Celever post when I wake up a bit more, but like, just because I call out bad reasoning on someone doesn’t really mean I’m defending them, the tldr of my celever thoughts are “wow this guy has been shockingly unproductive despite how many posts they have”
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NOC E.G.O Wielders Mafia - A 17P Role Madness (Game Thread) - MAFIA WIN
- Thread starter HydrogenHydreigon
- Start date
ck i was 100% serious wrt my 4 word answer for why I was voting des
Votecount 1.3
NightEmerald (2): pulsar512b, ImaginaryNeon
a fairy (2): skippergamez, CrreamyKitty
des121 (1): NightEmerald
Celever (1): StupidFlandrs48
wisteriapurple (1): AngryPidgeon
Evie (1): Celever
Deadline is in approximately 9 hours.
Note that this will be the last votecount for many hours, likely until near EOD.
NightEmerald (2): pulsar512b, ImaginaryNeon
a fairy (2): skippergamez, CrreamyKitty
des121 (1): NightEmerald
Celever (1): StupidFlandrs48
wisteriapurple (1): AngryPidgeon
Evie (1): Celever
Deadline is in approximately 9 hours.
Note that this will be the last votecount for many hours, likely until near EOD.
goodnight hydro thank u
##Vote: Unvote
joey lock town
Okay. Thank you for correcting me.
I never caught the second one (Flandrs on wis), since the wording of
was very missable within the already kinda bloated wallpost of #224, especially given how unclear the wording is.
I'm apricity posting rn so I can't case
While reading I pretty much just wrote down whatever thoughts I was having in general and on each person. Some of the later thoughts may contradict the former thoughts if my opinions are changing
General thoughts:
As has been mentioned when I started out in NOC I was a no-vote d1 defender, but Tommy has successfully drilled into my head that town always wants to vote day 1 so I no longer hold that opinion. I still hate determining d1 votes because it feels like everything is so swingy and nothing is concrete but you will not catch me supporting no-vote d1s anymore (StupidFlandrs48 look at my character development). I don't think anyone in the thread who has been speaking for or against a no-vote looks townie or scum since it's basically just a discussion of mafia philosophy in general rather than anything game specific. I've personally argued both for and against no-vote d1s as both alignments within my history.
Considering day 1 info and making distinction between scum/3p doesn't really do much imo, in my mafia philosophy a 3p* player plays day 1 exactly like they would as a townie
* excluding 3p like ToS witch who are specifically aligned with a faction, but that basically just makes them an uninformed member of that faction
Some of the below are getting long, length =/= confidence in my reads it's more just that they have a lot of content that feels relevant
What is RVS I feel like somehow there are new acronyms to learn every single game I play. I assume from context it means something about the early stage of the game where there's basically nothing to go on.
Player thoughts:
NightEmerald - I don't totally agree with his thoughts in #137, I feel like a common mafia strategy is to throw out a few townreads for random reasons day 1 to lay a little flattery/pocketing/good will. And that applies both to his analysis of skipper's read on Celever and his read on skipper itself. I also find #135 kind of odd because obviously the answer was going to be yes, we always want people to share more information. Him returning wis's town read by townreading wis (#222) feels kind of transactional to me - but I think maybe I'm missing context of a prior relationship/past games here. His interaction with Flandrs on page 10 feels very important to me almost to the point that I would say it's t/s but I don't necessarily know which is which. If he does end up scum I think it looks questionable for Celever as well given them both interacting against flandrs. And then distances from Celever in #270. #485 is like defensive in a weirdly angry way that I feel like is a major mood shift for NE, which imo is a red flag.
Ch3mdah - The immediate no-vote (#40) makes sense for a new player, I feel like new people of any alignment fall into that trap. I didn't get much of anything else from them so far.
wisteriapurple - The combination of competent player vibes and person I don't know means any read I try to make on her day 1 is kind of a crapshoot. Early posting to push the thread in the direction of actual gameplay feels townie on Smogon but also is probably just normal behavior for any alignment on other websites. Readlist in #157 seems decent but I don't love the "scum is in the inactives" thing, because I think there's plenty of posters that aren't really giving strong enough town vibes to make that conclusion. I like her going against the grain in #349 re: a fairy because I think discussion around a fairy was kinda derailing the thread and she was actively trying to get it back on track. #533 probably best post of the thread so far and besides NE (which is a meta read from her so it makes sense we disagree) all the reads I think I like.
apricity - The gambit of liking posts and not posting is totally NAI. "it'll be frustrating for people to get a read on me" from #483 is accurate, I don't feel there's any info to read him yet. I do NOT think him taking this angle is any indication of scum/town because I could absolutely see him swinging big from any direction.
