Metagame RU Metagame Discussion Thread [October 2025 Shifts! Gyarados and Volcanion Quickbanned, Mamoswine Banned] [#27]

Elec-ant1234 · Oct 2, 2025

ALRIGHT so lets go through this one by one.

zause said:
It usually opts to run stabs taunt and then one of fire spin earth power body press or focus blast. If it is the common set, you can send in your Noivern and just hardwall it (rip mence)

so right off the bat we're lying
252+ SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Noivern: 118-140 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
in what world is this "hardwalling". Your noivern is getting 3HKOed. Aside from noivern's other jobs this damage makes it incredibly hard to do anything else aside from clicking roost over and over. It cannot meaningfully damage or threaten volc, and the volc player can just like. Switch out and preserve volc so they're usually in a good position if vern switches in directly. And just like in general this is nowhere NEAR hardwalling, what are you even saying man. The ONLY thing that can be considered hardwalling in this matchup is that fact that volc eventually will run out of steam eruption PP, but like again the volc player has things they can do aside from mindlessly clicking steam

zause said:
If it is this tera fairy blast set it uses it and then is checked by Jirachi, MukA, Gardevoir (who always checks it)

Again just yapping with literally nothing to back your claims up.

JIRACHI. JIRACHI THE STEEL TYPE. AGAINST A MON WITH FIRE AND WATER COVERAGE IS A CHECK TO VOLCANION.

Muk I can see, that's a complete given, hell it's the most important job it has on stall teams, check volc so that it doesn't kill blissey.

but Garde? 252+ SpA Tera Fairy Volcanion Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 127-151 (45.8 - 54.5%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
THAT Garde?? 252+ SpA Tera Fairy Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 144-169 (51.9 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
THIS GARDE???

zause said:
Fat waters can also typical trade with it

are the fat waters in the room with us right now? The list of what could reasonably be considered "Fat Waters" in RU atm are:
Volcanion, Slowbro, Quagsire (debatably), Empoleon, Suicune, Swampert (again debatably), Vaporeon (MIA for months), and if you're crazy Milotic. Out of all of those, who the hell trades with volc? Slowbro has to slowly chip volc down while having to stave off earth power after earth power, Empo can really only knock, Volc ofc will trade with itself, and everyone else pretty much cannot switch in, damage, or trade reliably with volc. Again I ask, are the fat waters in the room with us right now. And going into teras doesn't reveal much else, like, Hippo? That's who you're expending tera on to trade w/ Volc?

zause said:
Also over 140+ uses in tournaments, it has a lowish 47% winrate, which when compared to something like Mamoswine who's also being considered for a ban, is very low. If it was broken, surely it would be consistently helping its team win, no?

The big thing with volc is the pressure it puts on the teambuilder. All of these players built for volcanion, so naturally it would have a lower winrate. Also nearly 50% is like still really good. That level of consistency over 140+ games is not something to dismiss.

zause said:
Gyarados was likely broken, but like Guldkatt said, you don't tier on hypothetical metagames.

"likely broken" it's BEEN broken. The hypothetical metagame here is one with it's most splashable check gone. We know what SV RU with gapdos and gyara looks like, so it's not exactly rocket science to piece together a rough estimate of what the tier would look like without gapdos and with gyara. If it was broken before, and one of it's main checks is gone, I sure wonder what that means for the brokenness of a previously broken mon.

zause said:
bringing up stuff from what could be about a year half ago in the case of the latter post to say someone is wrong rather than counteracting the argument does not make your argument look better.

tbh my intent was to weaken his argument, but fair enough

zause said:
I also don't know where this 24/7 bickering is. To me, it is just LBN and the occasional other person complaining.

I'm sorry, but the 24/7 bickering is happening in the RU discord, which you are currently banned from. To be fair, these forums HAVE been very silent, so going off of that information alone, you have been running behind the rest of the community due to that, so given the limited information available, to you, I can't blame you for feeling like you haven't seen anything, which you haven't tbh. And I just wanna say that like, I have been kinda tearing into zause here, but I don't wanna make it seem like he's a bad player or anything. I believe, given the circumstances, that zause is more or less uninformed, going mostly off of his own experiences to form his takes. He just ended up interpreting said experiences in a way that I (frankly) disagree with, but again he ain't a bad player or anything.

~~anyways feen, tiering council, I call on you to retest volc in 2 weeks in order to placate the masses~~
lowkey keep that shit outta RU keep em banned

Lyra · Oct 2, 2025

I'm not sure what y'all are going back and forth on, these mons were going to be suspected on and they were going to get banned if they didn't get qb'd. The only part that annoyed me A LOT was that this didn't happen sooner. But it's okay I'm glad it happened at LEAST. I think the qb was fine cuz atleast this gives the metagame time to develop. I understand where the others are coming from but like, please let us have a healthy metagame for a longer time before UU or OU shit on us again like.
Please DO NOT retest Volcanion that mon is genuine cancer idgaf.
(Maybe next time try listening to the peeps is all I can say girl)

zause · Oct 2, 2025

Gonna respond to this because my original post may not have as clear as intended

Elec-ant1234 said:
in what world is this "hardwalling".

You can just Roost off the damage, I'm pretty sure every Noivern bar Specs (uncommon) runs roost so yea. Pretty much hard walled like you said because it can't outdamage roost and loses pp first as a result.

Elec-ant1234 said:
Again just yapping with literally nothing to back your claims up.

I am correct. The definition of check is "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax." Jirachi is, in fact a check because Iron Head flinch is 60%, so not getting it is hax. Besides that, flamethrower doesn't kill so yea Jirachi is 1000% a check. Same with garde. You don't have to switch into the pokemon to be a check. That is not what I am claiming.

