Resource SV OU Indigo Disk Viability Ranking Thread - (update on post #1002))

[leng loi]

Agreed on Ceruledge to B+. This mon's been performing absurdly well in WCoP lately and that classic Bulk Up set proves it's still got a lot of life left in it.

But on the topic of WCoP, I'd like to make a couple of very, very, VERY warranted noms:

B --> A- or A
B+ --> A

Veil absolutely dominated WCoP qualifiers and Round 1, as evidenced by the fact that it was brought to 17 games and won 13 of them, amounting to a staggering 76% winrate. Ceruledge featured very prominently on these squads, but by far the most common mon on these Veil teams (besides the obvious A9) is CM Hatterene, which was used on all but one of these Veil teams. It does something virtually irreplaceable for these squads thanks to Magic Bounce while being plenty scary enough to take on H-Samurott, and it's an absolutely devastating bulky wincon in its own right that can quickly snowball out of control. Hatt is virtually as much of a Veil staple as A9 and deserves to be ranked alongside it (but honestly, I think it could be A to Ninetales' A- based on the fact that Hatt's extremely useful on many archetypes beyond just Veil).

This may seem like a bit of a dramatic rise, but for a playstyle that's historically considered to be inconsistent or cheesy this usage/winrate in WCoP it's showing a shocking amount of consistency at an incredibly high level of play.

Veil is bad and its performance in pools was indicative of a lower skill level and a higher willingness to cheese.

 

[MC Squared]

Veil is bad and its performance in pools was indicative of a lower skill level and a higher willingness to cheese.

How can you prove it was a low skill level specifically? o.o

 

[leng loi]

How can you prove it was a low skill level specifically? o.o

It's WCOP pools. That's inherently a lower skill level than SPL/SCL.

 

[MC Squared]

It's WCOP pools. That's inherently a lower skill level than SPL/SCL.

You just offended the entire WCOP playerbase LMAOOO

But forreal though, it'd be cool to see an article or something regarding the experience and skill level needed to participate in all these different Smogon tournaments that happen

 

[Eeveeto]

I disagree with Wcop Pools being much worse than SPL and SCL, but agree in Veil being overrated. The win rate is still impressive and can,t be ignored, though, a rise to B+ is deserved, just not to A.

Now, why is Veil overrated? Its very easy to remove or avoid:
1. Cinderace. Obvious, this is the worst Veil match-up.
2. Defog. Gholdengo is a must on Veil just by how easy Corviknight removes it. And even Ghold won,t be able to do it vs Weezing (unless Ability Shield, but thats madness at this point).
3. Changing weather. Fortunately, Ninetales destroys Pelipper and can run Snowscape, but the match-up against Sun and the rare Tyranitar is still bad and prediction reliant.
4. Psychic Fangs. Lots of Mons learn the move, in OU they are just 3 though. Gliscor has no reason to run it, but BandPult has a free slot anyway. Meanwhile, Zamazenta can use the move to break through some Poison types, such as Okidogi (who also learns Psychic Fangs, but is not a OU MOn).
5. Brick Break. Every Brick Break Mon has something better, but some Brick Break Mons are really unexpected and can work: Lando learns the move, Waterpon learns the move, Gambit isn,t that much worse by running it instead of Low Kick, same for Weavile and Meowscarada. There are a lot of learners here, won,t bother mentioning them all, but one moveslot out of 24 isn,t that big if Veil become common and in many cases, Veil user won,t see it coming.
6. Taunt. Very common move, though few users are faster than Ninetales and not threatened by it. But it exists.

Combined with Ninetales being a pretty lackuster Mon outside of the Veil, I don,t think it should be rising to A, B+ is enough. Niche style that currently has some trends favoring it but destroyed by Cinderace, not very different to Webs (Araquanid currently is in B).

 

[Setsu]

In my personal experience, playing a lot of ladder, I got to play a lot against Veil around when WCoP pools when happening and a few days later. But then not much at all. The recent ones that come to my mind arent the Darkrai variants either, but the Manaphy ones. While the playstyle was spammed during R1, it only showed up in one game during R1 TB and R2, a game which shows part of the issue with Veil.

Its an inconsistent playstyle by nature. To add to what Eeveeto said above, aside from Cinderace which I have to mention, there are other option that dont autowin vs Veil, but have solid matchups against it. Gholdengo, Tera Blast Dragonite, Wellspring, Stealth Rock from the likes of Heatran, Tinkaton or Skill Swap Deoxys-S, Skill Swap Ribombee. While Veil has Hatterene, Whirlwind and Roar from Ting-Lu or Zamazenta might either get a good turn, or at worse force Hatterene to switch in a moment it might not want to and waste a couple of turns.

 

[leng loi]

I disagree with Wcop Pools being much worse than SPL and SCL, but agree in Veil being overrated. The win rate is still impressive and can,t be ignored, though, a rise to B+ is deserved, just not to A.

How is pools, where regions (including mine) have to scrounge around to fill their slots comparable to SCL/SPL where managers can pick from the cream of the crop?

4. Psychic Fangs.
5. Brick Break.

Be so fr. Veil is bad because you're incentivized (due to having limited turns for free setup) to run multiple diverse threats that will win with limited progress from teammates as opposed to other offense archetypes that need their offense pieces to work together to beat things. In other words, it wants mons that win or lose on matchup. I'd never bring something like this if I thought I was better than my opponent.

