Metagame SS PU - A comprehensive look at PUBL

[DugZa]

I already mentioned in the PU cord that this thread would be happening sometime after PUPL, and it's finally here. It is a widely accepted opinion that tiering of SS PU was poorly handled for the majority of the generation and has led to a metagame that most players dislike today. Talks about changes to the tier, namely unbanning certain PUBL Pokemon, are brought up regularly during team tournament season, but usually fade away once the tournament is over. However, we've decided to put an end to that and start a serious discussion about this. Please note that this thread does NOT guarantee that any unbans will occur.

The current PUBL list is as follows;

​

The goal of this thread is to discuss and pinpoint 2-3 Pokemon at most that might be worth suspect testing to be unbanned. Some of the Pokémon that have been repeatedly mentioned as good candidates for unbanning in previous discussions are Virizion, Espeon, Guzzlord, and Kingler, among others. Please give your thoughts on this. If there is sufficient support after a thorough discussion, we can proceed with a survey.

Reiterating that this is by no means a guarantee of unbans, I hope we can have a good discussion on the topic!

Tagging players who have been involved with the tier regularly/played it in tournaments (sorry if I forgot anyone).
Dj Breloominati♬ gum OranBerryBlissey10 The Strap Lambovino Bloshh LustfulLice Ming549 avarice Tenebricite Drud zS Danny seraphz Xiri Leni Pangoro mj Meru pdt TJ eifo sugar ovens yandaud termi hex Oathkeeper

 

[The Strap]

I'm not the most experienced ss pu player but the only mons i could see potentially returning are Virizon and maybe Scyther. the rest of the mons on this list I could see pose as serious threats to this balanced metagame.

Araquanid: web setter with an absurd ability
Clawitzer, Drampa, Exeggutor, Inteleon, Vanuxille: specs mons that have practically zero good checks
Duraludon : good bulky typing with a good moveset
Espeon, Omastar, Kingdra, Raichu-A: dangerous set up mons
Scrafty: bulky mon with a wide variety of sets and utility
Guzzlord: offensive and defensive mon that can do it all + massive movepool
Zoroark: Illusion + mixed sets go insane
Kingler: 130 attack with sheer force has almost no good switchins

 

[UberSkitty]

Not an option mentioned on here, but I'm still team ban Gigalith >:(
That aside, Guzzlord or Drampa could be fun to have, but are prob still too offensively overwhelming. Virizion seems like the best option if any.

 

[DugZa]

Vulpix03 Excal Meri Berry ishtar Oathkeeper 2xTheTap some others I forgot to tag, sorry :(

 

[sugar ovens]

Espeon, Guzzlord, Scyther, Virizion and Araquanid was the idea, i suppose Scrafty could be added to the list now.

The four (or five) have interesting utility both offensively and defensively, with some counterplay in the current metagame, and being additional checks to each other. Araquanid is a B-rank mon that was quickbanned in an overly careful decision during SCL, and not unbanned as a result of, well, mostly what we see now - "how does freeing this improve the tier" stuff. This has been floating around as a possibility for years and years, I would love to finally see the idea properly tried out and tested, over the constant theorymoning about what adds what to the metagame and what's too much and what's too little - to prevent even a damn test, not unban, just a suspect test. Maybe something will still end up being broken, but i'd like to see us try regardless..

 

[Dj Breloominati♬]

I am of the sentiment that the tier is in a particularly good state right now. Especially this year, I'd say multiple people pushed the metagame forward in many interesting aspects instead of recycling the same teams that went out of fashion a while back (can elaborate on the same if there is interest!). We should definitely talk about whether or not there is truly an issue at hand before trying to jump ship and freeing mons, even as a "suspect test".

I wish to see some finite discussion given we are talking about we are talking about changes to a tier that many, including myself, feel is stable and enjoyable. Most complaints can be properly analysed if we get answers to these two fundamental questions :
- What do you not like about the tier? What aspects of it do you find "boring"?
- What "problems" will the unbanning of a certain mon "fix"?

Wish that all the people who wish to see a change actually participate and share their thoughts.

 

[Lambovino]

While I enjoy playing the tier as it is rn, I believe it could get better.

