Metagame NP ZU Stage 18: FLOWER - Bellossom Suspect Test

[Tuthur]

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ZUPL put the spotlight on Bellossom, a Pokémon that previously received close to no usage, and since then has risen as a premier late game setup sweeper in the metagame. Its most common set is a bulky Quiver Dance user, using Strength Sap and Giga Drain to maintain itself healthy and get multiple boosts. While it is initally weak, its bulk with the combination of Quiver Dance Special Defense boosts and Strength Sap Attack drops means many Pokémon are totally unable to outdamage its healing.

Bellossom can easily find setup opportunities into common staples of the tier such as Sandslash, Lanturn, and even premier special wall Snorlax. Its Poison-type coverage also allows it to OHKO Whimsicott, the premier anti-setup threat in the metagame. This Poison-type coverage, turning STAB with Tera, allows Bellossom to defeat would be checks. On the one hand, Acid Spray can overpower set-up sweepers that would try to boost alongside Bellossom such as Swords Dance Hisuian Sneasel and Calm Mind Jolteon. On the other hand, Sludge Bomb is immediatly stronger, OHKOing Whimsicott without Tera and being able to 1v1 Haze Articuno thanks to the poison.

However, there is defined counterplay to Bellossom. Oricorio is a near perfect counter, thanks to its Dancer ability, preventing Bellossom boosting past it; even if it needs to be careful around Sludge Bomb. With Psyshock, Farigiraf and Mesprit can be great answers to Bellossom as it has no way of reducing its power and turns weak to Psychic-type after Tera; Farigiraf's Sap Sipper ability also makes it impossible for Bellossom to recover any HP. Bellossom is also extremely slow; common Trick users such as Hisuian Sneasel, Whimsicott, and Rotom-Mow are able to outspeed a boosted Bellossom and turn it completely unusable. Nicher options, such as Malamar and Primeape, thanks to their respective abilities, can take advantage of Acid Spray and Strength Sap stat drop to overpower Bellossom.

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in ZU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played ZU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact me, sleid, or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2920. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 4. The suspect test will go on for about 14 days, lasting until <t:1758513540:F>.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[zause]

I'm writing this post with the initial thought that Bellossom is balanced. Its poor mono-grass typing makes it a tera hog from the get-go and we have plenty of anti-setup mons like Mesprit (Encore or Trick), Sableye, Sneasel-Hisui, Beartic, Victreebel, Charizard, Crocalor, and Mismagius, all of which can switch in perfectly safely to Bellossom. Additionally, Bellossom is weak and slow prior to setting up, which gives the opponent time to react (similar to what makes Spiritomb balanced for example). Additionally, new mons that have positive niche interactions vs Bellossom (and Ori-F) like Primeape, Malamar and Swalot have been popping up and are good are their respective archetypes (Spikes, Court Change Webs and Swalot fits on a bunch of stuff and has some solid niches over Muk especially in the setup department). Court Change Webs aren't a joke btw they were all over the ladder last suspect with success.

However, I also wanted to research how Bellossom went from not seeing any use in any tournaments and being C+ on the ZeroUsed VR straight to being... suspected. Bellossom entered ZUPL as a very niche if not unviable pick. In week one of ZUPL it had two uses by the Pekos, winning both in the worst throw in the whole tour and Fish versus Baitwiz which was a lopsided game on paper yet still was very close as Regirock got extremely unlucky and Baitwiz missed a winpath in which he couldve gone into his Ori and copied the boosts in their tracks. However, in fairness to Bellossom, the Pekos had already won the week and were likely just reusing to conserve other teams. The first win was a mockery and the second win was a bit lucky, but the niche setup sweeper was nonetheless 2-0 after the first week of ZUPL, being tera'd in both its games. After seeing Bellossom go 2-0 in the first week, other teams decided to try a new strategy, Grassy Seed Bellossom. This worked with varying success, as Career Ended brought a fat team with Articuno that walled and overwhelmed Bellossom, which once again tera'd. However, Bellossom would get its first runaway victory of the whole tour in Chaos23333 vs LettuceLeaf, clutching an endgame while dodging full paras. Additionally, the Pekos used Bellossom on a balance once again, this time losing in a tight game where OLK made an excellent play to switch into his SD Zard t15 on the tera and win. So week two wasn't strong for Bellossom, but it did get a good sweep. In its first 5 appearances, Bellossom tera'd every time and swept once, with a 3-2 overall record. I think this is very underwhelming, particularly in SV. It is worth noting I brought Charm Lilligant (and tera'd it too LOL) which is similar. However, week 3 was Bellossom's breakout. It had 7 uses, and 5 wins. yo cho won in a game where it got frozen and did nothing upon unthawing, and it marked the first game in which Bellossom did not tera. THE_CHUNGLER won a game with Bellossom in which it got stonewalled by Tera Poison Lurantis and did not click an attacking move, marking its third fake win and second game without terastilizing. JJ09LIE then won vs Diego in a game where Bellossom put in a solid performance, clicking Giga Drain a few times at the end of the game with no setup to secure the win. Bellossom would have its first mirror match of the tour, not doing much on either side. It then had its second mirror match, and got its second sweep in its first appearance with Acid Spray, finishing an endgame and beating the opposing Bello due to the new tech. Bellossom now had 6 wins out of 8 games, or a 75% winning percentage (in non mirrors), despite being very unimpressive in its games. The Acid Spray set would then get used in w4, sweeping a seriously underprepared team. This was Bellossom's only use in week 4. In week 5, Bellossom would get another 7 uses. It saw a loss vs Trick Room, and a win vs a burned Articuno, which I believe to be the turn that convinced people it was suspect worthy. While this is ludicrous on paper, it makes sense because Haze is a shitty way for dealing with Strength Sap and the burn means that Articuno's lower PP on Roost sticks out like a sore thumb. Bellossom then had its third mirror match, doing nothing on either side, followed by another win in which it didnt do anything more than cheer from the sidelines. It suffered an unlucky loss to the hands of Dead By Daylight. Didn't do much in this game either. I'm not gonna review week 6 (usage stats aren't up), but I think that Bellossom has an unusually high winrate that should drop down over time and is nothing more than a matchup fish tera hog sweeper that can cop a win against a bad team that lacks up anti-setup. Otherwise it tends to not do much and get carried by its teammates. It's 71% clean win rate over 14 non mirrored uses is not reflected by its impact game-to-game. I have yet to face it in ZUPL, and I think that is in part because my teams consistently have good counterplay to it and I generally don't find it hard to fit.

