Announcement SV Ubers UU Suspect Process Round 6: A Horse With No Name - Spectrier

Frito

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:sv/Spectrier:
The Ubers UU Council has decided to suspect test Spectrier!

Since the ban of Zacian, Hyper Offense teams have risen to the forefront of the meta with Spectrier leading the charge. Spectrier's Ghost Typing enables it many chances to enter the battle with the intention of blocking hazard removal. While Spectrier itself isn't a new addition onto these teams, the lack of good speed control options in the tier turn its Base 130 Speed into a massive threat under these conditions. Gaining Draining Kiss during the transition to generation 9 has allowed Spectrier to threaten the Dark and Normal Types that previously attempted to stave it off, especially given its access to Terastallization. With Zacian gone, Spectrier is now able to abuse Tera Fairy more freely, granting it more opportunities. However, the horse finds itself mostly locked to the HO archetype as its rather unimpressive bulk prevents it from getting onto the field more frequently for bulkier teams. Spectrier found itself as one of the most controversial mons on the most recent survey with a 7.5 from the qualified playerbase, but only a 5.77 from the general one. As such, the council decided to put Spectrier's fate into the hands of the community.

Spectrier has risen up to be one of the strongest attackers in Ubers UU following the ban of Zacian. With its base 130 Speed, Spectrier threatens to outspeed almost the entire metagame unboosted, and is faster than everything except Iron Bundle, Regieleki, and Mewtwo holding Heavy Duty Boots under Sticky Webs. Spectrier leverages its newly found elite speed tier to put an immense amount of pressure on most team structures, using its base 145 Special Attack stat and Ghost STAB. In a tier lacking consistent Dark and Normal types since the rise of HO has pushed both Arceus-Dark and Terapagos out of their previously dominant meta positions, Spectrier's Nasty Plot boosted Shadow Balls threaten most teams' defensive backbones. Anything that doesn't fold to STAB Shadow Ball is often quickly dispatched by Spectrier's coverage of choice, Draining Kiss. While Draining Kiss is only 50 BP, its all Spectrier needs to maul defensive cores backed by Dark Types that would otherwise hinder its sweep. Boosted to 60 BP by Tera Fairy, Spectrier's Draining Kiss also serves as a way to heal off the Life Orb recoil that it ubiquitously holds. In the last move slot, Spectrier has a choice of a few moves like Taunt, Will-o-Wisp, Substitute, and Disable; with Taunt being the most preferred to prevent Defog or recovery attempts.

This isn't to say Spectrier is without any flaws. The horse is a 1-trick-pony as its set will almost always be known before a game even starts with 3 of its moves locked in immediately. While its Ghost Typing allows for multiple potential set up targets, Spectrier's aforementioned lackluster bulk makes it difficult to find safe opportunities to set up a Nasty Plot, especially versus opposing offense teams. Without Sticky Webs, this rather poor bulk leaves Spectrier very vulnerable to revenge killing attempts from opposing Scarfers as well as naturally faster Pokemon like Deoxys. The meta has also adapted around the horse's presence on these offensive teams, as many teams are opting to run Tera Normal Arceus forms, often referred to as Ekiller, as a means of staving of Spectrier. Arceus' fantastic bulk and new Normal Typing allow it to be unafraid of anything Spectrier commonly runs, bar for the rare Will-o-Wisp, and can even use Spectrier as an opportunity to set up Swords Dances if Spectrier is not carrying Taunt. Other Pokemon like Specially Defensive Terapagos and Alolan-Muk have started to pop up in attempts to hold off Spectrier defensively, while not having to sacrifice tera to do so. The lack of set diversity hurts Spectrier a lot, as it means it will almost always be checked by these Pokemon.

Given all of this, the council elected to vote on Spectrier which can be seen below:
NameBigFatMantisDorronFcFinchelyFishyRoadsFritoLeo JusticeRasche
SpectrierSuspectSuspectSuspectSuspectSuspectSuspectAbstainSuspect

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Ubers UU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played Ubers UU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2770. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 3. The suspect test will go on for about 14 days, lasting until Tuesday, June 24th at 11:59 pm GMT-4.

There will be 2 suspect tours in the Unofficial Metagames room on Pokemon showdown! on the 21st and 22nd of June at 2pm GMT -4 and 8pm GMT-5 respectively, and the winner & runner up will qualify for requirements.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the Ubers UU council.
 
