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Other Tiers RBY Little Cup Hub
- Thread starter Sabelette
- Start date
Quick opinions, anything Rhyhorn and below is niche despite the tier dividers but Rhyhorn/Meowth/Dratini are less niche than the Cs
S ranks:
Order doesn't matter to me, everyone knows why these are good, Staryu should be 100% use and Diglett/Egg should be like 95% but you can drop both occasionally to exploit certain tendencies
A ranks:
Voltorb is stupid as shit once Egg is worn down unless they also have a Pikachu, I don't know why people are so fast to boom it and move on.
Wag is stupid and should probably get banned for being uncompetitive even if it's checkable.
Pikachu is amazing, one of the best lategame cleaners once Egg is down, one of the only Voltorb checks, and Quick Attack does exactly enough to Diglett to put it in range of other Diglett, so even revenge killing it is dicey.
Gastly has Hypnosis and Explosion, which alone makes it viable, but it also walls a bunch of B and below stuff, is the only real option to catch booms, and Mega Drain can steal nice amounts of HP from Waters or just remove a Rhyhorn.
Slowpoke is really the only other Diglett/Psychic check besides Egg and it's a surprisingly great Poliwag check too thanks to Earthquake. Super underrated.
Abra/DZ are just Psychics and that automatically makes them solid here, nearly unresisted STAB with big upsides is great and they spread status.
B ranks:
Rattata is super underrated, I almost put it in A tier. It revenges or wins 1v1s from absurd ranges thanks to STAB QA, it's one of the few things that beats Diglett 1v1, Blizz coverage lets it goob Egg and Rhyhorn. It has all the tools it needs to be solid, walled by Gastly is really the only weakness it has.
Ponyta is overrated, getting OHKOed by Diglett is a huge downside, but people are also using it wrong - IMO the way to use it is to get it in free on Egg (revenge or a double) and then smack something on entry, set up Agility before getting the KO, then you can't be revenged by Diglett and get one more big hit off. Just taking a KO with it is really middling otherwise.
Doduo's decent, it has really bad weaknesses like getting obliterated by Staryu but it can do some good stuff by revenging a chipped Diglett and clicking Agility, but so can any Agility clicker really. I'm putting it here for now purely on how hard it hits and that it only has one wall, the severely overrated Rhyhorn, but it might be a C tier.
Rhyhorn is fucking ass. Genuinely this mon is so fucking bad and I want whatever people are smoking to put it at 5 or 6 or whatever. It only clings to relevance off of walling Voltorb, it's an exploitable momentum sink that gives up sleep for free and gets revenged by everything from full. How are we pretending a Pokemon that loses to literally everything I ranked above it except for Voltorb and Doduo is a top threat? Even Abra survives EQ 98% of the time, good lord. It beats Gastly too but only if Gastly doesn't have Mega Drain and doesn't hit it with a crit or special drop from Psychic as it comes in, and even then, taking literally any stray hit means Diglett now revenge kills it too. This should honestly be the start of my C tier but I'm giving it some grace.
Meowth sucks, only up here for 90 speed.
Dratini was by far the most misused mon all tournament, why the fuck didn't anyone click Agility? Why did people just click Blizzard in front of Diglett instead of getting your Agility so you can take 1.5 KOes? Travesty. It's not terrible, may honestly be better than Doduo and I should put it above Rhyhorn and Meowth but I'm being conservative.
C ranks:
Horsea has Agility so it's usable, only having Water/Ice coverage is shit though.
Pidgey is genuinely trash, Rattata is just better and I don't think having a one-time EQ switch-in is worth that much, but it still has some niche.
Venonat is honestly a very cool mon, 2HKOes Egg, Psychic is a pain in the ass to switch into as is Stun Spore, and it's a faster sleeper than Egg without an Ice weakness. Unfortunately gets goobed by Psychics and Ponyta and has no useful resists but building a nat lead team that completely destroyed Cake's lead Voltorb stuff was a highlight of the tour for me, even if I wasn't the one piloting it.
Bulbasaur has some tricks with that Electric resist but lack of Stun Spore hurts; Razor Leaf might be cool combined with some para spreading and you can definitely use it as an Orb/Pika check to get sleep while preserving Egg. I could see it moving up maybe but walled by Gastly + Ice/Psy weak + no Ground resistance + no Stun Spore is rough.
Eevee is bulkier Rattata but no coverage and the bulk only matters in a couple niche spots; I think Blizzard even off Rat's nonexistent Special is better than anything Eevee brings, but it has some potential.
Cubone's one of the only things that tanks a Diglett EQ on switch and it role compresses Voltorb check/Diglett check/good coverage all into one package, but it's mediocre at the latter two roles so it's down here.