Celever - Didn't really have any takeaways on him from his early posting even though there was a good amount. I would like to hear more on Flandrs probscum (#151) bc I did not get that vibe at all and this felt like it came out of nowhere. I don't love his concept in #173 and doubling down on it in #184 after mostly ignoring CK's explanation kind of gives "I'm looking for a reason to scumread you and I think I've found it" vibes. #192 alleviates most of that concern when he goes back after rereading which I believe is genuine, whether he realized it was a bad angle or legitimately just changed his mind I'm not sure. But then CK being a top townread in #198 feels like kind of a stark reversal? Would like to hear a bit more on that. Agree with his take on Evie in #314/315. Feeling strongly that a fairy and Evie are linked seems like a stretch to me but it's fair that they've had some similar opinions.
pulsar512b - #123 gives townie vibes imo, if pulsar was scum pulsar has an easy reason consistent with her meta to throw a bit of early sus, but she instead turned it into a townlean. Didn't really get a lot from the rest of her posts yet
StupidFlandrs48 - I like his line of questioning in #113, feels uninformed to me and I also think it does pretty naturally unpair him with AP and I don't feel like that was on purpose. I do feel like him voting Celever in #224 is pretty flat OMGUS because I think the take from Celever is very normal for him. As mentioned in NE I think he may be t/s with NE based off page 10. I agree with AP in #475 that Flandrs is often scumread early on in this scenario (for pretty valid reasons tbf) but ends up being town.
Evie - Starting off asking how many mafia there are (#41) could be a slight misdirect to imply she is not informed when she actually is. Celever mentions this later but I promise I wrote that before I read his post. #446 is decent reads but it's mostly sruff that's inoffensive. #508 is kind of odd, could definitely see how this appears defensive from being linked with a fairy. I feel like trying to bait someone into pocketing you is questionable? But I don't think it's completely out of the question. Especially given that her most recent mafia experience involved her getting pocketed it makes sense that she would try to alter her playstyle in a way that she is more aware of pocketing. Also for the record I wrote that before reading her explanation of it in #565.
a fairy - I don't like #288 and similar and I don't imagine anyone does but it's pretty consistent with fairy's d1s imo. I think she is being over-sussed for it. Would like to hear more about #352, specifically the skip scumread and why you came to the conclusion that both flandrs and celever are townlean. Talking about why people would be inactive (minus hal) is a nothingburger, plenty of reasons why people would be inactive independent of alignment.
des121 - Got to the end of my readback and didn't have anything written down for des.
CrreamyKitty - I like the callout of wisteriapurple in #156, I don't agree with the conclusion of a wp scumread, but that I think pointing it out is a very townie thing to do. Readlist seems fine and consistent with all the justifications he provided. Pushed back against Celever very logically instead of getting defensive is a + to me. The whole stretch of posts on page 21 I don't totally know how to feel about, I feel like they're okay posts to make but I don't think I agree with most of his conclusions, especially settling on a fairy as a vote.
ImaginaryNeon - I don't really like the d1 3p-hunting in #167, I feel like that type of thing is more likely to be on the mind of a mafia member than a townie. I do like him being critical of the Flandrs vote (#219) and pushing for information there. I like post #461 but don't necessarily agree - I think NE wrote it independently but agree that he could've been pushing a narrative.
AngryPidgeon - I generally feel like you wouldn't enter the thread theorizing how many mafia there are (#57 and on) as a mafia, not that you couldn't do that but the entry read a bit townie to me. In #115 declaring Celever a probtown feels weird to me, I do understand the justification in #119 but I don't really agree, and I do think that would be a reasonable way to distance them, but that's kinda tinfoiling at this point. Also the final conclusion of "So if we end up flipping 4 scum and the game is still going I would give him a hard look for sure." is way too strong because obviously Celever is not that level of townie yet. I like #243 mostly because it just said the opinion I already wrote about skip/NE. A lot of good content in #499 but I would say I probably agree with less than half of it, but who knows which one of us is right.
skippergamez - As mentioned in NE I feel like his posts (#118, #155) contribute some basic townreads that don't have a ton of substance which could definitely be a scum thing. Don't love the backtracking/wishy-washiness in #284. #300 I feel is bringing up some things that aren't super relevant to try to add content. Him doubling down on a fairy in #325 and earlier for standard a fairy gameplay is further cementing my opinion. #552 is a good breakdown of an Evie case, I think it was kind of low hanging fruit still tho.
