Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners


Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.


Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.


Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.


Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.


Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.


Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.


With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

i'm sorry to be a killjoy but i don't think the oras set has much potential here. i hate to say this because i loved gren back in the day, but it's aged incredibly poorly. protean is no longer the awesome rock-star "stab on everything and a constantly shifting set of defensive matchups" ability that it used to be. nowadays you effectively lock yourself out of all other stabs until you switch, which makes a lot of greninja's calcs not work in practice. you'll find yourself forced to switch out of otherwise advantageous positions because the last thing you killed locked you into a different type than the one that works against the thing that came out after it. after that protean gets popped, greninja just doesn't really hit the good benchmarks for a fast offense guy or a mixed wallbreaker unless you stay clicking the same move. so it's got similar momentum risks to a choice user without having the damage output to match. sure, you can click another move, unlike a choice user, but it's hardly going to do anything and you're gonna be eating lorb recoil + whatever the opponent decides to do back to you which will probably kill because greninja was born with glass bones and paper skin. if anything would work on this set, i'd think it'd probably be specs (with grass knot over low kick obviously)—you're going to be doing most of the same switching and midgrounds and predictions as a choice user, so why not lean into it and just be an actual choice user

now battle bond, on the other hand, i feel like that's got potential. i have a completely unsubstantiated hunch, not backed up by any logic or evidence, that battle bond greninja will make a comeback at some point next spring. no idea why, you'll have to ask whatever cosmic entity beams hunches into my brain

 

[UltraSword]

Hello, it’s been a while since I made a post like this, but I had this question for a while. Can my boi, Greninja find its footing in the great pond of SV OU?

Now most of you are familiar with Greninja as a sweeper. With Battle Bond, it can sweep through teams, outspeeding Scarfers and Booster Energy mons like Scarf Dengo or Booster Val. In theory its quite terrifying, but in practice it falls short of only getting one kill at best due to its immensely fragile froggy body being vulnerable to priority. Greninja also faces competition with Valiant, Darkrai, Dragapult, and Deoxys who not only have a greater offensive presence, but utility as well.

I believe Battle Bond isn’t the way of the ninja. Allow me to re-introduce an ORAS classic, Protean Greninja.

Protean Greninja​

Greninja @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 24 Atk / 232 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Gunk Shot
- Low Kick/Grass Knot

Gren functions better as a mixed wallbreaker than a sweeper. Greninja’s physical movepool is great at catching some of its weakest matchups while its special movepool covers a lot of the physically bulky metagame.

Moveset Rundown
Dark Pulse
-Without Dpulse, Greninja would struggle to crack through Gholdengo, Glowking, and Mola.

Ice Beam
-Imagine Kyurem Ice Beam, but its coming from a base 122 speed mon that doesn’t take 25% from rocks. Compared to the other two fast Ice Beam users (Darkrai/Deo), Greninja has STAB on it if it uses it first when its out thanks to Protean. It nails a ton of Ground types, Zapdos, Dragons, AV Torn, and has high odds of 2-shotting Corv. Even without STAB, its still a very strong coverage option in conjunction with its other coverage.

Gunk Shot
-This 120 BP Poison type move is the real meat of Greninja. 95 base attack isn’t mediocre enough to stop this from OHKOing many Fairies (and Wellspring) in the tier, including AV Primarina and AV Hatt who are established checks to Val and Deoxys. It also does a ton to Tera Fairy users like Garganacl and Gholdengo.

Low Kick
-Low Kick serves a couple purposes. OHKOs Kingambit and 2HKOs Blissey/Ting-Lu with the additional Attack EVs added.

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 330-390 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

24 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 273-322 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass Knot
-If 6-0ing Stall isn’t of your interest, you can always tech Grass Knot which still nails Ting-Lu, but now 2-shots Alomomola with high odds to OHKO Garg after rocks.

Partners


Grassy Terrain offsets LO recoil and it provides Greninja wIth Knock Off support and pivoting.


Can remove hazards or bait in Gholdengo/Zapdos. it can also provide Greninja a safe switch-in with slow U-Turn vs Tusk/Lando/Gliscor.


