That's just Weavile things. That doesn't have to do with Tang. There are a lot of things that just die to Weavile if it gets the flinch.
-
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Ruffles
- Start date
Our next topic are the lower ranked Steel types
C+
75.
Jirachi
C
79.
Aggron-Mega
C-
88.
Cobalion
D
94.
Steelix-Mega
96.
Empoleon
Defensive steel types are interesting because they all somewhat compete with Excadrill and Mega Metagross, making the economy very hard for them. Not to mention Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Bisharp, and MScizor.
Me personally, I do not think Steelix should move up. Aggron and Jirachi should stay or even drop a rank IMO, even though I'm a big fan of Aggron. Cobalion is pretty decent in a Weavile infested tier and the fact that it can keep rocks up on Excadrill + it has volt switch is pretty good.
Finally, Empoleon I think is severely underrated and I think it should be given the rank of C. Empoleon is really great on offense. If using SpD, you can be a one time check to devestating pokemon like Mega Alakazam, Mega Diancie, Volcarona, and Mega Gardevoir, all of which are Pokemon offense struggles a lot with. That is on top of the list of things such as Clefable, Talonflame, and Torn that Empoleon can check without investment. Which brings me to my next point, offensive Empoleon hits really hard especailly in torrent range and has decent coverage plus access to Knock off, making it quite hard to switch in to actually. You can run 1-3 of Defog, Rocks, Knock Off, or Roar on either of the spreads giving it great utility. Not to mention it can run items such as Balloon/Shuca, Eject Button, Custap, or even things like Sitrus or Rocky Helmet. A physically defensive set to pivot on things like Weavile is also concievable.
In short, Empoleon is a great compression role mon especially on offense when living hits and getting off emergency defog/roar/etc. can be very helpful. Looking at C, it does seem to be on the same level for me of the likes of Jellicent and Alakazam (funnily on the same infamous pinsir team). It definitely should be at least C-
C+
75.
JirachiC
79.
Aggron-MegaC-
88.
CobalionD
94.
Steelix-Mega96.
EmpoleonPlease vote on whether a Pokemon should be promoted a rank or why it should stay or even drop (will end up being promoted to the bottom of the next rank). Please provide adequate reasoning on 1) why is it more viable than the ranking suggests, 2) what it provides versus other Pokemon of its type(s), and 3) how it compares to its new cohorts in the new rank
Defensive steel types are interesting because they all somewhat compete with Excadrill and Mega Metagross, making the economy very hard for them. Not to mention Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Bisharp, and MScizor.
Me personally, I do not think Steelix should move up. Aggron and Jirachi should stay or even drop a rank IMO, even though I'm a big fan of Aggron. Cobalion is pretty decent in a Weavile infested tier and the fact that it can keep rocks up on Excadrill + it has volt switch is pretty good.
Finally, Empoleon I think is severely underrated and I think it should be given the rank of C. Empoleon is really great on offense. If using SpD, you can be a one time check to devestating pokemon like Mega Alakazam, Mega Diancie, Volcarona, and Mega Gardevoir, all of which are Pokemon offense struggles a lot with. That is on top of the list of things such as Clefable, Talonflame, and Torn that Empoleon can check without investment. Which brings me to my next point, offensive Empoleon hits really hard especailly in torrent range and has decent coverage plus access to Knock off, making it quite hard to switch in to actually. You can run 1-3 of Defog, Rocks, Knock Off, or Roar on either of the spreads giving it great utility. Not to mention it can run items such as Balloon/Shuca, Eject Button, Custap, or even things like Sitrus or Rocky Helmet. A physically defensive set to pivot on things like Weavile is also concievable.
In short, Empoleon is a great compression role mon especially on offense when living hits and getting off emergency defog/roar/etc. can be very helpful. Looking at C, it does seem to be on the same level for me of the likes of Jellicent and Alakazam (funnily on the same infamous pinsir team). It definitely should be at least C-
I think jirachi C+ (I'm a fan tho I think it could be used more), Aggron Cobalion Steelix where they at and Empoleon higher, it has a legit niche vs current meta and can sort of check a bunch of useful stuff for an offensive core mainly while packing rare but valuable hazard control. Reminds me of SV primarina with no healing but good resistances, custap berry is nice af on Empoleon to give him that little bit of offensive pressure
I haven't used Aggron much so I don't have much to say about it. But of these five I think they should be ordered empoleon coballion jirachi/Aggron and steelix. I honestly think we just replace steelix with another mon or put it at number 100. If you want fat steel phaser aggron does it better. You want strong sand force beater mega garchomp does it better. Exca probably does it better to and its least viable ability to use. I'm in love with coballion and am probably biased but it does beat every single dark type pretty handily while also being a quick and bulky pivot with good support choices like taunt, rocks, and toxic with volt switch to make it a stronger pivot. It can muscle through clef with some atk investment. I think you can justify (haha) having him at C rank. Empoleon at 96 is kind of insulting. Ruffles already spoke on what it does well. Shuca is also an item I've seen do well because just about anything that wants to through and eq at empoleon does not wanna feel a torrent boosted scald. I think C is cool for empoleon. Jirachi is weird. Serene grace hax will always be a thing and getting para on mons is pretty easy with serp, clef, lati,cress and everyones mom running twave. I think jirachi runs into similar problems as celebi only with better typing. I don't think jirachi loses out on being gold because it's a steel type I think it loses out because it's a psychic type it can't keep up with the other psychic types in what they do. Defensive or support? Mew cress tias. Offensive? Gallade meta zam tips. It's not out performing those mons in those roles I think it sits at C- or C at best.
Think Jirachi only worth set is Scarf given the healing wish shenanigans, stuff like 4x steel resists like heatran being really on the most common thing at the moment, and a revenge killer that can put a dent on weavile and mega alakazam very reliably definitely has a lot of value. Pivoting sets are honestly kind of meh mainly how the nature of the meta is just kind of unkind of it. SpDef will always be the goated zam check tho, but for the rest of the meta it just doesnt do well imo.
Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix should be compared directly given the competition of the mega slots, both insane bulk and natural compression honestly have some appeal but mega steelix being part ground is a big counterperk on its value. Not resisting some things like a mono steel mega aggron does is detrimental. Mono Steel Type with Filter is honestly phenomenal, the main perk is the mega slot but mega aggron should be 2 rank highers than mega steelix in this ngl. Check the same things, and does it better. Big fan of mega lix but just gotta admit that aggron has it better.
Cobalion set of resistances are amazing, gotta love TRUE weavile checks, but boy it is weak as a noodle. Only good set is utility imo, and it has the big downside of just being really weak on key situations. Failing to kill mega ttar at times, weakened exca, etc. Excellent glue for some teams but shouldnt be higher than C. Steel/Fight is great vs Weavile, but lackluster vs a lot of other things
Empoleon is immaculate and should be C+ AT LEAST.
Empoleon @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Flash Cannon / Grass Knot
- Hydro Pump / Surf / Whatever water stab you want
- Ice Beam
Been running this set on some specialized offenses and BOY does it put in the work! Amazing hazard control with a phenomenal set of unique resistances for offense. Great pick and I am glad Savouras is on that train.
IMO, Jirachi and Empoleon in C+, keep the rest were they are
Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix should be compared directly given the competition of the mega slots, both insane bulk and natural compression honestly have some appeal but mega steelix being part ground is a big counterperk on its value. Not resisting some things like a mono steel mega aggron does is detrimental. Mono Steel Type with Filter is honestly phenomenal, the main perk is the mega slot but mega aggron should be 2 rank highers than mega steelix in this ngl. Check the same things, and does it better. Big fan of mega lix but just gotta admit that aggron has it better.