tldr; terahog mu fish that feeds off teams missing one of the like 10 setup deterrents we have and has a boosted winrate and this feels like ori-f suspect all over again

ban Sun in SS

 

[I'm Tapu Bulu]

I will start laddering today and do my best to attain reqs. From a grassroot player's point of view i'm also on the DNB side for now.

Bellossom is a scary Quiver Dance + Strength Sap sweeper, but just like previous suspectees, it loathes getting knocked, although maybe not as much as fellow QD user Oricorio. A lot of the counterplay against Oricorio-F works well against Bellossom, with Assault Vest users (especially Eelektross), Snorlax with Belly Drum, and strong physical moves there to stop a potential QD sweep. Charizard can tech Dragon Tail and thus be an almost surefire Bellossom counter (I've never seen Tera Fairy Bello so unless that's a thing, zard is a great stop). Bellossom is slow, hard to get going, and can be crippled even at +1 because ZU still has options such as both forms of Sneasel, Beartic with hail support, Scarf Rotom/Mesprit which can trick, and so on.

I'll be posting my full thoughts once I get reqs but I'm do not ban for now

 

[Dead by Daylight]

This is probably the second ever suspect I will vote Ban on.

Bellossom is a scary Quiver Dance + Strength Sap sweeper, but just like previous suspectees, it loathes getting knocked, although maybe not as much as fellow QD user Oricorio.

I wouldn't say it "loathes" getting its Boots knocked. Bellossom can switch in easily especially with Tera Poison even if it gets knocked initially. The Oricorio comparison here is understated as well - considering the lack of removal outside of Sandslash and Hitmontop, a knocked Oricorio has essentially no late-game value outside of a sacrifice since it gets half its health cleaved off instantly, while a knocked Bellossom can sweep anyways.

This is also discounting the presence of Bellossom on Grassy Terrain teams with Grassy Seed, where it takes almost nothing from Knock anyways. We saw it be used thrice in ZUPL (where, coincidentally, both games without a hard counter featured it sweeping - Django vs. Beavs and Chaos23333 vs. Lettuce), and I believe it's a decent shout for a Grassy Terrain abuser compared to Oricorio.

A lot of the counterplay against Oricorio-F works well against Bellossom, with Assault Vest users (especially Eelektross), Snorlax with Belly Drum, and strong physical moves there to stop a potential QD sweep. Charizard can tech Dragon Tail and thus be an almost surefire Bellossom counter (I've never seen Tera Fairy Bello so unless that's a thing, zard is a great stop). Bellossom is slow, hard to get going, and can be crippled even at +1 because ZU still has options such as both forms of Sneasel, Beartic with hail support, Scarf Rotom/Mesprit which can trick, and so on.

Its poor mono-grass typing makes it a tera hog from the get-go and we have plenty of anti-setup mons like Mesprit (Encore or Trick), Sableye, Sneasel-Hisui, Beartic, Victreebel, Charizard, Crocalor, and Mismagius, all of which can switch in perfectly safely to Bellossom.