Dead By Daylight - Soft defense of Flandrs in #268 being his first contribution is a little weird but I guess it makes some sense if he wasn't caught up by then but was just reading recent posts.
M2H - not sure I understand the CK focus on entry (#456) but I might just not be understanding why. Would like further clarification on this.
In conclusion:
Townlean
CrreamyKitty - I like a lot of his posts and reasoning, putting townlean instead of townread just because I don't really agree with all of his conclusions but I could definitely be the one wrong there
StupidFlandrs48 - just vibes really. Agree with a good amount of his stuff and don't really see a good case against him
ImaginaryNeon - Probably would've had Neon neutral but his pushing on NE put him over the edge to townlean
wisteriapurple - as I said I don't think any d1 read on her from me is going to be accurate, but I like the content so far and want to see more.
pulsar512b - not a lot to go off of yet but this is the gut lean
Neutral
des121 - no content
M2H - not enough content for me to read yet
Dead by Daylight - not enough content to read yet
apricity - basically impossible to read so far
Ch3mdah - new player, not enough content d1 to read
a fairy - not really someone who is readable day 1
Scumlean
Celever - mostly leaning him here because I'm pairing him with NE, I'd pretty much never vote Cel D1 and I think this read could easily change because I'm mixed on a lot of his content.
Evie - I have some negatives on her and not many positives. Would definitely like to see more content.
Scumread
NightEmerald - Only really had negatives to say about him in my readthrough.
skippergamez - I feel that skipper is taking low-hanging fruit and trying to look like he's contributing when not really doing much. Could easily see all of his suses being just him being hypercritical of real townies.
General thoughts:
As has been mentioned when I started out in NOC I was a no-vote d1 defender, but Tommy has successfully drilled into my head that town always wants to vote day 1 so I no longer hold that opinion. I still hate determining d1 votes because it feels like everything is so swingy and nothing is concrete but you will not catch me supporting no-vote d1s anymore (StupidFlandrs48 look at my character development). I don't think anyone in the thread who has been speaking for or against a no-vote looks townie or scum since it's basically just a discussion of mafia philosophy in general rather than anything game specific. I've personally argued both for and against no-vote d1s as both alignments within my history.
Considering day 1 info and making distinction between scum/3p doesn't really do much imo, in my mafia philosophy a 3p* player plays day 1 exactly like they would as a townie
* excluding 3p like ToS witch who are specifically aligned with a faction, but that basically just makes them an uninformed member of that faction
Some of the below are getting long, length =/= confidence in my reads it's more just that they have a lot of content that feels relevant
What is RVS I feel like somehow there are new acronyms to learn every single game I play. I assume from context it means something about the early stage of the game where there's basically nothing to go on.
Player thoughts:
NightEmerald - I don't totally agree with his thoughts in #137, I feel like a common mafia strategy is to throw out a few townreads for random reasons day 1 to lay a little flattery/pocketing/good will. And that applies both to his analysis of skipper's read on Celever and his read on skipper itself. I also find #135 kind of odd because obviously the answer was going to be yes, we always want people to share more information. Him returning wis's town read by townreading wis (#222) feels kind of transactional to me - but I think maybe I'm missing context of a prior relationship/past games here. His interaction with Flandrs on page 10 feels very important to me almost to the point that I would say it's t/s but I don't necessarily know which is which. If he does end up scum I think it looks questionable for Celever as well given them both interacting against flandrs. And then distances from Celever in #270. #485 is like defensive in a weirdly angry way that I feel like is a major mood shift for NE, which imo is a red flag.
Ch3mdah - The immediate no-vote (#40) makes sense for a new player, I feel like new people of any alignment fall into that trap. I didn't get much of anything else from them so far.
wisteriapurple - The combination of competent player vibes and person I don't know means any read I try to make on her day 1 is kind of a crapshoot. Early posting to push the thread in the direction of actual gameplay feels townie on Smogon but also is probably just normal behavior for any alignment on other websites. Readlist in #157 seems decent but I don't love the "scum is in the inactives" thing, because I think there's plenty of posters that aren't really giving strong enough town vibes to make that conclusion. I like her going against the grain in #349 re: a fairy because I think discussion around a fairy was kinda derailing the thread and she was actively trying to get it back on track. #533 probably best post of the thread so far and besides NE (which is a meta read from her so it makes sense we disagree) all the reads I think I like.
apricity - The gambit of liking posts and not posting is totally NAI. "it'll be frustrating for people to get a read on me" from #483 is accurate, I don't feel there's any info to read him yet. I do NOT think him taking this angle is any indication of scum/town because I could absolutely see him swinging big from any direction.