Cobalion set of resistances are amazing, gotta love TRUE weavile checks, but boy it is weak as a noodle. Only good set is utility imo, and it has the big downside of just being really weak on key situations. Failing to kill mega ttar at times, weakened exca, etc. Excellent glue for some teams but shouldnt be higher than C. Steel/Fight is great vs Weavile, but lackluster vs a lot of other things
Empoleon is immaculate and should be C+ AT LEAST.
Empoleon @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Flash Cannon / Grass Knot
- Hydro Pump / Surf / Whatever water stab you want
- Ice Beam
Been running this set on some specialized offenses and BOY does it put in the work! Amazing hazard control with a phenomenal set of unique resistances for offense. Great pick and I am glad Savouras is on that train.
IMO, Jirachi and Empoleon in C+, keep the rest were they are
I agree with much of what is being said here, I think mainly I want to demote Jirachi to C, because I find a hard time to justify using it over bulky Excadrill. The scarf set is outclassed by many things and like Aldo said in an era with stuff like Zapdos and TankChomp it feels incredibly ass. Compared to other C+, it definitely doesn't feel as good as Terrakion, Tangrowth, or Gengar, and feels like it belongs more in C with Celebi and Jellicent.
Mega Aggron at C is fine.
Mega Steelix at D is fine.
Empoleon definitely C for now (2 ranks rise up maximum)
As for Cobalion I think C- is slightly too low for it and perhaps C is a better fit.
These are not official just my thoughts, please discuss possibly demoting Jirachi and possibly promoting Cobalion.
Mega Aggron at C is fine.
Mega Steelix at D is fine.
Empoleon definitely C for now (2 ranks rise up maximum)
As for Cobalion I think C- is slightly too low for it and perhaps C is a better fit.
These are not official just my thoughts, please discuss possibly demoting Jirachi and possibly promoting Cobalion.
i don't think i was even 10 years old the last time Jirachi was used in tournament which speaks volumes about its viability. this Pokemon doesn't really have a niche anymore which is quite saddening. i was perusing through the analyses the other day when updating the role compendium and was greeted with 5 different sets, none of which have seen the light of day in YEARS. This is due to other Steel-types like Heatran and Ferrothorn fulfilling the same role of the specially defensive Steel with extra crucial utility such as Heatran's ability to check Volcarona and Ferrothorn's ability to check Manaphy. i would not be wrong for suggesting to place Jirachi in D tier but i understand that my hubris might be going too far so instead i will suggest it moves down to the of bottom C- tier below Cobalion and Conkeldurr (where Celebi should be...)
i don't have much to say about the other Steel-types other than Empoleon has carved itself a real niche and thus should be at least C just above Mega Swampert other than that, Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix should stay where they are.
i don't have much to say about the other Steel-types other than Empoleon has carved itself a real niche and thus should be at least C just above Mega Swampert other than that, Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix should stay where they are.
Disagree with the Jirachi doom and gloom; I would instead argue it deserves a bump over Gyarados and Mega-Latios within its own sub-rank, as it's much closer to something like Gengar in general usability in comparison. This is mostly because of its Scarf set, which makes perfect use of its solid typing, bulk, and speed-tier to become a headache for some teams to pin down due to its access to both U-Turn and Healing Wish. I think a fast U-Turn's value in a metagame dominated by stuff like Weavile, Serperior, and Mega-Alakazam is obvious, but Jirachi's access to Iron Head and Serene Grace means that you have odds in your favor to just brute-force certain neutral matchups, and sometimes even unfavourable ones. Even with no super-effective moves, I probably wouldn't trust e.g. a Keldeo to take it on in a 1v1 scenario, if it's been chipped down to even ~60%. Almost all of the main stops to Jirachi are SR-weak, with only Tankchomp and Ferrothorn reliably punishing its pivot spam (Zapdos has good odds to neuter it via Static but is weak to SR). This ability to naturally provide momentum in conjunction with Healing Wish make it a serious option for heavy offense teams in my opinion.
The above is not accounting for the fact that Scarf still has one more move which can flip a category of bad matchups; anything from Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Zen Headbutt (eh...), Heart Stamp (reaching a bit but it works about 60% of the time), Body Slam (this is the most suspect), Thunder Wave, and Trick are options. You only get one, and this slot is usually just to provide an out in a tougher matchup or cover specific targets for revenge-killing, but it's a point flexibility I have taken advantage of when building with the ultimate oddsmaxxer.
I think Scarf Jirachi compresses a lot of value into a single slot, as speed-control, Steel-type, revenge-killer, pivot, and Healing Wisher. But above all, so long as you have Jirachi, you basically always have a way to win, no matter how distasteful that way might be. That distinction isn't really something any other C+ rank Pokemon can claim. It has other options like SR and mixed sets that really cement its position as a C+ Pokemon (at minimum!), but the Scarf set should be considered enough to prevent it from dropping any lower in my humble opinion.
For the other Steel-types I'll try to keep it brief and not drone on. Cobalion and Mega-Aggron should switch spots; Cobalion's normal set feels too weak to really justify anything higher, while more offensive sets still look unproven to my untrained eye. Its other qualities such as being one of the best Dark-type checks in the tier and having a varied support movepool have already been explained and are good in the metagame. Mega-Aggron, on the other hand, does not feel like it belongs in the same tier as stuff like Mega-Aerodactyl, Jellicent, and Alakazam. You have a major opportunity cost for it as your Mega-slot, and from what I can tell, kind of needs the team to be heavily built around it in order to thrive. I think I see the appeal, but as a result it seems overly constrained as a Mega; its general usability seems more reminiscent of a Pokemon like Ditto than the other C-rank Pokemon, so such a ranking seems more appropriate.
I sincerely don't believe any Mega Pokemon is truly bad (even Mega-Audino, somehow...). But I have not once been able to actually justify Mega-Steelix on a team. I'm usually pretty good at building bad teams, but Mega-Steelix has been able to talk me out of using it every single time. It's just so heavily exploitable and seems to be solidly outclassed by Mega-Aggron despite their differing typing. At best, it should just keep its D rank, but I really think there's a case for just unranking it entirely. I acknowledge that a vision exists with it, but right now it is unknown to me; I hope to be enlightened.
The above is not accounting for the fact that Scarf still has one more move which can flip a category of bad matchups; anything from Ice Punch, Fire Punch, Thunder Punch, Zen Headbutt (eh...), Heart Stamp (reaching a bit but it works about 60% of the time), Body Slam (this is the most suspect), Thunder Wave, and Trick are options. You only get one, and this slot is usually just to provide an out in a tougher matchup or cover specific targets for revenge-killing, but it's a point flexibility I have taken advantage of when building with the ultimate oddsmaxxer.
I think Scarf Jirachi compresses a lot of value into a single slot, as speed-control, Steel-type, revenge-killer, pivot, and Healing Wisher. But above all, so long as you have Jirachi, you basically always have a way to win, no matter how distasteful that way might be. That distinction isn't really something any other C+ rank Pokemon can claim. It has other options like SR and mixed sets that really cement its position as a C+ Pokemon (at minimum!), but the Scarf set should be considered enough to prevent it from dropping any lower in my humble opinion.
For the other Steel-types I'll try to keep it brief and not drone on. Cobalion and Mega-Aggron should switch spots; Cobalion's normal set feels too weak to really justify anything higher, while more offensive sets still look unproven to my untrained eye. Its other qualities such as being one of the best Dark-type checks in the tier and having a varied support movepool have already been explained and are good in the metagame. Mega-Aggron, on the other hand, does not feel like it belongs in the same tier as stuff like Mega-Aerodactyl, Jellicent, and Alakazam. You have a major opportunity cost for it as your Mega-slot, and from what I can tell, kind of needs the team to be heavily built around it in order to thrive. I think I see the appeal, but as a result it seems overly constrained as a Mega; its general usability seems more reminiscent of a Pokemon like Ditto than the other C-rank Pokemon, so such a ranking seems more appropriate.
