Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

[pikachu<3]

"These items all work to reduce your definite counterplay into a luck based sequence, which you have 0 control over, making these items uncompetitive. They are obviously different from chance based abilities/moves such as serene grace because you can prepare for those abilities/pokemon. This is contrast to items such as bright powder which disregard any building/playing skill. Most of these items don't show up very often, which can lead to people wondering why action is being taken, but on the flip side, it doesn't hurt to get rid of items that are uncompetitive when they do show up."
- the ban thread from ss

However

However on the flip side there is something I want to talk about these items as well, and its how widespread Knock Off is everywhere; almost every team has access to knock off and if the item is knocked off then the pokemon whose been knocked off has lost an immense part of its moveset and then could become useless.

Can we stop with the "luck=bad" thing? If we're banning things for being luck based we should have axed Dire Claw, Flame Body, Static, and co a long time ago. These abilities have had much more metagame impact and decide matches much more often than quick claw of brightpowder ever had or will. Overall "no counterplay but luck" is a shitty argument and I have no idea why people continue to spout such nonsense. I too enjoy when my one sneasler answer gets randomly put to sleep and I lose, or when my one breaker (band meow on grass, for example) gets burnt and i get 6-0ed when i no longer have a way to break a flying core, or when my one scarfer gets para'd by static and I have no way to revenge kill a threat.

If a good player wants you to play with RNG dice rolls you are going to play with RNG dice rolls. That doesn't mean luck=bad, it's just the game we play.

I completely agree with unbanning Focus Band, Quick Claw, and Brightpowder.

 

[PandaDoux]

Can we stop with the "luck=bad" thing? If we're banning things for being luck based we should have axed Dire Claw, Flame Body, Static, and co a long time ago. These abilities have had much more metagame impact and decide matches much more often than quick claw of brightpowder ever had or will. Overall "no counterplay but luck" is a shitty argument and I have no idea why people continue to spout such nonsense. I too enjoy when my one sneasler answer gets randomly put to sleep and I lose, or when my one breaker (band meow on grass, for example) gets burnt and i get 6-0ed when i no longer have a way to break a flying core, or when my one scarfer gets para'd by static and I have no way to revenge kill a threat.

If a good player wants you to play with RNG dice rolls you are going to play with RNG dice rolls. That doesn't mean luck=bad, it's just the game we play.

I completely agree with unbanning Focus Band, Quick Claw, and Brightpowder.

This is not about luck, this is about these items's effects. Absolutely everything is luck-based in this game, but not everything gives you a +1 priority or a chance to avoid any move, which is why these items are getting banned from pretty much everywhere, they're uncompetitive, which is a bad thing. Static & Flame Body are luck-based due to their effect of having 30% to be activated, however their effects are competitive. Dire Claw is arguably uncompetitive due to its Sleep effect and the fact that it's a 50% to activate, but this is unique to Sneasler, so Dire Claw would not be banned, Sneasler would. The issue with the items mentioned in this post and the post you're responding to is that any Pokemon can hold them, thus allowing a lot of Pokemons to run uncompetitive strategies.

I don't think it is worth unbanning any aforementioned items, the tier would only be harmed by uncompetitive and luck-based strategies, they don't provide any good to the tier imo

 

[Jahkem]

Hello everyone. Here are the results of the community type VR.

Number of respondents: 19
Number qualified: 16

Qualified

Ranking

Flying    1.93
Dragon    2.13
Steel    2.73
Water    5.07
Fighting    5.53
Ground    5.73
Dark    6.33
Fairy    8.13
Ghost    8.87
Fire    10.87
Poison    11.07
Normal    11.27
Bug    12.40
Psychic    13.93
Ice    15.47
Grass    15.93
Rock    16.40
Electric    17.20

View attachment 733547

Overall

Ranking

Dragon    1.89
Steel    2.50
Flying    2.67
Water    4.89
Fighting    5.61
Ground    5.89
Dark    6.00
Fairy    7.50
Ghost    8.11
Fire    10.11
Poison    10.11
Normal    10.56
Bug    11.83
Psychic    13.00
Grass    14.61
Ice    14.89
Rock    15.17
Electric    16.17

View attachment 733548

It’s time for an update to this Type VR. The reason this should be revisited is due to the recent survey results stating that the metagame is considered balanced. Unless there’s some major shift that happens within the metagame, this is the SV we are playing from here on out. Often times I see people asking, “What are the best types?” and this very post by Ethereal Sword is linked to this day as a good consensus of how the community ranks each type across the entire metagame, ladder and tournament play.

While the Community Type VR isn’t official, I believe this updated VR should be well put together until the official one is done after Gen 9 ends just so we can use it as a helpful resource to newer/returning players.

 

[Ethereal Sword]

Here's the form for the updated community type VR: https://forms.gle/sB1bgCFcsQLEYvni6

Everybody is encouraged to fill it out. Submissions close in 2 weeks.

 

[Pengairxan]

Well if ESword is going to open the flood gates, I guess I may as well post my own personal typing rankings. Maybe we'll get a decent discussion out of this.

Type reasoning, hopefully brief

S:

As the only type that doesn't really have to play the hazard metagame with strong versatility in team options, Flying is still the best type in the tier in my eyes. While it had a mediocre MPL I think that came down to a lot of people sticking to comfort builds (we saw a lot of Glisc + Corv + Torn-T with some combo of DNite, Lando-I, Molt and Cuno while everything else fail to crack double digits) and not really trying to do much interesting with the type overall, instead being compliant. Once people start doing cool things with this type again, people will realize its the best again.