Elec-ant1234 said:
are the fat waters in the room with us right now? The list of what could reasonably be considered "Fat Waters" in RU atm are:
Volcanion, Slowbro, Quagsire (debatably), Empoleon, Suicune, Swampert (again debatably), Vaporeon (MIA for months), and if you're crazy Milotic. Out of all of those, who the hell trades with volc?

I've used Water Absorb Quag in the past in tournaments to success (2024 Fall Sznl iirc), Volcanion obviously trades with itself lol but that's not a good argument ofc, Slowbro trades with it, Empo trade with this Tera Fairy set, and Swampert can kind of but wasn't really what I was thinking of.
e: Gastro too ofc lol we both forgot

Elec-ant1234 said:
The big thing with volc is the pressure it puts on the teambuilder. All of these players built for volcanion, so naturally it would have a lower winrate. Also nearly 50% is like still really good. That level of consistency over 140+ games is not something to dismiss.

Nearly 50% is OK. Reminder that ties do not exist in Pokemon. Over such a high usage percentage however, 47% is quite bad because a lot of games are mirror matches, so the clean winrate is probably closer to 40%, which is awful (wish I mentioned this in original post).

For the bickering part, I now understand that, thank you. I do not particularly agree with listening to discords for information, but overall at least now I know where the bickering is coming from. Like you said, I mostly just get my information from playing mons and scanning the forums so my takes are usually a bit different because I value how I experience how I engage with the mon in practice rather than in the builder. I have built most of my own teams recently, and still have been able to combat Volc effectively, but I can see how it would be frusturating. I still don't think it's enough to justify a quickban however, given the survey and inability to let the tier settle. Thank you for posting so I could clarify my post.

TheFranklin · Oct 2, 2025

I'm gonna shed a bit of light on the tiering process in the last few months.
The last survey was held mid July. The results were indecisive, as nothing got a majority supporting for tiering action. The overall sentiment did not point at something being particular broken. Everybody had their own opinion on who was broken, and there was a lot of disagreement on whether certain mons were broken (for example, player A thought Salamence was broken and Volcanion wasn't, while player B thought vice versa).
After initially doing nothing, the council nevertheless felt a Salamence suspect was warranted. This lead to Salamence's ban at the end of the first week of August. After this, the council wanted to give the tier time to develop, as nothing really stood out at the time (though i should note there were already people calling for a volcanion and gyarados ban).
In the month that followed, the perspective on certain pokemon slowly shifted. More and more people got annoyed by the overwhelming potential of Volcanion, Gyarados and Mamoswine, both in the builder as in the game. This was clear from an increasing amount of discussion regarding these pokemon in the RU discord server. All three pokemon have the potential to pick what checks them by customizing their (move)set.

For Gyarados that is sub DD tera dark, tera fly chesto, and also tera ground EQ or even tera fairy sets.
For Volcanion that is between fire spin, taunt, tera blast fairy, earth power, body press and choice specs sets.
For Mamoswine that is between boots, never melt ice, and choice band sets

From these gyarados has the highest sweeping/cheese potential which is also why it was the most obnoxious and had the most support for tiering action.

Mid september it was clear to the council that it was time for tiering action. However, with shifts around the corner, a suspect test ending days before potential drops would be pointless. So unfortunately there was not much to do at that point but to wait for shifts and see if anything major changed with the shifts. We also decided that we would hold a slate on these three pokemon, unless something dropped that would drastically influence one of the three.
Since the only relevant change was Gapdos leaving, which Gyarados would very much appreciate, we went through with the slate.
We felt the slate was needed based on our own opinions on these pokemon, as well as various discussions in the RU server and calls for action both in the server as on the forums.

Now onto my own votes in the slate: I believe all three are broken. Gyarados is the most obvious one, but I think both mamo and volc are also too much. Looking back, I wish we had tested both gyarados and volcanion or even mamo earlier, somewhere end of August/start of September. It was a tough call however, since the overall community opinion shifted slowly over the course of the month. A bit more proactive approach, keeping in mind the upcoming shifts in October, would perhaps have been better here.
Now, with the increasing amount of support for action on Volcanion and that action being a bit overdue due to the shifts, together with my own opinion that Volcanion is broken, I felt comfortable voting for QB. However, I did not want to QB 3 pokemon without any direct participation from the community so I voted suspect on the, in my opinion, least broken of the three: Mamoswine.

I think these bans are a net positive for the RU tier and I hope the tier can develop positively. I'm curious to see the meta developments of the coming weeks/months!

EviGaro · Oct 2, 2025

Honestly I agree this is bad.

Look, I get it from both sides here. This community has been particularly trigger happy this gen, and sometimes it was very frustrating to be around. Then again, I'm sure they felt the same way about me! After all they were happy when feen took over and look now...

But old pettiness aside, there's a process for a reason. I distinctly hated how quickbans had to be used over a whole goddamn year and more because of the DLC schedule, but at least you could argue the exceptionally difficult state this put us in. But quickbans more than a year after this was settled? Because of a shift that ended up moving two mons, one of which is very inconsequential? At no point was this a reasonable way to invoke a quickban process in the past, and it is very hard to justify here.

Which as I was writing Franklin posted to justify, but to me this just compounds on the issue. You don't justifiably go from "fine" to "slowly shifting into unanimous quickban" with the way the process is agreed upon. That still needs to be put forward as a suspect. Furthermore, this isn't even something the community agrees with, as Franklin also stated. If that's how the tier developped, then something somewhere fucked up.

Which to me leads to some actually pressing questions here:

- What's the point of a Council? Is it to hold off community complaints? Is it to address issues with haste once they view action as needed? Is it to lead discussions and be able to contribute to the consensus regarding the state of the tier? Is it to lead innovation across it, so that newer people in the community - or, well, not as talented ones - are able to see other ways to work around the major threats? I honestly think you could make an argument for any of those or even a combination of, but something needs to be clearer to the community because this is confusing for people.