I sincerely don't believe any Mega Pokemon is truly bad (even Mega-Audino, somehow...). But I have not once been able to actually justify Mega-Steelix on a team. I'm usually pretty good at building bad teams, but Mega-Steelix has been able to talk me out of using it every single time. It's just so heavily exploitable and seems to be solidly outclassed by Mega-Aggron despite their differing typing. At best, it should just keep its D rank, but I really think there's a case for just unranking it entirely. I acknowledge that a vision exists with it, but right now it is unknown to me; I hope to be enlightened.
I agree with the things people said about Jirachi I think it's a great mon and has the tools to get back in usage. Unfortunately tho it isn't used so I can't back up and support the idea of it going up the scale rn. Don't think it should go down either I think it's way better than the mons around it in C but until it gets used more I feel it should stay where it's at and now with so many Oras tournaments going on surely we will get an opportunity to see it used, just like we saw Empoleon (although celebi went up and that's a mon surely we won't see so why not Jirachi too).
Just some opinions specifically about him I'm curious what u all think bout Jirachi.
Also
Nostalgic
Just some opinions specifically about him I'm curious what u all think bout Jirachi.
Also
Nostalgic
Mega Aggron deserves to get ranked higher, atleast C+ or B-. This guy is one of the tankiest mega, a great steel type and also has good coverage and rocks. The primary issue is its speed tier, no recovery and limited moveslots, but teams that can work around those issues work well such as alomomola balance/fat teams function great. Also, its a mega and there are better megas that can be used, but aggron is #1 most tanky steel.
Steelix doesn't deserve to be ranked higher, very niche mon and outclassed by the better steel ground type, excadrill and also aggron for tanky steel.
While jirachi has good stats and very nice coverage, theres just too many mons that you can use instead and i find it hard to fit on a team. It should keep its ranking. There is a better steel psychic type, however, i believe in wishpass rachi supremacy
Cobalion is a nice weavile counter, good rocker and pivot mon but its sort of redundant as a steel type as it doesn't resist fairy or psychics for that matter. It can get bumped up a bit for sure, great coverage and nice speed tier.
Empoleon is good but again, it faces severe competition with the other very viable water types such as slowbro, volcanion and rotom-wash. Also, it doesn't help that excadrill is a steel type remover. It doesn't have recovery options either. However, i am a big empoleon believer (s/o devin) and i believe it deserves to get ranked a bit higher due to its role compression (scald + rocks + defog + toxic/roar). It is just a bit hard to fit on teams. You can utilise it on offense, as long as you don't stretch the game too long b/c it gets chipped overtime and eventually dies. A bit inconsistent.
IMHO, rank them : jirachi -> empoleon -> aggron -> cobalion -> steelix.
Steelix doesn't deserve to be ranked higher, very niche mon and outclassed by the better steel ground type, excadrill and also aggron for tanky steel.
While jirachi has good stats and very nice coverage, theres just too many mons that you can use instead and i find it hard to fit on a team. It should keep its ranking. There is a better steel psychic type, however, i believe in wishpass rachi supremacy
Cobalion is a nice weavile counter, good rocker and pivot mon but its sort of redundant as a steel type as it doesn't resist fairy or psychics for that matter. It can get bumped up a bit for sure, great coverage and nice speed tier.
Empoleon is good but again, it faces severe competition with the other very viable water types such as slowbro, volcanion and rotom-wash. Also, it doesn't help that excadrill is a steel type remover. It doesn't have recovery options either. However, i am a big empoleon believer (s/o devin) and i believe it deserves to get ranked a bit higher due to its role compression (scald + rocks + defog + toxic/roar). It is just a bit hard to fit on teams. You can utilise it on offense, as long as you don't stretch the game too long b/c it gets chipped overtime and eventually dies. A bit inconsistent.
IMHO, rank them : jirachi -> empoleon -> aggron -> cobalion -> steelix.
First off, I think Jirachi and Cobalion should switch ranks (if not direct placements lol). Jirachi's only viable set in this metagame (that I know of forgive me I have not used Jirachi that much) is scarf which is pretty bad into many teams given the high amounts of Static Zapdos, Garchomp, and Ferrothorn running around. On the other hand, Cobalion also only really has one viable set (the utility one) but not only does it beat most dark types (except I am sure some shitmon like Mandibuzz or something) but it also has a really good movepool with options like thunder wave, taunt, and even stealth rock to have some variety. Jirachi arguably has a better movepool but the main difference between it and Cobalion in that regard is that it has much less flexibility with it moves as it wants all of the moves it already uses plus things like toxic or thunder wave or trick or any other moves starting with a "t". For all these reasons and more that many people have explained way better than me I think both of these pokemon should trade ranks.
Second off, while I believe Mega Aggron should stay where it is at, I believe Mega Steelix should move down to unranked. In my opinion, Mega Steelix does not have a niche in ou (at least that is worthwhile). As a defensive steel wall it is outclassed by Mega Aggron, as a sand force user it is (shockingly) outclassed by Mega Garchomp, and as a steel ground type...well I think "outclassed" is potentially an understatement when being compared to Excadrill. Even the other D tier pokemon have a more definable niche than Mega Steelix with (and this will be a bare bones summary of each D tier pokemon that probably won't be completely correct) Shuckle being the premier webs setter (I would argue it should be C- but not the time), Mega Sharpedo being a fast and powerful pokemon with speed boost in its base, Mega Camerupt has potential on trick room or more defensive teams, Tentacruel is a poison type spinner and a water type that outspeeds both Landorus-Therian and Excadrill, Dragalage is...poison dragon with adaptibility, Empoleon I will get to, Infernape is a fast fire fighting type with great mixed attacking potential and u-turn, Zygarde has glare plus dragon dance, Klefki has prankster and amazing typing (this should also be C- imo), and Umbreon is a great physical dark type wall with some solid options in its movepool. Mega Steelix does not have the same definable niche that all of these pokemon clearly have and thus it should not be ranked with these pokemon in my opinion.
Finally, there is Empoleon. I will not discuss it for very long as most people have done a better job explaining it but I definitely think Empoleon should be C. Not only does it have stuff like defog and scald but it also has some insane options like toxic, stealth rock, knock off, and even yawn for some reason. All that combined with a great typing that can invest even more into defense due to it already being slow gives it a really solid niche above every pokemon in D and arguably C-. For these reasons I believe Empoleon should be C tier.
I will admit that (aside from Jirachi and Cobalion) I have not used any of these steel types so if I got anything wrong, please tell me below.
Second off, while I believe Mega Aggron should stay where it is at, I believe Mega Steelix should move down to unranked. In my opinion, Mega Steelix does not have a niche in ou (at least that is worthwhile). As a defensive steel wall it is outclassed by Mega Aggron, as a sand force user it is (shockingly) outclassed by Mega Garchomp, and as a steel ground type...well I think "outclassed" is potentially an understatement when being compared to Excadrill. Even the other D tier pokemon have a more definable niche than Mega Steelix with (and this will be a bare bones summary of each D tier pokemon that probably won't be completely correct) Shuckle being the premier webs setter (I would argue it should be C- but not the time), Mega Sharpedo being a fast and powerful pokemon with speed boost in its base, Mega Camerupt has potential on trick room or more defensive teams, Tentacruel is a poison type spinner and a water type that outspeeds both Landorus-Therian and Excadrill, Dragalage is...poison dragon with adaptibility, Empoleon I will get to, Infernape is a fast fire fighting type with great mixed attacking potential and u-turn, Zygarde has glare plus dragon dance, Klefki has prankster and amazing typing (this should also be C- imo), and Umbreon is a great physical dark type wall with some solid options in its movepool. Mega Steelix does not have the same definable niche that all of these pokemon clearly have and thus it should not be ranked with these pokemon in my opinion.