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The horse is a 1-trick-pony​
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I haven't even done 5 suspects on this site and somehow this ghost horse is causing problems again (albeit without its rider) so without further ado lets get into the much expected ramble.

I was a bit torn at first, but having given it some thought I am very likely to vote Do Not Ban on Spectrier, but I do believe it is borderline. I think the announcement post explains the issues with spectrier quite well, and why it justifiably has been put up for a suspect. And just to make it clear, my reasoning is not based around the fact I believe Roaring Moon is more problematic and a more broken part of this metagame as thats something I've been vocal about.

Spectrier has some broken aspects for sure, it has the ability to decisively end a game in ways few other mons on H/O can match. It can certainly feel very warping at times, and also can feel too punishing for what feels like minor mistakes. I certainly think Spectrier is it's most broken on Webs, where its offensive counterplay becomes the most limited (however webs outside of Spectrier feel inconsistent compared to the much better Spikes H/O, and this kind of takes points off of me wanting to ban Spectrier. If webs were stronger, my opinion would likely be different, i'd put them as a solid B tier archetype). However the main reason I don't think Spectrier is broken enough to warrant a ban is its predictability. Plot (and i guess cm), Shadow Ball, and Draining Kiss are all basically mandatory, with some slight room for variation in Sub, Taunt, etc. This means that going into a matchup you almost always are aware of how you will have to manage Spec. Scarfers, Priority, or keeping a bulky mon healthy and pivoting to ensure it cant get that crucial boost going.

This might feel somewhat restrictive in the teambuilder on paper, but in my personal experience its never really felt that way. Common mons such as E-Killer, Terapagos, and most scarfers in the tier are able to reliably put pressure on an unboosted Spec, H/O can out offense it, and screens in particular can use Grimmsnarl to limit the early setup as well. I rarely find myself without a Spectrier answer even when I don't think about it as much, because ultimately Spectrier is checked in play more then the builder as the only thing that can consistently call itself an offensive "counter" is prob just Deoxys or Scarf Lando (in terms of what I like to run anyways, there are def a few more). In recent tour play, many of the games we have seen Spectrier win with little to no counterplay are often due to luck (crits breaking through a full health arc, etc) or admitted misplays by the player.

I don't think Spectrier is broken enough to warrant a ban as for the reasons outlined I think it still allows for skillful play, by creating a fairly reasonable game of resource management (and identifying which resources manage spectrier) to keep it in check. I don't believe it disrupts skill balances we have going on right now, and while I can't say I will be furious if it goes I don't see it as problematic enough to vote ban myself. That might change, but on this lovely dawn of spectrier test day 2 thats where my thoughts lie. I know I didn't cover some things, like its natural speed etc but I did hit on the main points I'm taking into consideration that weren't gone into as in depth in the OP which did a good job of explaining the basics anyways. Happy suspecting uubers!
 
Well, first time doing suispects here, so you can take my opinion seriously or not. At the moment, I find Spectrier a polarizing theme, as I can see this thing be a problem and an usual sweeper albeit unproblematic. So here are my littletheoretical thoughts about Spectrier and its presence in UUbers:

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➤ To Ban Spectrier:Spectrier::

It is to note that Spectrier has an incredible 130 Speed and a powerful 145 Special Attack. GMono-Ghost is still a stroong type to have, especially on a offensive side, being immune to the common Extreme Speed. Not to mention Spectrier has the ability Grim Knight, boosting its Special Attack by one stage every time it knocks out an opponent. It has Nasty Plot to boost its terrific Special Attack even further, coverage in Draining Kiss to deal with Dark types and Taunt to screw up with its walls. I mean, these factors could be very detrimental for a playeer and his/her team if the player doesn't know how to deal with Spectrier. Spectrier can be unpredictable as well: it can be either Choice Scarf or Nasty Plot or it can just use Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical Pókemon such as Arceus and Dragonite. Plus the (most viable) Dark types in this tier are Roaring Moon Samurott-Hisui and Urshifu which Spectrier both outspeeds. Sure, Urshifu and Hamurott has Sucker Puch, but Spectrier can just either Substitute, cripple it with Will-O-Wisp or just Tera into Fairy. As its Item it can use Choice Scarf (If god forbid someone uses Choice Specs on it), Leftovers or Life Orb. Sprectrier benefits from these items, whenever it needs offemnsive boost or longevity. Spectrier COULD be switched out, but when it tera'S to Fairy and uses Taunt, THAT'S where the problems begin.
Here are some replays showing Spectrier terryfing (and problematic) presence, bringing questions as if it needs to be banned:

Replay 1: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2384158830

Replay 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2383505063

Replay 3: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ubersuu-2384352600



1749836206562.png


➤ To NOT Ban Spectrier:Spectrier::

Just as Spectrier is amazing, it still has some problems to face. Spectrier isn't perfect as it has an underwhelming Defence and its Special Defence along with its HP aren't exactly fabolous either, leaving it being vulnerable to attacks, making it having hard time to set itself up to win. Just like I said, Spectrier COULD terastalize itself to avoid Dark hits of killing it, but at the cost of being vulnerable to Exteme Speed, which is pretty common in this tier. Plus it gets walled form Pókemon like Clodsire, Ting-Lu and tera'd Giratina. Plus if it uses Choice Scarf, it's locked into a move and if it uses Life Orb it runs on a timer: it has Taunt and Nasty Plot, but that doesnt guarantee that it'll win automatically. Another important thing is that Spectrier relies a lil' bit tooo much on Tera: if Tera is alrready used in another Pókemon, it can STILL be effective, just not gamebreaking as some people say.

Overall, I think the pros on using Spectrier are far more efficient than the cons, leaving it to be a little to much for the UUbers tier. As I am still over the fence, I am leaning more on the BAN side. Though I am interested as what other players would say about Spectrier. If you agree or disagreee on my opinions, that's totally fine! Still I am not sure if I am gonna make it into voting....

:Zamazenta: Thanks for reading! Take care! :Zamazenta:
 
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quick thoughts, dont think theres actually that much to say.

The tier is pretty clearly not in the best spot and hasnt been in one for a while, id prob say pre-zac glowup was the last time. While idt spectrier is the root of all evil for the tier i do believe something has to be done in the form of tiering action, and a spectrier ban is a pretty easy (not set on best) path to take. HO has been running the tier for a hot minute and removing one of the most suffocating threats from its arsenal is sure to be a help. The combonation of its speed, power, snowballing, and anti counterplay options does make the horse a quite often nightmare to deal with, and it can often feel overwhelming for builds, not to mention the volatility it injects into HO mirrors because of said speed and snowballing. While idt a spec ban will solve the tiers problems entirely i do think it is a good starting point to try and improve the tier.
 
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Would you believe this is the first time I've ever gotten reqs on a test in 15 years? Thank you OceanicGamer for giving me the avalugg team. I think I intend to vote Ban, Spectrier to me doesn't seem to add much to the tier while being infuriatingly oppressive in the late-game. Even its default counterplay in my mind isn't entirely meaningful - Sucker Punch can be played around (though I recognize it's useful, god help you if you face Wisp and not Taunt, though), defensive mons like Mage/Tina are needed to accomplish other tasks earlier and/or simply take too much. Tera can help, but lord help if they just recover a third of the damage off via DKiss or something. I dunno. I don't really see what this thing adds to the tier that justifies the pain inflicts.

I do see reasons for voting DNB, though. It's about as linear as something can be, and seeing it on Team Preview does mean that you mentally are aware that you can't just sac all of your Mage health, or let Deo die for free, or keep Tera in your back pocket. It does have responses, and a well-built Ubers UU team isn't going to get 6-0'd by Spectrier from turn 1. I think that Spectrier can be responded to, and it can add an interesting resource management game to games it is present in, I just where I'm currently sitting don't think that I agree with these things in full or see them as sufficient enough responses.

If it doesn't get banned, I don't think this tier is ruined or whatever, but I do think that it already is oppressive and detracts from the metagame, and I worry that as the meta can develop further via ladder/UMPL/UbersUUPL, we'll find ways to delinear Spectrier or better support it - I didn't see Webs often/effectively used during my ladder runs, and I think that there are ways that move/item choice on Spectrier can be loosened up (I genuinely do not think NP is mandatory) to better respond to counterplay. I think I intend to vote ban here - removing Spectrier I think can only really improve the metagame, and I think its presence is inherently unhealthy to the metagame.
 
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Despite what my record says this is an undefeated run, Celeste stole points from me while i was afk (cause i set timer on myself and turned all notifs off lmao).