- Is the suspect process actually working? I agree with GoldCat on a point, if you think those mons were quickban worthy, something was messed up big time somewhere. And as Franklin just said, the suspect process was too cumbersome for what leadership viewed as needed. And there's genuinely a point to be made here that maybe things aren't working out, but I don't think you should be able to circumvent the process this way. Either stick to it and tell people look, we fucked up, but this is the process, and then make it an open policy review call to let out your grievances with how the process is failing the tier and how you can take beneficial steps. But don't invent a new category of actions that frankly is not helpful at all for the consistency of the tier moving forward.

- Are surveys actually useful for anything? To me it's been so counterproductive. On one hand the people who champion actions tend to be far more outspoken, which leads to more public complaints, and on the other hand it makes it really rough for Council to not just be something that tries to interpret the consensus that comes out of a survey. Problem is, both sides are talking about completely different things in those cases. I personally really dislike this role for Council, as genuinely I think anyone involved in the community could do this, and cheapens why you want those users in what should be an important role. But regardless, if you can have one three months ago, and eventually view points just "evolve" outside of that consensus, what the hell was the point of the survey? It's just antagonizing at that point.

Anyway, maybe SV was just the worst who knows!

LBN · Oct 2, 2025

This is gonna be a follow-up post now that I'm actually home and feel like typing up a storm, so this will be both a mix of my own throwaway opinions regardless of the Pokemon, and actual metagame discussion after. This is LBN here, not council unanimous speaker of the house or anything, so expect my usual level of.. "professionalism". Basically I'll be swearing whenever I think its funnier =D

For one thing, Evi's post above raises some good points, and some points that go nowhere. On the suspect front, this is something I agree with, but RU council alone has no power to actually change. If it was purely up to me, every SCL starter automatically has reqs tommorow for that Mamoswine suspect test, among others with notable tour results. Suspect process has been lame for a long time, but that's a change that'd need to be made on the policy review front, something way above just one council's paygrade.

As for surveys, I think they are a guideline, and little else. It's worth noting that 1) Gyarados wasn't even on the forefront of that survey as an option, and 2: Salamence was called "fine", but after talking internally, actually prompted again by the post Feliburn made here, we agreed that one of the dragon dancers had to go. I think my personal biggest issues with surveys is they lack the ability for players to input any nuance. Rank broken 1-5, state of tier 1-10, its all very cookie cutter and while not everybody would elaborate too heavily, the mediocore ability to do so tends to fail to give a good picture internally. I don't personally know how I'd go about fixing this, if only because I dont really use google sheets whatsoever, but I do think improvements could be made on that front.

"What does council do?" This is probably the question I don't really care for, mainly because it feels like a bad faith question when you were literally the former tierleader, YOU know why council exists. Actually responding to this point, I don't really know how to answer it in a proper statement. We just have tasks that get done sometimes, and otherwise the role just exists as salad dressing. Council has always, in my eyes atleast, been an oversight commitee to me that does specific tasks, most of which you listed. I don't personally think the difference between me, a council member, and someone like Daharan, not a council member, is that big. Each person's voice matters, and the weight of their voice is held up by results within tournaments, discussions within forums and what have you.

This is just me airing personal sentiments, but I feel like, if I was pushier in council chat maybe Volcanion/Gyarados could've been swung on sooner. I've been on council for like, what, 3 months now? I don't really know how hard I should specifically push against, or for a certain direction in the face of someone being like "naw, just do x" Sure, I may be flippant in casual discussion, but I try to reign that in for stuff like tour-hosting or council stuff, whether proper or on the VR. Obviously that's in the past now, and a lot of the complaints are the road that was taken to get here as opposed to the end result. The complaints of tardiness were heard, and this was the solution we thought of. It wasn't perfect, but I do believe it got us to the exact spot we would've gotten to otherwise.

Now, onto more fun stuff. I won't go over every winner and loser or what have you, because Heatranator beat me to that. I will highlight some toys that'd gotten better though, in a more casual manner.

These are the three fighting types aiming for a piece of Gapdos's pie, and I think all 3 have merit. Flamigo is the most 1:1 comparison as being pretty much a bargain bin Zapdos-Galar, but the tools it lacks, namely knock off, is a massive hole. Not being able to self-remove helmets and the like is a huge blow, and the weaker bulk means its utility is far far worse. I will note Scrappy is a great tool for Tera Bisharp though, I love that alot. Mienshao is likely the best one of these three, as Regenerator is a broken ability and Life orb sets have always been scary. As a scarfer, its faster than even Gapdos but as a consequence, its the frailest of the three options and has next to zero defensive utility. Infernape is the fastest of our options, and the only one who gets a proper jump on a boosted H-Lilligant, which is a valuable thing. It also has Knock off for value, but I think Switcheroo is worth discussing as well to instead, cripple Slowbro/Hippo/Noivern hard, while having superior synergy with attackers like Golurk.

Every water type pretty much got better with Volcanion gone, so that tends to not be very interesting to discuss. Weather though, now you have my attention. Volcanion was a scourge to both Rain and Sun, as was Gyarados to a lesser extent. Removing both makes both of these far more appealing, and I am curious to see how much they can improve/how their usage will change. I think Sun in particular is fairly unexplored, though Rain is as well with pokemon like Ludicolo. Shit'll be fun to see.

lighthouses · Oct 3, 2025

If council is active in the tier and comprised of some of its most knowledgeable players then shouldnt that matter at least a little bit more than the tiering surveys? I feel like it just adds to the sloweness of it all.