Finally, there is Empoleon. I will not discuss it for very long as most people have done a better job explaining it but I definitely think Empoleon should be C. Not only does it have stuff like defog and scald but it also has some insane options like toxic, stealth rock, knock off, and even yawn for some reason. All that combined with a great typing that can invest even more into defense due to it already being slow gives it a really solid niche above every pokemon in D and arguably C-. For these reasons I believe Empoleon should be C tier.
I will admit that (aside from Jirachi and Cobalion) I have not used any of these steel types so if I got anything wrong, please tell me below.
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rachi and empoleon are the only ones on there which id consider using, steelix and aggron taking up a mega slot just makes me think theyre on paper cool mons one has to go out of their way to wanna use on a team, cobalion has a single niche but its an important one
given that logic id place these as jirachi = empoleon > cobalion > aggron and steelix
in high levels of play the mega options are extremely powerful and centralizing and having to spend that resource on a more niche option isnt worth the opportunity cost in my opinion, unless, again, youre going out of your way to want to use those mons because you think theyre cool which is fair and something i do and theyre certainly viable but yea
given that logic id place these as jirachi = empoleon > cobalion > aggron and steelix
in high levels of play the mega options are extremely powerful and centralizing and having to spend that resource on a more niche option isnt worth the opportunity cost in my opinion, unless, again, youre going out of your way to want to use those mons because you think theyre cool which is fair and something i do and theyre certainly viable but yea
Drops
C+ / #75 -> C / #78
C / #79 -> C- / #87
Rises
C- / #88 -> C+ / #77
D / #96 -> C / #86
Limbo
D / #94 -> D / #95
Cobalion has multiple brings in high level tour and is an effective utility mon. It can also run offensive with SD or Specs pretty decently.
Empoleon is incredible at compressing roles and is fits with the high-momentum offense modern ORAS has come to use.
Empoleon will be re-evaluated in the future as well as its true rank might be even higher but I'm keeping the 2 rank rise maximum in place.
Our next topic will include high ranks. Let us re-evaluate some dragons in ORAS
B+
34.
Dragonite
35.
Charizard-Mega-X
36.
Kyurem-Black
B
47.
Garchomp-Mega
54.
Latios
56.
Altaria-Mega
D
95.
Dragalge
98.
Zygarde
More than offensive utility really, dragons bring great resistances to Water, Grass, Electric, and Fire, all of which are very important to have on teams. Often times dragons end up being great at compressing multiple resistances in one slot, similar to steel types.
Kyurem-B is a great example of this, especially with AV or Scarf, making it a great match up into offense. The same can be said about Dragonite, particularly how great CB has been lately. Dnite and Kyurem-B should rise
On the other hand, while Altaria is still a threat in certain MU's, competing with other mega slots it really shows that, even on stall, there is almost always a better mega option. I think Altaria should drop.
Finally, Dragalge and Zygarde are trash. Well Zygarde I can see in C- simply because both CB and SubCoil are actually somewhat decent. You are often most times better just bringing bulky dd dnite or cb dnite, but it's something. Dragalge on the other hand always ends up being a disappointment.
C+ / #75 -> C / #78
C / #79 -> C- / #87
Rises
C- / #88 -> C+ / #77
D / #96 -> C / #86
Limbo
D / #94 -> D / #95
Cobalion has multiple brings in high level tour and is an effective utility mon. It can also run offensive with SD or Specs pretty decently.
Empoleon is incredible at compressing roles and is fits with the high-momentum offense modern ORAS has come to use.
Empoleon will be re-evaluated in the future as well as its true rank might be even higher but I'm keeping the 2 rank rise maximum in place.
Our next topic will include high ranks. Let us re-evaluate some dragons in ORAS
B+
34.
Dragonite35.
Charizard-Mega-X36.
Kyurem-BlackB
47.
Garchomp-Mega54.
Latios56.
Altaria-MegaD
95.
Dragalge98.
ZygardeMore than offensive utility really, dragons bring great resistances to Water, Grass, Electric, and Fire, all of which are very important to have on teams. Often times dragons end up being great at compressing multiple resistances in one slot, similar to steel types.
Kyurem-B is a great example of this, especially with AV or Scarf, making it a great match up into offense. The same can be said about Dragonite, particularly how great CB has been lately. Dnite and Kyurem-B should rise
On the other hand, while Altaria is still a threat in certain MU's, competing with other mega slots it really shows that, even on stall, there is almost always a better mega option. I think Altaria should drop.
Finally, Dragalge and Zygarde are trash. Well Zygarde I can see in C- simply because both CB and SubCoil are actually somewhat decent. You are often most times better just bringing bulky dd dnite or cb dnite, but it's something. Dragalge on the other hand always ends up being a disappointment.
I think I mostly agree with Mr. Ruffles synopsis of the dragons. I do disagree a little but as far as dragalge. I think it deserves to be rated at C-. It provides toxic spikes which isn't available for a lot of mons. Yes. It isn't delivering this with the amount role compressions as cofag. That's why it's D/C- wherever it ends up after this vote. It also falls to the issue of being weak to the apex spin predator known as excadrill. So it can't defend its tspikes all that well either. But what if I said it has other options. It's special defensive profile is very good and having adaptability means we can not be a wet noodle when punch back. It does pretty well into kelds, pretty much every single grass type not named ferrothorn, okay vs zap and thunds not running np, volcaronas, clefs, rotom. Having access to dtail can also help deny CM kelds qd volc and serp from beating you down to nothing. It also gets hydro pump Incase you want to try and catch an exca or lando wanting to switch into you. Pair this guy with a water or something that doesn't like touching grass that gets over on exca and you could have something successful I think. It's a specific thing but I think it's underexplored. (Almomola + dragalge came to mind while writing this)
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Dragalge: 164-194 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (this spread also has enough speed to out speed neutral 0 speed tangs and not get knocked, slept or quaked)
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Dragalge: 164-194 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (this spread also has enough speed to out speed neutral 0 speed tangs and not get knocked, slept or quaked)
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Dragalge, mega garchomp, and kyurem - black should be ranked higher.
Setting toxic spikes while being a threat offensively while still having some defensive value is what dragalge does, and it should be ranked higher. Tspikes + adaptability + dragon tail is a deadly combo. It has seen some usage in tours e.g. by the great imperialH and by the great whyaddicted.
Mega garchomp has been seeing more and more usage as a mixed breaker on sand and check to volcarona. Its very hard to switch into its devestating coverage. Should be ranked higher.
Kyurem-black boasts many viable mixed sets e.g. scarf on beat up, life orb to break, subroost for longevity and physical choice band to surprise and kill chansey. It has some downsides like the speed and typing but it does what its meant to do really well.
Unfortunately, i believe my beloved mega altaria should be ranked lower as its usage has decreased a lot. Stalls now utilise mvenu instead of it, and it is very hard to fit on balance. It has seen good success in the past, and i'd like for it to do the same now but the meta is unkind to it.
Dragonite, xard, zygarde and latios are fairly rated.
Setting toxic spikes while being a threat offensively while still having some defensive value is what dragalge does, and it should be ranked higher. Tspikes + adaptability + dragon tail is a deadly combo. It has seen some usage in tours e.g. by the great imperialH and by the great whyaddicted.
Mega garchomp has been seeing more and more usage as a mixed breaker on sand and check to volcarona. Its very hard to switch into its devestating coverage. Should be ranked higher.
