Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
In this stage we will first reflect on the process so far, discussing what we've learned from this process, how this well we have fulfilled its concept, and what impact CAP 36 had on the metagame. After that, we will discuss some possible minor tweaks to the product in order to better fulfill our goals. Please follow the Topic Leader's instructions and don't propose any specific changes until they say so.
Hey everyone! Now that Ramnarok's playtest is wrapped up and we've got plenty of information about how it fits into the CAP metagame, let's take another look at it here in the PPL! I wanna start off with some questions:
How well does Ramnarok accomplish its concept and framework? How important is each form to the gameplay patterns of Ram? Does it successfully set up its own cleaning later in games?
How does Ramnarok fare in the CAP Metagame? Is it overpowered, underpowered, in a sweet spot between the two? How effective is its movepool? Does it need more to be effective, or does it require tapping down in some areas?
What takeaways can we get from Ramnarok's process? What can we learn from this process about frameworks, form changes, cleaning, or any other major points of the CAP's creation?
Lot to start off with, so lets go with a 72 Hour soft(ish) deadline for this one. Thanks everyone, I'm excited to talk Ram with everyone!
In my opinion base Ramnarok is balanced, but when you transform it the power increase feels slightly underwhelming, my suggestion would be to give it just 6 more spA to make it a little stronger. The spot its in right now is good but the reward for being able to finally position it good enough to be able to click polar flare being 20 spA less than clicking calm mind is in my opinion a little too weak, especially when there are enough checks for it like glowking, shox, revenankh, physical iron valiant, equilibra (full hp or assault vest) and garganacl walling it, crippling it or destroying it
I don't enjoy being a downer, but frankly Ramnarok has felt like a lukewarm addition to the metagame. It does not seem to accomplish its concept particularly well either.
Inferno is a blessing and a curse for Ramnarok. It's an incredibly strong move, but also one with clear limitations—against Pokemon immune or indifferent to burn, Ramnarok's progress is immediately capped, regardless of what form it's in. Ramnarok's impact on a game often boils down to paralysis fishing on Pokemon like Mollux, Hemo, and Slowking-G. Versus something like Garganacl or cloak Revenankh, it can't even do that much. But this was more or less what we expected—paralyzing its checks is accomplishing its concept, setting the stage for it to sweep later, right?
Well, not always. Once Ramnarok's switch-ins are eliminated, it often would rather spam Inferno in base than transform and sweep, because Inferno is simply that good. Its gameplan of para-fishing with 30% chances is too inconsistent to truly feel like it accomplishes the concept. Moreover, even if para-fishing was consistent, are we really fulfilling concept when the most progress we can make in half our games is inflicting status on a single opposing Pokemon? And since the radiant form isn't being effectively set up for success, then why not just ditch transforming and stay in the base form, which is a competent breaker on its own? The Inferno mon having a gameplan that revolves around paralysis is a bit ironic, but honestly that's what my experience has been using it.
Ultimately, this all leaves it feeling somewhat linear and limited in base, because its progress is hard capped whenever it faces a decent Inferno switch-in (most balances will have one without even trying). It also leaves its radiant form feeling overshadowed by the sheer usefulness of spamming Inferno whenever switch-ins don't exist.
Polar Flare also sucks. Not inherently—many people during the process believed that a 75 BP STAB with no useful secondary effect was going to be fundamentally unworkable, and I always disagreed with this. However, pairing it with Inferno was a mistake. You can't pair a 6/10 move with an 11/10 move and expect to ever click the 6/10 move. If Fire Blast or Flamethrower was our main STAB, okay, Polar Flare is probably going to find turns where it's the best click. But it is hugely overshadowed on the same moveset as No Guard Inferno and high-BP boltbeam coverage. The move does not make sense in the context of our toolkit.