 

[Coin Flip]

I’m nominating Ogerpon-W to be moved up to S- rank. It fits well as an offensive, defensive, and utility Mon on most playstyles. Between SD, Knock, Play Rough, U-turn, encore, and spikes you can tailor fit how it works for your team. I think we’re starting to see more of the range it has to offer on the ladder, which subsequently makes it’s harder to play around until you can diagnose the set. Even though it’s Tera is limited, the SpD boost can flip a bad matchup and the boost to Ivy Cudgel allows it to muscle past many would be checks like Pecharunt, not to mention the elevated crit chance it has.

 

[Magcargo]

-> B+

I use to be a Heatran hater, but after using it more, it ain't half bad imo. I think its defensive typing and bulk have merit, letting it soft check a few annoying mons like Rai, Utility Ace, and Pult quite nicely, with Flame Body also working to let it punish Knocks from the like of Weavile. Something I really like about Heatran is that it feels like one of the best Rockers, with none of the hazard removers wanting to switch into its Fire Stab, wisp, or EP. Unlike other Rocks setters, Heatran also doesn't feel like it is sacrificing as much to run Rocks. Other rockers like Tusk and clefable rather run setup or other utility moves like Knock over Rocks, so freeing up these options by running Heatran as Rocker is nice. I think Heatran's biggest issue of consistency can be Magma Storm, but ive been using other Fire STab like Lava plume or overheat and it feels like those can also get the job done. In general, Heatran's Fire STab can feel tough to play around against since the tier does not make many switch ins.

 

[JackRG]

Been playing SV a lot more recently and would like to share some VR noms

Rises

S—> S

Dnite has it all. Sweeping potential with endless permutations thanks to great coverage, DD, Roost, and encore. The incredible defensive utility it provides to offense also really cannot be understated. Balance teams also love dnite since it provides them either a dd wincon or a solid wellspring check that can phaze with the dragon tail set. Sure its not perfect due to wellsprings tendency to run knock and play rough. However, that's just wellspring being broken, preventing it from spamming Ivy Cudgel is half the battle. This dnite set also synergizes with other soft wellspring checks so it doesn’t have to do the work around. The fact that it is endlessly versatile and fits on every archetype, and rarely runs into bad matchups unlike zama makes it well deserving of being S rank.

A+ —> S-

Speaking of wellspring being broken, do I really need to elaborate here? Most offenses should run her due to the sheer mindless spamability of Ivy Cudgel paired with all the tools needed to deal with the few answers to ivy cudgel spam like knock, uturn, power whip, spikes, taunt, play rough, SD, encore, and more. Even without ideal coverage ivy cudgel tends to be able to just brute force its way past everything anyway. Unlike most breakers this strong its not even bad into offense, thanks to it being able to grab a spdef boost with tera and having the natural bulk to live most hits. The only bad thing I can say about it is the hazard vulnerability, but its very workable, especially when ogerpon only needs to come in a few times to decimate a team.

A —> A+ / potentially S-

Very hard to not use this guy on balance tbh. Idbp checks so many physical threats, including making the gliscor and kingambit MU a million times easier. U-turn is also a invaluable pivoting tool to help faciliate your own offensive threats. Honestly the only reason I wouldn’t use this guy on balance is if I’m using skarmory for spikes instead. I honestly believe it deserves S- due to being nearly required on balance but I know people don’t fully agree yet, so I’ll just vouch for A+ rn.

A —> A+

Not sure how gking ended up this low tbh. Balance obviously loves it to help breakers get on the field, future sight is a great way to break, twave is broken, ice beam punishes greedy gliscor switches. Balance appreciates it ability to shut down sun greatly. Imo boots is easily the best set but AV is also a great backbone on offense.

B+ —> A- / potentially A

Magic bounce is broken and hatt feels great rn. It matches up well into many common setters, especially appreciating the slight falloff of hrott. Fairly versatile too with cool options like hwish and pain split.

B+ —> A-

If it was only used on sun still it would make sense here but given that wake fits on other playstyles with sets like boots knockoff makes me feel like it should be higher. Hey, even specs is good outside of sun TBH, Pump or Scald, Draco, flamethrower, and flip turn make it a huge threat

B+ —> A-

One of the best wellspring checks that doesn’t feel like a momentum drain thanks to its high SPA and nasty plot. I like investing in physdef to let it survive +2 pon play rough, as well as running draco to ensure it is guaranteed to hit pon as hard as possible. Generally just a threatening breaker that can check a large list of physical threats.

B —> B+

Dozo’s main flaw is how much support it needs but the security it provides with unaware along with the huge bulk makes it a huge asset for stall and balance alike if supported well.

B —> B+

Heatran honestly feels super nice in the meta rn as a reliable SR user unbothered by the rise of gweez and corv as hazard removers. Magcargo already made a great post about Heatran literally above this one so just look at that, don't need to rehash what he said.