Celever - Didn't really have any takeaways on him from his early posting even though there was a good amount. I would like to hear more on Flandrs probscum (#151) bc I did not get that vibe at all and this felt like it came out of nowhere. I don't love his concept in #173 and doubling down on it in #184 after mostly ignoring CK's explanation kind of gives "I'm looking for a reason to scumread you and I think I've found it" vibes. #192 alleviates most of that concern when he goes back after rereading which I believe is genuine, whether he realized it was a bad angle or legitimately just changed his mind I'm not sure. But then CK being a top townread in #198 feels like kind of a stark reversal? Would like to hear a bit more on that. Agree with his take on Evie in #314/315. Feeling strongly that a fairy and Evie are linked seems like a stretch to me but it's fair that they've had some similar opinions.
pulsar512b - #123 gives townie vibes imo, if pulsar was scum pulsar has an easy reason consistent with her meta to throw a bit of early sus, but she instead turned it into a townlean. Didn't really get a lot from the rest of her posts yet
StupidFlandrs48 - I like his line of questioning in #113, feels uninformed to me and I also think it does pretty naturally unpair him with AP and I don't feel like that was on purpose. I do feel like him voting Celever in #224 is pretty flat OMGUS because I think the take from Celever is very normal for him. As mentioned in NE I think he may be t/s with NE based off page 10. I agree with AP in #475 that Flandrs is often scumread early on in this scenario (for pretty valid reasons tbf) but ends up being town.
Evie - Starting off asking how many mafia there are (#41) could be a slight misdirect to imply she is not informed when she actually is. Celever mentions this later but I promise I wrote that before I read his post. #446 is decent reads but it's mostly sruff that's inoffensive. #508 is kind of odd, could definitely see how this appears defensive from being linked with a fairy. I feel like trying to bait someone into pocketing you is questionable? But I don't think it's completely out of the question. Especially given that her most recent mafia experience involved her getting pocketed it makes sense that she would try to alter her playstyle in a way that she is more aware of pocketing. Also for the record I wrote that before reading her explanation of it in #565.
a fairy - I don't like #288 and similar and I don't imagine anyone does but it's pretty consistent with fairy's d1s imo. I think she is being over-sussed for it. Would like to hear more about #352, specifically the skip scumread and why you came to the conclusion that both flandrs and celever are townlean. Talking about why people would be inactive (minus hal) is a nothingburger, plenty of reasons why people would be inactive independent of alignment.
des121 - Got to the end of my readback and didn't have anything written down for des.
CrreamyKitty - I like the callout of wisteriapurple in #156, I don't agree with the conclusion of a wp scumread, but that I think pointing it out is a very townie thing to do. Readlist seems fine and consistent with all the justifications he provided. Pushed back against Celever very logically instead of getting defensive is a + to me. The whole stretch of posts on page 21 I don't totally know how to feel about, I feel like they're okay posts to make but I don't think I agree with most of his conclusions, especially settling on a fairy as a vote.
ImaginaryNeon - I don't really like the d1 3p-hunting in #167, I feel like that type of thing is more likely to be on the mind of a mafia member than a townie. I do like him being critical of the Flandrs vote (#219) and pushing for information there. I like post #461 but don't necessarily agree - I think NE wrote it independently but agree that he could've been pushing a narrative.
AngryPidgeon - I generally feel like you wouldn't enter the thread theorizing how many mafia there are (#57 and on) as a mafia, not that you couldn't do that but the entry read a bit townie to me. In #115 declaring Celever a probtown feels weird to me, I do understand the justification in #119 but I don't really agree, and I do think that would be a reasonable way to distance them, but that's kinda tinfoiling at this point. Also the final conclusion of "So if we end up flipping 4 scum and the game is still going I would give him a hard look for sure." is way too strong because obviously Celever is not that level of townie yet. I like #243 mostly because it just said the opinion I already wrote about skip/NE. A lot of good content in #499 but I would say I probably agree with less than half of it, but who knows which one of us is right.
skippergamez - As mentioned in NE I feel like his posts (#118, #155) contribute some basic townreads that don't have a ton of substance which could definitely be a scum thing. Don't love the backtracking/wishy-washiness in #284. #300 I feel is bringing up some things that aren't super relevant to try to add content. Him doubling down on a fairy in #325 and earlier for standard a fairy gameplay is further cementing my opinion. #552 is a good breakdown of an Evie case, I think it was kind of low hanging fruit still tho.
