the exactly 106 EVs that I have invested into Zacian bulk help it tank a decent amount of things, but flame charge is really threatening even w/ the bulk so I run tera water so I can tank flame charge and then kill korai that same turn. tera water also helps it with opposing zacian and other attacks.
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★ VGC 2025 Regulation I Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Princess Autumn
- Start date
I've thought Abt that before I might try that out
too weak to opp shadow rider - like even csr weezing is barely /fine/ and those teams literally have to run 3 whole slots that make opposing csr sad. you could do the same thing with CIR, but i worry a little about there being enough things that actually synergise w your main guys while also achieving a satisfactory level of shadow rider hate (some slower mons that could help you get there would be raging bolt of the assault vest variety, brute bonnet and ting lu)
there's some things to like there if it does turn out to be buildable though - like pairing poison gas/toxic spikes with leech seed ice rider is kinda oppressive on paper, but also being able to taunt/wisp zamazenta for free glacial lance estate, and i do think it is kinda underexplored as a concept
I think it also creates really annoying defensive synergy with CIR being able to make weezing 'fast' in TR, while weezing deactivates all the abilities which restricteds rely upon for their offense - e.g. Koraidon's sun, Miraidon's E-terrain, Zamazenta's defense boost for body press, weakening them all and arguably making CIR harder to remove
It also means you can run NMI > Clamulet and bully Incineroar with taunt to block parting shots
Might be interesting with Ting-Lu, or a Dozo Giri variant, even with Koraidon (although its very weak to CSR)
Heres an example of a CIR Koraidon Weezing team i made
https://pokepast.es/cbf07c15bcfeefb4
It also means you can run NMI > Clamulet and bully Incineroar with taunt to block parting shots
Might be interesting with Ting-Lu, or a Dozo Giri variant, even with Koraidon (although its very weak to CSR)
Heres an example of a CIR Koraidon Weezing team i made
https://pokepast.es/cbf07c15bcfeefb4
A set I've been playing around with on cart and on Showdown.
Terapagos @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tera Shell
EVs: 4 HP / 116 Def / 236 SpA / 12 SpD / 140 Spe
Tera type: Stellar
Modest Nature
- Tera Starstorm
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Hyper Beam / Tri Attack / Sleep Talk
I've tried Calm Mind Terapagos, it's just too slow to get going in this meta and too easily revenge killed. So I swapped it out for Specs and never looked back. You want to pair it with stuff that deals with Fighting types, like Shadowrex, Lunala and Zacian. Shadowrex can punish Wide Guard with Encore and Disable, Lunala can set Tailwind or Trick Room, Zacian is perfectly happy not to tera. Other good teammates: Tornadus and Whimiscott to set Tailwind, both also smack Fighting types and can stop Wide Guard. Chi-Yu lets it hit harder, also OHKOes both Wide Guard using restricteds with its STABs.
Edit: Speed EVs let it outrun Jolly Scarf Urshifu in Tailwind, SpA hits the highest jump point, the Def lets it always live +1 252 Impish Zamazenta Body Press, 252 Atk Urshifu Close Combat and Collision Course from bulky Koraidon without sun
Terapagos @ Choice Specs
Ability: Tera Shell
EVs: 4 HP / 116 Def / 236 SpA / 12 SpD / 140 Spe
Tera type: Stellar
Modest Nature
- Tera Starstorm
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- Hyper Beam / Tri Attack / Sleep Talk
I've tried Calm Mind Terapagos, it's just too slow to get going in this meta and too easily revenge killed. So I swapped it out for Specs and never looked back. You want to pair it with stuff that deals with Fighting types, like Shadowrex, Lunala and Zacian. Shadowrex can punish Wide Guard with Encore and Disable, Lunala can set Tailwind or Trick Room, Zacian is perfectly happy not to tera. Other good teammates: Tornadus and Whimiscott to set Tailwind, both also smack Fighting types and can stop Wide Guard. Chi-Yu lets it hit harder, also OHKOes both Wide Guard using restricteds with its STABs.