Magnemite hits like a truck but needs Egg chipped by like 40% and Diglett gone, Voltorb does it better for most use cases.
Omanyte/Kabuto are both ass but they have a tiny niche in walling stuff like Doduo and Eevee and Pidgey while being faster than Rhyhorn and outspeeding/tying Egg (and not getting oneshotted as freely), but being Elec weak instead of immune is ass.
Clefairy does not have bulk and anyone putting this in B or higher has either not used it or somehow failed to notice their Clef getting 2HKOed by everything. It's worse Drowzee except versus Diglett and (slightly) Rhyhorn thanks to Blizzard.
Shellder's ass, again the bulk doesn't hold up down here but it has Explosion, a couple useful resistances, and it usually survives 2 Diglett EQs, but 34% to get KOed before crits is still really really bad.
95 speed ties voltorb and outspeeds everything else, with 2hkos on most of the tier and ohkos on multiple common mons.
has perfect coverage and nothing really wants to switch into it. as such there is no reason to drop it.
walls diglett and multiple common mons. however, these are it's only entry points, and it is easily overloaded by repeatedtly switching ing or just trying to take down a single mon it checks, so it can be dropped.
this was one of the most common leads in the tournament. It's not the most consistent lead but it is oppressive against slow leads and there is no switching around sleep so it single handedly pressured the use of speed 90 leads only.
honor of being able to switch into diglett once force it out with surf. this is also the best switch in to an amnesia poliwag - it resists all of it's special moves. Earthquake and thunder wave mean it can pressure electrics and staryu very effectively on the switch. I even used headbutt + thunder wave to bring some mons into earthquake range. Goated mon. USE THIS MORE!!
This is able to switch into staryu and force it out with it's 95 speed. Unlike diglett however, it runs into hard walls, and there usually will be a diglett and an exeggcute in most teams, and it doesn't even 2hko multiple mons that 2hko it back. It was the second most common lead due to poliwag but it honestly works better in the back once more of it's checks are removed.
Excellent mon to use in the lead. It has no hard walls like voltorb , and can chip exeggcute very effectively before being sleep sacked with body slam(mega kick if you hate consistency but believe in the high rolls). Unfortunately it can't switch into staryu safely, but it works just about the same in the lead.
Another excellent lead. It will OHKO poliwag with a critical hit psychic even at level 5 and between critical hits and special drops, exeggcute will lose a LOT trying to switch into it. It also switches into gastly and makes it regret being put on the team with a 100% psychic OHKO. Do NOT click thunder wave on lead with abra on t1. You are better off clicking psychic and hoping abra goes first and gets the special drop.
This is an exeggcute that doesn't fold to blizzards and can spread paralysis more consistently with thunder wave over stun spore. Unfortunately speed ties exeggcute so it doesn't quite beat it, and the slow speed makes it lackluster for switching in.
This alone walls a bunch of B tier mons and lower and switches into booms with impunity, giving it plenty of entry opportunities. It doesn't match up well into most of the mons above it and is a free diglett ko, so it has to find value early or find itself doing nothing. Its crazy how hard this allows abra in for free LMAO.
This thing has a VERY strong quick attack , dealing between 30-40% to diglett, and reasonably strong body slams. It is 2hko'd by most moves like many mons in the tier, but it is so lacking in bulk that many critical hits will outright kill it. It is also outsped and only has super fang to do anything significant to gastly.
is a really cool choice of sleeper, and I actually did use it in a few games this last tournament. It should definitely be used more.Drowzee and exeggcute are both fine sleepers but they speed tie each other at 40 speed due to their stats rounding to the same number at level 5. Venonat, however, outspeeds both of them at speed 45, so it can get the drop on them if they switch in on a double. A lot of mons that force out the opposing lead will often have the opponent bring in exeggcute/diglett, two mons that are very worthwhile to sleep. Unlike bulbasaur, another 45 speed sleeper, venonat is not hard walled by gastly, possessing both stun spore + psychic to catch it on the switch and not be a free entry point for it.
Venonat Psychic vs. Gastly: 10-12 (45.4 - 54.5%) -- 34.1% chance to 2HKO
Bulbasaur Razor Leaf vs. Gastly on a critical hit: 4-5 (18.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
However, venonat's entry points are highly specific. It should not be switching in on ANY moves and should try to come in on an early easy double.