Also i would urge people to consider a lot of the points made here with regards to tiering being too slow in this tier even if the posts are made by 'contentious' people. It truly makes no sense that these mons are quick ban worthy yet still somehow were allowed to stay like that for months, clearly something within the process is not working.

I think that council should be able to more aggressively step up on things like this, its quite obvious this happened this way because of the spotlight in the tier due to scl.

Its good to have tiering surveys to get a feel for how everyones feeling and its good to have discussions on discord but lets not pretend like all the endless debate lording that goes on in there doesnt also provide to things moving too slowly.

If the council is chosen carefully and eveyone is active and knows their stuff then i think you guys should just decide on things more without fearing making mistakes, as things can always just get retested and everything right? like we just quickbanned mons that were allowed for months.

tldr council discussion > tiering surveys or discord debating, people will complain no matter what happens anyway

Ming549 · Oct 3, 2025

a lot of heat getting thrown around by the action/inaction of the tier so I do want to weigh in with my personal two cents on what all we had goin on the past few months since the last set of shifts and whatnot

Firsty I wanted to share some of my opinions on the mons on the slate. The big guy I had my eyes on was volcanion as the most unstoppable mon in the tier mostly due to how easy to just slap onto teams + how good it was at doing its job it was. You could know exactly what volc was going to click and when it was going to click it and "try" to play around it but it could just not care and fire spin, steam erupt, burn, maybe tera blast/body press its way through you.

Next guy on the slate I wanna talk about is gyarados, personally this is a guy who I had mixed feelings about since the mence ban. When it was next to mence I thought the combination of the two guys were unstoppable but after mence leaving then it was like, ok the resources you once had to split between stopping mence AND gyara, ur umbreons, foul play slowbro, the tera button in general could be used towards just gyara and then ur chillin. Which tbh, yeah this is kinda what I found to be the case and because of that for a while gyara was like just another setup sweeper that COULD be annoying with the right set/tera but any specific set wasn't unbeatable. Like this is just the case with any number of random setup sweepers this gen, its sv no "counter" is actually a counter to anything and I've learned to live with that. I will say though, gyara, thanks to a pretty good defensive typing and respectable 95/79/100 defensive line, just gets a lot of pretty easy setup opportunities, often multiple dds in one stint out and when coupled with now gapdos having officially left the tier who was a pretty good revenging option for the guy at 1 dd, I think it probably is too much for the tier to handle.

Finally the last guy up Mamoswine, he's a good breaker but like thats it and to me that doesn't really mean much in context. If you picture him in a void 1v1ing a bunch of fat guys he'll look like the greatest mon in history but in reality you gotta deal with guys being faster than you, guys who you WOULD ko teraing and koing you back, dealing with hazards, dealing with ice/ground actually being a pretty bad typing defensively vs a lot of guys in the tier. Now i don't want to undermine this guy entirely, this is still one of if not the hardest guy to switchin into in the tier and if you can generate a lot of free turns from him he can almost single-handedly win you games, its just the whole generating free turns part is like, harder than i think a lot of people give it credit for.

As far as the process went and how we ended up with two quickbans after like a month of sitting on our hands, frank pretty neatly laid it out in his post above but just to reiterate, while all these guys were all good, no one was standout enough amongst them for us to feel they reasonably deserved a suspect over the others. We kinda hoped that would sort itself out so we gave it a month to see if meta shifted any one way, which it didnt... at that point october shifts were like on the horizon so we wanted to wait and see if those would bring anything to help/harm the situation and like basically nothing happened beyond losing big birb... so we jumped into slate. That catches us up to where we basically are now with the prevailing opinion on gyara+volc being a qb and mamo leading to a suspect. Whether or not you agree/disagree with the slate and how things panned out, we could probably have just gone with our gut and pulled trigger on what WE as council thought was a reasonable suspect earlier and I for one will at least keep that in mind going forward when forming my own opinions.

Umbra Soul · Oct 5, 2025

Normally I don't bother with this stuff anymore, but throwing a few pennies into the well to make some sense of this stuff, if you had really looked in the room and probably other chats overall, you'd have known that pretty much everyone for months now would have loved a suspect on literally all 3 in some form. Like Evi said, this is basically ignoring process just to do something because you're being lazy about it or wishy washy and can't come together and make a solid vote to do it.

Now onto a few points I saw mostly towards Lyra and Franklin and a problem I have with their statements of and I quote, "Since the only relevant change was Gapdos leaving, which Gyarados would very much appreciate, we went through with the slate."

Yeah Gyarados and 90% of other things in RU and below. The mon that had 30% usage in the tier more than double and triple some of the usage of things you guys voted to ban and give a suspect to, basically everything loves that being gone except some of the things that loved just running rocky helmet or even dual rocky helmet b/c it was the easiest chip because everyone knows the bulk of people run Gapdos and it's the easiest way to punish it. So much of interactions in this tier centered around Gapdos that it's finally a blessing to see what actually can rise up and be usable as offensive checks. I've said this in the chat for months, I've said it time and again, but Gapdos was so good offensively that no player should/would/could use other options because of how inferior they are or the fact that, you know these scarf mons would be nice to use, but it's a shame they just auto lose to Gapdos as a scarfer. Like I get if you don't think Gapdos was broken because you could check and pick it off in various ways (I still maintain that it was a problematic mon), but it held down so much that now that it's gone, it would have been nice to have 2 weeks to see what we the playerbase could come up with in response to Gyarados and maybe Volcanion now that we don't have to dedicate slots to the most used thing as a way to punish the centralization around it. 2 weeks, would that have been so hard to ask for? Like Gapdos opened up so much for volc and gyarados because of it's versatile U-turn ability and breaking power to weaken stuff so they have easier jobs, the fact THE MOST USED THING is gone should have meant, ok this is basically a reset, let's see how they handle it and if it turns out gyara is as broken as we think it is.