Kyurem-black boasts many viable mixed sets e.g. scarf on beat up, life orb to break, subroost for longevity and physical choice band to surprise and kill chansey. It has some downsides like the speed and typing but it does what its meant to do really well.
Unfortunately, i believe my beloved mega altaria should be ranked lower as its usage has decreased a lot. Stalls now utilise mvenu instead of it, and it is very hard to fit on balance. It has seen good success in the past, and i'd like for it to do the same now but the meta is unkind to it.
Dragonite, xard, zygarde and latios are fairly rated.
I think Dragonite and Kyurem-Black deserve at least an A- rank because they are highly splashable on offensive teams and have access to a variety of viable sets.
Dragonite is not just a win condition -- it also checks several offensive threats such as Serperior and Volcarona. With Inner Focus, it can even punish Mega Lopunny by ignoring Fake Out flinches. Dragonite can be customized to handle many of its checks: for example, Fire Blast for Skarmory and Mega Scizor, Iron Head for Clefable, and Superpower to OHKO Mega Tyranitar. It also runs Dragon Dance + Roost sets on bulkier teams, allowing it to act as a win condition with longevity while checking threats like Volcarona and Gliscor (when running Ice Punch). Alternatively, the Choice Band set is nice with Banded Extreme Speed acting as a powerful priority move that can clean up against offensive teams.
Kyurem-Black is also an excellent Pokémon due to how difficult it is to switch into. It reliably checks Manaphy and Serperior, which is a huge asset. Like Dragonite, it has great versatility in its set choices, including Choice Specs, Assault Vest, Life Orb, and Choice Band. Additionally, Kyurem-Black is one of the main reasons Beat Up offense is gaining popularity, as its massive base Attack boosts Beat Up damage significantly.
Dragonite is not just a win condition -- it also checks several offensive threats such as Serperior and Volcarona. With Inner Focus, it can even punish Mega Lopunny by ignoring Fake Out flinches. Dragonite can be customized to handle many of its checks: for example, Fire Blast for Skarmory and Mega Scizor, Iron Head for Clefable, and Superpower to OHKO Mega Tyranitar. It also runs Dragon Dance + Roost sets on bulkier teams, allowing it to act as a win condition with longevity while checking threats like Volcarona and Gliscor (when running Ice Punch). Alternatively, the Choice Band set is nice with Banded Extreme Speed acting as a powerful priority move that can clean up against offensive teams.
Kyurem-Black is also an excellent Pokémon due to how difficult it is to switch into. It reliably checks Manaphy and Serperior, which is a huge asset. Like Dragonite, it has great versatility in its set choices, including Choice Specs, Assault Vest, Life Orb, and Choice Band. Additionally, Kyurem-Black is one of the main reasons Beat Up offense is gaining popularity, as its massive base Attack boosts Beat Up damage significantly.
at long last i have been summoned to share my expertise on the all powerful Dragon-type and elaborate as to why the rankings shown below are a great stain upon the reputation of our beloved ORAS OU
I'd like to start us off with Mega Charizard-X. this Pokemon is well known for its impressive feats as a Dragon Dance sweeper punishing most structures after a single turn of set-up. it's an incredible boon for offense teams looking for both strength and a set-up threat in the same slot. Charizard also shares the incredible ability that is Tough Claws with the no. 1 mega in the tier, Mega Metagross, letting it Flare Blitz through even the sturdiest of teams with aplomb. however, despite these fantastic traits, Charizard finds itself held back by the simplest of obstacles; Stealth Rock. the entry hazard has been plagueing Charizard ever since its conception in 2006 (less than a year after I was born!!). the tale of Stealth Rock and its impact on 4x weaks such as the infamous Volcarona and the golden child Charizard is a well documented story that is still being written to this day. one of the plotlines of said story is the immense difficulty of getting Charizard (and its fellows with the same plight) onto the field without having to sacrifice half their health to do so. this is the one thing that holds back Charizard from torching the entire tier. however despite this, Charizard still holds its own as one of the premier mega Pokemon in ORAS as an incredible offensive threat. this is why i find it appaling that Mega Charizard-X has been relegated to the B tier, a tier designed to house "average" Pokemon with a well defined role in the tier. while I understand the reasoning of this placement, I'd like to argue that Charizard should be moved to at least A- tier in-between Cresselia and Mega Gyarados. Gyarados and Charizard fill a similar role/ niche in the tier as powerful Dragon Dance threats capable of sweeping entire teams at the drop of a hat. they also have similar levels of "splashability" as they fit on the same teams to fulfill the same role. because of this I find it shocking that the two are not ranked right next to each other and hope that this will be rectified in the next update
next up is a Pokemon who seems to get better and better each time I look at it, Kyurem-Black. Kyurem just can't stop winning! the recent development the Assault Vest set has opened up people's eyes to the fact that Kyurem is actually a fantastic answer to the infamous Fire-Water-Grass combo of Serperior, Manaphy and Volcarona. this is coupled with the fact that Kyurem doesn't have to sacrifice anything to achieve this. Kyurem is able to fill this role while still maintaing its incredible offensive presence which makes it a massive help to the offensive structures it finds itself on. additionally, the increasing popularity of the Choice Scarf set lets Kyurem fulfill the role of speed control since its good speed stat lets it outrun Dragon Dance users such as Gyarados and Dragonite. the only boosted Pokemon that Kyurem can't outspeed with its Scarf are Volcarona and Mega Charizard-X who are better dealt with one of Kyurem's partners such as Volcanion. speaking of Volcanion, one of the more infamous structures that Kyurem has made its name on is the Beat Up offense team. this team shows off Kyurem's best traits as we truly get to see how versatile it really is. you can run Life Orb for special damage (or if you're a real freak, Choice Specs), Choice Band for physical damage, Choice Scarf for speed, Assault Vest for defensive utility. you can also run Leftovers or Never-Melt Ice or Expert Belt or whatever other niche option comes to mind, really the list goes on. i honestly believe that Kyurem-Black should be at least A rank if not any higher. I would personally place it around where Mega Venusaur and Tyranitar are.
the apple of my eye. Dragonite is another one of those Pokemon that graduated from the school of "it gets better everytime I see it" alongside Kyurem-Black. the utility provided by BFG over here is vast and peerless. it's somewhat similar to King DDD in that they are both Dragon Dance users with incredible defensive utility with Dragonite's utility coming from the amazing ability that is Multiscale. the classic Dragon Dance set is always a menace especially now with more offense teams running around which leads to there being LESS CLEFABLE. this means that Dragonite has more teams to threaten as well as less of its no. 1 enemy to deal with. what's amazing about the Dragon Dance set, both offensive and defensive, is that it really does not have that many moves it runs which is really interesting. you pick 3 of; Outrage/ Dragon Claw, Earthquake/ Fire Punch and Extreme Speed/ Roost. and thats it. the item choice is also similarly minimalist since it's a choice between Lum Berry and Leftovers with the occasional Life Orb (for the OHKO on Weavile with +1 Extreme Speed). however this isn't all there is to Dragonite's game as there's also the incredible Choice Band set, which in my opinion is Dragonite's best set. Choice Band Extreme Speed is a drug and so is CB Outrage. the deal with CB Dragonite is that it provides incredible utility thanks to priority from Extreme Speed. this alongside Multiscale, lets you always get at least one kill vs. offense either due to Extreme Speed picking something off or Multiscale allowing you to smash that +2 Thundurus with Outrage. one thing i'd like to add about Choice Band Dragonite is that its a master at picking apart fat teams. one well placed Outrage and Cofagrigus is now fodder for your Medicham or Metagross or one Superpower to the cranium and now Chansey loses to Volcarona or Alakazam. Dragonite is really good and in my opinion should be placed in the A tier above Skarmory.