It also has the most to lose from missing sleep; unlike drowzee and exeggcute who risk taking sleep in the mirror, venonat will just be ohkod by psychic 25% of the time, allowing the opponent a chance to sleep something else, which is why this will never be particularly high in the VR. The other 75% of the time however, this mon is an easy early momentum grabber.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2098167700
Unfortunately I didnt find too many chances to actually use this in tournament sets. This venonat didn't have leech life or double edge so it did absolutely no damage to exeggcute before going down.
Venonat Leech Life vs. Exeggcute: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Venonat Double-Edge vs. Exeggcute: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO
Give this C rank a go! It's really easy to find entry opportunities for it.
some comments
~ staryu rules this tier, its the best mon at rly every stage of the game main reason for not leading it is to have it in back, great speed strong 100% accurate stab with perfect coverage + twave, only weakness is voltorb which can switch in once
~ 2-4 can be any order to me, egg orb dig are v different so hard to compare. egg switches into dig, can switch into orb to force it to boom, sleep and boom utility, hardest of these to drop, but obv its not cleaning endgames or anything, best case is generally 2 for 1 sleeping something booming something else.
orb is the tier's only staryu control and a big potential threat in its own right plus the only 90+ speed boom, but gastly (+ dig) can cause issues for it, rhyhorn less so honestly if u switch into staryu and then boom on rhyhorn thats still decent value. also checks any agility with twave boom. flash should probably be the fourth move 99% of the time, and bothers gastly switchins in particular (if u dont want to click tbolt/twave). dont love it as an anti poliwag lead, feels very easy for the opponent to go to either their own orb or to eggy, if orb booms on egg thats great for wag later, and there isnt rly anything that puts you in a + position against both voltorb and egg switchins. i hate the t1 ground switch into voltorb lines that were exploited repeatedly in the tour.
diglett has actual liabilities but obv the only other mon that outspeeds the 90s, obv effects the teambuilder quite a bit, and can clean endgames if both staryu and egg didnt preserve their hp, or if someone tries to wake a slept mon (usually very bad to do) or if diglett finds a different way to get a substitute up then star no longer checks. sand attack probably deserves more exploration but i was scared of dropping rock slide so i never used that, eggy hates sand tho as in addition to reducing sleep powder to 50% egg cant rly click boom post sleep at -1 accuracy. body slam is good, slash sucks.
~ i still like ponyta a lot, i actually use it kind of the opposite of what sabelette said, pony is one of the bulkiest mons in the tier so its nice to switch into stuff like stab psychics (special drop is nbd bc u prefer to bslam anyway), and if u switch it into attacks then being revenged by diglett doesnt rly matter bc it did its job. agility cleaning is also an option tho. either way, obv dont use it in a way that puts urself in a position of repeatedly switching into diglett. pony is the only good mon that doesnt resist elec but is still fine fighting orb which is good to have, also is v solid as a lead as it fights mons like dz/abra very well while maintaining a speed tie with wag and threatening it p well with its strong bslam (and ofc wag doesnt ohko so if wag is clicking stab instead of hypnosis the mu is still fine). feels clearly better than everything below (excluding wag) but obv nowhere near the level of the top 4.
wag is broken, 90 speed with hypnosis, and body slam + blizzard hits everything well afterward, but ofc hypnosis can miss and unlike egg mon isnt getting multiple chances to hit the sleep move. hard to rank in a vr since its either at a similar level to the #2-4 mons or it misses and dies.
i saw it mostly as a lead, dont see why you couldnt use it in back too and it lives a crit eq from diglett and ohkos back which is a nice trait to have on a back mon, but i didnt rly see it in back nor use it myself so unsure how to evaluate that. could be nice to not have to go for hypnosis if ur ahead and j use it as a generic 90 speeder. amnesia on wag is like fine but dont see much reason for it esp when you can click bslam button instead.
~ gastly is the only real way to bother voltorb which wants to be able to click boom freely, and ofc has boom itself. p neutral matchup spread otherwise except for the diglett ohko, could come into poliwags clicking bslam after sleeping something if amnesia use were to go down on wag, and ig it is also good vs some niche stuff like horsea and eevee/rat. egg ofc also clicks boom but i think egg boom tends to be harder to predict and ofc much riskier for gastly than orb's boom.
i dont rly feel gastly has a ton of value outside of the orb mu, but orb mu is huge and the mon is still ~fine outside of that mu so easy next mon for me. it could go at bottom of pony/wag tier rather than top of this tier, idrc and obv early meta etc.