Anyways, voting DNB on spec. Meta is already HO oriented, and we have seen enough adaptation to keep spec in check. Strong priority mons like sciz, dnite and palafin are all good in the meta rn and prevent you from losing to spectrier regardless of its tera. I think mons like scarf chi-yu, hsamu and urshi-ss are decent in this meta and force advantageous positions/teras vs spec. Mons like terapagos and clod heavily pressure spectrier and both fit nicely on non-offense builds whilst still serving utility roles outside of checking spectrier.
I don't agree with most of the reasons to ban it. Spectrier is not unpredictable. Most HO spectriers are LO sball, dkiss with some form of utility in sub, taunt or wisp. spec isn't bulky enough to reliably get its utility off and set up vs most Arc forms. It will always have to fear strong priority and scarf revenge killers even if it does manage to trade preferably. Its scarf set is a horrible RKer and is basically a MU fish. Its bulky leftovers sets look great on paper but they are just budget CM arcs and lose to bulky DD mons all the same whilst still not being bulky enough to tank hits and prevent being RKed. if you have a well built team to account for HO, you will naturally have tools to beat spectrier.

Lastly, Banning spectrier just because it is viable on HO and you are fed up of HO being strong in the tier is a horrible reason. Most of the defining mons in the tier from Arceus to the OUBLs are offensive leaning. Ubers tiers are often fast-paced with strong, hard to switch into threats. Ubers UU isn't going to be immune to this. While we should ban pokemon which are uncompetitive/ warp the metagame around themselves in an unhealthy way, lets not ban pokemon for the crime of being good in a HO meta.

DNB spectrier
Team i used: https://pokepast.es/42f3df918c2158ea
 
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Despite what my record says this is an undefeated run, Celeste stole points from me while i was afk (cause i set timer on myself and turned all notifs off lmao).

Anyways, voting DNB on spec. Meta is already HO oriented, and we have seen enough adaptation to keep spec in check. Strong priority mons like sciz, dnite and palafin are all good in the meta rn and prevent you from losing to spectrier regardless of its tera. I think mons like scarf chi-yu, hsamu and urshi-ss are decent in this meta and force advantageous positions/teras vs spec. Mons like terapagos and clod heavily pressure spectrier and both fit nicely on non-offense builds whilst still serving utility roles outside of checking spectrier.
I don't agree with most of the reasons to ban it. Spectrier is not unpredictable. Most HO spectriers are LO sball, dkiss with some form of utility in sub, taunt or wisp. spec isn't bulky enough to reliably get its utility off and set up vs most Arc forms. It will always have to fear strong priority and scarf revenge killers even if it does manage to trade preferably. Its scarf set is a horrible RKer and is basically a MU fish. Its bulky leftovers sets look great on paper but they are just budget CM arcs and lose to bulky DD mons all the same whilst still not being bulky enough to tank hits and prevent being RKed. if you have a well built team to account for HO, you will naturally have tools to beat spectrier.

Lastly, Banning spectrier just because it is viable on HO and you are fed up of HO being strong in the tier is a horrible reason. Most of the defining mons in the tier from Arceus to the OUBLs are offensive leaning. Ubers tiers are often fast-paced with strong, hard to switch into threats. Ubers UU isn't going to be immune to this. While we should ban pokemon which are uncompetitive/ warp the metagame around themselves in an unhealthy way, lets not ban pokemon for the crime of being good in a HO meta.

DNB spectrier
Team i used: https://pokepast.es/42f3df918c2158ea
I TRIED TO TURN IT OFF IM SORRY
 
Got reqs pretty easy with Frito's *slightly tweaked* Scizor HO. That thing rips through HO like no-one's business.

Anyway, Spectrier. I think this mon's potential has not been explored very well. It has a surprising amount of utility in its sparse movepool, especially for a HO-focused meta. The horse showed up once every 3 games or so on my run, always with the same set ( TFairy Plot DKiss Sball and Taunt/Sub). I only ran into a different set once and it absolutely cooked me because of how caught off guard I was. This was an abomination with Hex, Wisp, Disable and Sub with Lefties. The lack of dark and normal types in the tier makes Sball really spammable, especially from a 145 spatk stat and longevity through speed limiting its checks, or healing through lefties or dkiss.

Is it overpowered? I don't think so, especially in the context of our tier. Thinking back, it's kinda funny to me how much support Spectrier is getting to be banned, given how reluctant we were to ban Zacian. Zacian was infinitely worse than Spectrier in both raw sweeping potential and set variety. Spectrier has clear weaknesses: it's frail, weak to priority moves, has only 2 real options for attacking moves, and needs to invest tera against anything it can't OHKO. There are hard checks like Spdf Terapagos and just running tNormal that aren't being used, so I have to assume that it isn't that oppressive. I just don't see it. Unless anyone else can convince me, I'll be voting DNB.
 
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