Glowking is good with any Water/Dark type. Greninja threatens a lot of Glowking’s worst matchups while Glowking can switch into fast Moonblasters like Val or Scarf Enam for Gren. It also provides Future Sight to help Gren break its worst matchup, Toxapex.


Greninja is a fake Dark/Ghost resist, so any team with Greninja needs another, bulkier Dark type. These two are great at accompanying this role. Ting-Lu covers Raging Bolt and provides hazard support, aiding Greninja’s wallbreaking abilities. Kingambit enjoys the pressure Greninja inflicts on Lando/Tusk while tanking Sballs for the frog.


Fairies are tough for Dragapult to crack, especially AV Prima and Tera Fairy Garg. All of those are victims of Greninja’s Gunk Shot. Pult also offers pivoting support, baiting in Dark types and Garganacl.


Any special attacker greatly appreciate Greninja’s ability to 2-shot Blissey, especially these two. Sometimes Greninja can have trouble with AV Mola and Toxapex, but Raging Bolt threatens both and loves a mon that pressures Ground type. Gholdengo also greatly appreciates Greninja’s ability to pressure Kingambit and Ting-Lu, enabling Nasty Plot and Scarf sets. Bulkier variants provide a safe switch into Zamazenta.

Concerns

One of the main reasons Greninja fell off is because of fierce competition and its vulnerability to priority from Thunderclap to Extreme Speed. None of that changes with this set, it’s just now more optimized to wallbreak. However, another Pokemon already fills that role as a fast mixed attacking wallbreaker.


With Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower, and an abundance of coverage options, Deoxys-Speed is very difficult to manage defensively. Add to Nasty Plot sets and you got a Pokemon that can capture the energy of pre-nerf Protean Greninja. Its speed tier not only triumphs over speed demons like Dragapult, but also Tusk, Ghold, and Dnite at +1. It even gets Spikes.

However, Greninja might have a few advantages over Deo.

1: Deoxys-S can be checked by AV Hatt and Primarina. Garganacl could also 1v1 mixed Deoxys (NP is a risk though). These are matchups Greninja can muscle through with Gunk Shot and Low Kick/G-Knot for Garg.

2: Its main STAB, Psycho Boost is incredibly beefy even for this generation’s high standards. However it does leave Deo with -2 SpA. In SV OU’s aggressive metagame, this can be taken advantage of with Tera Dnite and other setup sweepers. Psychic is also not the greatest attacking type in a tier full of Dark and Steel types. This results in mixed Deo being pivoted around. Greninja doesn’t need to worry about this. STAB Ice Beam tricks alot of switch-ins. You could argue Protean can be exploited in the same matter, but even if Greninja clicks Ice Beam the first turn its out, most Ice resists are deathly afraid of its three other coverage options.

3: Deoxys-S can one-shot Gambit with Superpower or Focus Blast, but this is a risky play because Gambit could stay in and Sucker Punch. Deo-S could tera, but that’s expending a valuable resource which may not be worth it if the Gambit switches out anyways. Greninja has a natural Sucker Punch resistance, so it could stay in to Low Kick the king more safely.

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

I think the main problem with Protean Greninja is that it is just worse Meowscarada in almost every way. Meowscarada is not that good itself but it at least has a lot of really good traits such as strong Knock Off, high speed (which is ironically one point faster than Greninja), and great stab in the form of Flower Trick. Greninja at least has special attacking capabilities where Meowscarada doesn't, but it is still not very strong with only 103 special attack. What made Protean Greninja work in gen 6/7 was it had access to pre nerf Protean which allowed it to get stab on all of its moves and even get defensive utility with its access to spikes giving it electric immunity and a way to force progress. Now its low special attack holds it back since it no longer gets stab on every move it makes and it can't use its defensive utility either since it is so slow compared to many other offensive threats. The point is Protean Greninja does not work well in the current meta. If it had access to Protean at its full potential it probably would be OU (though only because Meowscarada would probably be banned).