AV users in this tier consist of Eelektross and Muk. Eelektross gets chipped over time and loses eventually to a plain attack, while AV Muk loses 1v1 against Tera Poison Bellossom anyways. Neither of these really work.

BD Lax is a set that I personally have never seen and don't consider to be that great, especially seeing as Lax is your catch-all special check to Jolteon, but perhaps it has merit on HO. Tera Poison Sludge Bomb should 1v1 this, though.

Charizard could tech Dragon Tail or Roar, sure, but then you lose out on chipping checks like Regirock and Lanturn at all with Wisp or Scorching Sands to deal with one mon.

Beartic and Hail as a whole deal with a Grass-type well, sure. Same scenario with Articuno. Sneasel also loses to Tera Poison unless it is Choice Band + Switcheroo, which to be fair it certainly can be. Scarf Mowtom and Mesprit locked into a move already are prime targets for Bellossom to set up past +2, where it outspeeds both and can no longer be Tricked (as both drop with minor chip). Encore Mesprit has more of a chance, but it cannot switch in and Encore Bellossom into QD (meaning it trades a ton of its health to temporarily stop it). Sableye checks it, at least until it gets Giga Drained and forced to endlessly spam Recover. Oricorio is honestly a great switch-in, as it copies the boosts with Dancer.

Its poor mono-grass typing makes it a tera hog from the get-go and we have plenty of anti-setup mons like Mesprit (Encore or Trick), Sableye, Sneasel-Hisui, Beartic, Victreebel, Charizard, Crocalor, and Mismagius, all of which can switch in perfectly safely to Bellossom.

Being a tera hog doesn't matter when it can take games over on the spot when it has said Tera available. Oricorio couldn't do that - its checks largely remained the same when it Tera'd. That's not the case for Bellossom.


None of this really answers the benefit behind banning Bellossom, either - getting uninteractive setup sweepers that mandate specific checks out of the tier is a net positive. I didn't (and still don't) think this applies to Oricorio because its checks are (mostly) able to check it even with Tera, but it certainly does apply to Bellossom. I'd support getting it out of this tier.

 

[plznostep]

I fricking hate Bellossom

Hello everyone. Before we continue, please appreciate my Bellossom drawing. I want the Artist badge on Smogon by the end of the month or this entire site is corrupt. Thank you.

Anyways, I got reqs. I wanted to win them with Grassy Terrain but its not consistent enough on ladder to work considering you fully commit to using Terrain whereas in other cheese styles such as Snow, you use a single core and build around it. So I just used my old Snow team and qualified that way.

So things i've learned from Bellossom; if you get the right matchup, congratulations, you basically win on the spot. From laddering with it using Grassy Seed which i will show the team here; there is basically nothing the opponent can do in some matchups, which is usually teams relying solely on Snorlax for their blanket special check or phazers that are not Muk. I will say though that Bellossom does heavily rely on Tera Poison to steal games. I don't think this is too big on an issue since its something you build with in mind when using Bellossom, and when using Bellossom, you always are building around it rather than slapping it onto a team due to this factor.

If the opponent has Trick/Encore users, they do have a chance, but I think the main concern is that Bellossom shouldn't be used as a Quiver Dance early game. It is used late game, usually alongside tera, when most of its checks are crippled or there is simply nothing left to stop it. Also on Psyshock, Bellossom is really physically bulky with Grassy Seed, so it's not an amazing way to bank on beating Bellossom even after Terastallization. The Ground-type weakness also doesn't come up much. Bellossom is strongest on Grassy Terrain in my opinion, and that already cuts Earthquake damage and most of them are also afraid of Bellossom anyways.

As for other counterplay, I did not find Malamar to be concerning at all. It alongside Bellossom, is a sweeper who takes a little bit to get running which usually ends up with Bellossom winning the interaction. Sap Sipper Pokemon do work, but I also think that this is quite specific, as Farigiraf running Sap Sipper can really hurt a team's matchups into Prankster Encore Pokemon such as Sableye and Whimsicott, which is VERY important for Grassy Terrain, where offensive Farigiraf is seen. As for defensive, it also works, but it's not a very common Pokemon. The best counterplay I have seen so far is Haze Weezing and Muk. If they run Toxic Spikes however, they usually don't have Haze so they don't beat Bellossom anymore.

I do think there are answers for Bellossom. But I think this Pokemon ultimately is not healthy for builder. Most blanket special checks/set up prevention is bypassed by Bellossom or has a caveat towards it.
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getting uninteractive setup sweepers that mandate specific checks out of the tier is a net positive​

I really do agree with this point made. Bellossom is not a very splashable Pokemon due to its reliance on Terastallization. It's a low risk ban with a good payoff in my personal opinion due to how Bellossom's hard counters are much more specific then most other setup sweepers available in the tier.​