You also do not get any defensive benefit from changing forms. AKA, what people referred to during the process as "dancing". I think this was a missed opportunity, and a gripe I have with the concept as a whole. Polar Flare's utility is handicapped because we designed it to be a "click once in an endgame scenario" move. We sequestered the radiant form to the endgame, which makes the form change relatively less valuable.
With that out of the way, I'd like to get into what I think Ramnarok does well. Firstly, it's super fun. Subjective take but it's such a unique mon despite its shortcomings that I think it's a blast to use. It also matches up very well into offense in my opinion. These teams often lack decent Inferno switchins beyond Hemo and Cloak Rev, and the former is at risk of paralysis. Other switch-ins like Stratagem have to fear Polar Flare -> Blizzard, while something like Moth is forced to burn its booster early. The radiant form is great versus offense, because its insane speed, power, and coverage kinda just let you oneshot a lot of frail HO mons. This means that Ramnarok is pretty good on offense itself, because AV Ram is one of the best switch-ins to opposing Ram, and you can usually run its best item (AV) freely since offense cares comparatively less about hazards than fatter team styles. Offense is also good at abusing Ramnarok's rather linear switch-ins and taking advantage of whatever it can paralyze or burn. Whether on offense or against it, this is where I see Ramnarok excelling and doing what it's supposed to.
I think Ramnarok's process was also amazing. I don't believe we made the best choices in every stage, but that is simply the CAP experience. This is an awful way to make a Pokemon—it's inefficient, lacks iteration, and decisions are up to the masses instead of "experts". At the same time, all of this also makes for some amazing discussions and great learning moments. I didn't feel like there was a single dull, obvious, or straightforward stage in Ramnarok's process. I think it was one of the most interesting processes I've personally been a part of, and while I can't speak for the artists, the framework's additional burdens did not feel like too heavy of a workload. I'm glad we chose to challenge ourselves with this CAP.
All things considered, I think we could make the radiant form a tad stronger, but the base is pretty much where it needs to be. This doesn't feel like a mon that can easily be changed without fundamentally reworking its whole design. I'd advocate for very few changes during this PPL.
At the same time, all of this also makes for some amazing discussions and great learning moments. I didn't feel like there was a single dull, obvious, or straightforward stage in Ramnarok's process. I think it was one of the most interesting processes I've personally been a part of, and while I can't speak for the artists, the framework's additional burdens did not feel like too heavy of a workload. I'm glad we chose to challenge ourselves with this CAP.
I haven’t played much SV CAP, but I have watched a good few replays with Ramnarok. I think it is perfect as is. It’s an interesting inclusion on balance and offense teams that holds its own through Inferno’s utility. The transformation forme doesn’t always come out, but I think that’s ok. Ramnarok gets to constantly threaten turning into a sweeper, and sometimes it does get to sweep once a game has gone on long enough. I think the best course for Ramnarok is to not change anything about it. Its playstyle is fun, it’s not a particularly overbearing metagame presence, and it isn’t unviable by any definition of the word.
Polar Flare should be buffed then. It doesn't need to stay as a Relic Song clone. We can take the risk breaking from the concept for a bit and making it worth using alongside Inferno. Either increase the base power or increase the freeze chance to 20% or something
I feel like we should change polar flares freeze chance to a burn chance, it doesnt affect gameplay at all and the freeze chance just adds another variable that happens rarely that could potentially lose you the game on luck, so id love to see polar flare have a burn chance, heck, make it 30% if you want to have it be a good click next to inferno but the freeze chance isnt competitive imo
I feel like we should change polar flares freeze chance to a burn chance, it doesnt affect gameplay at all and the freeze chance just adds another variable that happens rarely that could potentially lose you the game on luck, so id love to see polar flare have a burn chance, heck, make it 30% if you want to have it be a good click next to inferno but the freeze chance isnt competitive imo
I like Ramnarok a lot and think its mostly fine as is, but it does add a rather annoying layer to teambuilding as you pretty much need something that can soak up status (either Inferno burn or Thunder paras) or add a Garganacl to your team if you're not running pure offense which is also one of its strongest matchups. There's a lot of variance introduced when you try to check it solely with mons like Hemogoblin as they are prone to getting para'd and potentially haxed (and then you also have to account for the Tera Blast Ground chance...), and it sometimes gets pretty frustrating to deal with. However, a lot of its stronger defensive checks that get spammed such as Garg and Mollux do tend to stop the mon dead in its tracks unless its TBlast, so it ends up feeling not that strong and a bit inconsistent if we're being honest. Its weird... I wouldn't call the mon broken especially compared to some of the demonic CAPs still running around (Mr. Stored Power, Mr. Triage that makes balance lowkey unviable say hello) but part of me kinda wishes it didn't have such status-y moves to click. It would make it easier to check without resorting to supremo fat, which might just make it dogass but idk I'm just lowkey tired of Inferno + Thunder. Polar Flare freeze is also the icing on the variance cake here
Yeah this pretty much sums up my experience playing with and against ram.