dz is a great lead vs not wag, doesnt offer a lot outside of that role to me compared to other options but it lives two staryu non crit surfs, ig. overall a low ceiling mon that doesnt rly switch into anything besides other dz/abra so its p mediocre for similar reasons to in pu. pikachu just has such disappointing calcs all around but its 90 speed and is slighlty favored vs staryu 1v1 which has some value, also can switch into voltorb and click surf which is a bit better click than what voltorb has in electric mirrors, tho it can also get twaved into fp since its slower. checked by egg tho egg cant rly check both dig and pika in the same game. i dont value slowpoke as much as others its damage output is a bit lacking and hard switching it into diglett is still quite risky, so it doesnt fit my playstyle as much ig but still its a mon with various good traits, unblockable twave, and acceptable coverage for evthg with eq surf blizz. as sabelette said it does switch into poliwag extremely well, resisting any special attack and having the best physical bulk in the tier for poliwag's bslam, that might be its biggest value. dz/pika/poke could be in any order for me i think. rhyhorn is the second best orb check, and checks some niche stuff like dodo, overall you prob should be using gastly instead but maybe if you want to drop diglett you could justify rhyhorn as gastly kind of needs diglett support to bother orb. mon could def be placed lower than this but orb is broken so i put it here.
~ abra kind of sucks but its an OK lead since it is acceptable vs poliwag while also being mostly-ok in most other mus with twave psy. a lot of competition with ponyta as a lead tho imo as pony is much better against stuff like dz while i dont know that abra is rly any better that pony vs wag, and pony itself is also a quite bad lead mu for abra. would not rly use this mon in back as it has too many liabilities and there are just better 90 speeders available, tho it does share dz's trait of being a semi-passable staryu switchin if ur desperate.
all this other stuff is pretty bad and i wouldnt rly use them, horsea can be dangerous against someone who didnt preserve staryu but you are often preserving staryu for endgame anyway bc of diglett (and if you arent you might have another water like poke or wag), so i feel like its strong showing in several tour games might be a lil misleading. smokescreen is cool tho. i think eevee is the least bad of the stab quick attack users, stats matter a lot, and i think sand attack is about as good as coverage for gastly as the tools rattata has anyway so the lack of coverage isnt a huge deal to me. and once again sand attack can be a cool move to have to set up endgames such as enabling diglett to get a substitute up. i would never use clefairy but the blizzard ohko on diglett i suppose means it isnt 100% outclassed by dz, however back dz isnt rly good to begin with so this mon rly does not interest me lol.
VR is here!
Big thanks to all the submitters! (Eeveeto Sabelette Tree69420 Nashrock Laroxyl Alice Kazumi gastlies Sunrose NotVeryCake Medeia Novax juoean HSOWA Maris Bonibell Ranshiin Ibby) Also special thanks to Wanted in 49 States for the data collection!
Methodology:
S1:
S2:
A:
B1:
B2:
C1:
C2:
D:
E:
Big thanks to all the submitters! (Eeveeto Sabelette Tree69420 Nashrock Laroxyl Alice Kazumi gastlies Sunrose NotVeryCake Medeia Novax juoean HSOWA Maris Bonibell Ranshiin Ibby) Also special thanks to Wanted in 49 States for the data collection!
Methodology:
- Every player who gained reqs submitted their own viability rankings. Each ranking has equal weight
Any Pokemon with under 3 votes was omitted from the final rankings(every mon was ranked at least 3 times lmao)
S1:
S2:
A:
B1:
B2:
C1:
C2:
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E:
Last edited:
Unsurprisingly the first VR has some fraudulence to it but it’s nice to take a step toward establishing this tier and honestly not as bad as I figured (except Rhyhorn badly needs to get down from there). I’m planning another tournament for about the end of the year, that one will probably be Tradebacks Legal + Sleep Banned then another regular tournament and a look into potential tiering action. Keep an eye out
Oh sorry to double post but I forgot to leak my "secret" (obvious) tech from the tour that I gave to a few people. Surprised almost nobody figured this out, even in semis and finals I saw people using a nearly objectively worse Diglett spread than this.
Diglett
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 28 Def
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam
- Substitute
Why these IVs? This lowers your HP from 20 to 19 without affecting other stats (you could also lower HP Stat Exp, same thing). In exchange for slightly worse matchups into Rhyhorn and Doduo (they go from a 33.3% to OHKO you to a 64.1%) you get to click Substitute 4 times instead of 3. Super worth it IMO with the proliferation of 90 Speed Thunder Wave users not to mention the amount of Body Slam flying around; both matchups are uncommon enough and a Diglett sub is game-winning once Egg is removed.
Diglett
IVs: 6 HP / 28 Atk / 28 Def
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam
- Substitute
Why these IVs? This lowers your HP from 20 to 19 without affecting other stats (you could also lower HP Stat Exp, same thing). In exchange for slightly worse matchups into Rhyhorn and Doduo (they go from a 33.3% to OHKO you to a 64.1%) you get to click Substitute 4 times instead of 3. Super worth it IMO with the proliferation of 90 Speed Thunder Wave users not to mention the amount of Body Slam flying around; both matchups are uncommon enough and a Diglett sub is game-winning once Egg is removed.