 

[Moyashi]

I think the main problem with Protean Greninja is that it is just worse Meowscarada in almost every way. Meowscarada is not that good itself but it at least has a lot of really good traits such as strong Knock Off, high speed (which is ironically one point faster than Greninja), and great stab in the form of Flower Trick. Greninja at least has special attacking capabilities where Meowscarada doesn't, but it is still not very strong with only 103 special attack. What made Protean Greninja work in gen 6/7 was it had access to pre nerf Protean which allowed it to get stab on all of its moves and even get defensive utility with its access to spikes giving it electric immunity and a way to force progress. Now its low special attack holds it back since it no longer gets stab on every move it makes and it can't use its defensive utility either since it is so slow compared to many other offensive threats. The point is Protean Greninja does not work well in the current meta. If it had access to Protean at its full potential it probably would be OU (though only because Meowscarada would probably be banned).

This isn’t really true and I’m confused why this notion still exists. Meow and Gren fulfill very different roles, attacking on different offensive sides. The fact that Meowscarada is more of a long term progress maker with knock off, but it has such a vulnerability to contact punishing effects (quite prevalent in this metagame) hinders its consistency, in addition to it generally being dependent on prediction when running choice sets and teams are simply too loaded with answers to it to make it super scary. Now, a Banded Meow can still put in work on occasion but again, it relies on prediction due to its stabs being commonly resisted. (And as an aside, FlowerTrick is strong but it’s not a good offensive type which hinders Meow)

Greninja on the other hand has no fear of contact punishing, and attacking on the special side has merit when lots of prominent stopgaps used (Pecharunt, Dragonite, the birds) all tend towards physical bulk, so it can prey on this aspect of the metagame. It has small but legitimate defensive use in checking Gholdengo. It doesn’t love Bolt existing to sponge water STAB, but both Specs Dark Pulse and more important Ice Beam keep the dragon from freely switching in without risk.

Of course Greninja also suffers from flaws like prediction reliance, not quite being strong enough to just down fully healthy threats, and like Meow, hates hazards, but it certainly isn’t just “worse meow in almost every way”. It’s quite distinct and does its own thing.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

This isn’t really true and I’m confused why this notion still exists. Meow and Gren fulfill very different roles, attacking on different offensive sides. The fact that Meowscarada is more of a long term progress maker with knock off, but it has such a vulnerability to contact punishing effects (quite prevalent in this metagame) hinders its consistency, in addition to it generally being dependent on prediction when running choice sets and teams are simply too loaded with answers to it to make it super scary. Now, a Banded Meow can still put in work on occasion but again, it relies on prediction due to its stabs being commonly resisted. (And as an aside, FlowerTrick is strong but it’s not a good offensive type which hinders Meow)

Greninja on the other hand has no fear of contact punishing, and attacking on the special side has merit when lots of prominent stopgaps used (Pecharunt, Dragonite, the birds) all tend towards physical bulk, so it can prey on this aspect of the metagame. It has small but legitimate defensive use in checking Gholdengo. It doesn’t love Bolt existing to sponge water STAB, but both Specs Dark Pulse and more important Ice Beam keep the dragon from freely switching in without risk.

Of course Greninja also suffers from flaws like prediction reliance, not quite being strong enough to just down fully healthy threats, and like Meow, hates hazards, but it certainly isn’t just “worse meow in almost every way”. It’s quite distinct and does its own thing.

the reason why this belief is so hard to kill, i think, is because the mons' designs rhyme. they're both fast, frail dark-type starters with protean, they're both signature-ish mons of an anime protagonist, they both conform to the "gee i sure wonder which starter is going to be in the next smash bros wink wink nudge nudge" design philosophy, and so on. they're so similar in so many other ways that you can't help but subconsciously try to compare them to each other competitively, even though all their competitive similarities are very surface-level and they occupy completely different roles

The point is Protean Greninja does not work well in the current meta. If it had access to Protean at its full potential it probably would be OU (though only because Meowscarada would probably be banned).

i don't know about meowscarada being banned if protean hadn't been nerfed. it lessens the prediction burden a lot and makes meowscarada much better and less switch-reliant, but would that break the mon in an environment this powercrept? an environment where everyone can pop a mid-battle type change and the meta is defined largely by who can take the best advantage of that? i have my doubts

 

[toshimelonhead]

I don't know if Greninja is just a different Meowscarada in frog form. The bigger issue is the power creep. It's not fast enough to outspeed the heavy hitters before Battle Bond (Dragapult, Zamazenta) and isn't bulky enough to take any type of attack. Even with nice but not great attacking stats that combination is a death sentence in SV OU. In UU it can shine because the power creepers are kicked upstairs, but SV OU has no room for glass cannons that aren't broken in other ways.