B- —> B+

A lot of what I said about dozo also applies here. I feel like dirge is only this low because people stopped using it after the gfire/volc bans and have yet to rediscover it so to speak. Definitely one of the two go-to unaware users for balance alongside clef and sets itself apart by being a solid kyurem and gweez switch alongside it being by far the least passive of the unaware mons, actually being quite a threat if you let it click torch song enough times. Still held back by the support it needs be its undeniably very good. In particular I’m really found of the skele hydrapple core, and I feel like it deserves more experimentation since they complement each other so well

B- —> B+ / potentially A-

Easily the best fire on HO with endless versatility and power, great traits to have on aggressive teams. Also is a strong pick on sun and standard offenses as well. A well deserved rise to OU in my opinion (Also helps prove that the moon ban didn’t actually decrease offensive options in the tier, since after all its ban was a big part of what made ceru rise)

B- —> B / maybe B+

Major threat under sun that also provides invaluable speed control allowing you to fit booster SPA wake easier. Imo fits on most sun teams and deserves to be closer to ninetales on the VR

UR —> B-

A lot of the great traits this guy has have already been said in the glowking section. Gking loves its tera water and slowking is that but it doesn’t even need to burn tera to destroy offensive waters like wake. Scald isn’t too spammable with wellspring being everywhere but its another small plus. In addition to this with how many great poisons are in the tier like gweez and pech, you may want to use one of them alongside a slowking to avoid doubling up on weaknesses. Suprised this guy isn’t ranked tbh.

Drops

S —> S-

Already shared my thoughts on why zama shouldn’t be S many times, but tldr idbp is hazard vulnerable and walled by a ton of common mons, boots often isn’t strong enough to use the admittedly large number of switch ins it gets effectively, on top of having coverage issues. No lefties also hurts when you don’t have recovery. Band can be threatening but is heavily prediction reliant and needs future sight to work. Still undoubtedly a top 5 mon but definitely not the best mon in the tier.

A —> A-

Can farm some builds but also is a huge liability into things that wall it and are immune to its parahax shenanigans like ting lu, spdef treads, gliscor, and garg, in addition to offensive threats it tends to let in like kyurem

A- —> B

This mon is a huge fish and can often feel like dead weight if you don’t win the matchup lottery. Still has its place (booster SPA on webs makes it a lot more consistent imo), but I largely think ceruledge is the best fire on HO (read above to see why)

A- —> B+

Easily the best sets are specs and scarf. The issue for me is moonblast isn’t too spammable in the current meta, which is very important for a choice item user. This results in a mon that results in a mon that requires heavy prediction aganist common mons like gking and corv. Still pops off in the right MU tho, just hard to use and fit.

B+ —> B

imo theres just so many better HO leads. It feels hard to get a ton of value out of this guy with all the great poisons in the tier to absorb its tspikes. The main thing keeping it this high for me is how threatening meteor beam set can be if played well (especially on webs)

B —> C+ or lower

Haven’t seen this shit in forever and its easy to see why. Only even worth considering on veil and even there its very niche (which is why its odd that its in the same tier as Atales) plenty of more consistently threatening darks to choose from

B- —> C- or lower

This shit is just ass man. Its funny when you manage to cheese with it but its so predictable and telegraphed and is destroyed by so many common mons that can either threaten heavy damage while it struggles to hurt them like gambit, or things that easily phaze it out like ting lu. Don’t use this on any halfway serious team lol.

B- —> C or lower

Araq is really just better. Unlike ribombee it can actually threaten many common mons and dent something heavily while getting webs up. Araquanid being a strong mon in its own right, which leads to web teams using it being more consistent as a whole since its not a dead slot if you face bootspam, stall or whatever. Ribombee has a tiny niche for its speed tier but just use araquanid 95% of the time lol.

 

[Whaloob]

Iron Moth being due for a further drop (let alone multiple tiers from A-) feels out-of-date imo. Yes it hates well-established Ting Lu and Dnite, rising Heatran usage (though much of this use is flame body Heatran), some Glowking variants, and most Gargs, sure, and if you let your thought process stop there then dropping Iron Moth further makes sense. But Iron Moth has seen both improvements in the utilization of its standard booster speed sets and significant experimentation to help deal with its problem matchups, while also benefiting from the Roaring Moon ban.

Specs outputs incredible damage with overheat and sludge wave, with the former having a chance to 2HKO Glowking (or OHKO in sun, a HUGE boon for a sun team) and breaking through Ting Lu over 2 entrances (or 1 in sun), and the last 2 slots can be customized with some mix of fiery dance (for cleaning), energy ball (for ting lu and garg including tera water), dgleam (for dnite), or tb ground (for heatran and non-tera garg, though tera water is 2HKO’d by sludge wave). For sun specifically, although RM served a different role insofar as whom it broke, Iron Moth appreciates no longer competing with RM for a slot among its powerful breakers, and it makes the use of booster speed Wake easier to justify/less of a sacrifice in fat and Glowking matchups, since either one of the two will readily chip special walls for the other. Also with tera fire in sun, Overheat rolls to 2HKO Blissey. Welcome back Chi-Yu II.

Booster speed variants have been experimenting more with tspikes, whirlwind, or both, most notably on the now-infamous tera ghost Dnite team. While the tier is not exactly lacking in tspike absorbers, Iron Moth’s ability to 1) bring the absorber in as it sets tspikes (if the absorber is Glimm, Pex, Gking, or sometimes even opposing Moth), 2) chip down said absorbers, and 3) become significantly more threatening to the most common special wall in the tier in Ting Lu with tspikes down all lead to it being an ideal setter of tspikes. It also doesn’t really need tspikes to function—its first 2-3 slots encompass the majority of its value, and tspikes simply serve to provide it with an alternative wincon, one it can often choose to supply as it is killed thanks to its speed tier, which can make battle routing quite difficult for the opponent when you bring in your next mon. I am also a firm believer that the move Toxic is itself deserving of more use on booster speed sets. Also worth noting that booster speed variants no longer have to worry about RM outspeeding at +1, which is useful both against sun and in preventing RM from setting up on you via tera/just not being revenge killable by you.