As for "I'm not sure what y'all are going back and forth on, these mons were going to be suspected on and they were going to get banned if they didn't get qb'd."

That does not matter, process exists for a reason, tiering philosophy exists for a reason. The slate is council/TLs identify is something's a problem from certain aspects, and for the most part let the playerbase figure out if there is adequate enough strategies to deal with them, the fact we lost the most used this, see above, we have to at least test out if we have the tools necessary to newly cover those things because losing the most used thing is a massive tiering shift for a metagame, it's basically a new vortex of figuring out what is a problem or not anew. This was we weren't proactive enough (some might call it lazy, I'll call it lazy) and couldn't actively decide.

Anyway, personally I think without Gapdos and all the other stuff we had leave recently due to suspect banning, I didn't personally feel Gyarados was the most unreasonable thing just because of it's speed tier if you were proactive enough to deal with it offensive, defensively a bit harder but a lot of that was again my feeling that Gapdos put a strain in some defensive cores or forcing us to build in a way that we had to answer both, that it obviously made Gyara pretty unreasonable in some ways together.

Volcanion I won't miss, I've said before that for the most part I think it's fine, the only issue with it is that it's beefy enough that you really don't get to OHKO and we're missing anything good in its speed tier range that it has the ability to 1v1 all the things slower than it. Like the speed tier around base 60-80 speed mons just does not really exist in RU, everything is vastly slower or obviously faster, and it just has enough bulk that killing it required losing up to 2 mons which is a bad thing. It just happened to be like the best 1v1 kind of mon in the tier and the amount of things that liked facing it also hated being burned (cyclizar/noivern really hated the status).

Mamo I maintain I think personally is better on paper than practice, it can do a lot of damage, but it's a weird thing it's not hard to kill and it's more that we don't have great switch ins to its stabs, but I think we have good enough offensive presence and a few quality defensive answers if you really want mamo to not entirely wreck your team.

Cielau · Oct 5, 2025

N_Mareanie said:
Y’all are saying these Pokemon were problematic for a good time now - then why was no action taken? If Gyarados and Volcanion were so oppressive for months on end, why did no suspect test happen? “But Galarian Zapdos left, which was a great offensive check!” so we just quickban them? You’re assuming you know exactly the place where the meta is at after Galarian Zapdos left, which you don’t, since the meta has had barely more than *24 hours* to play or adapt. This is just plain wrong tiering and feels like a lame excuse. You have no idea what other potential checks or counter, or teambuilding options open up now that Galardos is gone. Or how the meta will evolve.

Again, if Gyarados and Volcanion were problematic for so long, they should have gotten a suspect test then, or maybe now, but a quickban is extremely ridiculous. Quickbans should only happen when new drops are super broken, like early meta or an Ogerpon drop or something, not for pokemon that have been part of the meta for literal months.

It’s plain wrong tiering and I can not take a tier seriously if a meta staple just gets banned on a whim after a tiering shift without having any say in it like a suspect. It defeats the whole purpose of tiering if we can just do that. I beg to rethink your actions, RU council, and be less reactive in the moment.

I like how all the low tier takes for there grade for a decision in RU... Also like if they never had controversy in OU (past and now). And I have no problem with ur opinion about the tiering decision, they are a subject about it and lot of people are agree with ur point.

But yeah seeing generallity like that doesn't really have this place here, that's not the subject and it's not really a mark of wiseness.

_____________

About the quickbanned himself, I'm personnally happy to finally not have to face or build against these two mons, especially in a meta where we doesn't have access to the best speed control option we had. Imo the council just took advantage of the fact the meta will for sure change, to ban all the problematic mon. Ofc suspect is always the best solution but like in low tier u only have 3 months before a meta change, I can understand a fast decision for something where u can assume a majority of people will be agree.

MrAldo · Oct 6, 2025

Aw, so those mons actually got quickbanned when they have allowed in the tier for months, huh?

Trust me that I get it, but in the end there was a big jump in procedure and overall the leads of this tier has been sleeping on very comfy clouds for months if they had to resort to something like this. If they were quickban worthy this tier shift then they should have suspected and potentially banned mons ago.

But now that the damage is done there really needs to be a discussion of the process when it comes about the decisions as a whole. To me surveys are kind of... useless, they just give more data and one that can be tricky to analyze accurately, now surveys are easy way to gather around responses instead of resorting to a public panel of discussion when does get messy even in a discord. Think the questions need to be reworked or rewritten to better access potential data towards a response

While I do respect the "fuck it, lets do it" action cause it was a no-brainer, we need to be really damn careful with the precedent here. Something didnt work with this gen (yeah I know, terastalization, etc etc but again) so we need to look at things given we dont know how much this gen will last. If you all need to be trigger happy cause tera IS staying at this point, you gotta do it or be asking questions about what is the direction that we want in the tier without having to resort to this. AT LEAST the decision was something that was generally pretty agreeable, you all just have to be extremely careful moving forward cause this event will be brought up, and you need to stand a solid ground into not justifying it

Flamingo is the better pure breaker, mienshao is the perfect but frailest middle ground, and infernape is... there, better scarfer I guess.

Good luck, I think the changes make the prospect for SV in RUCL pretty exciting, most exciting thing in 8 or so months.

LBN · Oct 19, 2025

Now that mamoswine has been banned, let's talk mons. This is purely vibes, but we currently have the least amount of "officially RU" pokemon compared to the other tiers. So, what better thing to do than STEAL. Lots of NU/NUBL guys deserve to be up here, and we can get on to theft. Who makes the cut? Let's yap.