Edit: Speed EVs let it outrun Jolly Scarf Urshifu in Tailwind, SpA hits the highest jump point, the Def lets it always live +1 252 Impish Zamazenta Body Press, 252 Atk Urshifu Close Combat and Collision Course from bulky Koraidon without sun
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Do you think its damage output is still good? I do think Specs does have some merit following inspiration to the late Reg F Teams with like Tornadus ,Flutter ,Chi Yu ,Dark Urshifu , Wellspring + Special Attacker and it could be cool as a more immediately offensive present mon IF the damage is still good
While it’s not on par with Miraidon in terms of sheer damage, you still won’t be wanting for power. It’s aldo much more durable, has a STAB that nothing resists, and punishes other tera users.
Calcs:
236+ SpA Choice Specs Terapagos-Terastal Tera Starstorm vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Calyrex-Ice Rider: 99-117 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
236+ SpA Choice Specs Tera-Stellar Terapagos-Stellar Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Calyrex-Ice Rider: 192-228 (92.7 - 110.1%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
236+ SpA Choice Specs Tera-Stellar Terapagos-Stellar Tera Starstorm vs. 244 HP / 52 SpD Incineroar: 103-122 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ SpA Choice Specs Tera-Stellar Terapagos-Stellar Earth Power vs. 92 HP / 4 SpD Zamazenta-Crowned: 152-180 (84.9 - 100.5%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
236+ SpA Choice Specs Tera-Stellar Terapagos-Stellar Tera Starstorm vs. 244 HP / 108 SpD Amoonguss: 106-125 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO
236+ SpA Choice Specs Tera-Stellar Terapagos-Stellar Tera Starstorm vs. 212 HP / 4 SpD Flutter Mane: 77-91 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.88% chance to 2HKO
Untitled 8 https://share.google/QkZ5pj9DnNlOB908k
Sorry, semi new to team building. I wanted to use Iron Valiant because it has potential, but is it horrible?
Sorry, semi new to team building. I wanted to use Iron Valiant because it has potential, but is it horrible?
Miraidon + CIR + Iron Valiant seems like a good core, but the other three mons don't make sense; Amoonguss and Indeedee have anti-synergy with Miraidon due to Miraidon preventing Amoonguss from putting things to sleep thanks to Electric Terrain, while also replacing Indeedee's own terrain.
Incineroar is fine, but you can use a better item like Assault Vest or Rocky Helmet since Electric Terrain already prevents Spore.
CIR and Miraidon's sets are also kinda weird, there is no reason to have Expanding Force CIR since its Special Attack is so low, even with Psychic Terrain, I would recommend Trick Room instead for a form of speed control CIR can abuse. AV Miraidon isnt bad, but I think Choice Specs is a better set here due to be more threatening with its Volt Switches and can be potent with CIR's Ice STAB.
I think a comp of mons like
seems alright or something like that.Thank you, the new composition looks awesome. I just want to explain some decisions made and ask some clarifying questions.Miraidon + CIR + Iron Valiant seems like a good core, but the other three mons don't make sense; Amoonguss and Indeedee have anti-synergy with Miraidon due to Miraidon preventing Amoonguss from putting things to sleep thanks to Electric Terrain, while also replacing Indeedee's own terrain.
Incineroar is fine, but you can use a better item like Assault Vest or Rocky Helmet since Electric Terrain already prevents Spore.
CIR and Miraidon's sets are also kinda weird, there is no reason to have Expanding Force CIR since its Special Attack is so low, even with Psychic Terrain, I would recommend Trick Room instead for a form of speed control CIR can abuse. AV Miraidon isnt bad, but I think Choice Specs is a better set here due to be more threatening with its Volt Switches and can be potent with CIR's Ice STAB.
I think a comp of mons like
1. I forgot Sleep was cancelled by electric terrain
2. Im keeping assault vest CIR cause I would rather not lose protect
3. I need an alternative Follow Me user, and after reading this am running Wellspring for coverage against incineroar, urshifu r, kyogre and overall damage dealing follow me user. Is this good?