Power herb meteor beam has also seen emerging usage recently, guaranteeing its boosted special attack and becoming much harder to prevent from snowballing boosts especially against fatter teams. Often one of the ways moth fails to secure boosts is not just missed RNG with fiery dance, but missed opportunities to USE fiery dance simply because doing so is either risky or guaranteed to be punishing, because it just isn’t hitting hard enough yet. Boosting your special attack early is pivotal in allowing you to continue to do so without sacrifice.

Its variety doesn’t end there either. Niche sets like agility booster spatk, red card tspikes, and boots with uturn and/or morning sun all have demonstrated viability, and I would not be surprised to see more over time, particularly fatter moth sets with recovery that attempt to stack fiery dance boosts over a longer set of turns (as we’ve seen with many a sweeper throughout the generation).

The recurring theme for the majority of established successful moth experimentation has been in reinforcing its fat matchup and allowing other mons to cover its reduced effectiveness against offensive archetypes. I believe this is a testament to two main things: the consistency of the tier’s anti-offense weapons like Dragonite, Ting-Lu Iron Valiant, AV Hatterene, Kingambit, Tusk, Scizor, and Zapdos; and Iron Moth’s own ability to pressure fat with minimal (or at worst reasonable) sacrifices to its offense matchup. I wouldn’t advocate for a rise to A at the moment, though I wouldn’t be surprised by it rising later, but to say that this mon is a fraud or deserving of a drop to B+ or lower is, in my eyes, absurd.

 

[Moyashi]

A- -> A
This is far above anything in A- and I’d argue it’s better than a lot of what’s in A, but for now a simple raise feels right. It’s very threatening in practice due to its incredible versatility, and its matchless speed gives it amazing range in what it can do from item to movesets and the little tweaks to its sets. Boots attacker is great for general progress making and speed control, while hazard setting sets are good too. Despite its risk I think NP sets are among its best, as the payoff is incredibly high and it can get a lot done.

B+ -> A-
Less confident with this one but I think it’s had some solid success lately to show that it’s capable of being a pretty good Pokémon still, with useful enough defensive utility and a pretty potent progress toolkit, and it’s a fair pivot still thanks to regen.

 

[Whaloob]

A lot has been said on Ceruledge, Latios, Deo-S, Waterpon, Gweezing, Heatran, Hatt, A9T/veil abusers, etc so I won’t reiterate on those as they constitute the most obvious VR changes, but I do think there are a few deserving moves among the rest of the field:

: C+ -> B
Flexible with viable boots 4 attacks, choiced sets, np with tera blast ice or fairy (with boots or LO), and agility/double booster, probably a couple more niche items you could mess with like ebelt, AV, red card, and relevant single type boosting items. One of the few special attackers that runs knock off, and it hits every common knock absorber hard with volt switch and your tera blast of choice; given a little time, it can break any defensive core with the only support required being points of entry (and chilly reception if you’re using weather ball over tera blast). Decent speed tier, well above every breaker of its breaking prowess bar Waterpon and Walking Wake. Volt absorb + tera lets it blank raging bolt with tera fairy, act as a volt switch absorber, counter zapdos, etc. Specs tera flying blast is ludicrously strong. Would earn higher if it had more bulk, or a higher speed tier, or less tera reliance, but I think B is appropriate for it.

: S- -> A+
Still an incredible mon, nigh mandatory on stall and quite viable on basically every teamstyle, but not quite as splashable or overwhelming as it used to be. Does not appreciate Waterpon and Dnite both finding their way toward the very top cut of the meta considering what both offer as both offensive threats to Gliscor and defensive checks that are reasonably robust to tera turns; with both of the above being proficient themselves at snatching games if given an inch, and waterpon especially carrying insane immediate power, simply switching out or protecting is itself costly and risky. Just doesn’t feel on the same level as the other S- members anymore.

 

[Kadiro]

B+ --> A-

All of this pokemons i think deserve a better placement in the current sv vr.

Hydrapple is mainly one of the best checks to wogerpon that we have in the tier. With Play Rough becoming rarer since the Roaring Moon ban and choosing to run utillity sets instead of the usual SD variants, apple can check it fairly well throughout the course of the game. It also comes in for free against ting-lu and non ice fang zamazenta and it can be a real pain to switch into and KO for many teams, specially now that its running Rocky Helmet Max defensive sets.

Latios as a steel type with levitate after tera has been talked about enough (and for good reason) so i wont say much other than Specs Tera Dragon should see more usage.

Tornadus-T will eventually rise back to OU and i have no doubt about it. HDB is great,of course, and i think AV is really underrated, but Nasty Plot is the main thing here.
TB Ground + Grass Knot is a particular potent combo imo, walled only by Corviknight and Zapdos, and Heat wave + Dark Pulse is a real option too. NP-3A is great but it can also experiment with NP-2A + knock, taunt or uturn. Overall fantastic mon that i think will continue going up in both usage and viability.

 

[UltraSword]

Already shared my thoughts on why zama shouldn’t be S many times, but tldr idbp is hazard vulnerable and walled by a ton of common mons, boots often isn’t strong enough to use the admittedly large number of switch ins it gets effectively, on top of having coverage issues. No lefties also hurts when you don’t have recovery. Band can be threatening but is heavily prediction reliant and needs future sight to work. Still undoubtedly a top 5 mon but definitely not the best mon in the tier.