By "better" I mean my personnal definition, which is :

- More fun to play (ex: Some people voiced concerns about the tier being too boring when the main archetype, gigaslash and more specifically the fat variations, is being played, and there are not *that* much advantages to play something else than this archetype, at least when you are not trying to actively prep for someone)

- More diverse (this is linked to the fun, but rn we have some restrictions in the builder that forces some slots, notably if you are trying to check all grassy terrain sweepers, LO sandslash, fat stack hazard teams, alongside some more niche but very good picks like magneton, articuno galar, etc... with a single team)

- More fair (The tier can reward good prep or good building, BUT I really think that cheese can have too much importance, or at the very least it is sometimes too MU reliant, and you just have to look at the win rate of grassy terrain teams, stall teams, or just how many games have been decided almost purely by match up in the last tournaments to see stats of that)


I think this can be achieved by 2 ways, either Unbanning a lot of pokemons or Banning more pokemons.
I do not think unbanning 1 pokemon will fix all the "issues", the problem is way too deep to just have a miracle solution appear like that.

I do not know if unbanning 4-5 pokemons at one time will create a tier that is better to play, but I'd say that nobody can predict for sure what it will look like, so I would be for giving it a try, just to see where it goes.



That being said, this is what I would vote for personally, in this order :

- Try to suspect an unban of virizion, espeon, guzzlord, scyther and araquanid. All of them are either a bit too strong for the current tier or doesn't bring enough help to make it better, BUT all of them together could potentially bring a balance that could be fun, diverse, and fair. They would bring new tools to deal with some of the current annoying mons, while also maybe keeping themselves in check. I'll add, please do not unban Scrafty, this pokemon is a demon and you'll regret it everytime you have to swictch your fairy type into a poison jab to prevent it from dragon dancing it's way to victory. Same for drampa, you'll be happy to see it until it OHKOs your gigalith with dm...

- Try to ban some more pokemons, that are not broken, but are annoying or unfair to face. For example, Grassy seed, which the mons that uses it have a lot of checks, but is annoying to deal with when you want more diversity

- If both options do not create a better tier, i'll be fine keeping it as it is for sure

 

[gulch]

generally agree that we don't need to change anything, the meta appears functional in tours and the main dedicated playerbase does seem to enjoy it. as someone who's been around it over the past several tour cycles and involved in helping with prep as a manager, i'd like to give my two cents:

- DO NOT UNBAN SCRAFTY PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
- Lambo talked about banning some things, and there are a few candidates I wanted to name specifically in this regard to jumpstart the discussion. Centiskorch has seen a surge in popularity thanks to being an extremely effective breaker into BO and balance structures, with its near perfect coverage and Fire Lash lowering defense making it nearly impossible to switch into. However, it is extremely vulnerable to Knock Off thanks to its typing and the ease of getting rocks up in this tier. Doublade is one that I've seen draw a lot of people's ire as being generally annoying and stupid, the bulk and STAB priority makes it very, very effective at stealing games, even when they seem completely lost. Grassy Terrain is also brought up often when "bad" aspects of the tier are discussed, and I think that if you wanted to make a ban to target the playstyle then the best option would likely be Thievul due to its coverage and Dark Pulse's ability to cause some squiggly game states. That said, I don't know if I feel that removing a Dark from the tier is wise considering they're already extremely limited with Sneasel, Shiftry, and Absol all having their own problems.
- I don't really think any of the candidates for unbans would be good picks. I do know that Araquanid and Guzzlord apparently did not get the same due process as the others, and if we want to retest them for that reason, then sure, fine. However, I feel like most of these are banned for good reason, and (to paraphrase gum's discord posts) I think we should also be wary of the potential long term strains of freeing things into a meta that only sees regular development during tournaments. In addition, some of them are just... better versions of things we have already (see: Vanilluxe, Espeon, Scyther). Espeon in particular seems gross for the cheese potential, too, assuming Grassy Terrain remains unchanged.
- Virizion is the thing I've seen the most people mention as a potential healthy unban. While we have things like Eldegoss, Weezing, Doublade, some Silvally forms, etc., I'm still not sure if it's a good idea to release something so effective at victimizing the most common balance core in the tier, alongside common inclusions such as Wishiwashi, Audino, and Jellicent. In fact, I feel that by forcing these Giga Slash balances to start stacking checks such as Weezing and Eldegoss would actually make the perceived homogenization in the tier worse.

thank u for ur time <3

 

[hex]

chungus

These are all strong Water types that break through the tier way too easily. If you aren't running a water absorb Jellicent just FF (they can break past water absorbers anyway lol). I'm not trying to speak in absolutes just trying to be concise, there are maybe some water types here that can be fine but I just don't see it personally.

Actually not too sure what to think of this one. I want to say both offensive/defensive sets would be hard to deal with. It's got good offensive stats for a PU tier, and with easy access to clerics/wish passhing its not hard to keep Dura alive through the course of a game.