There is a reason this type had the best MPL overall, its sheer power without any majorly glaring weakness outside of a poor MU into hazard stack (which it can generally handle through just putting on so much offensive pressure since even its defensive mons have base 100+ in their offenses) keeps it high for me (I do jump a bit between this and flying being No.1 though)

With this type getting further optimized again, it is just a great offensive type without many flaws. Especially as Fairy and Fighting are not proving to be perfect answers into them while in response, Dark can just put on near uncontested offensive pressure with really strong hazard support in Ting-Lu which also gives some defensive stability. Like Dragon it does lack hazard removal and unlike Dragon Sableye and Mandibuzz (the main defensive mons) aren't offensive super stars, but its got too much gas not to put this high.

A:

I think Steel has a similar issue to Flying with a lot of people sticking to the same 5 core + filler mon with minimal experimentation, but it being the best type in the tier to hazard stack with thanks to Ghold is valuable. Also resisting like everything as well with a good MU into most types is solid.

Ground is Ground, I think this type is just too consistently solid of just being able to click buttons and get away with it. Yes its got some problem MUs, but physical attackers clicking STAB Earthquake will never be bad in my opinion unless the metagame becomes so Grass, Bug, and Flying focused. But that won't ever happen.

Similar to most types, bad hazard game, but unlike most types it is forced to deal with said hazards as a problem which does hurt it. Still, its got strong versaility, a buffet of viable playstyles, and just so many good all around mons, its still solid.

Same thing as ground, STAB Close Combat is too good. Unlike Ground this is a type that does have to worry about a few bad MUs that are incredibly rough, but having those good matchups into most of the top 5 (flying is a bit iffy but still plenty playable) is what keeps this type in competition for me.

These types are kind of just the same to me. Both just want to click their strong special attacks with like one insane physical attacker to push them further. Why I put Ghost as B and Fairy as A is due to how much stronger Fairy's STAB is along with Klefki granting a nice boon. Not having to worry the world's worst mirror and having a good Dark MU and better Dragon are also nice boons.

B (proper now)

read above.

Sun offense is dumb. I do think Sun enabling 7 turns for so many breakers as a whole is stupid and has so much breaking potential mostly kept in check by Dragon having an easy time using proto to throw it right back in Fire's face and being a constant presences along with Ground and Water always keeping fire on its toes.

I'm a believer in Bug, always have been. This type just gets to do whatever it wants a lot of the time because of how good its sticky web offense can be. Of course it can struggle into stuff, notably Fire's recent rise, along with Steel still remaining a consistent defensive hold prevent it from pushing too far. But Bug is my pick for most underrated type.

C: From this point onwards I think the types are very much not consistently good and a bit more of a matchup fish. That being said they have strong enough tools that into most matchups they can reasonably work.

Bias on main, I still think Poison has a place. It can beat nearly every type outside of Ground, Flying, and Fire reliably (and Fire I'm not convinced is a lose if you MU fish it correctly) but really has to choose its matchups in the builder first and foremost and nothing really feels like it covers enough leaving major blind spots. Still consistently strong Fairy, Fighting, and Ghost (thanks AMuk) with generally a solid Water and bug makes this the best of the fishing types.

:Blank-Plate: First off, I did not know until doing this that normal got a plate this gen. (Still needs to be implemented, but it exists) Secondly, normal has some weird MUs, like its got a generally great stall matchup, has strong tools to break most types since Ursaluna hits so hard making it rough to switch into and the Ghost immunity really pisses of, well Ghost, as it prevents Hex Spectrier and Ghold from going super nutty but in the same vein doesn't enjoy seeing Fighting or Steel at all.

This one (and psychic) might be questionable, but strong Dragon, Flying, and Ground does it for me. Yeah its got some disasters in Steel, Bug, and Fire but when it works, oh god it works.

It has A strong fighting matchup and can do some decent work into Flying and Water. Maybe this type needs more cooking as I know Neko is cooking something (because no one else wants to build Psychic) but I don't think its completely booty, unlike the last three.

D: Don't, I don't think any of these types should be used unless you want to CTeam and even then, they're bad.

The only type here that can fish correctly. Its ability to actually beat Fire and possibly put pressure onto Flying (but I've seen so many good flying teams consistently handle it) makes it the best of the worse. Still kind of just collapses to most types those. Doesn't even have a bug MU worth trying to salvage.

I think its got a Steel MU, probably claps Water real bad and might have a flying? Still Dragon and Ground stop this from being anything too good and it lacks any sort of good response to special spam which can allow Ghost and Fairy to easily blow it over.

Meet potential type because there is no good reason why people keep loading it, thinking it might get anything done, when the only accomplishment its gotten recently is winning against itself in MFPL. That is it. It got loaded thrice in MPL last year to no results, once this year to no results. It will happen against next year when people try to fish and fail with it as per usual.

If you enjoyed, sick, hopefully you post yours and we can have a good discussion on why Grass is only bottom 2 instead of bottom 1 or something.

 

[RoyalReloaded]

i typed 2 1/2 explanations for why the types are where they are and i didnt wanna do it anymore so i wont

s1 op
s2 almost op
a very solid
b good
c not great
f having fun is more important anyway

 

[TheKart017]

I lost 100 points of elo so I had to climb back up, but here is my ranking.