I was going to make a post saying why Zama should drop to S- but this sums up a lot of my thoughts perfectly. IDBP is too mu reliant and AoA is pretty weak in comparison given Zamazenta's below average attack stat (at least in my opinion) in this meta.

 

[Whaloob]

A lot has been said on Ceruledge, Latios, Deo-S, Waterpon, Gweezing, Heatran, Hatt, A9T/veil abusers, etc so I won’t reiterate on those as they constitute the most obvious VR changes, but I do think there are a few deserving moves among the rest of the field:

Only didn’t talk about these before because my phone kept refreshing the page and losing progress and it was wayyy too early in the morning for me to deal with that, but a couple more noms:

: B -> B+
While I don’t think Rilla’s direct value has improved very much, I think grassy terrain has improved significantly as of late (and by extension I think terrain extender is its best set atm, though I also have been enjoying lefties/LO/miracle seed SD sets lately). It provides excellent support for rising stars like Waterpon, Heatran, Gweezing, Hydrapple, Hatt, and BU Ceru, it can anchor potent special spam builds by virtue of providing longevity while easily switching into and forcing out Ting-lu (often while maintaining momentum with u-turn), and the insane usage of various mons you cannot realistically hope to OHKO like Ting-lu, Pech, Zama, and Dragonite have led the meta to emphasize the exact kind of constant residual chip that Rilla provides robustness against. Its biggest drawback is not the birds that threaten to take its lunch money but rather the fact that terrain heals both teams’ grounded mons; while this does keep Rilla from rising any higher right now in my eyes, GT teams have synergistic solutions to this issue like Okidogi who can’t be phazed and gains robustness against EQ while hard countering Zama, TB fairy Rbolt who blows up Zama and Ting-lu, tspikes on Glimm or Iron Moth, Garg who just doesn’t fucking die, various psynoise users, and Serperior who appreciates both the power boost and the potential extra setup time granted by both mons’ increased longevity.

: UR -> D/C-
This mon has repeatedly flirted with with viability including a brief D ranking from 12/24 to 3/25, but I don’t think it’s been given enough credit for what it offers especially as of the introduction of Psychic Noise to its movepool. I am primarily nominating Jirachi to be ranked based on a set comprising of leftovers or AV alongside 250 speed and max spdef with uturn/fire punch/ice punch, body slam, iron head, and psychic noise (-spatk is generally fine but -speed max spdef could be considered instead). I find this set offers a lot in a meta full of residual chip and special spam:

Combined with Serene Grace body slam to spread paralysis even on ground types, it is effectively among the faster users of psynoise while also being much more defensively useful than its faster counterparts in Iron Crown and Deo-S. It is among the best checks to Kyurem including after tera, shrugging off anything shy of specs earth power or a DD super effective TB while threatening para, flinch, and psynoise for sub sets. While inconsistent in this regard, it has an insane ceiling for bringing back seemingly lost positions by virtue of being difficult to OHKO and having such a nasty paraflinch combo. It also stallbreaks fairly efficiently thanks to paralysis, psynoise, and uturn if applicable. I frequently find myself trading Jirachi out for 2-3 crippled opposing mons left below half. Yellow magic is also just really good rn and being one of the more efficient spreaders of para thanks to landing it on ground types is really nice.

 

[Chilln0]

Started getting back into laddering current gen OU again, so here’s my takes, hot and not

feels like an S/S- tier mon whenever I use it. It’s so easy to slap onto any balance team because its so physically bulky that its standard set doesn’t even run any defense investment, instead running max speed, which is really nice for a wall because it can’t get exploited by slow wallbreakers, and can either smack it with MC (which is a really, really good move btw) or can just Parting Shot out of there. Even things like Dragonite have to run Tera Ground EQ to get past it reliably.


I wasn’t a

believer when the Indigo Disc first dropped, but now I’ve been convinced. The AV set in particular has plugged a lot of holes in teams I’ve made. I’m not sure if its as splashable as the mons above it, but to me its solidly above everything else in A- except maybe Mola


I think

should also be in A- for mostly similar reasons as the two above. Having a special check thats fast and threatening is really nice. Its just less splashable than Pecharunt is because its not as strong as a pillar; it loses to a lot of special attackers you really wish it didn’t like Iron Moth, and there are other things you could be running on balance in its place like Ting-Lu


I’ve started building balance teams with

recently and I’m starting to love this thing it’s kinda cracked. I like using it how you would use something like Ting-Lu, and while it’s not as bulky as Ting-Lu on the physical side, it is considerably harder to switch in against. Nothing likes taking Knock Off, and sand is deceptively good in Gen 9 because so many things that are scared of being worn down run boots instead of Lefties. It also breaks Dragonite’s Multiscale, which is worth mentioning. Unless you wanna run Spikes on your Ting-Lu, I’d say Ttar at least worth considering in its place, as I’ve found it to be a very reliable rocks setter, and its self sustaining as it can remove boots itself. Also, this isn’t something I’ve explored yet, but it does have a few move options that I think are worth looking into, like Heavy Slam for Clefable and Hatterene. Could be risen to B or B+


Anyway

is a FRAUD. I’ve been hating on this thing since DAY 1. “Oh wow, it can set two layers before dying, but unlike the other setters it can deal 27% to the opponent at the same time, and it also has a 10% chance of not doing anything” “Oh wow, it can set Spikes in front of Hatterene. Its a good thing Hatt doesn’t have a move that can OHKO me as I try to use the one good thing I have” “Oh wow, its one move is boosted by Sharpness so it can deal extra damage. This is very useful, because SV OU is famous for being a tier without any good Dark resists” “Oh wow, it has two priority moves? I can’t wait to deal no damage with a 40 BP attack! This was the only option, because SV OU is a tier known for lacking good priority options”