I feel like ram is a weird case where there are very few checks but a reasonable number of counters, probably cause its bulk makes it very tough for would-be offensive checks to meaningfully threaten it or they cant take the status. This makes it kinda all-or-nothing, which explains why it kinda feels oppresive and mid at the same time.
Despite the issues, ram is still cool as fuck and delivers on its design philosophy. Popping radiant form and clicking these powerful moves that other mons can’t competitively run feels awesome.
I haven’t been involved in the cap process so I don’t really know what I’m talking about, but if I had to take a shot at fixing it I’d maybe go like wildbolt storm>thunder and give it a way to make progress into counters. Polar flare getting Hex properties instead of a freeze would be really cool.
My thoughts mostly echo what spoo has already outlined: Ram feels like a lukewarm addition to the tier.
Much of Ram's struggles come from the inability to click effectively into the tier. Most teams feel shielded from the status headache Inferno was intended to cause and paralysis fishing with Thunder can often feel like an inefficient use of a turn. I find Tera Blast ground sets to be the most productive, but having a tera hog slot is equally a hindrance. To remedy most of these strains, I tend to drop Polar Flare and run Inferno/Thunder/Blizzard/Tera Blast which misses out on the ability to use half of the mon.
Ram would be fine if left as-is, but it also feels like it is on the cusp of being great. I'm convinced movepool adjustments can get us there, but I am unsure what that looks like.
I have jotted down some of the thoughts I have had while building with and using Ram. I'm not saying to address all of these/any of these, but I think addressing some of these pushes the mon closer to a tier staple.
"I really want to use the Inferno/Freeze-Dry/TB Ground/Polar Flare set but having to dedicate my tera slot blows... I wish this thing had some natural ground coverage."
"I wish this thing had more ways to make progress rather than just clicking attacks. Most of these answers heal off the damage and do not care about status."
"I wish clicking Polar Flare was more of a surprise to my opponent. If they didnt just expect me to be using the move by default, transforming into Radiant would be more effective."
"I wish Polar Flare was a sound move. Being able to get a +1 from Throat Spray would make this default set go hard."
"I wish I had a reason to use an item other than Assault Vest. Leftovers would be so nice, but I'd be missing out if I didn't use AV."
"I wish this played more like Heatran. Getting the value of Inferno while filling the role a Heatran would provide simplifies this team."
Hey everyone! Thanks for your patience as we move through this stage. Here's what I've got from reading thread:
Ramnarok has definitely landed in an... awkward state, I think is the best way to describe it. Posts like Wulf's, Spoo's, and RainQueen's have all highlighted a few common thoughts.
The form change isn't amazingly impactful, but its a ton of fun. Spoo's post highlights how at-odds the idea of "clicking Inferno a ton" and "change form later on to win" can be, and it seems safe to say that the best set that Ram can run probably doesn't include Polar Flare at the moment. Polar Flare/Transforming sets do have a home, however, even if they are underwhelming compared to concept and some of our thoughts in process. The other main trend I've seen about Polar Flare/Transforming/Ram in general is that the mon has been fun to use and to play with. Getting a transformation off and winning with it feels great. Finding a way through the hard-counter heavy matchups is an enjoyable challenge.