Specs = clicks until they win with no real checks as Strap said.

Way too much versatility to reliably beat in game. Guzzlord just clicks versus everything and has the coverage to do so (quite bulky as well, can run Rest too with all the clerics in the tier) and Zoroark has a similar capability.

- I feel like Raichu could be chill lowkey but that's not a great way to present my opinion oops. At +2 it seems like it wouldn't have much trouble just winning games probably, but it seems not as potent as some as the other mons here. Still wouldn't advocate for it to be freed anyway as this mon + Sceptile just promote more terrain gameplay that people don't enjoy seeing and are complaining about.

- Scyther is way too good at getting and retaining momentum, too good at it imo and wouldn't be healthy. Virizion has a rly good offensive typing and I cant think of a mon that it would struggle to really break past (besides Gourgeist/Doublade). Its speed tier and coverage are great.

Maybe the only one worth revisiting as it was the last suspect in the gen and I think it was kinda back and forth? I could be wrong. But thinking about todays SSPU makes me lean towards that this would also be too broken. Bulky mon with setup and recovery thats not the easiest to break through isn't very inspiring for the tiers health.

I agree with Spitfire though. I think most of this discussion needs to be around why exactly the tier needs to change first. Most people who actively play the tier enjoy it and do not find it worth changing (please correct me if I'm wrong of course). I already talked in PU cord about my points so I don't want to repeat myself too much but SSPU is pretty balanced. Most people call the tier "boring" at worst but I don't see why a tier being "boring" is necessarily a bad thing?. It just seems like we're trying to fix something that isn't broken.

I could maybe see an argument for banning Centiskorch. It is really good at just breaking and winning without much effort. The issue is that its a very good deterrent to stall. People call SS boring because its longer-paced. Banning Centiskorch is only going to promote those longer games, so I don't think that's the issue. Banning Doublade would be an easy net-negative for the tier. It is incredibly good glue (would be required even more if Virizion is unbanned.....) and isn't hard to check really. We have a lot of great options for it like Weezing, Wishiwashi, Eldegoss (with plenty of utility like Sleep Powder, Charm, Leech Seed, etc.), Bulky Vikavolt, Encore+Knock Audino, etc. I don't think Doublade counterplay is hard to find. Late game Doublade is for sure a monster but SSPU is a meta where you have to be good at resource management, and losing to Doublade is usually a result of being worse at it than your opponent.

I think trying to narrow down what Pokemon could be candidates for suspects is fine for sure. I definitely don't agree with unbanning a bunch of mons all at once because they can "maybe" create some sort of broken-checks-broken power system. Not to mention I don't agree with the prospect of unbanning things to make the tier more "fun". It's a subjective argument and why I'm kinda annoying about the fact that calling the tier boring or the tier being boring doesn't really mean anything. It's not boring for everyone that plays it, and again, what does "boring" really mean to the people who want to change the tier? That being said, I do think if it's decided to unban things or whatnot to take it really slow, and maybe run some forum tours with certain mons allowed rather than jumping straight to a suspect. It's an old-gen and my main concern is that as a tier that's only really seeing development during tournament season, trying to re-evaluate the tier can take a very long time. Not saying nothing should happen, but I think taking our time as a community regardless of what side you're on regarding the state of SSPU is important!

 

[zoowi]

- What do you not like about the tier?

gigalith

What aspects of it do you find "boring"?

gigalith

What "problems" will the unbanning of a certain mon "fix"?

gigalith

every mon in PUBL is there for (to make a long story short) one main reason, that it beats gigalith
not even that they're "broken" (some are) but that they beat gigalith and gigalith = the tier so thus, PUBL mons break the tier in that way
point is, if you aren't comfortable with knowing that unbanning any of these will shake up gigalith (and thus the tier) then don't unban anything
if you are ok with that then try pick 1 to try

i dont like gigalith as its ability to trade hits (via toxtect and/or edgequake with sand chip sprinkled in) on anything due to its high bulk, it has great partners to take hits for it on the physical side and on the special side it is impossible to 1hit and likely it will just click rock blast, dealing crazy damage for something with 0 investment and if you somehow killed it via a miracle guess what now theres a sandslash staring you down about to sd and kill yo whole team

i find this mons contribution to the push towards bulky teams it promotes boring, you have to gigalith-proof your team before all else or you will take so much damage trying to deal with it and that you end up losing to its entourage (sandslash, elde, etc) if not it itself

lastly that yes, pretty much all the PUBLs "fix" the this problem by beating it and/or the the teammates it frequently pairs with and this is something i think the tier needs as the lack of such ways of consistently dealing w/ it are currently the tiers main detriment

probably ok:


possibly ok:


probably not ok:


hard no:


also leave centi alone bros job is hard enough

 