These three need no introduction. Mienshao is the follow-up to what Zapdos-Galar was doing, and its definitely the most threatening between it, The Migo and Infernape. Life Orb is dumb, absurdly strong attacker while Scarf isn't half bad itself. Suicune stock went through the clouds with Volcanion's ban, and checking it is very much an annoying thing to have to do thanks to its ability to just run away with games. Vincune, Crocune, you name it its evil. PZ has been quality stuff for awhile with Download sets, and its a fantastic partner to Mienshao as well, especially with how free U-turn is. Or, would be free if it wasn't for my first vouch. It's like actually stupid how easily PZ can run away with games this mon isn't fair atall and Tera Blast is a very large part of that.

SS RU is back baby. Meet the contact punisher king. While Amoonguss has been much better through most of the gen, Plume has gotten a tremendous buff with Mienshao's prominence. With Regen, stuffing it with Helmet is just not plausible like it was Gapdos, so contact punishing ability like Bellibolt Static and Plume effect spore are your friend. Plume is already annoying to begin with, and spreading paras is always busted. While things like Defiant Bisharp, Sap Sipper Hoodra and Competitive Empoleon give it problems, its well worth using despite these roadblocks. Quality good mon, and I'm slowly becoming very high on it.

Next we have a pair of ground types, one of which never should've fucking dropped. Rhyperior has been gas for a long time, and it got its second wind once G-Weezing rose up. Sadly, it dropped the same shift and lost its "RU by Usage" buff. However, this mon is still flames. SD sets run a clinic on Slowbro Hippo cores, fantastic trade god and has more variety than you'd expect. Flygon meanwhile is someone I've flip-flopped on, and now I'm high on him all over again. Tera Steel is surprisingly annoying to hit for some builds which makes DD very nice to pull off. Very much one of the more underexplored picks in the tier at the moment, and I'd suggest fucking around with it when you get the chance.

Last mon I'll mention for personal take preservation and because its 12:30am and what not is Big Loom. Pheal loom is amazing and has been for a minute, but the tier changes have been amazing for it. PHeal loom like, 1v6s stall full stop. SD Facade shreds everything, thing abuses Umbreon all game, etc. Toxic Leech PHeal is a ridiculous set that can just run clinics on entire teams, something I've done before a couple times. Technician sets imo are worse, but are still good. Mon doesn't like Vileplume's slight uptick right now but at the same time idt Vileplume will be hitting SS RU levels of "its fucking everywhere" so I think it'll be fine. Use this thing more I promise you its sheist.

colorednaem · Nov 3, 2025

Its been a month since shifts so its time for a repeat of my overall tournament stats post from august and im going to be going over things i found notable. Same as last time i used fulllife replay scouter to get the overall tournament statistics.