Ram's maybe not the most fun to play against. The status-heavy nature of Ram and the way that it shook out in the metagame makes it a frustrating Pokemon to play against at times. Some games you'll find yourself worried about it remarkably little because you've got a Garg or something similar, and some games you'll lose a check to a Thunder para or be forced to eat multiple frustrating Inferno burns, even if Ram isn't a threat to win the game against you. Ram is inconsistent playing with it and playing against it.
The process and the end product came out pretty dang good! The posts that commented on how enjoyable (or mostly enjoyable) Ram is to pilot show that even with some of these shortcomings, Ram has been a solid addition to CAP. Spoo's post also highlights this Framework process in comparison to our past Frameworks, and the interesting decisions we had to take to get to this point. I also feel like of the three processes that I've lead as TL and the many more I've been a part of, Ramnarok's felt like it was one of my absolute favorites.
If we change anything, we should keep it small. The consensus on this seems to be that Ram really doesn't need that much to happen. A lot of comments in thread have pointed to small-scale changes, if any changes at all are deemed needed. Before we go into discussing any potential changes, I want to take 48 hours or so and figure out if we really want to mess with it at all.
The biggest question for me is: what is there even to change? Most people seem to agree that something is off about Ramnarok currently, but a lot of the changes I’ve seen thrown around feel like they fundamentally upend the mon’s design in one way or another. Whether this is by changing the Radiant form's typing to incentivize the form change; giving out additional utility that would let Ram make more consistent progress, but probably at the cost of dropping Polar Flare; cutting Inferno and refocusing our toolkit on a replacement like Zap Cannon; or changing Polar Flare's mechanics to make it stronger, all of these feel like they lose the plot a bit. This doesn't mean that they wouldn't work, necessarily—but changes like these either abandon the aims of the concept, break the rules of the framework, or gamble by pushing Ramnarok into deeply unknown territory.
I think we have room to play around with stats, minor movepool additions, and maybe a secondary ability, but it's hard to figure out what's actually worth changing. Anything that makes it feel more worthwhile to transform is probably fair game though, aside from the aforementioned stuff like changing Polar Flare mechanics or Ram's typing.
I believe a fair coverage move we could give Ramnarok, even though it doesn’t make too much sense thematically but neither does Thunder, is Brine. It’s main use would be in the Garganacl matchup, which would allow Ram to finish him off if he manages to get him below half. Perhaps the Radiant form could receive between 5-10 SpAtk from its defenses or attack to help reach this threshold more easily.
Another move that wouldn’t help much with the transformation incentive but I’d like anyways is Body Press, since he can’t be burned and I like ID BP sets. Maybe Ram could even stomach a few Rev Drain Punches after the boost…
Ram is a functional mon to use atm, but its also a bit of a frustrating mon to both use and face.
I think my issue with the mon is its checks are too sturdy for a mon that has to spend a low-tempo turn to actually threaten to clean. Most of its competition is significantly more threatening given one turn of setup, and while you can occasionally get that turn for free by KO-ing an opponent using Polar Flare, that situation isn't common enough. ID Zama is the mon that makes the most sense to compare Ram to in my mind, both being mons that have major utility against offense due to titanic bulk on one side, and both of which can threaten to end a game. One major difference is that while Ram threatens to clean a game, while Zama threatens to sweep a game. Another is that ID Zama can run basically anything it wants in its last slot, from Roar to Wild Charge to Substitute to Rest, and tanks to Tera can definitely cheese through would-be bad matchups. By comparison, the best Ram can do is occasionally run Tera Blast Ground to cheese through Mollux and Garg, at the cost of either its main STAB move or major coverage.