Look, it isn’t unusable, but it’s a lot more specific than people say it is. Having a hazard lead with priority and pivoting is nice, and Encore is also handy, but it isn’t actually beating any other leads that aren’t also dedicated leads, and its not even guaranteed to do that; Araquanid destroys it for example. The lead sets are incredibly predictable, and having the tools to beat it isn’t hard at all. Using it as a mid game setter is… questionable - its not particularly bulky or fast, so its an awkward mon to use as a pivot, and its not outrageously strong to the point where it can function as a wallbreaker. Against defensive mons it’s not anymore threatening as anything else with the moves Hammy uses, and it doesn’t have the longevity to actually make the most out of the moves its running. As of writing this I haven’t actually used the AV set, or even played against it, but I’m sure its okay. I’d just rather use other AV mons unless I need the role compression. In my opinion it should be at B rank at BEST, and maybe even lower.

 

[olamomalo]

Anyway View attachment 758880 is a FRAUD. I’ve been hating on this thing since DAY 1. “Oh wow, it can set two layers before dying, but unlike the other setters it can deal 27% to the opponent at the same time, and it also has a 10% chance of not doing anything” “Oh wow, it can set Spikes in front of Hatterene. Its a good thing Hatt doesn’t have a move that can OHKO me as I try to use the one good thing I have” “Oh wow, its one move is boosted by Sharpness so it can deal extra damage. This is very useful, because SV OU is famous for being a tier without any good Dark resists” “Oh wow, it has two priority moves? I can’t wait to deal no damage with a 40 BP attack! This was the only option, because SV OU is a tier known for lacking good priority options”

Look, it isn’t unusable, but it’s a lot more specific than people say it is. Having a hazard lead with priority and pivoting is nice, and Encore is also handy, but it isn’t actually beating any other leads that aren’t also dedicated leads, and its not even guaranteed to do that; Araquanid destroys it for example. The lead sets are incredibly predictable, and having the tools to beat it isn’t hard at all. Using it as a mid game setter is… questionable - its not particularly bulky or fast, so its an awkward mon to use as a pivot, and its not outrageously strong to the point where it can function as a wallbreaker. Against defensive mons it’s not anymore threatening as anything else with the moves Hammy uses, and it doesn’t have the longevity to actually make the most out of the moves its running. As of writing this I haven’t actually used the AV set, or even played against it, but I’m sure its okay. I’d just rather use other AV mons unless I need the role compression. In my opinion it should be at B rank at BEST, and maybe even lower.

If you're only using it as a hazard lead, then you're missing out. Swords dance and Assault Vest sets will get you much more milage. I recommend giving them a try. This is another pokemon where there's a big divide between higher and lower rank segments on how its used. Scarf and sash will only do so much and are relics from a more offense-oriented metagame.

A personal favorite is SD scope lens, which you may scoff at, but aqua cutter gets a 50% crit chance and can do the following:
- OHKO AV , fat , or at +2 (yes, really)
- delete any on the switch
- auto-win vs junky balances that use a bird to check SD samurott

Overall, while Ting Lu may be the better spikes lead, I think samurott is great into the bulky teams, scarf gholdengo, and those cheesy azz things like veil, sash ceruledge, and no removal hatterene squads.

 

[Eeveeto]

I actually agree in that generally Samurott Hisui doesnt have the Stats and the typing to be an OU Mon. 5 weaknesses, mediocre bulk and bad Speed for an offensive Mon. Its one reason of existance is Ceaseless Edge. People (myself included) have experimented with all type of sets on it: AV, SD, Restalk, Boots and Encore, Band... but all of them are match-ups specific and most people end up using Sash, which, while good, its quite team specific (Offense)...
Except it actually has one really good set. Scarf Samurott is amazing and with Roaring Moon (another good Scarfer, though it was not used as such) being banned, can claim the throne as the best Scarfer in the meta. Speed control is important, but weather Mons requiere using a suboptimal setter, while Booster Energy ones have only one shot. Therefore, Scarf is still a good item and Hisuian Samurott is the best one in my opinion. It wont be outspeeding weather or Booster Energy Mons, but it will outspeed the rest of the meta, and that includes DD Nite at +1. Early game it would put one hazard, mid-game it will switch into Ghold STABs if you play it well or revenge kill something, late-game it might sweep. Ability to put Spikes, pivot with Flip Turn and Knock things allows Hamurott to be very flexible each game and fit into all kind of teams. It shouldnt drop rank, Scarf set alone carries this Mon very hard and it has other sets, that, while inferior, are still usable and able to get wins.

 

[toshimelonhead]

I agree with the Hamurott take. It probably doesn't need to drop in the VR, but Scarf is its best set by far. My take on it is a mixed set that actually handles Tusk and Lando-T more efficiently with Surf and Tera Water that is posted below. EVs are there to OHKO Dragapult with Ceaseless Edge and sneak in KOs on the special side where it can.