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Slowbro            |  129 |  28.86% |  53.49% |
| 2    | Noivern            |  123 |  27.52% |  48.78% |
| 3    | Talonflame         |  106 |  23.71% |  51.89% |
| 4    | Krookodile         |   96 |  21.48% |  51.04% |
| 5    | Registeel          |   94 |  21.03% |  52.13% |
| 6    | Jirachi            |   86 |  19.24% |  46.51% |
| 7    | Mimikyu            |   84 |  18.79% |  52.38% |
| 8    | Lilligant-Hisui    |   83 |  18.57% |  56.63% |
| 9    | Cyclizar           |   80 |  17.90% |  51.25% |
| 10   | Gengar             |   76 |  17.00% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Hippowdon          |   76 |  17.00% |  44.74% |
| 12   | Armarouge          |   75 |  16.78% |  48.00% |
| 13   | Bisharp            |   72 |  16.11% |  48.61% |
| 14   | Mienshao           |   66 |  14.77% |  36.36% |
| 15   | Gardevoir          |   49 |  10.96% |  57.14% |
| 16   | Basculegion-F      |   49 |  10.96% |  44.90% |
| 17   | Suicune            |   47 |  10.51% |  55.32% |
| 18   | Crawdaunt          |   45 |  10.07% |  40.00% |
| 19   | Porygon-Z          |   45 |  10.07% |  55.56% |
| 20   | Ribombee           |   42 |   9.40% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Chesnaught         |   42 |   9.40% |  57.14% |
| 22   | Goodra-Hisui       |   40 |   8.95% |  57.50% |
| 23   | Empoleon           |   39 |   8.72% |  53.85% |
| 24   | Gastrodon          |   38 |   8.50% |  44.74% |
| 25   | Mamoswine          |   37 |   8.28% |  64.86% |
| 26   | Mew                |   35 |   7.83% |  48.57% |
| 27   | Entei              |   35 |   7.83% |  48.57% |
| 28   | Blissey            |   33 |   7.38% |  60.61% |
| 29   | Umbreon            |   33 |   7.38% |  51.52% |
| 30   | Flamigo            |   31 |   6.94% |  64.52% |
| 31   | Muk-Alola          |   29 |   6.49% |  51.72% |
| 32   | Diancie            |   28 |   6.26% |  32.14% |
| 33   | Breloom            |   27 |   6.04% |  55.56% |
| 34   | Rhyperior          |   25 |   5.59% |  44.00% |
| 35   | Reuniclus          |   25 |   5.59% |  36.00% |
| 36   | Quagsire           |   23 |   5.15% |  56.52% |
| 37   | Wo-Chien           |   23 |   5.15% |  52.17% |
| 38   | Gallade            |   22 |   4.92% |  27.27% |
| 39   | Cresselia          |   22 |   4.92% |  59.09% |
| 40   | Torterra           |   20 |   4.47% |  70.00% |
| 41   | Gastrodon-East     |   20 |   4.47% |  45.00% |
| 42   | Kleavor            |   19 |   4.25% |  47.37% |
| 43   | Magnezone          |   18 |   4.03% |  33.33% |
| 44   | Lycanroc-Dusk      |   17 |   3.80% |  41.18% |
| 45   | Regidrago          |   17 |   3.80% |  41.18% |
| 46   | Raikou             |   17 |   3.80% |  52.94% |
| 47   | Flygon             |   15 |   3.36% |  46.67% |
| 48   | Tornadus           |   14 |   3.13% |  64.29% |
| 49   | Scrafty            |   14 |   3.13% |  35.71% |
| 50   | Barraskewda        |   14 |   3.13% |  35.71% |
| 51   | Forretress         |   14 |   3.13% |  35.71% |
| 52   | Gligar             |   14 |   3.13% |  64.29% |
| 53   | Maushold           |   13 |   2.91% |  46.15% |
| 54   | Rotom-Heat         |   13 |   2.91% |  61.54% |
| 55   | Feraligatr         |   13 |   2.91% |  46.15% |
| 56   | Amoonguss          |   12 |   2.68% |  41.67% |
| 57   | Politoed           |   11 |   2.46% |  36.36% |
| 58   | Braviary-Hisui     |   10 |   2.24% |  70.00% |
| 59   | Swampert           |   10 |   2.24% |  70.00% |
| 60   | Ditto              |   10 |   2.24% |  60.00% |
| 61   | Kilowattrel        |   10 |   2.24% |  40.00% |
| 62   | Lycanroc           |    9 |   2.01% |  33.33% |
| 63   | Klefki             |    9 |   2.01% |  55.56% |
| 64   | Bronzong           |    9 |   2.01% |  33.33% |
| 65   | Maushold-Four      |    8 |   1.79% |  75.00% |
| 66   | Slowbro-Galar      |    8 |   1.79% |  12.50% |
| 67   | Toxtricity         |    8 |   1.79% |  62.50% |
| 68   | Bellibolt          |    7 |   1.57% |  28.57% |
| 69   | Ninetales-Alola    |    7 |   1.57% |  42.86% |
| 70   | Pawmot             |    7 |   1.57% |  71.43% |
| 71   | Espeon             |    7 |   1.57% |  57.14% |
| 72   | Vaporeon           |    7 |   1.57% |  42.86% |
| 73   | Basculegion        |    6 |   1.34% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Vileplume          |    6 |   1.34% |  66.67% |
| 75   | Overqwil           |    6 |   1.34% |  16.67% |
| 76   | Cetitan            |    6 |   1.34% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Indeedee           |    6 |   1.34% |  33.33% |
| 78   | Decidueye-Hisui    |    6 |   1.34% |  33.33% |
| 79   | Meloetta           |    5 |   1.12% |  80.00% |
| 80   | Terrakion          |    5 |   1.12% |  60.00% |
| 81   | Azelf              |    5 |   1.12% |  40.00% |
| 82   | Chansey            |    4 |   0.89% |  50.00% |
| 83   | Grafaiai           |    4 |   0.89% |  50.00% |
| 84   | Thwackey           |    4 |   0.89% |  50.00% |
| 85   | Toxicroak          |    4 |   0.89% |  25.00% |
| 86   | Lucario            |    4 |   0.89% |  50.00% |
| 87   | Sableye            |    4 |   0.89% |  50.00% |
| 88   | Kingdra            |    4 |   0.89% |  25.00% |
| 89   | Necrozma           |    4 |   0.89% |  50.00% |
| 90   | Oricorio-Sensu     |    4 |   0.89% |   0.00% |
| 91   | Milotic            |    3 |   0.67% |  66.67% |
| 92   | Venusaur           |    3 |   0.67% |  66.67% |
| 93   | Glastrier          |    3 |   0.67% |  33.33% |
| 94   | Hattrem            |    3 |   0.67% |  33.33% |
| 95   | Torkoal            |    3 |   0.67% |  66.67% |
| 96   | Cloyster           |    3 |   0.67% |  66.67% |
| 97   | Hitmonlee          |    3 |   0.67% |  66.67% |
| 98   | Incineroar         |    3 |   0.67% |  66.67% |
| 99   | Palossand          |    3 |   0.67% |  33.33% |
| 100  | Golurk             |    3 |   0.67% |  66.67% |
| 101  | Deoxys-Defense     |    3 |   0.67% |  66.67% |
| 102  | Tentacruel         |    2 |   0.45% |  50.00% |
| 103  | Alcremie           |    2 |   0.45% | 100.00% |
| 104  | Ninetales          |    2 |   0.45% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Scovillain         |    2 |   0.45% | 100.00% |
| 106  | Houndstone         |    2 |   0.45% | 100.00% |
| 107  | Froslass           |    2 |   0.45% |  50.00% |
| 108  | Grimmsnarl         |    2 |   0.45% |  50.00% |
| 109  | Heracross          |    2 |   0.45% |  50.00% |
| 110  | Infernape          |    2 |   0.45% |  50.00% |
| 111  | Tsareena           |    2 |   0.45% |   0.00% |
| 112  | Altaria            |    2 |   0.45% |  50.00% |
| 113  | Weezing            |    2 |   0.45% |   0.00% |
| 114  | Araquanid          |    2 |   0.45% |   0.00% |
| 115  | Iron Thorns        |    2 |   0.45% |  50.00% |
| 116  | Cramorant          |    2 |   0.45% |  50.00% |
| 117  | Brambleghast       |    2 |   0.45% | 100.00% |
| 118  | Cacturne           |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 119  | Drifblim           |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 120  | Oricorio           |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 121  | Veluza             |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 122  | Abomasnow          |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 123  | Cinccino           |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 124  | Inteleon           |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 125  | Lurantis           |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 126  | Morpeko            |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 127  | Bombirdier         |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 128  | Hoopa              |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 129  | Munkidori          |    1 |   0.22% | 100.00% |
| 130  | Hariyama           |    1 |   0.22% | 100.00% |
| 131  | Sandslash-Alola    |    1 |   0.22% | 100.00% |
| 132  | Zoroark            |    1 |   0.22% | 100.00% |
| 133  | Tatsugiri          |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 134  | Copperajah         |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |
| 135  | Dudunsparce        |    1 |   0.22% | 100.00% |
| 136  | Rotom-Mow          |    1 |   0.22% |   0.00% |