4. What do you want me to do with Farigiraf on the team, besides the obvious trick room cancel fake out
5. Ive been having a lot of success with a new composition and I haven't seen any major issues as of around 1200 elo. Tell me what you think
https://share.google/vqfqPvCik0gevEPYp
The team looks much better, but there are some changes I would make. You don't seem to have Farigiraf to set Trick Room, so using Trick Room on CIR I feel will help out much more than Body Press will (I know three of your Pokemon are pretty fast, but there are a lot of cases where Trick Room could be helpful, i.e. against teams with Tailwind), and changing Mirai's Tera to Fairy and using Dazzling Gleam over Snarl is much better with Choice Specs, which can threaten both Korai and Mirai and just provide powerful spread damage, with or without Tera.
Other minor changes I would make is changing Hands's Tera to Bug or Water, both are good in their own right, giving Valiant Focus Sash because you already get the Quark Drive boost under E Terrain.
would work, dropping Incineroar since you already have Fake Out.
Here's a Farig set btw:
Farigiraf @ Electric Seed
Level: 50
Ability: Armor Tail
EVs: 236 HP / 164 Def / 108 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Water
Bold Nature
- Foul Play
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
Other minor changes I would make is changing Hands's Tera to Bug or Water, both are good in their own right, giving Valiant Focus Sash because you already get the Quark Drive boost under E Terrain.
Yeah I think Ogerpon is fine here, though do watch out for Urshifu-R's Close Combat and U-turn, and Kyogre's Ice Beam.
Electric Seed Farig is helpful against Calyrex-S and opposing Calyrex-I which can be a pain, and has Trick Room and Helping Hand, meaning Farig could set Trick Room for Calyrex-I and Iron Hands and use Helping Hand for support. Armor Tail is also very important on a team with Choice Specs Mirai. I don't think Farig is mandatory, but it can come clutch in a lot of scenarios. If you were having trouble putting Farig on the team, I think something like
would work, dropping Incineroar since you already have Fake Out.Here's a Farig set btw:
Farigiraf @ Electric Seed
Level: 50
Ability: Armor Tail
EVs: 236 HP / 164 Def / 108 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Water
Bold Nature
- Foul Play
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
I don't think necessary agree with Farigiraf over Incineroar. Firstly, it's nice to have 2 different fake out users which can do different things and i often find myself picking both. Also, with trick room I think my team is stronger out of it, even against Twind teams, so i prefer to play in trick room by my opponents will. I generally like Snarl for Lunala coverage which is something I can't do much against.The team looks much better, but there are some changes I would make. You don't seem to have Farigiraf to set Trick Room, so using Trick Room on CIR I feel will help out much more than Body Press will (I know three of your Pokemon are pretty fast, but there are a lot of cases where Trick Room could be helpful, i.e. against teams with Tailwind), and changing Mirai's Tera to Fairy and using Dazzling Gleam over Snarl is much better with Choice Specs, which can threaten both Korai and Mirai and just provide powerful spread damage, with or without Tera.
Other minor changes I would make is changing Hands's Tera to Bug or Water, both are good in their own right, giving Valiant Focus Sash because you already get the Quark Drive boost under E Terrain.
Yeah I think Ogerpon is fine here, though do watch out for Urshifu-R's Close Combat and U-turn, and Kyogre's Ice Beam.
Electric Seed Farig is helpful against Calyrex-S and opposing Calyrex-I which can be a pain, and has Trick Room and Helping Hand, meaning Farig could set Trick Room for Calyrex-I and Iron Hands and use Helping Hand for support. Armor Tail is also very important on a team with Choice Specs Mirai. I don't think Farig is mandatory, but it can come clutch in a lot of scenarios. If you were having trouble putting Farig on the team, I think something like
Here's a Farig set btw:
Farigiraf @ Electric Seed
Level: 50
Ability: Armor Tail
EVs: 236 HP / 164 Def / 108 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Tera Type: Water
Bold Nature
- Foul Play
- Psychic
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
I think right now the main things I need are reshiram coverage and more coverage against fairy,
Choosing Incin over Farig is fair, I understand. You don't really need coverage against Reshiram, which is pretty much non existent. Fairies seem like a problem yeah, but tbf the only Fairies in the meta right now is Zacian-C and Flutter Mane, which I think you can handle just fine. As for the Tailwind statement, I don't really agree, a well played Tailwind can really make your team crumble tbh, and without Trick Room, you can't really do anything about stuff like Choice Specs Miraidon and Choice Band Urshifu-R. It's playable, yes, but you will be fighting a uphill battle.