Explanation for rankings

S+(I think these are the best types):
Dark: The best type. You can see it with MWP and MPL results. The whole thing with dark is that with enough prep, you can face any type. With small tweaks, you can have a positive MU against any type. The only pokemon that is rough for any dark team without making severe compromises is Lokix. The type's flexibility is what makes it very hard to prep for, very small changes to moves and ev spreads are enough to flip any MU, like band thunder punch meow with scarf gren.

Steel: Steel seems to have the perfect 6 pokemon. In fact, I think it's a crime that in MWP/MPL, people more often used things like bisharp and scizor over hoodra when Hoodra does so much, esp with that huge movepool. However, if you delve into the specifics, you will see cracks starting to form. Choosing the same 6(maybe swapping corv and skarm) is very predictable and will tend to get you c-teamed. Previously, pokemon like lando-I, hearthflame, and okidogi seemed to be lights out for steel, but then steel found stupid ways to weasel itself around these checks. Like scarf tran made hearthflame lesser of a lesser problem and actually flipped the fire MU on its head. Right now, in order to beat steel, you often have to use very specific sets. For example, hoodra on dragon has started to run eq for opposing hoodra and gholdengo. The rise of mixed Hoopa-U and gallade is largely due to this type. Idk why, but somehow steel can adapt.

S(These types are almost as good as S+ tier but have some minor problem):
Flying: Your strength mainly stems from the fact that you ignore eq and the hazard game. The only hazards that works is rocks and most things you have are not weak to rocks or run boots(or ur name is av torn). The main issue is that most team building considers flying a bit too much, I have seen dragon run all 3 of latios, kyurem, and raging bolt. The other problem is that flying has a huge ice weakness despite having 2 good steel types. However, it's still #3 because you have to get through the steels first.

Dragon: Dragon sort of has the same issue with steel where arch + hoodra patches so many problems, but you are sort of forced into the same 6, but with a bit more flexibility. However, I have seen a lot more nite and garchomp, meaning dragon can adapt but for every problem you solve, another one pops up.

Water: I may be biased, but I think water stall is really strong. The reason is that most top types lack good grass attackers. Dark with Meow is the only one I can think of on the top of my head. Having gastrodon with sticky hold to absorb knock off is really annoying. However, I do believe with good plays, you can break through so it's mostly a skill issue on my part.

A(Great but not in contention for top types):
Ground: Probably one of the most braindead types. With Excadrill under gravity and sand, basically nothing switches in. However, this one trick is one of its only strengths, and people have started to adapt to it. This doesn't make it not good. It's just that people are much more prepared for it. For example, with proper play, this MU is currently almost even with steel, even if you are supposed to win.

Fairy: Fairy's main strength is allowing their strong breakers to shine, esp with klefki support. The issue is that most types have really good steels. If you encounter something like scizor, it's close to lights out. Yes you have val, but often it's not enough. However, you have a good MU into dark and dragon(not as good). I think the rise of primarina patches a lot of problem.

Fighting: I think gallade is a hidden gem, which made fighting the powerhouse it is. Suddenly, dealing with things like archaludon, and with shadow sneak, things like flutter mane a lot easier(although still not easy). The issue is that outside tusk and hands, you are on the frail side and are forced into playing a very offensive game.

B(Good but has notable flaws):
Normal: With Kitea constantly stressing how normal is top 5, I decided to try it out. It was not as bad as we thought. H-zoro mind games aren't too much of a problem, but if you are skilled, it forces a lot of 50/50. You have surprisingly decent hazard removal with braviary and pagos. pagos' movepool can also help you beat a lot of things and luna's sheer strength is often enough to leave a lot of holes. If someone tries to set up, you have the get out of jail free card that is ditto. The issue is that you are also sort of forced into the same 6 and the pokemon you have are not as strong as those in steel and dragon hence the much lower placement.

Ghost: Your threat realies mainly on ghost offense(ergo shadow ball) with ceru being one of the few actually running physical sets. However, with dark's prevalence and many types having really good dark types(looking at you, stupid deer), it's very difficult, the only reason dark vs ghost is playable is because mane exists.

Poison: Solid defensive type, but often feels very passive. Most types usually have a really annoying answer, steels in general are a pain to play against even if you have things like dogi/sneasler and moth. Gliscor is just hell too.

Fire: Fire is good for one thing, mashing fire moves under sun and breaking types out of sheer strength. However, with how strong dragon is, it's very hard for fire to survive. Fire was supposed to have an easy MU against steel, but with the rise of scarf tran, the mu is much closer to even right now.

C(When flaws too major to completely solve):
Bug: You are good into fairy and dark, that's your strength. However, against things like flying and steel, it's very rough. The main issue is that you are the bug type. The types you are supposed to be effective against(outside dark): grass and psychic, are both low tier types. Even steel hits super effectively(outside fairy): ice and rock, are low tier types. So your strengths are not that useful outside 2 specific matchups. This means you have to directly brawl with most types. Kleavor does make fire pretty easy, but against the other top types, the shared bug type really hurts. Most types have great steel and flying types, or a really bulky water type that makes life very hard. This is the type with probably the most polarizing strengths and weaknesses, but the weaknesses outweigh the strengths a bit too much.

Psychic: With gallade and hoopa-U, I have defo come to appreciate what psychic does. The issue is that without lele, there are a lot of types you just can't solve, namely: dragon and dark.

Ice: You have a decent MUs against the top types, but even so, flying and dragon have a lot of good checks(like hoodra and arch on dragon). Still, outside fighting and steel, your MU against the other top types are almost even. You have a lot of chances with the snow buffing everyone defense. However, ice is still ice and has too many weaknesses.