As for Slither Wing...Tusk is actually one of its worst matchups depending on the set if it doesn't have Will-o-Wisp. The Bulk Up Rapid Spin sets can set up with little concern for Slither Wing's other attacks. I like it better as a Kingambit and Wellspring check. First Impression with more bulk than Lokix at the cost of less attacking power is really nice to have. The really bulky ones can at least switch into Kyurem (barely, but even barely is impressive given Kyurem's attack power). Sample set below. Speed is enough for outspeeding Kingambit, Adamant gets an OHKO on Wellspring with First Impression, rest in HP and Defense. Tera is flexible, but when in doubt in SV OU, pick Tera Fairy. It might prevent Kyurem or Dragapult from dropping a draco at the worst moment.


Slither Wing @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Def / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- U-turn / Will-o-Wisp

 

[Rekka's Backend]

"gee i sure wonder which starter is going to be in the next smash bros wink wink nudge nudge" design philosophy

ok but Meow in Smash would go hard as fuck. Unlike Greninja which is a FRAUD in smash. I'm still incredibly irate that we never got silly kitty in that game as DLC somehow.

anyhows...

But what are your thoughts? Is Greninja capable of making a comeback, or is it forever doomed to languish in “shitmon that gets sacked in the video featuring it” tier?

I do think Greninja has potential. I used it for awhile as a TB Fairy answer for some threats a few months back and it was surprisingly fun to use on the team. I think it definitely needs hazard support though, spikes at least. Just because so many good OU mons are also bulky enough to just live one Protean hit usually.

 

[ShieldPhoenix]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

 

[658Greninja]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

Generally speaking, Gliscor complaints have subsided. SD Gliscor structures aren’t as popular as they were back in late 2024/early 2025. The increased usage of Corv/G-Weez meant that SD Gliscor isn’t a free win vs Balance/Stall structures anymore. SD variants lack defensive utility, so you could safely switch into your Wellspring or Tusk as long as you keep hazards off. Players have also gotten better at pressuring Gliscor offensively with random Ice Beam mons and strong breakers like Wellspring. Being forced to Tera can hinder Gliscor if Spikes are up.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

this post highlights a possible ideological difference between ban and DNB voters. The ban side often says stuff like "when will you realize x is broken"... the DNB side aims to preserve the status quo since unban tests are so rare on the forums especially in OU

Once a pokemon is banned, it is gone forever, with rare exceptions. The ban side needs to understand this before going forward.

 

[JackRG]

this post highlights a possible ideological difference between ban and DNB voters. The ban side often says stuff like "when will you realize x is broken"... the DNB side aims to preserve the status quo since unban tests are so rare on the forums especially in OU

Once a pokemon is banned, it is gone forever, with rare exceptions. The ban side needs to understand this before going forward.

how can someone asking a single question get turned into a whole ideological debate bro. I don't really know who doesn't understand this btw, that is literally the whole reason suspect tests exist. Stuff isn't retested often because there (typically) isn't much of a reason to retest something that has already been established as broken.

 

[toshimelonhead]

this post highlights a possible ideological difference between ban and DNB voters. The ban side often says stuff like "when will you realize x is broken"... the DNB side aims to preserve the status quo since unban tests are so rare on the forums especially in OU

Once a pokemon is banned, it is gone forever, with rare exceptions. The ban side needs to understand this before going forward.

I consider this "mostly true" -- but "forever" gets reset at every release. It just feels long now since we haven't had a release or even a minor game release in a long stretch. Gliscor came back even in gen 9 with new releases.

 

[Karxrida]

tbf unbans within the same generation are indeed quite rare. Gliscor returning so quickly was kind of an anomaly all things considered.

But trying to emphasize the "they're gone forever" aspect does the opposite of helping your stance. That's kind of a selling point for the people who want to ban shit.