Samurott-Hisui (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 140 Atk / 116 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Sacred Sword
- Aqua Cutter
- Surf

140 Atk Sharpness Samurott-Hisui Ceaseless Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 320-380 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
116 SpA Samurott-Hisui Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 362-428 (97.5 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
140 Atk Sharpness Tera Water Samurott-Hisui Aqua Cutter vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 400-472 (104.7 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
116 SpA Tera Water Samurott-Hisui Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 484-572 (111.5 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[658Greninja]

WCOP is over, OLT has begun. Its a good time to share my opinions on the meta.

Notable Noms.

Rise Noms

A+ > S-
It continues to prove to be more than a one-note wallbreaker. Branching into utility sets with Spikes and Synthesis to keep itself healthier in the slower games while being a sustainable Tusk switch-in, thus Ogerpon is solidified as a fantastic glue and a dangerous hole puncher with unprecedented set variety. It is all due to Ivy Cudgel being stupidly spammable with how limited sturdy Water resists are, even in modern SV OU.

A- > A
Deoxys has shown to be a one-size fits all Pokemon with how many roles it can fill for a team. The Nasty Plot sets have received the most attention among the public and its no secret why. Destroying BO cores with its terrifying speed tier and coverage, being an option to cripple or knock out supposed Deo checks like Corviknight with Tbolt or Ting-Lu with Focus Blast, enabling its other offensive teammates. Though Psychic is a mediocre type, the popularity of Psychic weak targets like Zama, Tusk, Pecha, and G-Weez has made Psycho Boost more prominent in modern SV OU. Deo is a previously overlooked Pokemon will likely continue surging upwards.

B+ > A-
Super annoying to switch into, and has enabled a ton of offensive structures we’ve seen on high ladder and WCOP. Deo’s increase in usage has also made it more of an appealing choice on BO/Offense. CM and AV are all irritating for most Balances lacking Gking, LO Trick Room also has potential vs offensive teams.

B+ > A-
Ok I’m convinced lol. The main selling point of Torn is being an annoying shit depending on the set. Taunt Boots craps on Balance/Stall with Spike support, AV has been enabled by the prominence of consistent hazard control from Weez, Treads, and Hatt, making it a solid pivot into strong special threats like Ghold or Prima. LO NP is cracked lol, so fast and Bleakwind hits neutral targets and even resist really hard (80% of the time). Though its value can feel MU dependent based on the set. Taunt Boots for example feels awkward into Offense. Good mon, might either go up or down in the future depending on how the meta looks 2-3 months from now.

B > B+
Always been a big advocate for Washtom. It has numerous good matchups in SV OU, including most Dragonites. Washtom has the admirable traits such as being immune to Spikes which have only gotten more common in recent memory. Washtom came be described as an Alomomola that trades longevity for being able to pivot freely vs Waterpon teams and having more consistent means to spread burns.

B- > B
I think it warrants a rise. I’m seeing alot of players advocating for B+, but I think thats overselling it. Ceru requires hefty team support coupled with precise micromanagement and play in order to position for a sweep. So its not splashable outside of offense. With that said it has defined itself as a worthy HO sweeper in the past few month, on top of packing multiple setup opportunities from the likes of Iron Crown, non-Tblast Ground Moth, and most Iron Valiants.

B- > B
Ribombee is on par with Araquanid as a web setter imo. Trading bulk and offensive power for a better matchup into setup dragons, Skill Swap, and Stun Spore.

C > C+
Strength Sap is a dumb move.

UR > C
Johtoking has some merit in the tier. Scald + T-Wave is difficult to switch into and the lack of a Ground weakness gives it a better matchup into Ting/Tusk/Glis/Lando/Dnite. Also lets you preserve Tera vs Sun.

UR > D
Saw a tiny bit of Mew usage. Its alright. Compared to Deo, it has more bulk and access to Wisp, letting it cripple Gambit/Samu/Ting, etc. Pawmot is tough to switch into. 105 speed is honestly good for a breaker, getting the jump on Kyurem, Lando, Pecha, and Tusk. Close Combat and Ice Punch 2-shots/1-shots every relevant Ground in the tier. Electric STAB is uncommon and valuable with how many physical walls are weak to it. A shame it needs Tera to use it consistently.

Drop Noms

S > S-
One of the most overprepped mons in the tier (for good reasons obviously). While it is still among the top 3, top 5 mons in OU, the shifts in the meta haven’t been favorable for it. G-Weez Balances continue gaining popularity, Hatt has been seeing higher usage, incentivizing more Heavy Slam. A lot of Dragonites are racing to cheese through Zama with either Encore or Tera Blast or both. Deo is a huge threat that can outspeed and force a Tera. Compared to mons like Dnite, the checks of Zama’s sets overlap and more often than not, they’re on the same team together, making it safer to scout compared to Dnite/Gambit/Wogre/Kyu. That being said, Zama is still among one of SV OU’s most vital glue Pokemon, though its threat level has subsided, its importance for checking 25% on its own and providing speed control cannot be overlooked.

A > A-
Samu has certainly gotten worse in recent months, but I’m seeing people act like Samu is washed or even straight up bad, I disagree. G-Weez has made its job more inconsistent, but it still has to respect Knock Offs and Razor Shell def drops. Waterpon has been competing hard with it as both an offensive water and spiker. However its Ghost/Dark resist is fantastic for dealing with Gambits and Gholdengos. Ting-Lu competes with it, but the thing is Samu threatens opposing rockers and most spike setters. It may not be as consistent as it was in earlier metas, but its still elite at forcing progress and still deserving to stay within the A ranks.