D(Only use to challenge yourself):
Grass: I may be biased since I play this type a lot, but I believe grass to be the least bad of these types. The main issue is that you have to pick between hearthflame and cornerstone. This means you either have a better overall MU, notably against steel but be weaker against flying, or you have a good flying MU, at the cost of your overall MUs being worse and almost completely losing vs steel. However, grass suffers from similar problems as bug, grass as a type is just bad, and without things like ferrothorn and/or mega ven, there are a lot of times where you are forced into sacking because you just cannot switch in.

Electric: You are missing koko, end of story. With hands and shocks, your steel MU is decent. The flying MU also nice, despite how annoying gliscor or lando-I are. Similar story for water. With dragon and ground being this strong, it's very hard to actually rise the ranks.

Rock: I think the worst type in SS is also the worst type in SV. Unlike SS, you no longer have the option to switch into water and grass moves with cradily. This means this gen, you are truly forced into playing pure offense. The issue is that you have no defensive utility. I genuinely believe the only type you have a positive MU against is fire and maybe ice.

 

[Jahkem]

I’ll just share the updated Type VR I sent my best friend. When I first made it, it was to help him learn the meta. I gave him a Gouging Fire team at the time and he climbed to top 10 while gaining knowledge along the way. I had all the standard teams that was ran back then and updated them last week and moved some types around. These are ranked in order.

Please feel free to correct me on the most commonly ran teams on each type. I shared what I saw being ran the most in my games on ladder, last MPL with test games and replays, and discussions with others. This is a community project that’s really fun to do together.

S Rank​

Dragon: https://pokepast.es/75d23e8904463c51

Flying: https://pokepast.es/074f6c0476c56885

Steel: https://pokepast.es/a38f68e811ba3b07

Dark: https://pokepast.es/6fb13ef6837199ef

A Rank​

Ground: https://pokepast.es/87ba9a5b97099d7c

Fighting: https://pokepast.es/f5be9374d0592c88

Fairy: https://pokepast.es/a2b026bc9de943b8

Water: https://pokepast.es/f7ce05b6cf1a9939

Fire: https://pokepast.es/f5f89caa70b1ca2e

B Rank​

Ghost: https://pokepast.es/bc6a3aa3b507d282

Normal: https://pokepast.es/30d2a9a7b54514b5

Poison: https://pokepast.es/194c6a080ef81826

Psychic: https://pokepast.es/f95157f4763a1586

C Rank​

Ice: https://pokepast.es/96801daf6510aa30

Grass: https://pokepast.es/963ee4ed248cec5d

D Rank​

Bug: https://pokepast.es/3b66efb42bccc391

F Rank​

Electric: https://pokepast.es/053feb390438636f

Rock: https://pokepast.es/923a241d4c98bdf0

 

[BloodedEdge]

I've played monotype for so long and even in the times i was pretty low on ladder by courtesy of me constantly changing types and trying other ones out to see how well i do with them, i felt like i should be a part of this and show my tiering for each respective type not just because i used them and i'm going by my experience, but by what i've also seen on ladder.

Explanation

S Tier: These types are what i believe to be the strongest and quite found everywhere on ladder, very good competitively and can be quite easy to learn for any new player let alone try out with when they start Monotype, Now i could be wrong considering i have never tried out any major tournament. but the reason as to why i believe Dragon is not an S tier type and is below Dark will be explained below:

A Tier: These types are what i believe to be strong types but at a lesser usage than the S tier types. i still hold the same opinion on the premise that they are basically types that can be flexible, easy to learn, and get you pretty far if you use them. but even then there are certain criterias that disallow them to be an S tier type since even with flexibility, they've got multiple limitations like being forced to use the same smogon set or the same choices of pokemon (Eg, Dragon needing Latios to break past the Flying MU), and i believe that Dragon is the 4th best type just below dark since dark is starting to appear a lot of times on ladder and with plenty of different team choices, with some unpredictable sets that frankly can either ruin your chances of winning if you're not careful enough, or can be a straightforward win (like how you cannot tell whether the hoopa-unbound is a choice item one or vested.) whereas Dragon started to appear less on ladder and even then. is predictable 80% of the time upon preview.

B tier: These types i frankly consider good but at the same time average. they hold their fair share of defense and offense, but most of the time they pack the same options for teams, and it ultimately just depends on what matchup it is that'll determine whether they win or lose.

C Tier: Quite subpar types that you almost never see on ladder, and when you do, they just have limited options to make progress in a battle depending on your type and what move you decide to make, that is not to say they're hot garbage and should just stay rare to find, but you can only go so far with them that unless you're a literal god. and you're better off using something else if you do not want to stick to a type with barely any good options for competitive use in monotype.

D Tier: Bad types that just win you one or two matchups and thats it, barely any good defense, possibly great offense, but nevertheless just do not appreciate getting hit by basically everything else in the game, and can lose relatively quickly in matches.

I hope my explanation makes sense and if i'm wrong about anything, i'm up for discussion! :D

 

[ImprobableBlob]

i had a thought of instead of doing a simple tier list, to do a full table of matchups. I know that a strict counting of matchups is not the most relevent thing given how the frequency of the types you beat is relevant, so the final column is taking into account the useage stats from last months ladder. I also have no idea what half of the matchups look like (like who even wins electric vs rock?) and so i went off of vibes for those i didn't know, chances are most of these are off by a bit, but oh well. some of the results are a bit wierd (didn't expect fairy so high) but it mostly aligns with what i expected (flying gains a good amount from ice and electric being rare) and i like the look of these things so here it is.