TLDR: Take the survey here (open till all current tours end including the spotlight, so no rush), let's talk about Sleep/Pokemon Bans/Tradebacks.
Hello all,
Quite a bit has happened since this thread last got some use! We've had a Tradebacks legal + Sleep banned tour (currently at top 6), play in a team tournament (currently at semifinals), and RBY LC is currently a spotlight ladder with a spotlight tour (currently at signups). All of that is to say, this tier has exploded in popularity and number of games played, and we've been able to try out an alternate format and gather some data. Having played in the initial tour and the TBs legal tour as well as supported LC in RBYOMPL and doing well in both of my tour runs, I have some opinions and thoughts on direction of the tier, and as the tier leader, I also want to address things that others have raised as concerns or thoughts. I have a LOT to go through, so I'm gonna break it up into a bunch of spoiler-tag posts on different facets of the meta. I also am running a broad survey on the tier that will remain open until the conclusion of all current RBY LC tournaments.
Hello all,
Quite a bit has happened since this thread last got some use! We've had a Tradebacks legal + Sleep banned tour (currently at top 6), play in a team tournament (currently at semifinals), and RBY LC is currently a spotlight ladder with a spotlight tour (currently at signups). All of that is to say, this tier has exploded in popularity and number of games played, and we've been able to try out an alternate format and gather some data. Having played in the initial tour and the TBs legal tour as well as supported LC in RBYOMPL and doing well in both of my tour runs, I have some opinions and thoughts on direction of the tier, and as the tier leader, I also want to address things that others have raised as concerns or thoughts. I have a LOT to go through, so I'm gonna break it up into a bunch of spoiler-tag posts on different facets of the meta. I also am running a broad survey on the tier that will remain open until the conclusion of all current RBY LC tournaments.
Unsurprisingly, a LOT of people do not like sleep being legal. I notice that the main group of players who are super anti-sleep are non-RBYers, mostly coming over from the LC community (and welcome, we're happy to have you!), while RBY players seem more okay with it generally? That said, there seem to be 3 common camps here with some overlap between them:
1. Sleep is broken, ban it fully.
2. Poliwag is broken/coinflippy, remove it and then sleep is mainly down to Drowzee and Exeggcute.
3. Sleep is fine, leave it alone, outplay/outposition opposing sleepers.
I am genuinely not sure of my own position on this and I would not be sad to see sleep go; I would probably rather ban the mechanic than any Pokemon, because unless you run Paras it's a 60-75% OHKO that also can get ruined by an instant wake in a tier where most things already can 2HKO each other, so it introduces some stupid variance where one sleep miss can lose the game. Poliwag is unequivocally stupid, though, and I think that banning it is the bare minimum if we keep sleep around. That said, I want to get community data and decide what to do here. Please feel free to also post opinions in response.
1. Sleep is broken, ban it fully.
2. Poliwag is broken/coinflippy, remove it and then sleep is mainly down to Drowzee and Exeggcute.
3. Sleep is fine, leave it alone, outplay/outposition opposing sleepers.
I am genuinely not sure of my own position on this and I would not be sad to see sleep go; I would probably rather ban the mechanic than any Pokemon, because unless you run Paras it's a 60-75% OHKO that also can get ruined by an instant wake in a tier where most things already can 2HKO each other, so it introduces some stupid variance where one sleep miss can lose the game. Poliwag is unequivocally stupid, though, and I think that banning it is the bare minimum if we keep sleep around. That said, I want to get community data and decide what to do here. Please feel free to also post opinions in response.
Opinions here vary wildly from what I've seen. Some people want Poliwag gone because of sleep, a fair number of people seem to want to test Diglett or Staryu, and I've occasionally seen other Pokemon named as problematic, but it's mainly these three I see brought up. Poliwag we covered above, but let's talk about the other two:
Diglett is Diglett. It doesn't have Arena Trap like later gens, but it's immune to Electric in a tier where two of the best mons are Electric-types and where Staryus often trade Tbolts with each other, it's faster than literally everything but Voltorb, which it still ties, and it OHKOes quite a few things - Electrics, Ponyta, Gastly. The only realistic Ground-immune brings are Pidgey and Doduo (the latter being mostly relegated to Tradebacks), both 2HKOed by Rock Slide, and Exeggcute is the only viable Ground-resistant Pokemon. Aside from this, Diglett does have some tough matchups - any Water-type can force it out, Rattata pseudo-traps it because hard switching into Rattata Body Slam is tough, Quick Attack users can snipe it after one solid hit - but it's absurdly hard to switch into. Slowpoke is usually 3HKOed by Earthquake, Exeggcute can switch in a couple times, and otherwise you have to bring one of the decidedly-mediocre Flying-types and get in on Earthquake specifically. It's not unreasonable to want it gone; I personally lean on the side of "position well so your Diglett does more than theirs and your Exeggcute holds theirs off" but I am open to other thoughts.