[Hera]

talked about this a lot on discord and to summarize, idt there's really a problem with the tier. it seems a lot of complaints are coming from causal spectators who dislike the slow pace of the tier compared to other gens, and while that's a perfectly valid complaint as a spectator, that's not a real problem with the tier and moreso something that impacts your personal enjoyment. I do think it's hard to experiment with anything lower than b or even b+, but i think that's just the inevitability of an old gen becoming more optimized as the meta sits around for awhile. the meta remains competitive and decently creative if you know what you're doing, and idt the tier is as stale as people make it out to be, so my preferred course of action would be to do nothing.

if we had to do something, then i would suggest to fully ban sleep. it's not like an actual problem or anything, but it's become increasingly clear that sleep as a mechanic is very uncompetitive, and i'd rather we just ban sleep entirely than deal with the weird and outdated sleep clause mod. it's not a huge deal if sleep stays but i think this would be the only ban that would improve the tier.

re: unbans, idt you can justify most of them from a tiering perspective. are some of them probably not broken? yeah. but tiering policy makes it clear a mon can't just be not broken, it has to be necessary to be unbanned. like would scyther or virizion be balanced? decent chance. but then you would have to argue what these mons offer, why what it offers is a positive to the tier, and how we can't achieve this without banning something instead of unbanning something. i think the only mon i would vote to suspect, let alone unban, is guzzlord. i have talked about this in the past but the unique circumstances surrounding guzzlord meant it's the only mon on there that wasn't given its due process, being qbed during a pupl and then not retested during or afterwards. even if it was broken, i still think to ban it and then not retest it was a huge misstep when the tier was cg. i think being a fat dark/dragon could offer some important utility as well, adding a thievul switchin (they are not using play rough) and a doub check while spreading knock. again, not a huge deal if it does get retested, or gets retested and it turns out it's super broken, but if we do retest something i would prefer it to be this.

edit: removed an incorrect metaphor

 

[Piyu]

Imo if Dj Breloominati♬ can go 10-1 in any tier, that tier needs heavy reworking for being unserious

 

[Lambovino]

i'm ngl I need some questions to be answered because they come back pretty often, I don't know if the answer should come from PU tier leaders or smogon staff in general, but we need to settle on it :

1- Should we prioritize the people that are playing the tier at the moment over players that could possibly come if there is a change ? As MZ said, a lot of people are not playing the tier because they don't like it. So yes, 100% of the 5-6 people that plays this tier enjoy it, but what about the 10+ people that could come if it was more fitting their tastes ? Should we keep it going this way, so that the people who have invested the more time in the tier (and actually like it) don't "lose" everything, or should we try to make it so the more people possible enjoy the tier ?

2- I saw some people on the discord talk about the "broken vs healthiness" dilemma, notably "only metric should be if it's broken or not what it "adds" to the tier is way too subjective". I think this is another tough question.
I agree that what a pokemon is adding to a tier is subjective, but IMO that's why there is the need for a democratic vote. If we only judge by something as "objective" as if a mon is "broken", why is there the need for a vote from the players ? Also I personally think we should always prioritize the fun over following some unwritten rules for nothing, if a meta is more enjoyable without something, even if it is not broken, we should be able to get rid of it. In our case here, whether we unban or ban something, we should always check if the meta will be more enjoyable, at everyone's appreciation, and do a vote, whether the pokemon seems broken or not.
Ultimately, it is not my job to decide which direction to go, but we NEED more precise rules about that, because I think it would just end the unnecessary debates that everybody has everytime there is a situation like that.


I don't think there is a clear answer to these questions that has already been prepared by the staff or whoever that has the final say on that, so any feedback would be appreciated (at least by me)


Also, to finish, I'll add that some people think the tier could not get any better, or they don't see what change needs to be done, but what would a test cost ? We can just try a few unbans, see where it goes, at worst we'll have lost a few hours of our time playing a different meta, at best we could find a solution to make more people happy. If there is a doubt about if a situation can be solved (whether or not there is a problem in the first place), we SHOULD try to experiment it, it's the easiest way to clear any doubt and not stay locked in the same debates for centuries.

 

[Lyra]

Vulpix03 Excal Meri Berry ishtar Oathkeeper 2xTheTap some others I forgot to tag, sorry :(

Still managed to not ping me >:(
I'll make a post tomorrow or Sunday on my thoughts!