---
in reflection, I think that these Dragon-types should be placed in the A tier. I'd also like to call to attention the possibility of a reshuffling of the A tier. lastly I'd like to say that this post is part 1 of 2 that I will be making on the Dragon-types in ORAS OU so look out for my next write-up !!
34.
35.
36.
I'd like to start us off with Mega Charizard-X. this Pokemon is well known for its impressive feats as a Dragon Dance sweeper punishing most structures after a single turn of set-up. it's an incredible boon for offense teams looking for both strength and a set-up threat in the same slot. Charizard also shares the incredible ability that is Tough Claws with the no. 1 mega in the tier, Mega Metagross, letting it Flare Blitz through even the sturdiest of teams with aplomb. however, despite these fantastic traits, Charizard finds itself held back by the simplest of obstacles; Stealth Rock. the entry hazard has been plagueing Charizard ever since its conception in 2006 (less than a year after I was born!!). the tale of Stealth Rock and its impact on 4x weaks such as the infamous Volcarona and the golden child Charizard is a well documented story that is still being written to this day. one of the plotlines of said story is the immense difficulty of getting Charizard (and its fellows with the same plight) onto the field without having to sacrifice half their health to do so. this is the one thing that holds back Charizard from torching the entire tier. however despite this, Charizard still holds its own as one of the premier mega Pokemon in ORAS as an incredible offensive threat. this is why i find it appaling that Mega Charizard-X has been relegated to the B tier, a tier designed to house "average" Pokemon with a well defined role in the tier. while I understand the reasoning of this placement, I'd like to argue that Charizard should be moved to at least A- tier in-between Cresselia and Mega Gyarados. Gyarados and Charizard fill a similar role/ niche in the tier as powerful Dragon Dance threats capable of sweeping entire teams at the drop of a hat. they also have similar levels of "splashability" as they fit on the same teams to fulfill the same role. because of this I find it shocking that the two are not ranked right next to each other and hope that this will be rectified in the next update
next up is a Pokemon who seems to get better and better each time I look at it, Kyurem-Black. Kyurem just can't stop winning! the recent development the Assault Vest set has opened up people's eyes to the fact that Kyurem is actually a fantastic answer to the infamous Fire-Water-Grass combo of Serperior, Manaphy and Volcarona. this is coupled with the fact that Kyurem doesn't have to sacrifice anything to achieve this. Kyurem is able to fill this role while still maintaing its incredible offensive presence which makes it a massive help to the offensive structures it finds itself on. additionally, the increasing popularity of the Choice Scarf set lets Kyurem fulfill the role of speed control since its good speed stat lets it outrun Dragon Dance users such as Gyarados and Dragonite. the only boosted Pokemon that Kyurem can't outspeed with its Scarf are Volcarona and Mega Charizard-X who are better dealt with one of Kyurem's partners such as Volcanion. speaking of Volcanion, one of the more infamous structures that Kyurem has made its name on is the Beat Up offense team. this team shows off Kyurem's best traits as we truly get to see how versatile it really is. you can run Life Orb for special damage (or if you're a real freak, Choice Specs), Choice Band for physical damage, Choice Scarf for speed, Assault Vest for defensive utility. you can also run Leftovers or Never-Melt Ice or Expert Belt or whatever other niche option comes to mind, really the list goes on. i honestly believe that Kyurem-Black should be at least A rank if not any higher. I would personally place it around where Mega Venusaur and Tyranitar are.
the apple of my eye. Dragonite is another one of those Pokemon that graduated from the school of "it gets better everytime I see it" alongside Kyurem-Black. the utility provided by BFG over here is vast and peerless. it's somewhat similar to King DDD in that they are both Dragon Dance users with incredible defensive utility with Dragonite's utility coming from the amazing ability that is Multiscale. the classic Dragon Dance set is always a menace especially now with more offense teams running around which leads to there being LESS CLEFABLE. this means that Dragonite has more teams to threaten as well as less of its no. 1 enemy to deal with. what's amazing about the Dragon Dance set, both offensive and defensive, is that it really does not have that many moves it runs which is really interesting. you pick 3 of; Outrage/ Dragon Claw, Earthquake/ Fire Punch and Extreme Speed/ Roost. and thats it. the item choice is also similarly minimalist since it's a choice between Lum Berry and Leftovers with the occasional Life Orb (for the OHKO on Weavile with +1 Extreme Speed). however this isn't all there is to Dragonite's game as there's also the incredible Choice Band set, which in my opinion is Dragonite's best set. Choice Band Extreme Speed is a drug and so is CB Outrage. the deal with CB Dragonite is that it provides incredible utility thanks to priority from Extreme Speed. this alongside Multiscale, lets you always get at least one kill vs. offense either due to Extreme Speed picking something off or Multiscale allowing you to smash that +2 Thundurus with Outrage. one thing i'd like to add about Choice Band Dragonite is that its a master at picking apart fat teams. one well placed Outrage and Cofagrigus is now fodder for your Medicham or Metagross or one Superpower to the cranium and now Chansey loses to Volcarona or Alakazam. Dragonite is really good and in my opinion should be placed in the A tier above Skarmory.
---
in reflection, I think that these Dragon-types should be placed in the A tier. I'd also like to call to attention the possibility of a reshuffling of the A tier. lastly I'd like to say that this post is part 1 of 2 that I will be making on the Dragon-types in ORAS OU so look out for my next write-up !!
Dragalge hasnt been used in a serious game since ORAS was current iirc. Zyg I saw work on that one insufferable team thats like rachi, thundy, clef, and just a bunch of paraspam shittters, always can remember the exact game. Latios is okay but it's a mon I would never seriously consider using in Weav meta but I'm a big hater of the Lati twins in ORAS because I think neither is good except for Defogging to help Volcarona. Dragonites an A- mon realistically.
I've missed so many conversations!
Celebi
Of course Celebi can't compete as a scald sponge. That's like asking Starmie to be Slowbro. The thing is it has an entire spectrum of sets from leech seed aaaall the way to nasty plot. No wonder it's a tournament special. Celebi is at its best when it's played like a Mew with a stab grass. I don't think anything with healing wish + stealth Rock should be D in any tier bar Uber. It's not that it should carry those moves, it's that it could. It's really really hard to rate. I mean, just like Mew, it can get set up on or it can sweep their team. How you gonna rank that?
Tangrowth
You need to weaken this thing before bird spam. Nuff said.
Yes it can't sponge scald, and your opponent is most likely happy to land a burn on it. But as a trade-in we have genuine offense + genuine physical bulk. Compromising on the that two jobs (sleep) for a grass type isn't great, and thus I do think it's supposed to be worse than Amoongus. C+ to B- seems pretty fair.
Jirachi
My boy :[
The unfortunate side effect of having the OUBL pokemon mega Metagross is that everyone comes prepared. I wanted to defend it for being able to run like doom desire + healing wish, or body slam, etc., until I had to admit they are all memes.
Empoleon
People seem to like running offense on this thing more and more. I think its stab combination is still way too niche because it immediately runs into the 4-slot syndrome. It wants scald for consistency, wants grass knot for water, flash cannon for a valuable special steel stab, agility, defog, rock, HP-something for something, and then the end of the day, somehow, still gets strapped to a Shuca berry.
I love this mon as I went back to breed a 5iv with defog, in freaking gen 4, and then RM it till gen 6; my favorite starter. But this thing is still really limited.
Altaria
When it first came out I thought I found the poster boy of bulky offense. Imagine Sylveon with like 12 resistances, roost, and can set up. Over the years people have pivoted to playing it like a fairy mega mence, which is not wrong, it's just competition on the mega slot I reckon. I don't think it belongs with Latios. Either Latios higher or Altaria lower.