Zama is also a fairly good comparison because both mons sorta struggle with how many times they want to be on the field. While Zama obviously struggles more due to the one-time nature of Dauntless Shield, Ram's weakness to hazards, marriage to Assault Vest, and typing conspire to make the mon a bit difficult to actually execute concept with. Its hard to wear down your own checks for late game when your entire design wants to be brought in maybe 2 times a game.
This is also a very hard mon to change anything about because its current set of AV + Inferno/Blizzard/Thunder/Polar Flare really only runs Polar Flare because it doesn't have a better 4th. There is some synergy in that Radiant does like having a lot of high BP moves available, but Ram-base is honestly pretty happy to be very fat, have the coverage to punish the switch-ins to Inferno, and honestly would be just as happy with something like Knock-off last. I find myself transforming either 0 or 1 times in most games, because frankly Ram-base is just so happy to click its high BP moves, and the benefit of transforming is often less than just statusing something.
If we are to give Ram anything in PPL, I think its a bit of unpredictability. Not a ton, not enough to necessarily OHKO would-be counters, but a bit. Ram is too easy to plan a late-game against because you know what its going to be running in a solid 70% of games, and the second tera is spent by a teammate, you know exactly what you have to preseve for late game, with no real variance beyond potential Thunder paras. Any increase in variability has the potential to make the main set significantly nicer to use, as it forces your opponent to keep more resources healthy late. Its possible that I should rather be saying "utility against balance" rather than unpredictability here, and I accept that.
===
Some ways to nudge up variability and make the mon a tad more unpredictable:
1) Give it a secondary ability that gives up its current status spreading playstyle in exchange for the ability to break past some of its would-be checks in the late game. This is relatively safe because No Guard shows itself after your first attack.
Supreme Overlord is the best option I can think of here, and can situationally let you bypass some would-be if you have all teammates dead and one layer of hazards or tera. The tempo loss from transforming is still very much present, and while this helps offset the loss by letting you get more KOs with Polar Flare, it doesn't help you a ton if you still have healthy checks. Frankly SO is also a signature, and that feels a bit bad.
Lightning Rod was mentioned in the actual process pretty heavily, and I think is still quite solid now. Main reason for this really is just giving the mon significantly more ins, which is where it struggles atm, notably on the rising Hatt and ever-present Glowking. I should note the latter is still very fine with clicking FS, Chilly, and then threatening you with a checkmate situation. That said its unclear if you really compete with No Guard that much, and you still can't break Garg/Shox, although the latter can only repeatedly Knock you.
Spitballing hard here: Download weirdly does seem to work with concept and the existing framework in my mind. The abiltiy is inconsitent enough that you still really want to pack some utiltiy on your set to help yourself set up for late game. Your ideal situation here is to bring in Ram after a KO, get a boost, and Polar Flare, which is neat, and you still have the bulk to play early game, and you still want to use that bulk to play early game. That said horrible design synergy.
Merciless and giving the mon Poison Gas still fulfills concept, still keeps most of its checks, though not all, and gives us an insanely unique mon. Its also way too heavy of a departure from the existing mon and I'm unsure if it even moves the needle, though the Shox matchup is notably better. See Corrosion for a similar option. Both are "safe" as long as we specifically deny Toxic, though Poison Gas is 90% and is perfectly usable.
Trace is trace and is good in CAP for the usual reasons aka Equilibra.
Anger Shell and Berserk are both ways for us to add some method of SpA boosting to the kit that is inaccessible to the Inferno version of the mon. Both are likely usable, with the latter giving us an obvious go-button. Both let us decide that now is the time to try to break their one check, though at the cost of softening up the opposing team using Inferno explicitly, and the SpA boost, while nice, also means we're using 90 rather than 100-110 BP moves. Berserk is really cool, and could shine with correct support as a sorta weirder Moltres-Galar.
You'd want to give some auxiliary utility move here to preserve concept, be it hazards, Taunt, Encore, or the forbidden Leech Seed.
