It dosen't have dnite variaty and the lack off an item slot and being forced into tera water provides some counterplay, but overall its a hassle to deal with, not to mention brainless ivy cudgel spam does not require much skill and can still win games. It also lacks a good switchin, Zama works once, pecha is forced to click recovery moves, hydraple cant beat sets with u-turn or play rough,Zapdos gets easily two shot by ivy cudgel and even dnite loses to play rough or tera water ivy after multi scale goes down. Partners like tusk,corv,and hatt can cover the hazard weakness and its way to easy to win games with by just clicking ivy cudgel. Lastly since ivy dosen't make contact abilitys like static and flame body won't stop it and on a side note effect spore which can cause sleep isn't banned idk if this is intentional

 

[Magcargo]

Been receiving a lot of complaints about Ogerpon-Wellspring lately. Early games around it can be a minefield or the world’s most awkward mirror, deciphering what variant it is dictated counterplay, and so on. Also been hearing a handful of people call for Roaring Moon to return to the tier. Not sure I am in favor of that yet though.

Kinda surprised by the calls for Ogerpon-W action. It's definitely strong, but I consider the lack of Boots to be a big weakness. Im not sure how others feel but imo Bootspam Hazard Spam teams are by far the strongest style in format due to mostly being consistent vs everything, having strong defensive pieces like Ting, and being able to play around most threats with the increased longevity. While Ogerpon-W is quite strong into these styles, I find that you need to play very aggressively in order to not lose hazard game + longevity battle + you have mons that can condition certain interactions I.E. you can condition clicking U-Turn / Power Whip / Play Rough on a mon like bolt or Serp letting you swap in Helmet Corv to chip it a bit. And of course, lacking additional Tera Versatility makes it a bit more straightforward than a few other mons.

Definitely a hot take, but the shift to bootspam focus makes Weavile feel incredibly good rn & i find that its able to very easily dominate games with a moderate amount of positioning. I would not be surprised if more players raise concerns about it or Darkrai in future.

 

[KamenOH]

As for a HDB ban, the ban would just break offense even more. If we look at the May stats from OU this month from 1695 upwards, the top 10 Pokemon are ALL offensive mons, the top 1 is the only good hazard removal aside from Corv, top 3 already makes hazard game extremely hard, so what do we gain from banning HDB?

Wouldn't offense not be able to use HDB as much either? Wouldn't they be forced to either stay in and risk dealing with a check, or swap out and have another mon take damage it might not be able to take? Hazards grind down everything not in timbs somewhat equally, wouldn't we want to either force our opponent to switch in something that needs the HP to tank a hit but won't now that HDB are on a different mon? Backbones swapped in and out because of HDB would be required to either commit to a bulkier build, or risk doing their job not as effectively. Poison would run amok, given Toxic Debris would be unable to be ignored. Flying types would surge until a rise in Electric and Ice types (Tera or otherwise) knocks them back down.
Hell, is Knock Off even that used, if Boots are so much of a problem? Would Roar and Whirlwind see a frankly silly amount of usage, forcing their users to tank hits before getting mere chip damage on an opponent?
I don't quite know where I ended up, but I don't immediately see why shit would implode. How would defensive teams go down the drain, forced to weather Stealth Rocks and Spikes just as much as offensive teams would? Both of them have one boot each, right?
Forgive me for not seeing what you think is obvious.

 

[toshimelonhead]

The global rules of the Smogon forums state that (edited: Do not use AI to make posts please and thank you)
View attachment 745715
Not Miyan its best if you move on from the drama between you and FayaWizard to not derail the thread any further.

In case this isn't clear enough to you, let me explain any ambiguities you may have on this matter.

If it quacks like a Psyduck, it's a Psyduck: Smogon users can see AI generated content from a mile away now. I don't even consider it out of bounds to use AI to assist as a tutor to bounce ideas with back and forth. I have done that several times--one clear example is the Hisuian Lilligant analysis I wrote a few months ago that FayaWizard eventually approved after I figured out the nuances of the C&C world. If AI assisted in writing V1 or V2, the final analysis approved on site was V19 or V20 after AI's influence had long been assimilated into the work. To be clear, AI did not even provide the context or insight that matters most in that analysis. I had experience with Hisuian Lilligant in OU and was one of the first to use Tera Fire on it at the mid-high ladder. The original pitched set was a post I made almost a year before the final analysis got approved on site. Obviously no one "patents" a set and I won't pretend others dabbled with it too, but no one on here has the patience for AI generated insights without human touch and experience to back it up. If you really want to pick a fight with FayaWizard given his contributions in other areas of Smogon, you must not miss by taking shortcuts (and I can see that you don't want to fight which is a good call). He does not bend the rules just to be nice, and I heavily respect him for that. I myself had a six week ordeal with him to get that analysis right that I don't want to repeat again, and I am sure he would tell you the same.