Dragalge
100% agreed on the "under explored" assessment by someone before me. Picking the item for it is already mental gymnastics. I think it MUST lean on the "fairy-killer" dragon + toxic spikes 100%, but how we are supposed to achieve that, is still debated. In some way it feels like Goodra where no one move you can nonchalantly click, and I admit I don't know how to make it work consistently. I just find it really cool :]
The Dragon trio
Kyurem I'm really just fearing a sub. Dragonite I'd have to decipher the band/lum/weakness policy thing but all sets eventually just try to outrage something really hard. Chard-X I feel should be on another tier entirely because of two extremely clickable stabs that aren't one on ATK and the other on SPA, some bulky sets, and there's 8% of your brain screaming "WHAT IF IT'S CHARD-Y ??!" the entire time.
Celebi
Of course Celebi can't compete as a scald sponge. That's like asking Starmie to be Slowbro. The thing is it has an entire spectrum of sets from leech seed aaaall the way to nasty plot. No wonder it's a tournament special. Celebi is at its best when it's played like a Mew with a stab grass. I don't think anything with healing wish + stealth Rock should be D in any tier bar Uber. It's not that it should carry those moves, it's that it could. It's really really hard to rate. I mean, just like Mew, it can get set up on or it can sweep their team. How you gonna rank that?
Tangrowth
You need to weaken this thing before bird spam. Nuff said.
Yes it can't sponge scald, and your opponent is most likely happy to land a burn on it. But as a trade-in we have genuine offense + genuine physical bulk. Compromising on the that two jobs (sleep) for a grass type isn't great, and thus I do think it's supposed to be worse than Amoongus. C+ to B- seems pretty fair.
Jirachi
My boy :[
The unfortunate side effect of having the OUBL pokemon mega Metagross is that everyone comes prepared. I wanted to defend it for being able to run like doom desire + healing wish, or body slam, etc., until I had to admit they are all memes.
Empoleon
People seem to like running offense on this thing more and more. I think its stab combination is still way too niche because it immediately runs into the 4-slot syndrome. It wants scald for consistency, wants grass knot for water, flash cannon for a valuable special steel stab, agility, defog, rock, HP-something for something, and then the end of the day, somehow, still gets strapped to a Shuca berry.
I love this mon as I went back to breed a 5iv with defog, in freaking gen 4, and then RM it till gen 6; my favorite starter. But this thing is still really limited.
Altaria
When it first came out I thought I found the poster boy of bulky offense. Imagine Sylveon with like 12 resistances, roost, and can set up. Over the years people have pivoted to playing it like a fairy mega mence, which is not wrong, it's just competition on the mega slot I reckon. I don't think it belongs with Latios. Either Latios higher or Altaria lower.
Dragalge
100% agreed on the "under explored" assessment by someone before me. Picking the item for it is already mental gymnastics. I think it MUST lean on the "fairy-killer" dragon + toxic spikes 100%, but how we are supposed to achieve that, is still debated. In some way it feels like Goodra where no one move you can nonchalantly click, and I admit I don't know how to make it work consistently. I just find it really cool :]
The Dragon trio
Kyurem I'm really just fearing a sub. Dragonite I'd have to decipher the band/lum/weakness policy thing but all sets eventually just try to outrage something really hard. Chard-X I feel should be on another tier entirely because of two extremely clickable stabs that aren't one on ATK and the other on SPA, some bulky sets, and there's 8% of your brain screaming "WHAT IF IT'S CHARD-Y ??!" the entire time.
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I will not be talking about Dragalage because I don't think it is that good.Drops
C+ / #75 -> C / #78
C / #79 -> C- / #87
Rises
C- / #88 -> C+ / #77
D / #96 -> C / #86
Limbo
D / #94 -> D / #95
Cobalion has multiple brings in high level tour and is an effective utility mon. It can also run offensive with SD or Specs pretty decently.
Empoleon is incredible at compressing roles and is fits with the high-momentum offense modern ORAS has come to use.
Empoleon will be re-evaluated in the future as well as its true rank might be even higher but I'm keeping the 2 rank rise maximum in place.
Our next topic will include high ranks. Let us re-evaluate some dragons in ORAS
B+
34.
35.
36.
B
47.
54.
56.
D
95.
98.
More than offensive utility really, dragons bring great resistances to Water, Grass, Electric, and Fire, all of which are very important to have on teams. Often times dragons end up being great at compressing multiple resistances in one slot, similar to steel types.
Kyurem-B is a great example of this, especially with AV or Scarf, making it a great match up into offense. The same can be said about Dragonite, particularly how great CB has been lately. Dnite and Kyurem-B should rise
On the other hand, while Altaria is still a threat in certain MU's, competing with other mega slots it really shows that, even on stall, there is almost always a better mega option. I think Altaria should drop.
Finally, Dragalge and Zygarde are trash. Well Zygarde I can see in C- simply because both CB and SubCoil are actually somewhat decent. You are often most times better just bringing bulky dd dnite or cb dnite, but it's something. Dragalge on the other hand always ends up being a disappointment.
Zygarde is pretty cool in theory. It has glare and good typing as well as the best ground type move ever made in thousand- wait what do you mean that move came out in gen 7? In all seriousness though Zygarde is pretty weak on the offensive side with only base 100 attack and as a dd sweeper, it doesn't do anything that the other dd sweepers in the tier do better aside from glare. I think if its defensive potential is explored a bit more it could rise to C- but for now it should probably stay at D.
I love Mega Altaria but it is not a very good as an offensive pokemon. Similiar to Zygarde, Mega Altaria is rather weak with only 110 base attack and while pixilate tries to make up for it in a lot of ways, you would be better off using many other dd sweepers. It is also weak to some pretty common attacking types with less ways to deal with them than many other dd sweepers (why didn't Gamefreak make fairy resist itself). Personally (and also like Zygarde), I feel like it has way more to offer as a bulky wallbreaker or support. It gets access to plenty of cool defensive options like heal bell, toxic, roar, and even haze. For the moment, I believe it should stay where it is.
Base Latios is pretty cool. Like in gen 5, its choice item sets are very strong and trick is still very appreciated in such a high power metagame. However, with megas and fairy types existing, it is not nearly as powerful as before. Despite these problems however, I still think Latios should rise to B+. Draco meteor still hits extremely hard even with the nerf, and levitate with defog is very useful even with Excadrill being the best pokemon in the tier (yes I do disagree with Mega Metagross being number 1) because of how good hazards are in this meta. With options such as Cofagrigus and Scolipede rising up as hazard setters (and spin blockers in the case of Cofa) having a defogger on your team can be very useful and with Latios you get that and a powerful special attacker. In my opinion, it is more viable than everything in B tier (except for Crawdaunt which I also believe should rise).
Mega Garchomp should either stay where it is at or move to B-. Nothing else to really say.
As for the top 3 dragons mentioned, all of them should move up to A- bare minimum as mixnite argued in his post. Mega Charizard X could be argued to move to A as in my opinion, it is the most powerful (not strongest there is a difference) dd sweeper in the tier thanks to tough claws. However, Dragonite and Kyurem Black also deserve to rise to A- (or potentially A as well). Dragonite has multiscale and multiple choices for items and moves which means it is hard to tell what set it is going to be until it is too late. Kyurem Black meanwhile, has great mixed attacking potential and sub roost can ruin your opponent's day with ease. The fact that these pokemon share a tier with Latias/Mega Latias is honestly a disgrace as (while Latias is plenty good in its own right) all 3 are far more viable than her in my opinion.