2) Give it some coverage or utility move that can let it pressure a subset of its existing checks more effectively, or set up its existing checks to be worn down late. Issue here is that Inferno/Blizzard/Thunder/Filler asks the question whether Polar Flare is the best Filler, and as is the answer is only "probably".
Focus Blast + Tera-Fighting removes Garg as a reliable check. Its also not very good because your 4th slot becomes incredibly confusing. Do you run Freeze Dry over Thunder/Blizzard and accept that Mollux is a forever check? Do you drop Inferno and just give up your ability to pressure Grounds nearly as well? Water coverage does similar things, but IMO a tad worse cause your moveslots become worse due to not being able to pressure opposing Water-types (read Argh) with them.
Earth Power / Scorching Sands basically look at Tera Blast Ground sets and make them on-par with the main set. You are suddenly way less of a Tera-hog, you demand far fewer team resources to function, and your opponent can't just hard swap in Mollux forever the second you pop Tera on your Miasmaw. That said, this also makes the mon just very annoying to face, and arguably is too much variance.
Spitballing hard here: Magma Storm is a legendary sig, makes us notably stronger vs frankly a lot of stuff, and drastically raises the cheese factor while not really adjusting the power of Inferno sets. Its also probably not something we can or should add.
Spikes is the easy route here, and is a classic for a reason. That said, Inferno/Spikes/Blizzard/Thunder is almost definitely stronger than a Polar Flare set, and Spikes is also mutually exclusive with the current best set Assault Vest. Don't love it. Knock Off is similar, letting you break past Mollux and Garg more easily with hazard support, however Polar Flare + Knock is awkward to run at best.
Dynamic Punch totally works guys, its pro-concept by cheesing through Garg/Shox and it abuses No Guard trust.
Lower Power options:
Mainly choosing moves that are incompatible with the current AV, and don't really function super well on a Heatran-style set. Encore has direct synergy with both our existing playstyle, as we can Encore a hypothetical Garg, Mollux, or Shox after Inferno'ing them, as well as creating higher tempo Polar Flares. Taunt does a similar job, letting us more directly wear down these targets, though god if the moveslots aren't sorta awkward for both. You have to at least mention SR, though has the 3 attack problem.
Psychic Noise is an option that works on AV, more directly targets Mollux, and sorta stands in for Thunder against Argh, making the moveslots easier compared to pure utility options. Its neat, helps us pressure our current counters a bit without being overpowering, and if you think the current mon is fine, its imo a safe option that just slightly nudges the needle.
3) Sound move Polar Flare
Fairly simple one, lets us run Throat Spray on Ram, simplifying its usage on offense, and making the mon far more straightforward. This is arguably a bit anti-concept, because it means there's way less incentive to soften up the opponent's team using the base before attempting a sweep, and moves us far more into just a straightforward sweeper role. That said, if we want to make Radiant forme better, this is a very straightforward way to go down that path.
Lower Power options:
Mainly choosing moves that are incompatible with the current AV, and don't really function super well on a Heatran-style set. Encore has direct synergy with both our existing playstyle, as we can Encore a hypothetical Garg, Mollux, or Shox after Inferno'ing them, as well as creating higher tempo Polar Flares. Taunt does a similar job, letting us more directly wear down these targets, though god if the moveslots aren't sorta awkward for both. You have to at least mention SR, though has the 3 attack problem.
I really like these ideas - giving Ram the choice between the bulk of AV and the breaking potential of these moves is a more interesting way to buff the mon than just buffing stats or whatever. Boots ram is perfectly serviceable defensively in my experience so I think both sets would see use.
Taunt is my favorite since it lets you beat these mons but they still get to chip you so you don’t just encore their recover -> win.
Seems like we're in agreement that we should at least look at some small-scale changes to Ramnarok. With that in mind, I wanna open up discussion and submissions for packages and buffs! If you've got ideas for what we can do to give Ram a little tune up, make sure to submit them here!