 

[UltraSword]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

I believe the Gliscor suspect (the dnb one) came at a time when the best pokemon were considered to be Great Tusk and Kingambit. Since that time, Ting-Lu (and Dragonite but that isn't important to this discussion) has been moved up to S tier while Great Tusk and Kingambit were moved to S-. The thing that makes this important is that Ting-Lu is a lot better as a hazard setter/wall than Gliscor in most instances. Gliscor is still has its place on teams where Ting-Lu wouldn't fit as well but it has become pretty clear (at least in my experience) that if Ting-Lu, the 155 hp 125 defense behemoth who also has great special defense thanks to its ability, isn't broken then Gliscor definitely isn't. As for SD sets, uuuuuuh I am not really sure why anyone really considered them broken. Gliscor definitely has longevity that most offensive pokemon would die for and Facade without the usual drawbacks is pretty strong, but it is still coming off of a pokemon with 95 attack. But maybe that is just me. I do not believe Gliscor is broken or unhealthy in any way at the moment.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

how can someone asking a single question get turned into a whole ideological debate bro. I don't really know who doesn't understand this btw, that is literally the whole reason suspect tests exist. Stuff isn't retested often because there (typically) isn't much of a reason to retest something that has already been established as broken.

if there's something about Gen 9 that stands out it is pokemon surviving suspect tests that people keep complaining about. The pro-ban arguments have been really abrasive, since people create a quick first impression and build their arguments based on said impression. Changing the status quo is hard since it's a 60% threshold.

There are always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon. The philosophy of this metagame doesn't allow this to happen.

 

[Moyashi]

if there's something about Gen 9 that stands out it is pokemon surviving suspect tests that people keep complaining about. The pro-ban arguments have been really abrasive, since people create a quick first impression and build their arguments based on said impression. Changing the status quo is hard since it's a 60% threshold.

There are always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon. The philosophy of this metagame doesn't allow this to happen.

Only a small handful of Pokemon avoided bans via tests. Not sure what that has anything to do with anything.

What comments pro ban have been abrasive? I’m not gonna say there aren’t any since I’ve seen some myself, but you’re implying most of them tend to be which is just a bit silly.

But more to the point, there isn’t “always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon” and you haven’t really made compelling arguments for retesting anything. You’ve vaguely implied banned mons have lots of counterplay but then not listed what said counterplay is. Fact is, most everything (if not everything) in the current banlist that was banned this gen has multiple good reasons to be banned still.

 

[JackRG]

if there's something about Gen 9 that stands out it is pokemon surviving suspect tests that people keep complaining about. The pro-ban arguments have been really abrasive, since people create a quick first impression and build their arguments based on said impression. Changing the status quo is hard since it's a 60% threshold.

There are always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon. The philosophy of this metagame doesn't allow this to happen.

Its true gen 9 is different from anything we've had in the past, but I don't think that has anything to do with the community itself. It's more so the obscene shit that has released this gen. Retests tend to happen after the general consenus is that the metagame is balanced (SV OU is better than it used to be, but not there yet). Even then I feel the tests that would make the most sense would be mons like solgaleo that haven't gotten a fair shot yet.

 

[Welcome to mars]

Do people know still think gliscor is unhealthy for the tier, or has that died down completely?

Gliscor is still strong, but I don’t believe it is broken due to its swords dance sets relying mostly on taking multiple hits to sweep (which isn’t impossible, but also is not entirely easy) , its also not as dominant in ladder or tours as it was a few months ago, where it was considered for tiering action by the council. This is due to shifts in the meta such as the rise of galarian weezing with neutralising gas to disable poison heal or wellspring gaining even more usage, which has resulted in sentiments of it being broken dying down. Its still considered a good pokemon but the meta is not entirely as favourable to it rn.

 

[Avira]

Its true gen 9 is different from anything we've had in the past, but I don't think that has anything to do with the community itself. It's more so the obscene shit that has released this gen. Retests tend to happen after the general consenus is that the metagame is balanced (SV OU is better than it used to be, but not there yet). Even then I feel the tests that would make the most sense would be mons like solgaleo that haven't gotten a fair shot yet.

Yeah, I'm Tapu Bulu is huffing big copium in saying that the pro-ban side is abrasive when it was mostly CTC on the anti-ban side who was getting banned for toxicity.

He also never names good counterplay to said mons he believes aren't broken, merely saying that there is, expecting people to take his word at face value.