Could I possibly just add a tailwind user instead of something like Ogerpon or Iron Hands, who are currently the weak links
Perhaps, tho you have some really slow Pokémon on your team which would appreciate trick room (iron hands and calyrex I). The relationship between tailwind oriented game plans and trick room oriented game plans is that the trick room game plan has a significant advantage. If you both run tailwind the matchup will be much more even - you may even be disadvantaged if your opponent has naturally faster Pokémon. If you ask me dropping one of high horsepower or body press on calyrex i is a sensible idea (especially as ground and fighting hit a lot of similar types like steel).
If you want to commit to body press on calyrex i, the electric seed is an item you could consider on it for a damage boost and a defence boost. If you decide to keep iron hands I’d recommend investing in its special defence a lot more (it gets massive when you combine it with assault vest) and changing its Tera type to something defensive like water or bug. There are some sample spreads on the smogon dex if your interested.
I hope your laddering goes well :)
Hello I’m wanting to get into VGC. I have a question but I’m gonna make a LC comparison because LC is my best format.
In LC I really like playing with eviolite vullaby. It’s a really easy to use early game breaker because it has a almost unresisted stab combo (very few things in the meta resist brave bird, those that do don’t take it well) so it can get pretty free early damage, and is really good at setting up teammates for the late game, it’s also a wall breaker that doesn’t need a choice band and can switch up moves making it easy to use.
Are there any mons (both restricted and regular) like that in VGC? Solid attack options and stab typing that make its attacks relatively free into most of the meta for early game wall breaking, and doesn’t need to be locked into a choice item?
tl;dr what a good wall breaker that doesn’t need a choice item?
In LC I really like playing with eviolite vullaby. It’s a really easy to use early game breaker because it has a almost unresisted stab combo (very few things in the meta resist brave bird, those that do don’t take it well) so it can get pretty free early damage, and is really good at setting up teammates for the late game, it’s also a wall breaker that doesn’t need a choice band and can switch up moves making it easy to use.
Are there any mons (both restricted and regular) like that in VGC? Solid attack options and stab typing that make its attacks relatively free into most of the meta for early game wall breaking, and doesn’t need to be locked into a choice item?
tl;dr what a good wall breaker that doesn’t need a choice item?
Life Orb Shadow Calyrex is a strong wallbreaker, but it can also sweep late game. Ditto for Life Orb Koraidon. Mystoc Water Kyogre is good to open some holes for the rest of your team. Both Urshifu formes hit really hard, if you want to focus on wallbreaking use Life Orb or Choice Band.
Pretty much any Pokémon that doesn’t have supportive duties meets this criteria, urshifus, pretty much every viable restricted bar maybe zamazenta-c and Lunala (who are more supportive), landorus, ogerpon-h, ogerpon-c, chien pao, chi-yu. Cause of vgc being 2v2 it’s really unlikely that both the opposing Pokémon on the field resist both your STAB attacks, so you should really always have something to target.
Agree, that is a great insight.
Another factor for that might be the importance of terastalization under double legendary regs, which make bulk legendaries much harder to be opped and knocked out (e.g., tera-water CIR, tera-fairy luna, and zama for every usable tera). And when your opponent is switching and trying to trade for your threatening legends, 'fast' non-legendary got their stages (I mean, including ursaluna and landorous against zama under tr). Since opportunities gonna fleets within seconds, these mons are more dependent on their OHKO moves.
However, some of them are using players' "stereotypes" to play supportive roles, or vice versa. Like Orgerpons, cheinpao and landorous, it's hard to tell whether it's going to threaten your mons or attract your attack to build up for their offensive mons.
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seen some of the discussion above on specs pagos. I 100% agree as a specs pagos user rn. It's a great wall breaker, especially in baby form where baby Tera Starstorm can chunk most things for more than 50%. Once it teras, its also great at just spreading consistent damage across the board, opening up lines where a faster mon can clean up against damaged foes, like a scarf Urshifu.