Staryu is unwallable, period. It has a way to OHKO or 2HKO every single Pokemon in the tier and very limited checks, as even resisted hits are often enough to put a switch-in in range. Abra usually can switch into Surf (34% to 2HKO), but crits and the possibility that Staryu is running Hydro Pump makes this tough. Staryu can switch into Surf from opposing Staryu, but a highroll or crit from this or the upcoming Thunderbolt toasts it. Staryu getting in is arguably worse than a Diglett in - at least with Diglett you have Exeggcute to save you once or twice, but with Staryu you have to predict its move or die. That said, Staryu has some obvious weaknesses - both Electric-types OHKO it and easily switch into a Thunderbolt, Abra also easily tanks a non-Water move on entry, and Diglett can switch into Thunderbolt from a weakened Staryu and finish it off, and Staryu doesn't really have an easy time switching into anything itself; +2 Poliwag can severely dent or outright beat it, Slowpoke has Thunder Wave and STAB Psychic or Earthquake to quickly put it in range of other threats, Gastly usually blows it up with Thunderbolt, and so on. As with Diglett, I think this is a matter of positioning better in a highly-offensive tier, but I do want to hear other opinions as well.
Diglett is Diglett. It doesn't have Arena Trap like later gens, but it's immune to Electric in a tier where two of the best mons are Electric-types and where Staryus often trade Tbolts with each other, it's faster than literally everything but Voltorb, which it still ties, and it OHKOes quite a few things - Electrics, Ponyta, Gastly. The only realistic Ground-immune brings are Pidgey and Doduo (the latter being mostly relegated to Tradebacks), both 2HKOed by Rock Slide, and Exeggcute is the only viable Ground-resistant Pokemon. Aside from this, Diglett does have some tough matchups - any Water-type can force it out, Rattata pseudo-traps it because hard switching into Rattata Body Slam is tough, Quick Attack users can snipe it after one solid hit - but it's absurdly hard to switch into. Slowpoke is usually 3HKOed by Earthquake, Exeggcute can switch in a couple times, and otherwise you have to bring one of the decidedly-mediocre Flying-types and get in on Earthquake specifically. It's not unreasonable to want it gone; I personally lean on the side of "position well so your Diglett does more than theirs and your Exeggcute holds theirs off" but I am open to other thoughts.
Staryu is unwallable, period. It has a way to OHKO or 2HKO every single Pokemon in the tier and very limited checks, as even resisted hits are often enough to put a switch-in in range. Abra usually can switch into Surf (34% to 2HKO), but crits and the possibility that Staryu is running Hydro Pump makes this tough. Staryu can switch into Surf from opposing Staryu, but a highroll or crit from this or the upcoming Thunderbolt toasts it. Staryu getting in is arguably worse than a Diglett in - at least with Diglett you have Exeggcute to save you once or twice, but with Staryu you have to predict its move or die. That said, Staryu has some obvious weaknesses - both Electric-types OHKO it and easily switch into a Thunderbolt, Abra also easily tanks a non-Water move on entry, and Diglett can switch into Thunderbolt from a weakened Staryu and finish it off, and Staryu doesn't really have an easy time switching into anything itself; +2 Poliwag can severely dent or outright beat it, Slowpoke has Thunder Wave and STAB Psychic or Earthquake to quickly put it in range of other threats, Gastly usually blows it up with Thunderbolt, and so on. As with Diglett, I think this is a matter of positioning better in a highly-offensive tier, but I do want to hear other opinions as well.
Tradebacks has been interesting. I've really welcomed some things, like the proliferation of priority moves to make Doduo a real priority revenge killer and moves like Agility/Counter/Fighting coverage getting passed around a bit more, and really hated others, like the fact it gives sleep moves to a bunch of base 90 Speed Pokemon and gives Abra and Drowzee BoltBeam coverage. The question is - should Tradebacks be legal, and if so what needs a ban? I am not sure if Tradebacks should be legal and am personally leaning toward no, because I think it would require banning a lot of stuff to make it balanced - Abra surely has to go, Doduo might be overcentralizing, and sleep moves absolutely have to go, so how much of Tradebacks is even left at that point? Those three changes are pretty much the biggest things you get access to via Tradebacks. That said, I'm only really certain that Abra and sleep are too much here, so maybe it's a beneficial change? Anyway, as usual, open to discussion and opinions here.