A- > B+
Moth continues to disappoint me. Attempts have been made to revitalize it, like Tspikes, Proto SpA, and even Whirlwind. I find those sets to be matchup fishy. With how frequent, Gking/Pecha are on ladder, you’d be gambling in the hopes your Tspikes Moth runs into a tryhard HO. Very Tera reliant, reliant on Fiery Dance RNG, reliant on Booster, and reliant on rocks being off. It has other potential sets like Boots U-Turn or Specs, but I found those to be competing with other mons that could fill those roles and be better.

A > B+
This was too overranked lmao. I think its still good, but Tinkaton has seen better days. Players have been more keen to its lack of longevity and poor matchup into most hazard removers means its difficult to fit on the average SV OU.

B > B-
As time goes on, I’ve been asking these questions about Garchomp. Why am I using this over Ting-Lu? Or if I’m running SD sets, why am I using this over Dnite, Kyu, Tusk, or Lando? Its a tough mon to justify on a team when its main 2 roles are accompanied by the 2 best mons in the tier. Helmet + Rough Skin is ruinous for the abundance of physical threats in the tier, but idk if that’s enough for me to say, yeah I’m using this over Ting-Lu. Becasue the opportunity cost of using Chomp over Ting-Lu is losing a major Ghost resist, and a Raging Bolt check, since Chomp has the unfortunate downside of being a Ground that cannot switch into Dpulse at all.

B+ > B-
Its worth keeping in the B ranks, but Skarm doesn’t do enough to put in on the caliber of stuff like Latios. Enamorus, Hydrapple, and Scizor, or even B ranks like Heatran or Pex. Drains momentum and lets alot of stuff in for free.

B- > C+
Stuff like Toxapex has been overtaking Amoonguss’ role as the Wogre check. It was only used once in the WCOP where it didn’t achieve much and was outperformed by the Italian goat Dudunsparce.

B- > C+
Latias is what you see when you type up the definition of matchup fish.

D > UR
Idk why these guys are still here. Cyclizar doesn’t beat phys def Ghold and Pech which are the two most common spinblockers. Diancie was added to the VR in December of last year and hasn’t done anything else since. Cress and Hatt are right there for TR chicanery lol. Rain doesn’t see much usage and whenever it is seen, Kingdra is almost never a part of it. At least with Basculegion it is a tactical nuke with Adaptability Rain-boosted Wave Crashes.

Some other things to say.

-I think Alolatales is fine where it is. I’ve seen a lot of advocating for it to go into B+ during R1 of WCOP due to how much Veil was used and the amount of games it clutched up. However as noted by leng, the skill level is lower, thus it is easier for cheese to find success. As WCOP continued, it has seen less prominence.

-Seen a bit of vocal support for Latios to rise. B+ is fitting for it since Latios is great a crushing Balance but feels awkward when confronted with more aggressive teams.

 

[Eeveeto]

^Agree with everything except unranking Kingdra. Rain is bad and Kingdra is niche there (this is actually not hard to be, only Pelipper is really mandatory on Rain, with Barraskewda being very recomendable as Main Swift Swimmer, but not mandatory), but still, unlike almost all Swift Swimmers, Kingdra has a very good defensive typing and enough bulk to switch into things once or twice, this is something Barraskewda doesnt do and Basculegion struggles to. Specs Scalds and Hydros are difficult for some teams to switch into and unlike many special breakers, Kingdra can pivot out with Flip Turn out of incoming special walls. Its also quite unexplored, I can see 2 unused sets that probably could work if tried: Rain Dance as a second Rain setter (so you have less Pressure on Pelipper) and Dragon Dance with bulk instead of Speed investment. Tera gives this Pokemon more options, and I am pretty sure that unless another better Water Dragon Swift Swimmer appears to outclass Kingdra (Walking Wake comes close to the concept, but doesnt do it), Kingdra is one of those Mons that even in Gen 12 or something will have SOME viability in OU and should always be considered when building Rain.

 

[Bundy300]

^Agree with everything except unranking Kingdra. Rain is bad and Kingdra is niche there (this is actually not hard to be, only Pelipper is really mandatory on Rain, with Barraskewda being very recomendable as Main Swift Swimmer, but not mandatory), but still, unlike almost all Swift Swimmers, Kingdra has a very good defensive typing and enough bulk to switch into things once or twice, this is something Barraskewda doesnt do and Basculegion struggles to. Specs Scalds and Hydros are difficult for some teams to switch into and unlike many special breakers, Kingdra can pivot out with Flip Turn out of incoming special walls. Its also quite unexplored, I can see 2 unused sets that probably could work if tried: Rain Dance as a second Rain setter (so you have less Pressure on Pelipper) and Dragon Dance with bulk instead of Speed investment. Tera gives this Pokemon more options, and I am pretty sure that unless another better Water Dragon Swift Swimmer appears to outclass Kingdra (Walking Wake comes close to the concept, but doesnt do it), Kingdra is one of those Mons that even in Gen 12 or something will have SOME viability in OU and should always be considered when building Rain.

I second this strongly (except the rain is bad part). I've been on a nice streak this OLT using my grassy terrain team & a rain one and Kindra played a big part in over half the wins, should even rank a bit higher imo due to it's bulk, pivoting etc as you said and how it also gives Waterpon trouble. This mon forces alot of tera's.

 

[658Greninja]

Couple things.

1 - viivian, airfare, and Srn will be stepping down from the VR council. It was an honor having them on the team o7.

2 - With WCOP over, we in the VR council are discussing another slate in the near future. Hopefully you’ll be looking forward to it.