Matchup table

ranking

with useage

 

[TheWyvernKing]

i had a thought of instead of doing a simple tier list, to do a full table of matchups. I know that a strict counting of matchups is not the most relevent thing given how the frequency of the types you beat is relevant, so the final column is taking into account the useage stats from last months ladder. I also have no idea what half of the matchups look like (like who even wins electric vs rock?) and so i went off of vibes for those i didn't know, chances are most of these are off by a bit, but oh well. some of the results are a bit wierd (didn't expect fairy so high) but it mostly aligns with what i expected (flying gains a good amount from ice and electric being rare) and i like the look of these things so here it is.

Matchup table

View attachment 767107

ranking

View attachment 767112

with useage

View attachment 767114

Just to clarify, what did you use to dictate winrate? Some of it looks pretty odd on the matchup table so I kinda figured it had to just be *vibes*. That being said, I do know that once upon a time there used to be an official one of these matchup tables back in Gen 6 that used ladder data. I have my disagreements with the table you posted but I do like the idea of presenting type matchups in a way like this.

 

[ImprobableBlob]

Just to clarify, what did you use to dictate winrate? Some of it looks pretty odd on the matchup table so I kinda figured it had to just be *vibes*. That being said, I do know that once upon a time there used to be an official one of these matchup tables back in Gen 6 that used ladder data. I have my disagreements with the table you posted but I do like the idea of presenting type matchups in a way like this.

yeah it was vibes, especially when it came to types i don't play. I would be more surprised if some of the matchups weren't off tbh

 

[TheKart017]

Just to clarify, what did you use to dictate winrate? Some of it looks pretty odd on the matchup table so I kinda figured it had to just be *vibes*. That being said, I do know that once upon a time there used to be an official one of these matchup tables back in Gen 6 that used ladder data. I have my disagreements with the table you posted but I do like the idea of presenting type matchups in a way like this.

I proposed to the showdown dev team to code one into the smogon/stats(as in I code), however, the idea was rejected. I can try asking them again, so that we have a better idea of what's going on.

 

[Jahkem]

Would absolutely love to see the matchup tables return. They used to be updated here during ORAS by scpinion but the table is long gone. Then during SS, Argus2Spooky had a bot record the type win rates of all the ladder games for every bracket of the ladder at one point. It was always a valuable resource and a great discussion point when it was a thing in ORAS.

I remember some funny things about the matchup tables like people used to think ORAS Steel vs Ice was the most lopsided matchup but it was actually Dragon vs Fire. Another thing was Ghost only had 2 positive matchups. Those being Bug and Fighting. Fighting because unable to use their stab and good walls in Jellicent and Gourgeist at the time. Bug because they couldn’t remove Stealth Rock once Golurk set them. During SS, with Argus’ bot, we learned that Bug was the most used type overall on ladder. Good times.

We need the matchup table to make a full return.

 

[Pengairxan]

i had a thought of instead of doing a simple tier list, to do a full table of matchups. I know that a strict counting of matchups is not the most relevent thing given how the frequency of the types you beat is relevant, so the final column is taking into account the useage stats from last months ladder. I also have no idea what half of the matchups look like (like who even wins electric vs rock?) and so i went off of vibes for those i didn't know, chances are most of these are off by a bit, but oh well. some of the results are a bit wierd (didn't expect fairy so high) but it mostly aligns with what i expected (flying gains a good amount from ice and electric being rare) and i like the look of these things so here it is.

Matchup table

View attachment 767107

ranking

View attachment 767112

with useage

View attachment 767114

This would 100% need more work from people who actually play X types. Just going through the list. Poison isn't exactly that fond of seeing Electric (Especially if its a Clodsire less team as bolt and Zapdos are very rough) but we do enjoy Ghost and Water (well depends on the water and your comp, but Moong Pex kind of is just super hard for water to break.), flying isn't as doomed as Ground is (I've been able to push through with more offensive Pecharunt/Glowking spreads). Psychic, Dragon, and Steel aren't as doomed as you think they are but are a lot more reliant on team comp if anything (notably Drag wants like Glowking Sneasler, Steel wants Dogi and Gengar, and Psychic honestly just wants some whack techs) but most poisons at least have a functional matchup into two of these three without building super hard for them.
If you wanted my personal biased opinion for Poison.
Winning (10~7): Grass, Fairy, Fighting, Ghost, Water, Ice, Rock,
Evenish (6~4): Electric, Bug, Dark, normal, Dragon, Steel,
Losing: (3~1): Psychic, Fire, Flying, Ground

Granted this would 100% need top players who are fully willing to grind out games cause mine is still a bit of gut feeling and my own personal experience.

 

[TheKart017]

Guys I've got good news, I'll try to make a MU chart script to be part of smogon stats. I'll try to get it done asap but it will take a bit since I'm not fully familiar with the showdown code. I'll try to get it done before end of month.

 

[ImprobableBlob]

This would 100% need more work from people who actually play X types. Just going through the list. Poison isn't exactly that fond of seeing Electric (Especially if its a Clodsire less team as bolt and Zapdos are very rough) but we do enjoy Ghost and Water (well depends on the water and your comp, but Moong Pex kind of is just super hard for water to break.), flying isn't as doomed as Ground is (I've been able to push through with more offensive Pecharunt/Glowking spreads). Psychic, Dragon, and Steel aren't as doomed as you think they are but are a lot more reliant on team comp if anything (notably Drag wants like Glowking Sneasler, Steel wants Dogi and Gengar, and Psychic honestly just wants some whack techs) but most poisons at least have a functional matchup into two of these three without building super hard for them.
If you wanted my personal biased opinion for Poison.
Winning (10~7): Grass, Fairy, Fighting, Ghost, Water, Ice, Rock,
Evenish (6~4): Electric, Bug, Dark, normal, Dragon, Steel,
Losing: (3~1): Psychic, Fire, Flying, Ground

Granted this would 100% need top players who are fully willing to grind out games cause mine is still a bit of gut feeling and my own personal experience.