Tradebacks doesn't really have a reason to be legalized policy-wise and it breaks a lot more than it fixes. Sleep gets pushed towards banworthy and Abra lol (even Drowzee without sleep is a little silly). So even if we ignore policy for a moment, which to be clear, we are, tradebacks literally fixes nothing and just breaks things further. Things get more centralized and we need to start removing elements to balance it again when the tier as is, is fine.
Sleep is genuinely fine but maybe suspect Poliwag. Not sure if any action is needed but putting Poliwag to a vote is whatever. I don't really get grumbling about Exeggcute much, it's annoying, but far from broken. Poliwag combines the worst of speed ties and variance the tier is already full of.
I don't think any Pokemon is broken in current LC. Staryu and Exeggcute run the tier but I don't think either are too much. Diglett is kept in check fine with Staryu+Exeggcute being near 100% usage worthy and so is Electrode on top of the thing where it already can't touch grounds. Staryu being as unwallable as it is makes the endgames feel like it never goes down to matchups so I believe its presence is a positive for skill expression for the tier. Exeggcute pretty much just circles back to sleep complaints and I think removing it would severely harm the tier (to the point where yes, if it's deemed too much, just toss sleep instead).
I would lean towards no ban on Staryu and anything else besides Poliwag (where i'm still not sure about)
Poliwag isn't so much broken as it is super dicey. See: justification for old NU poliwhirl ban.
I'd like if TBs does become legalized if we entertained the idea of sleep for a moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if we discover very, very quick that it needs a quickban. We literally avoid needing to ban sleep and Abra and maybe even more if we just stick to the status quo and do not legalize tradebacks.
tldr tier is fine as is maybe suspect poliwag but nothing else needs touching. poliwag is suspect material not qb material to me but i really dont actually care if we decide to quickban it.
Sleep is genuinely fine but maybe suspect Poliwag. Not sure if any action is needed but putting Poliwag to a vote is whatever. I don't really get grumbling about Exeggcute much, it's annoying, but far from broken. Poliwag combines the worst of speed ties and variance the tier is already full of.
I don't think any Pokemon is broken in current LC. Staryu and Exeggcute run the tier but I don't think either are too much. Diglett is kept in check fine with Staryu+Exeggcute being near 100% usage worthy and so is Electrode on top of the thing where it already can't touch grounds. Staryu being as unwallable as it is makes the endgames feel like it never goes down to matchups so I believe its presence is a positive for skill expression for the tier. Exeggcute pretty much just circles back to sleep complaints and I think removing it would severely harm the tier (to the point where yes, if it's deemed too much, just toss sleep instead).
I would lean towards no ban on Staryu and anything else besides Poliwag (where i'm still not sure about)
Poliwag isn't so much broken as it is super dicey. See: justification for old NU poliwhirl ban.
I'd like if TBs does become legalized if we entertained the idea of sleep for a moment, but I wouldn't be surprised if we discover very, very quick that it needs a quickban. We literally avoid needing to ban sleep and Abra and maybe even more if we just stick to the status quo and do not legalize tradebacks.
tldr tier is fine as is maybe suspect poliwag but nothing else needs touching. poliwag is suspect material not qb material to me but i really dont actually care if we decide to quickban it.
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Diglett / Staryu are not broken and much needed in the Meta for eachother and various other reasons.
Please don't quick ban anything, if you really want, do a suspect test for poliwag
Please don't quick ban anything, if you really want, do a suspect test for poliwag
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1lc-852014
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1lc-852017
Can we ban Sand Attack? The proof enough should be in tbese two games as to why this is Needed
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen1lc-852017
Can we ban Sand Attack? The proof enough should be in tbese two games as to why this is Needed
Lmao I was considering whether or not to make this same post but was worried I'd just come across as salty, so I'm glad you went ahead and did it yourself. There are a lot of goofy RNG moments in this tier (like that Staryu mirror at the start of G2), but I feel like Sand Attack Diglett pushes it from a fun & quirky but not super serious format to a wholly uncompetitive mess.
I support this, while this tier is very uncompetitive at times (Staryu mirrors, a lot of Exeggcute interactions, etc.) Sand attack pushes this to the point where it becomes unfun for both parties, Sand Attack allows mainly Diglett to just luck through any bad interaction which is really bad especially on a Pokemon as good as Diglett, who would still be elite without it. And that's very uncompetitive, even past objective competitivity, it's just not fun for anyone.