Nothing that has already been banned this generation makes sense for a retest as you say, and Solgaleo, which likely wouldn't even be among the Top 3 best mons in SV OU if it were dropped, is probably the mon most deserving of a test.

To end this talk about Ubers, I was not surprised to see Tornadus-Therian usage rise in August compared to July. It's a very good progress maker, and I'm glad people have caught on to how good it is. I expect it and Rillaboom to rise to OU next month. Heatran is a 50/50, but I'm guessing it won't rise.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

if there's something about Gen 9 that stands out it is pokemon surviving suspect tests that people keep complaining about.

all right, let's fact-check this by breaking down each of the 17 suspects this generation has had thus far:

1. tera survived its suspect and has received complaints (many valid, but many others not) throughout the entire gen, so i could count this one in your favor even though it's not exactly a pokemon
2. chien-pao was banned, though it did take way longer than it probably should've
3. walking wake survived its suspect but hasn't been complained about since... well, pretty much since the suspect. nobody considers walking wake broken anymore, and not many people even consider it to be particularly good—it's barely hanging on to its position in the tier
4. zama did survive its suspect and was complained about for a good long while. not sure whether to count this as a point in favor of your claim or not, since the complaints have pretty much completely died down and even when people complained about zama the general consensus was that it's a healthy presence
5. fuck this thing. this is definitely the most prominent example of what you're talking about
6. bloodmoon got absolutely slaughtered in its suspect, and for good reason
7. this guy didn't survive either of its suspects
8. the first gliscor suspect ended in a ban, but for the rest of dlc1 we had people complaining that it shouldn't have, which is the exact opposite phenomenon of what you're claiming
9. kyurem survived its suspect and received enough complaints to hold another suspect, but after the second suspect the complaints eventually fizzled out
10. archaludon was banned. not really much else to say about this one
11. now this is a tricky one because gouging fire did survive an absolutely disastrous first suspect but got overwhelmingly banned on the second go-around. the fact that it survived and was complained about enough to get a second suspect supports your claim, but the actual success of the second suspect, by a massive margin, could be seen as a point against it
12. volcarona didn't survive its suspect and there have been a handful of complaints about its ban, which again is the exact opposite of the claim
13. already covered this one
14. despite the bullshit that happened after the second suspect, the tier has managed to adapt to kyurem pretty handily and nobody is really complaining about it anymore
15. same here, nobody's complaining about gliscor anymore. the complaints stopped shortly after the suspect
16. technically this didn't result in a status quo change, but no one complained about it
17. imagine being suspected twice and banned both times. lmao what a loser

so there have been some cases of failed suspect targets receiving complaints immediately after the suspects, but the only things that are still being complained about after surviving are tera and kingambit. everything else was either banned afterwards or isn't being seriously complained about anymore (and in kyurem's case, for a brief period of time, both)

i'm also not entirely sure what this claim has to do with the other points you're making. like, is it a good thing that mons are surviving their suspects and a bad thing that they're being complained about, or is it the other way around? how does this tie into "the philosophy of this metagame"?

The pro-ban arguments have been really abrasive, since people create a quick first impression and build their arguments based on said impression.

i don't follow. how does people making decisions on what is or isn't broken quickly lead to "abrasive" arguments? why would this only apply to one side? what about the substantial amount of dnb posts that are also toxic? what about the posts that are only abrasive because they're responding to a post using arguments that go against the discussion rules? why is this a worse problem than people making dnb arguments that violate this rule and go unpunished:

Changing the status quo is hard since it's a 60% threshold.

i mean we've pulled it off 8.5 out of 17 times (the .5 is kyurem 2 because that technically did result in a ban for a bit). that's a 50% success rate at changing the status quo, so i wouldn't necessarily call it hard

There are always a lot of good reasons to retest a pokemon. The philosophy of this metagame doesn't allow this to happen.

can you name some of these reasons? you can't just say "there are lots of reasons for this" and then not provide any of them

 

[Seraphyde]

I am still complaining about Gliscor. People didn't stop complaining about Gliscor because it became less problematic, people stopped complaining about it because they just see no use after it survived its suspecting. If people thought that Gliscor could get suspected again, they would complain more vocally in order to get it in motion just like people have been trying to get Tera Blast suspected through endless (justified) complaining. The percentage of Gliscor haters has remained largely stable, despite what Big Stall would like you to believe.