Hopefully getting actual stats will be better than the guesses i made (and anyone else's for that matter, we all are biased towards certain types), as i said earilier my table was just based on vibes for the most part, though on the steel vs poison part i did take into account okidogi making things more difficult which was why it didn't get rated lower. I tend to find the classic poison team you see on ladder (which does not run dogi) to be a very easy matchup for steel (just stack hazards and pivot around while they can't kill anything) and am always relieved when i run into one, though this might just be ladder players not knowing what they are doing.

 

[Ethereal Sword]

Hello everyone. Here are the results of the second edition of the Community Type VR, based off of 25 respondents. Thanks to all who responded!
Tiers were selected by k-means clustering.

Overall Rankings

Average Rankings

Dragon    1.76
Flying    2.80
Steel    3.32
Dark    3.36
Water    5.60
Ground    6.52
Fighting    6.84
Fire    8.84
Fairy    8.96
Ghost    9.12
Normal    11.32
Poison    11.64
Bug    12.04
Psychic    13.96
Ice    15.68
Grass    15.80
Rock    16.32
Electric    17.12

Qualified Rankings

Average Rankings

Dragon    1.95
Flying    2.80
Dark    3.05
Steel    3.20
Water    5.65
Fighting    6.40
Ground    6.80
Ghost    9.05
Fairy    9.10
Fire    9.10
Normal    11.40
Poison    11.60
Bug    11.65
Psychic    14.00
Ice    15.70
Grass    15.75
Rock    16.30
Electric    17.50

 

[insertkoin]

Hello everyone. Here are the results of the second edition of the Community Type VR, based off of 25 respondents. Thanks to all who responded!
Tiers were selected by k-means clustering.

Overall Rankings
View attachment 769005

Average Rankings

Dragon    1.76
Flying    2.80
Steel    3.32
Dark    3.36
Water    5.60
Ground    6.52
Fighting    6.84
Fire    8.84
Fairy    8.96
Ghost    9.12
Normal    11.32
Poison    11.64
Bug    12.04
Psychic    13.96
Ice    15.68
Grass    15.80
Rock    16.32
Electric    17.12

Qualified Rankings
View attachment 769004

Average Rankings

Dragon    1.95
Flying    2.80
Dark    3.05
Steel    3.20
Water    5.65
Fighting    6.40
Ground    6.80
Ghost    9.05
Fairy    9.10
Fire    9.10
Normal    11.40
Poison    11.60
Bug    11.65
Psychic    14.00
Ice    15.70
Grass    15.75
Rock    16.30
Electric    17.50

I completely agree with the results, the top four types have plenty tools to beat the rest of the types, flying has good answers for everything, dragon is plain solid (archa +hisuian goodra is imo the best defensive core of the format, with pult you have to guess correct or it will kill/cripple atleast one mon), and although steel runs the same 5 mons plus an extra of scizor, bisharp, hisuian goodra... its has the same thing that makes dark good, unpredictability: scarf heatran, scarf archa, gholdengo can run multiple sets, you can even play a bit with hgoodra... and regarding the later: specs or scarf gren, band or scarf meowscarada, hsamurott... they force you into a guessing game in which if you make a mistake you lose a pokemon.

The only thing I wanted to add, is that maybe water also deserves S rank, it works with different playstyles, and I think that with the proper team/variant can beat everything except dragon running Raging Bolt.

 

[Wincon]

I completely agree with the results, the top four types have plenty tools to beat the rest of the types, flying has good answers for everything, dragon is plain solid (archa +hisuian goodra is imo the best defensive core of the format, with pult you have to guess correct or it will kill/cripple atleast one mon), and although steel runs the same 5 mons plus an extra of scizor, bisharp, hisuian goodra... its has the same thing that makes dark good, unpredictability: scarf heatran, scarf archa, gholdengo can run multiple sets, you can even play a bit with hgoodra... and regarding the later: specs or scarf gren, band or scarf meowscarada, hsamurott... they force you into a guessing game in which if you make a mistake you lose a pokemon.

The only thing I wanted to add, is that maybe water also deserves S rank, it works with different playstyles, and I think that with the proper team/variant can beat everything except dragon running Raging Bolt.

Water is very solid, but it can’t contend with the big four in S Tier. Not only that, it loses consistently/even matchup to 3 of the 4 S Tier types and pretty commonly loses even the ground mu, which makes it High A tier imo which is exactly where it’s at in the ranking.

 

[Jahkem]

Let’s Talk About Iron Bundle​

Iron Bundle was a mon that, at its time in the tier, was so powerful and punched holes in many types with the unresisted STAB in Hydro Pump and Freeze Dry along with access to Flip Turn as well. Iron Bundle also has a magnificent Speed stat of 136 to outpace many other fast threats in the tier. Iron Bundle was originally banned for its perfect coverage and its high base 114 Defense which made revenge killing Iron Bundle different with common priority moves like Sucker Punch or Extremespeed. Back then, the only reliable switch ins to Iron Bundle in the metagame were , , , and Assault Vest . Iron Bundle isn't without any downsides having nonexistent coverage moves and a reliance on Choice Specs to really break through teams. Also, due to its typing, it was prone to Stealth Rock weakness as hazard spam was at an all time high with hazard removal being so scarce and the existence of as well making Iron Bundle having to forego Choice Specs for Heavy Duty Boots to sacrifice firepower for more of a offensive utility role. On top of that, Iron Bundle had a tough time getting in reliably without having to depend on pivoting from its teammates. With so few reliable ways to check Iron Bundle defensively, it was definitively quickbanned from the tier on December 10th, 2022.