I think Staryu is already overbearing enough to look into regardless, but even if you don't fully agree, those mirrors should make everyone question whether or not that Mon is worth keeping around
Reminder to do the survey, I will be closing it in like a week now that the RBY LC tour's done!
Tagging some people who did well in the Spotlight to consider filling it out pretty please
bleahey
GirlsSeeGhosts
kjdaas
Maris Bonibell
bahsar
magialice
King Billu
Tagging some people who did well in the Spotlight to consider filling it out pretty please
bleahey
GirlsSeeGhosts
kjdaas
Maris Bonibell
bahsar
magialice
King Billu
I am also going to once again collect VRs before we do any tiering action! I'll be doing two separate collections, covering regular LC and our Tradebacks + Sleep Banned metagame since I do intend to continue developing that tier, though with less focus than the "main" LC. I will ask that, since I'm keeping requirements loose, if you feel you are not qualified and did not get enough games during the Spotlight or other qualifications due to byes, please abstain from submitting!
RBY LC
Top Cut in the RBY LC Spotlight
Maris Bonibell
TPM
bahsar
magialice
Thootjuh
Joaowk3
kjdaas
King Billu
hammer798
roxie
GirlsSeeGhosts
TG2513
PKMN Master™
Melbelle
bleahey
Gerrychu29
Chloe
2xNoodle
Sabelette
Played in RBYOMPL in the RBY LC slot for at least 2 games
gali
Hacker
Medeia
King Billu
TG2513
Vulpix03
bleahey
Tier leader fiat - if you think you have a good argument for submitting a VR, such as a high number of friendly matches, prep matches during OMPL, a top placement in the first RBY LC tour, etc, you can argue to me for including your VR since this is a low activity tier, just DM me.
RBY LC Tradebacks (Sleep Banned)
Top 16 of Dodeus Ex
gastlies
Ineros
TG2513
Maris Bonibell
gali
Toxin Boost
Sunrose
SkidandPump102
Sabelette
magialice
Melbelle
Chloe
TPM
Greedy_eb
Wanted in 49 States
Tier leader fiat - again, if you think you have a good argument for submitting a VR, you can argue to me for including your VR since this is a low activity tier, just DM me.
Here is a tiermaker that works for either metagame, please submit by August 9th if you intend to submit! Please also rank your Pokemon in order, thank you! You can add or remove tiers, just ensure your Pokemon are listed in order.
https://tiermaker.com/create/pokemon-rby-little-cup-15894325
RBY LC
Top Cut in the RBY LC Spotlight
Maris Bonibell
TPM
bahsar
magialice
Thootjuh
Joaowk3
kjdaas
King Billu
hammer798
roxie
GirlsSeeGhosts
TG2513
PKMN Master™
Melbelle
bleahey
Gerrychu29
Chloe
2xNoodle
Sabelette
Played in RBYOMPL in the RBY LC slot for at least 2 games
gali
Hacker
Medeia
King Billu
TG2513
Vulpix03
bleahey
Tier leader fiat - if you think you have a good argument for submitting a VR, such as a high number of friendly matches, prep matches during OMPL, a top placement in the first RBY LC tour, etc, you can argue to me for including your VR since this is a low activity tier, just DM me.
RBY LC Tradebacks (Sleep Banned)
Top 16 of Dodeus Ex
gastlies
Ineros
TG2513
Maris Bonibell
gali
Toxin Boost
Sunrose
SkidandPump102
Sabelette
magialice
Melbelle
Chloe
TPM
Greedy_eb
Wanted in 49 States
Tier leader fiat - again, if you think you have a good argument for submitting a VR, you can argue to me for including your VR since this is a low activity tier, just DM me.
Here is a tiermaker that works for either metagame, please submit by August 9th if you intend to submit! Please also rank your Pokemon in order, thank you! You can add or remove tiers, just ensure your Pokemon are listed in order.
https://tiermaker.com/create/pokemon-rby-little-cup-15894325
(unordered)
I find RBY lc to be very centralized and punish straying from the top 5 mons, in typical LC fashion. Politoed could potentially be lower since it isn’t a very consistent option but I think it has a ton of upside. This is roughly based on what I’d consider loading, usually being the top 3 mons every time, the next two most of the time, and 1-2 of the others to fill.
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I am really bad at these so take this with a grain of salt (I might remove it before the deadline, since this is the first VR I do since the 2019 Ubers one).
I feel like the lack of quick-attack on Meowth makes it less useful for me, because of the other normals have that move which can be a life saver when facing against a diglett.
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