Meowth, that's right: Many do not speak English as their first language, and I conjecture several used competitive Pokemon to learn or improve their English communication skills. Broken English is a signal of communicating in a second language, and I applaud those brave enough to attempt that. Smogon as a whole would much rather have human broken English than perfect to you AI that everyone else can tell is wrong the moment they see it.

Back to the topic at hand though unless this thread wants to devolve to its typical degenerative state.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Hazard stack is one of the better answers to Ogerpon for sure, but the rise of Corv and the continued use of Tusk means that teams looking to keep ogerpon around will absolutely be using one of more of these to keep it safe. But even then, Ogerpon coming in means its going to generate value of Some kind due to the sheer coverage it has and Ivy being a free hit for anything that comes in. Seriously, the amount of games I'd had where Ivy just crits and puts something into range of a OHK is insane. Ridiculous mon, and the fact it gets an empowered knock or play rough is just even more ridiculous.

 

[Avira]

Been receiving a lot of complaints about Ogerpon-Wellspring lately. Early games around it can be a minefield or the world’s most awkward mirror, deciphering what variant it is dictated counterplay, and so on. Also been hearing a handful of people call for Roaring Moon to return to the tier. Not sure I am in favor of that yet though.

Are these complaints from top players/high ladder players? Pretty much all the OU tiering surveys from the past show that players who are part of the qualified pool of survey takers have markedly less trouble against Ogerpon-Wellspring than the general playerbase with that one time SPL players were specifically sampled showing a further drop in support for suspecting Ogerpon-Wellspring compared to the qualified sample as a whole.

Roaring Moon absolutely shouldn't return to the tier. Support for suspecting other targets markedly dropped after its ban, showing that Roaring Moon was an undue negative presence in the SV OU meta with a chokehold against multiple playstyles with teambuilding becoming much more free with it gone. Preparing for it was a huge chore in the builder to how much game-ending potential it could generate with just a slight opening.

 

[Finchinator]

Are these complaints from top players/high ladder players?

Yes

 

[PastaMechKaku]

Been receiving a lot of complaints about Ogerpon-Wellspring lately. Early games around it can be a minefield or the world’s most awkward mirror, deciphering what variant it is dictated counterplay, and so on. Also been hearing a handful of people call for Roaring Moon to return to the tier. Not sure I am in favor of that yet though.

I think Blunder said something about how Roaring Moon's ban paved the way for Wellspring and Gambit usage to rise as both of them didn't like being caught on Moon's war path which might partially explain the greater number of complaints despite Wellspring's most recent survey scores being relatively low-ish. Though requesting for Moon's unban is super wild though as it finding ways to leverage its bulk made it too un-tenable to face in tandem with its other insane strengths. It strikes me as the same kind of philosophy behind wanting to unban Volcarona where you bring back a "necessary evil" to keep the other troublemakers in check, though this approach isn't going to sit well with those that do not want appoint an evil dictator to supposedly hold the meta together.

 

[Magcargo]

I think Blunder said something about how Roaring Moon's ban paved the way for Wellspring and Gambit usage to rise as both of them didn't like being caught on Moon's war path which might partially explain the greater number of complaints despite Wellspring's most recent survey scores being relatively low-ish. Though requesting for Moon's unban is super wild though as it finding ways to leverage its bulk made it too un-tenable to face in tandem with its other insane strengths. It strikes me as the same kind of philosophy behind wanting to unban Volcarona where you bring back a "necessary evil" to keep the other troublemakers in check, though this approach isn't going to sit well with those that do not want appoint an evil dictator to supposedly hold the meta together.