Effective immediately
B+ / #34 -> A- / #34
B / #56 -> B- / #62
-> Unchanged
-> Unchanged
-> Unchanged
-> Unchanged
It is very clear that Dragonite is on a different level than other B+ mons. This is particularly due to the CB set providing immediate wallbreaking power. Furthermore, the combination of its ability, typing, and access to Espeed makes Dragonite an incredible anti-offense tool. However, Dragonite's DD set and other sets (utility, dd+roost, etc.) are rather underwhelming lately in my opinion, as the metagame is very fast paced and Dragonite at +1 is not threatening enough to win games. It has to either lock itself into Outrage or settle for a weak Dragon Claw, not to mention that if the opponent has the right mons (Cresselia, Zapdos, Skarmory, Clefable, etc.) Dragonite can barely even make a dent. Obviously, having access to DD and other sets is better than nothing, so its always a +, but it's not good enough imo to be at A.
Mega Alataria has basically been on a legendary decline as it went from a strong unkillable wallbreaker into something that so often comes up underwhelming. If you run DD+Heal Bell, you are walled by poisons and steels including Excadrill, something that has +60% usage. If you run DD+EQ, then status is annoying, and even then many steel types easily wall Mega Altaria. Sub+DD w/ screens is often annoying to many teams, but is still limited in its offensive capabilities. The special set is a bit unexplored now but with a lacklaster speed I'm not sure how great it can be.
Nonetheless, Mega Altaria can still often 6-0 many unprepared teams, so I do not think it will drop to C+ soon, but B- seems to me like a perfect place for it for now.
Zygarde, Dragalge, Latios, and Garchomp-Mega I do not see any reason to change as of now. Latios is getting back but it's still outclassed by other mons in B+ including Latias.
Please continue discussing:
where (what #) specifically should and be. I think Dragonite can stay in A- but rise a couple of ranks, and perhaps Altaria can drop a few ranks and stay in B-.
B+ / #34 -> A- / #34 B / #56 -> B- / #62 -> Unchanged -> Unchanged -> Unchanged -> UnchangedIt is very clear that Dragonite is on a different level than other B+ mons. This is particularly due to the CB set providing immediate wallbreaking power. Furthermore, the combination of its ability, typing, and access to Espeed makes Dragonite an incredible anti-offense tool. However, Dragonite's DD set and other sets (utility, dd+roost, etc.) are rather underwhelming lately in my opinion, as the metagame is very fast paced and Dragonite at +1 is not threatening enough to win games. It has to either lock itself into Outrage or settle for a weak Dragon Claw, not to mention that if the opponent has the right mons (Cresselia, Zapdos, Skarmory, Clefable, etc.) Dragonite can barely even make a dent. Obviously, having access to DD and other sets is better than nothing, so its always a +, but it's not good enough imo to be at A.
Mega Alataria has basically been on a legendary decline as it went from a strong unkillable wallbreaker into something that so often comes up underwhelming. If you run DD+Heal Bell, you are walled by poisons and steels including Excadrill, something that has +60% usage. If you run DD+EQ, then status is annoying, and even then many steel types easily wall Mega Altaria. Sub+DD w/ screens is often annoying to many teams, but is still limited in its offensive capabilities. The special set is a bit unexplored now but with a lacklaster speed I'm not sure how great it can be.
Nonetheless, Mega Altaria can still often 6-0 many unprepared teams, so I do not think it will drop to C+ soon, but B- seems to me like a perfect place for it for now.
Zygarde, Dragalge, Latios, and Garchomp-Mega I do not see any reason to change as of now. Latios is getting back but it's still outclassed by other mons in B+ including Latias.
Please continue discussing:
where (what #) specifically should
and be. I think Dragonite can stay in A- but rise a couple of ranks, and perhaps Altaria can drop a few ranks and stay in B-.Any creativity on Altaria? I still remember waiting for ORAS while thinking, dragon fairy? That's gotta be one of the most broken mon ever created...
I'm thinking
Facade heal bell, pick your status, surprise power
Explosion
Timid with 200ish HP to live a bullet punch, outspeeds drill outside sand, and utility moves. Like a starmie except dark resist.
Rest talk hyper voice + roar/heal bell
hone claws dragon rushsing
dragon pulse
agility full special
mirror move
I wish wifi is still on / pretendo has pulled through so I can call up a friend and mess around with this in wifi battles.
I'm thinking
Facade heal bell, pick your status, surprise power
Timid with 200ish HP to live a bullet punch, outspeeds drill outside sand, and utility moves. Like a starmie except dark resist.
Rest talk hyper voice + roar/heal bell
hone claws dragon rush
dragon pulse
agility full special
mirror move
I wish wifi is still on / pretendo has pulled through so I can call up a friend and mess around with this in wifi battles.
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I think Dragonite is slightly more viable than every pokemon up to Mega Gallade but I don't think Dragonite can quite go above that so it could be either 31st or 32nd depending on how good you think Heatran is. As for Mega Altaria, it is harder to say because I do think that the placements are a bit out of order viability wise and I also think that Reuniclus should be C- but in the end I would probably say it is above Victini Hydreigon Alomomola and maybe even Mega Heracross but below everything else in B-.Effective immediately
It is very clear that Dragonite is on a different level than other B+ mons. This is particularly due to the CB set providing immediate wallbreaking power. Furthermore, the combination of its ability, typing, and access to Espeed makes Dragonite an incredible anti-offense tool. However, Dragonite's DD set and other sets (utility, dd+roost, etc.) are rather underwhelming lately in my opinion, as the metagame is very fast paced and Dragonite at +1 is not threatening enough to win games. It has to either lock itself into Outrage or settle for a weak Dragon Claw, not to mention that if the opponent has the right mons (Cresselia, Zapdos, Skarmory, Clefable, etc.) Dragonite can barely even make a dent. Obviously, having access to DD and other sets is better than nothing, so its always a +, but it's not good enough imo to be at A.
Mega Alataria has basically been on a legendary decline as it went from a strong unkillable wallbreaker into something that so often comes up underwhelming. If you run DD+Heal Bell, you are walled by poisons and steels including Excadrill, something that has +60% usage. If you run DD+EQ, then status is annoying, and even then many steel types easily wall Mega Altaria. Sub+DD w/ screens is often annoying to many teams, but is still limited in its offensive capabilities. The special set is a bit unexplored now but with a lacklaster speed I'm not sure how great it can be.
Nonetheless, Mega Altaria can still often 6-0 many unprepared teams, so I do not think it will drop to C+ soon, but B- seems to me like a perfect place for it for now.
Zygarde, Dragalge, Latios, and Garchomp-Mega I do not see any reason to change as of now. Latios is getting back but it's still outclassed by other mons in B+ including Latias.
Please continue discussing:
where (what #) specifically should
I have already said what I wanted to say about Zard X and Kyurem Black in my last post so I will just say that both should be A- (maybe even A for Zard) but I don't know where I would specifically place them.
I fully believe M-alt should drop to B- or at bare minimum the very edge of B-ranking.
Its a mon that while promises a million things on paper, can fail to deliever on a lot of those things. Defensive utility, terrifying sweeping potential and not needing to necessarily mega evolve right away. It also faces fierce competition from the other dragon types that can do one thing or another M-alt promises to bring to the table (zard-x sweeper, chomp defensive utility). You could also argue M-latias is probably easier to splash as opposed to M-alt.
While M-alt isn't unviable and certainly not a mon to sleep on, it requires too much work for not enough returns.
Its a mon that while promises a million things on paper, can fail to deliever on a lot of those things. Defensive utility, terrifying sweeping potential and not needing to necessarily mega evolve right away. It also faces fierce competition from the other dragon types that can do one thing or another M-alt promises to bring to the table (zard-x sweeper, chomp defensive utility). You could also argue M-latias is probably easier to splash as opposed to M-alt.
While M-alt isn't unviable and certainly not a mon to sleep on, it requires too much work for not enough returns.