Dead By Daylight - Soft defense of Flandrs in #268 being his first contribution is a little weird but I guess it makes some sense if he wasn't caught up by then but was just reading recent posts.
M2H - not sure I understand the CK focus on entry (#456) but I might just not be understanding why. Would like further clarification on this.
In conclusion:
Townlean
CrreamyKitty - I like a lot of his posts and reasoning, putting townlean instead of townread just because I don't really agree with all of his conclusions but I could definitely be the one wrong there
StupidFlandrs48 - just vibes really. Agree with a good amount of his stuff and don't really see a good case against him
ImaginaryNeon - Probably would've had Neon neutral but his pushing on NE put him over the edge to townlean
wisteriapurple - as I said I don't think any d1 read on her from me is going to be accurate, but I like the content so far and want to see more.
pulsar512b - not a lot to go off of yet but this is the gut lean
Neutral
des121 - no content
M2H - not enough content for me to read yet
Dead by Daylight - not enough content to read yet
apricity - basically impossible to read so far
Ch3mdah - new player, not enough content d1 to read
a fairy - not really someone who is readable day 1
Scumlean
Celever - mostly leaning him here because I'm pairing him with NE, I'd pretty much never vote Cel D1 and I think this read could easily change because I'm mixed on a lot of his content.
Evie - I have some negatives on her and not many positives. Would definitely like to see more content.
Scumread
NightEmerald - Only really had negatives to say about him in my readthrough.
skippergamez - I feel that skipper is taking low-hanging fruit and trying to look like he's contributing when not really doing much. Could easily see all of his suses being just him being hypercritical of real townies.
Edited to add AP, idk how I missed them because I literally had a checklist going as I put everyone on
saying things and then saying "oh but it could be NAI" is like the definition of wishy washy
obviously it's because you're scumbuds but we can ignore that if you want
holy shit did you know you can highlight part of a post and then there's a reply button that'll just quote the bit you highlighted
that's a crazyyyy feature I'm p sure it's new with the last big forum update
I did it by accident
anyway
what are your thoughts on hal's actual entrance and wallpost though. I still don't really feel like it's a big swing with how it's played out, do you disagree?
tbf mate we're talking about <200 post timeline here, I was being a lil goofy with the scumread I was voting bc placing votes is fun yk how it is get things moving
one of the things I'm very partial to about wisteria is that the overall vibe of the thread is something I agreed with, the conversation p much felt like a buncha town talking to each other so her conclusion of "therefore the scum are in the inactives" is rational even if I don't fully get on board with that conclusion almost ever bc it's a p free conclusion to draw if you're scum and you and/or your buddies are just posting well
so throwing a stick of TNT into the townleans discussing idly conversation to spice things up is good strategy as far as I'm concerned
since then I have to say I haven't been particularly moved by CK one way or the other. like they might still be town, there's a decent chance they are ! I don't really know their posts haven't been infiltrating my brain at all, a slot I need to reassess
I do think there are reasons to link me and Emerald I've kinda been vibing with him this game bc I like him and it's cool to see him investing in NOC. I also do probably think he's town but it might be better to say did there, bc his recent posting (i.e. today irl) has been uh, a little whack
I don't think this is one of them though, I went back to look at page 10 and there's only one post from me on that page about Flandrs and it was a quote response to Flandrs' OMGUS. Like me and Emerald talked on that page about skipper and stuff. So this phrasing seems a bit weird but eh wonder if you have thoughts or clarifications for this
yeah that's fair enough, I just thought going from sussing CK decently hard to having them in your top town category within 10 posts was a bit sudden. But I can see why your opinion would change within those posts and I can understand CK moving up on the list just would've expected him to be lower
i dont really have any specific reads but i think ne is a bit scummy as neon argued in 461, ill have more meaningful ones once im not trying to decipher crumbs from bread eaten on an ouija board