Well Moon unban presumably would less about keeping other mons in check and moreso just give HO the key breaking tool it needed to make progress in the MU vs bootspam / fat. Think of your typical team with Glimm / ATales / Webs / etc. Generally, these teams can have a tough time in the bootspam MU because of their comparatively limited longevity - whereas the boots team can have an easier time playing a safer game, setting up hazards, playing more reactively, etc. Moon was the one major way these offensive structures could make major progress into these slower styles by knocking off Ting's leftovers or a few other items on mons like Zapdos, Corv, Garg, etc., maybe forcing a Tera here and there. It was able to make tangible progress against most of the bigger roadblocks that HO typically faces (Ting, Garg, Zama, etc.). The impression I get is that when Moon was used this way - as a support mon rather than a recovery sweeper, it was viewed in a more healthy manner.

IDK, I'm not too sad its gone, but it does feel like the bootspam style - which was already strong before - has only gotten stronger and a lot of these HO builds are struggling a fair bit. I feel it will take a while for them to recover since there truly wasn't a Pokemon on HO that did what Roaring Moon did.

 

[Achohermano]

Wouldn't offense not be able to use HDB as much either? Wouldn't they be forced to either stay in and risk dealing with a check, or swap out and have another mon take damage it might not be able to take? Hazards grind down everything not in timbs somewhat equally, wouldn't we want to either force our opponent to switch in something that needs the HP to tank a hit but won't now that HDB are on a different mon? Backbones swapped in and out because of HDB would be required to either commit to a bulkier build, or risk doing their job not as effectively. Poison would run amok, given Toxic Debris would be unable to be ignored. Flying types would surge until a rise in Electric and Ice types (Tera or otherwise) knocks them back down.
Hell, is Knock Off even that used, if Boots are so much of a problem? Would Roar and Whirlwind see a frankly silly amount of usage, forcing their users to tank hits before getting mere chip damage on an opponent?
I don't quite know where I ended up, but I don't immediately see why shit would implode. How would defensive teams go down the drain, forced to weather Stealth Rocks and Spikes just as much as offensive teams would? Both of them have one boot each, right?
Forgive me for not seeing what you think is obvious.

Usually (at least from my experience playing and watching, perhaps I'm wrong) defensive counterplay in Pokemon is an answer to the offensive play, it's hard to predict defense (you won't double a Corv or a Dondozo in most of the time) so the "defensive player" would get worn down faster through hazards most of the time.

I do agree Knock Off would surely be less used (idk if that's good or bad) but what I'm sure is without boots key pokemon at checking big threats in the tier (mons that, with boots, can struggle like Alomomola, Blissey, Moltres, Zapdos...) would crumble pretty fast to the new power creep. Also, the best hazard removal in the tier (Great Tusk) is a lot more splashable in offense than defense, so offensive teams would have an advantage there.

And yeah, if HDB ever gets banned or an item clause gets applied, Toxic Spikes are going crazy

BTW sorry if I sounded to aggresive on my first post. Didn't mean it.

 

[MC Squared]

and on a side note effect spore which can cause sleep isn't banned idk if this is intentional

It is intentional. Smogon won't ever modify abilities to work a certain way. You're now able to technically put more than one opponent to sleep by the use of Effect Spore or Relic Song

 

[BikDutkus]

Well Moon unban presumably would less about keeping other mons in check and moreso just give HO the key breaking tool it needed to make progress in the MU vs bootspam / fat. Think of your typical team with Glimm / ATales / Webs / etc. Generally, these teams can have a tough time in the bootspam MU because of their comparatively limited longevity - whereas the boots team can have an easier time playing a safer game, setting up hazards, playing more reactively, etc. Moon was the one major way these offensive structures could make major progress into these slower styles by knocking off Ting's leftovers or a few other items on mons like Zapdos, Corv, Garg, etc., maybe forcing a Tera here and there. It was able to make tangible progress against most of the bigger roadblocks that HO typically faces (Ting, Garg, Zama, etc.). The impression I get is that when Moon was used this way - as a support mon rather than a recovery sweeper, it was viewed in a more healthy manner.

IDK, I'm not too sad its gone, but it does feel like the bootspam style - which was already strong before - has only gotten stronger and a lot of these HO builds are struggling a fair bit. I feel it will take a while for them to recover since there truly wasn't a Pokemon on HO that did what Roaring Moon did.