A lot has changed since Iron Bundle was in the tier. Pokemon Home, the Teal Mask DLC, and the Indigo Disk DLC all released far after Iron Bundle's departure. And with those releases came from noteworthy defensive and offensive checks that can keep Iron Bundle within bounds of the current metagame's balance. I'll be talking about Iron Bundle's influence on Water teams mainly.

Noteworthy Defensive Checks for Choice Specs

To go from 4 viable defensive checks to 12 is quite a massive leap and they are across a good amount of types as well. The three best checks on this list being Articuno, Empoleon, and Goodra-Hisui. Articuno can quickly drain Hydro Pump and Ice Beam PP and Goodra and Empoleon can threaten to Knock Off Specs or whichever item Iron Bundle is holding. Choice Specs wouldn't be the only set that Iron Bundle can run but it's definitely the most dangerous of the sets that can be ran. If Iron Bundle is not running Choice Specs, then this list gets a lot longer.

Noteworthy Offensive Checks for Choice Specs

A-Z

(Choice Scarf)
(Swift Swim)
(Choice Scarf)
(Choice Specs/Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf/AV)
(Unburden/Choice Scarf)
(Choice Scarf)

Offensive checks/counterplay comes in different forms, mainly Choice Scarf; but that's to be expected when dealing with a mon with 136 Speed. I listed the speed control mons that are already commonly ran in the meta currently.

Honorable Mentions

I'm only mentioning these two for the obvious reasons. Klefki setting Screens helps Fairy withstand whatever Iron Bundle decides to throw out along with Thunder Wave and Gliscor with Protect helps Flying see which move is being clicked to switch accordingly.

Teammates
Iron Bundle has great support from many teammate with Flip Turn such as Empoleon, Swampert, Samurott-Hisui, etc. and other protecting Iron Bundle from different threats. However, let's speak about Iron Bundle's best teammate: . By far the best supporting cast member for Iron Bundle by being a slow pivoting Wish passer with Regenerator. Alomomola allows safe switches to Iron Bundle as well as a semi-reliable recovery option with the Wish + slow Flip Turn. Similar to how Manaphy is supported by Alomomola. Another interested teammate is Slowking using Chilly Reception to slow pivot to Iron Bundle while also utilizing the Snow Defense buff on Ice typing. There's more interesting combos that blend well with Iron Bundle that makes it a nice fit on Water and Ice teams.

Other Sets
Iron Bundle wouldn't exclusively run Choice Specs, there's other viable sets that provide utility for the rest of its teammates. The first alternative would be Choice Scarf. Being able to utilize Iron Bundle's speed even further could provide the edge against against some faster threats like Dragapult or other Choice Scarf users like Iron Valiant or Landorus. Heavy Duty Boots sets have some variety in running Taunt, Encore, or Substitute along with its pivot move Flip Turn. We don't have another prominent Encore user anymore since Sableye usage has been super low post-Gouging Fire ban. The next most prominent Encore user is Tinkaton and its usage isn't the highest either. There are some niche sets like Sub + Petaya Berry, but that's to be explored if Iron Bundle were to return. Iron Bundle doesn't always have to shooting off damage boosted Hydro Pumps or Ice beams to make itself useful.

Final Thoughts
Iron Bundle was super strong for its time it was in the tier. However, that was during a time when the SV meta was still fresh and everchanging with the preceding suspect tests, quickbans, and Home+DLC releases. The push for suspect tests for bans has finally settled down and we already started to look back and what could potentially be brought back. The first mon to be looked at was Kingambit but was ultimately shutdown. The next candidate I present is Iron Bundle who would fit nicely into the metagame without warping the tier in an immensely negative way.

 

[RoyalReloaded]

I don't think we need iron bundle back. It feels like it would be unbanning something just for the sake of unbanning something. 0 resistances to water move + freeze dry, a pivoting move of its own so it doesn't have to commit to anything too hard if anticipating a switch, wish + pivot support from alomomola, hazard + knock support from samurott, and aurora veil support which the above post failed to mention. im good.

the tier is fine and doesn't need any tiering changes but if something has to be done i would support gliscor, gholdengo, ogerpon h, ursa bm unban and kingambit unban (only if gholdengo gets banned)

 

[zIcarus]

I am strongly for exploring this suspect, would love to have actual data to put our thoughts to rest on this matter! I as of rn believe Bundle could fit fine in the sv meta game but who knows maybe after seeing high level games, other people's thoughts on the idea of this possible reality and where teambuilding will go with it in the metagame!

 

[Ethereal Sword]

Rather than a solution in search of a problem, this is a problem in search of a problem. There is no pressing reason to bring back Iron Bundle; first, Water is already an A-tier type with no explanation given as to why it needs to be improved further; second, it does not help the metagame at large deal with the mons perceived to be the top threats. From the most recent survey, these would be Flutter Mane, Gholdengo, Archaludon, and Gliscor; of these, only Gliscor could arguably be the target for a Bundle unban except (1) neither Water nor Ice have much trouble dealing with Gliscor and (2) you put Gliscor as a possible countermeasure to Bundle in your post.