 

[Avira]

Gliscor actually had the highest score (some people misremembered Kyurem as having the highest score) from the qualified demographic on the last OU tiering survey, so there are definitely people who still want tiering action on Gliscor. Finchinator has noted though that there's a lack of urgency from good players to test anything, which is why the proposed tiering survey that was supposed to happen months back keeps getting pushed further back due to there being no clear consensus pick for tiering action from good players. It would not surprise me if the next OU survey is still months away due to the playerbase finding the mons remaining in SV OU much less problematic than mons that have been banned in the past.

 

[UltraSword]

Gliscor actually had the highest score (some people misremembered Kyurem as having the highest score) from the qualified demographic on the last OU tiering survey, so there are definitely people who still want tiering action on Gliscor. Finchinator has noted though that there's a lack of urgency from good players to test anything, which is why the proposed tiering survey that was supposed to happen months back keeps getting pushed further back due to there being no clear consensus pick for tiering action from good players. It would not surprise me if the next OU survey is still months away due to the playerbase finding the mons remaining in SV OU much less problematic than mons that have been banned in the past.

On one hand you are right. This definitely feels like the meta with the least complaints from the player base in perhaps the entirety of gen 9. On the other hand, I have seen some really vocal complaints about Wogerpon over the last few weeks. It is definitely a bit of a toss-up when this survey will happen but for once I think it will be later rather than sooner.

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

Yeah, I'm Tapu Bulu is huffing big copium in saying that the pro-ban side is abrasive when it was mostly CTC on the anti-ban side who was getting banned for toxicity.

He also never names good counterplay to said mons he believes aren't broken, merely saying that there is, expecting people to take his word at face value.

Nothing that has already been banned this generation makes sense for a retest as you say, and Solgaleo, which likely wouldn't even be among the Top 3 best mons in SV OU if it were dropped, is probably the mon most deserving of a test.

To end this talk about Ubers, I was not surprised to see Tornadus-Therian usage rise in August compared to July. It's a very good progress maker, and I'm glad people have caught on to how good it is. I expect it and Rillaboom to rise to OU next month. Heatran is a 50/50, but I'm guessing it won't rise.

...I will not give any names but the ban arguments from certain users on Kyurem and Gliscor, as well as Gouging Fire and previous DLC1 and Home suspects, were just as abrasive and filled with disinformation, fearmongering, bad logic, opinions argued as the holy truth, and ad hominem attacks. I've been told talking about banned mons is not allowed here, but I'd be happy to argue why they aren't broken, particularly Volcarona. Personally i'm kinda indifferent on Gouging and Moon though I'd prefer to see them unbanned, but I'm confident the Volcarona thing was orchestrated. So if you're interested, you can DM me and I would present to you the reasons why Volc ought to be retested and its positive qualities. I agree that Solgaleo itself also deserves a retest.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

this post highlights a possible ideological difference between ban and DNB voters. The ban side often says stuff like "when will you realize x is broken"... the DNB side aims to preserve the status quo since unban tests are so rare on the forums especially in OU

Once a pokemon is banned, it is gone forever, with rare exceptions. The ban side needs to understand this before going forward.

well what is the framework people use to determine what is banned and what isn't? That can determine their ideologies in a way right
I know there are mons that I feel are horrendous for building (the entire S tier) and ones that i think could come down from uber

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

well what is the framework people use to determine what is banned and what isn't? That can determine their ideologies in a way right
I know there are mons that I feel are horrendous for building (the entire S tier) and ones that i think could come down from uber

Yo Omari

From my perspective its usually mons that have the ability to boost their stats (particularly speed) + use defensive tera + possibly Tera Blast e.g Dragonite. Which is already becoming a hot topic just like former suspectees Volcarona and GFire. This is the most common framework. In low tiers Oricorio-F (voted DNB) and now Bellossom are hot topics, which use a similar pattern.

Everyone has their own ideology on what to ban and what not, but for the ones mentioned above i feel the pro-ban sentiment is much more vocal for reasons i would not necessarily consider justified.