Based god moon made gking soil his heavy duty boots. We need more Pokémon that can do that.

I recommend 4A non-spin tusk as a good way to break those slop fat teams. A great way to punch holes in ninny nanny wisp users.

Great Tusk @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Ice Spinner
- Headlong Rush
- Head Smash
- Temper Flare

Head Smash to KO those stupid had birds. So sad that we’re letting the tier converge on flame body and fat regen pivots.

Some great knock off Pokémon right now are:

(don’t be soft; don’t use boots)
(SD adamant slaps)
a very offensive spinner. Tera dark is spicy duck
lil rat
NP with knock is cheap
I like SD on webs with pickpocket. Takes 2+ boots a game.

Boots spam is a plague. I hope they nerf boots in gen 10 so that they break after 1 switch in.

 

[Cuddly]

I’m just gonna say it, but paralysis and flinching absolutely need clauses. Some form of regulation. Anything.
If evasion is ban worthy, so is paralysis and flinching moves not named Fake Out or Upper Hand. Not saying evasion should be unbanned, but paralysis and flinching by all accounts is far worse than Double Team. Anything you can say to defend Thunder Wave, Glare, Iron Head, etc. can be used to defend Double Team (not saying Double Team should be unbanned just actually regulate paralysis and flinching).
I know that no one in higher positions of Smogon will listen to me, but I hope God does and he punishes people that allow Jirachi (Satan in disguise) accountable (makes them lose important tournament games by hax).

 

[Ehmcee]

View attachment 745921
I’m just gonna say it, but paralysis and flinching absolutely need clauses. Some form of regulation. Anything.
If evasion is ban worthy, so is paralysis and flinching moves not named Fake Out or Upper Hand. Not saying evasion should be unbanned, but paralysis and flinching by all accounts is far worse than Double Team. Anything you can say to defend Thunder Wave, Glare, Iron Head, etc. can be used to defend Double Team (not saying Double Team should be unbanned just actually regulate paralysis and flinching).
I know that no one in higher positions of Smogon will listen to me, but I hope God does and he punishes people that allow Jirachi (Satan in disguise) accountable (makes them lose important tournament games by hax).

There's very clear differences between the counterplay to paralysis and flinching.

The counterplay to paralysis and flinching are out and about and very common in the current metagame, electric types, ground types (bar glare), getting statused in some other way (Rest, Toxic Orb Glisc). While flinching is just beat out by being faster and is by no means an issue in the current metagame.

Evasion required dedicated counterplay that wasn't even guaranteed to work, and was found to have no positive effect on skill expression, as opposed to paralysis and the moves linked to flinching.

Jirachi complaining in the big 2025 is certainly something

 

[FayaWizard]

View attachment 745921
I’m just gonna say it, but paralysis and flinching absolutely need clauses. Some form of regulation. Anything.
If evasion is ban worthy, so is paralysis and flinching moves not named Fake Out or Upper Hand. Not saying evasion should be unbanned, but paralysis and flinching by all accounts is far worse than Double Team. Anything you can say to defend Thunder Wave, Glare, Iron Head, etc. can be used to defend Double Team (not saying Double Team should be unbanned just actually regulate paralysis and flinching).
I know that no one in higher positions of Smogon will listen to me, but I hope God does and he punishes people that allow Jirachi (Satan in disguise) accountable (makes them lose important tournament games by hax).

Jirachi isn’t even ranked on the VR as a viable Pokemon…

Steering the conversation back to viable threats in the metagame, it’s really interesting to see an up-turn in Ogerpon-W complaints, though I can understand why. Currently, the Pivot sets seem to be the most popular, with 1/3rd of the overall usage, but options like SD are still seen as well. What do yall think is the best Ogerpon-W form? Do you think it’s going to be our next suspect, or just a passing fad?

 

[UltraSword]

Head Smash to KO those stupid had birds.

I don't think it is worth koing the birds with Great Tusk because the risk of getting burned or paralyzed is too great. It is better (imo) to let your special attacking teammates (or physical attacking without contact moves) do the job for you. As for the set itself, pretty much the whole reason to use Great Tusk is to spin. There are sweeping sets with bulk up and booster energy but all the ones I have seen still have rapid spin on them because they want to be able to outspeed Iron Valiant (which you can't even do after booster) and also because clearing hazards is that important.