The metagame would only stand to lose with Bundle in the tier. Water is already the most diverse type featuring the greatest number of viable archetypes from rain to offense to balance to stall, and Iron Bundle would be a direct buff to all of them. At the very least, it's a Greninja upgrade though they could probably be run together anyway. There has been a lot of confidence but no evidence that Bundle wouldn't be heavily oppressive in at least one of these archetypes on release.

 

[Pengairxan]

I guess with an unban of bundle my question is why? What value would bundle be adding to the tier outside of another Unga Bunga damage mon? Realistically it would honestly cause more damage in my opinion than positives it would bring.

Just going through two of the months listed as checks.

This is not a consistent part of Water, sitting at 16th in usage this month (13.39356%) and primarily sees play on bulky offense to stall water teams and not the more common standard balance to rain (which rain saw a major boon this month with Pelipper sitting at 53.70812%, 2nd overall). Empoleon though would be mandatory to prevent Water mirrors from coming down to bundle Freeze Dry wars as it would be the only consistent defensive check to bundle outside of Choice Scarf threats whom a majority of are walled by Toxapex with the exception of Scarf Greninja who has issues breaking through the special walls, espessically if Empoleon usage rises as Scarf Gren does pitful damage to it.

While more common than Empoleon on flying teams (34.44616% which puts it abit over usage on 1/3 of every flying team) would be the only reliable check to Bundle (Specially Defensive Corviknight is not a reliable switch in for the following reason: 252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Bundle Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 171-202 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 44.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, the standard 252 HP/144+SpD set is a clean 2HKO after rocks) which would force flying teams to homogenize lest they get ran over by bundle. And even then Articuno still has to be scared of Bundle as Specs Hydro Pump can 2HKO and if paired with Rain would reliably 2HKO. And similarly, it would likely struggle to dent water if there was to be an increase of Empoleon (outside of a lucky freeze)

Hell, some of these guys aren't even good checks. Hoopa-U for example only checks Specs Bundle if it is AV or Scarf (beam is a clean 2HKO and Freeze-Dry is a clean 2HKO after rocks) and if bundle Flip turns on the hoopa-U switch in, now there is an Ogerpon-W or Scarf Urshifu-R in your face. I would like the new plan on how Dark is running through these guys (or SD Samu-H if it is Psychic)
Hisuian Goodra takes a lot of damage from Specs Ice Beam, and more importantly, doesn't instantly check Bundle like it would with Flutter Mane with Heavy Slam being a roll to 2HKO.
Alolan Muk could come in a Rain boosted hydro pump and take too much damage just from it to reliably check Bundle clicking Freeze Dry later in the game which runs through a lot of Poison's defensive core.
Both Iron Hands and Gallade are already on a type that from my experience, isn't great into more offensive Water teams, this would really on just make things worse them for handling a possible Greninja waiting in the back.

Also as both Royal mentioned, Water has a defensive backbone that is solid. Going through the scarfers listed (and nothing else).

and

are all walled very hard by Toxapex (well Meow isn't, but still is checked) along with

having to click moonblast/superpower to reliably slam Bundle which Pex, does Pex things against. Unburden Sneasler was also listed and that dies to Specs Hydro Pump and is also a roll for Ice beam and even after the balloon gets popped and it managed to live. Its dead to any form of Water priority or just Pex clicking Pjab (even with best case for Sneasler, Pex's PJab is an 81.3% to OHKO a Sneasler left on 46 HP). Urshifu-R also has issues with Primarina.

and

are walled by Pelipper (More than half of water teams this month) and Rotom-W (while rare, having less than 10% usage, it would possibly see a rise in usage to support Bundle with Volt switch entry) along with Scarf Landorus generally being a worse set overall for standard Ground teams (only having 19.740% usage) and Scarf Tusk not being super common (21.283% on Ground), along with Tusk itself only barely eeking past 30% usage at 30.00655% on Ground.

and

are not particularly fond of seeing Swampert outside of EBall Valiant (which never appears) of course Scarf Valiant may be physical, but thats not a worry for Pex/Pelipper usually. Now Scarf Arch does also hit a Draco which is hard but the problem with both Valiant and Arch is that they're not consistently scarf. Scarf Valiant is very rare on Fairy (13.054%) with mixed sets/SD sets proving to be more common and while it sees high usage on Fighting (41.234%) it still isn't particularly common there. Archaludon is also just more common as a bulky leftovers set than Scarf on steel (lefties at 43.650% and Scarf at 40.699%, nice) Also for Heatran, not a scarfer (18.803%)

and

would have issues with Empoleon along with defensive Primarina (either AV or just CM) being somewhat reasonable to checks them.
Of course there are far more scarfers, but these were just the ones listed and they all find different issues with Water's common defensive threats.

In response what are we gain an offensive bully for? Gliscor? Ground? The Water mirror?
If you are in desperate need for a mon capable of doing these things, I would like to introduce to you this rare and underappreciated mon that no one, but myself, has ever used before.

Of course it would do more than that Oger-W, it would check Archaludon and opposing Ogerpon formes (Wellspring is dead to freeze-Dry, and the other two are dead to Specs Ice Beam, yes even hearthflame which is OHKOed after rocks and pump just sends it to hell) but this to me isn't a healthy solution. We should be trying to reduce the fire (please guys, just accept that Arch and Glisc are lame AF), not set another building on fire to make the current burning building look like less of a disaster.