#1 in usage since shifts unsurprisingly as i feel like its the consensus number one mon at this point. A funny stat is that slowbro scald is the most common move clicked in the tier, a full 30 uses above the next closest moves. Another interesting stat is that the eject button set that has popped up as late has an 87% wr with 16 uses which is pretty crazy.
:pmd/talonflame:

Has jumped up since shifts from 19th last time i did this all the way to 3rd which is one of the biggest jumps so far. This is partly due to it being the best hazard removal in the tier as it beats a lot of common rockers as well as good matchups into a problem mons like hilli and bisharp.
:pmd/lilligant-hisui:

Massive beneficiary of all the recent shifts and quickly has proven its self to be the scariest set-up mon in the tier. A crazy stat i found is that the duo of hilli and jirachi has a 100% wr with 9 uses which is 5 higher then the next undefeated duo.
:pmd/mienshao:

Absolutely abysmal win rate but its important to note that lorb sets have a 50% wr whereas choice scarf has a 15% wr with 30+ uses

This on the other hand is a good fighting type scarfer, use this thing instead people. Its also the mon that has risen most since last shifts since it was previously outclassed by gapdos.
:pmd/torterra:

Highest winrate out of all the double digit uses mons, tecnichally its tied with pert and braviary-hisui but it has double the usage.
:pmd/gallade:

Lowest winrate out of all of the double digits which is pretty surprising because this mon isn't even that bad.

Anyway in conclusion there's been around 450 games played since the shifts and i would recommend looking thru the stats by yourself if you are interested. All you need to do is copy the list of replays from below and put them into here.

658Greninja · Nov 3, 2025

Torterra has been doing surprisingly well compared to its performance in NU. I figured the higher power level and speed tiers would make it difficult for Torterra to find setup opportunities, let alone sweep. Grasses like Chesnaught and Wo-Chien also seems like a tough shells to crack without Tera Blast. Mamoswine being banned is huge for it, for obvious reasons.

LBN · Nov 3, 2025

Alright, new month, new projected shifts. I SHOULD be continuing my AO3 fanfic rn but ADHD has decided I wanted an excuse to mald in thread instead! First projected shift talk, then some mald. Because oh boy, there's stuff to mald over.

->UU
If Hippo rises I'm crashing out. If I start having to make fucking Krookodile conversations after UU stole like every check we had to the damn thing I swear to god. Losing a quality ground tank is lame as hell, so please do not. Mew though, by ALL MEANS, TAKE IT AWAY. NP sets are another corny wincon in a tier with way, WAY too many corny wincons. I think mew is very stupid and usually I'm forking multiple Pokemon over just to stop the stampede of NP sets. Hazard lead sets are whatever and pivot spikes sets are pretty bad. UU can you take gastrodon too thanks, I want my removal to feel good again.

NU/NUBL -> RU
Well we, as expected, are projected to reach into NUBL and NU for some stuff to fill in from Gapdos/Mamo/Gyara/Volcanion purge. And this roster is mostly expected, except Deo-d. Though, I do think Deo-D is underrated. Spikes sets are neat and its a decent soft check to a good number of stuff. Twave is a broken move and cosmic power sets can 1v1 suicune so thats nice. Not the worst one on this list that goes to Politoed, but definitely an unexpected one. How this rose and not Cress hurts my soul a little but Deo-D is quite nice. I mentioned PZ/Shao/Loom/Suicune above so no comments there, and Ribombee is webs picking up in viability with Gapdos's departure, no huge surprise there.

-> NU
Chansey is overdue we have Blissey next. Umbreon... HOW? HOW IS THIS THING 3% usage. omfg. Umbreon is an absolute bastard man how is this mon 3% usage rn. Literally half of Deo-D and this mon is an A rank COMFORTABLY. HOWWWW?? Idc what we gotta do, but we gotta get this thing not to drop bro. Cuz there's just no way.

Now.. for the bitching! This is where I mention brokens, the Pokemon that make me want to drag my skull through metal wiring before dealing with them.

H-Lilligant is fucking stupid man. If I have to see one more Talonflame + Scarf Gengar team I swear to fucking god. You just don't answer this thing. Grass/Fighting/Ice hits pmuch the entire tier neutrally, its power is bullshit and its grass stab is not contact assuming your frontal lobe functions in full capacity and uses petal blizzard. Tera Blast psychic sets are also bullshit, gee what a surprise another busted mon using Tera Blast who coulda seen this coming! Faster scarfers besides gengar are like, Infernape and Munkidori. Munkidori is a bargain bin Food4Less Gengar and Infernape is painfully not good at actually killing H-Lilli cuz of tera. Suicune on the other hand is just stupid. I think a well-played suicune should just straight up win every game its in without question. In a vacuum, you got alot of options to stop it. Empoleon w Roar/Flip turn + encore support can do it, Poison Heal Loom can apply pressure nicely assuming no ice beam, Vaporeon can do the same flip turn thing, A-Muk can pmuch haze stall it forever. But in practice its surprisingly easy to lose to an endgame suicune set. You gotta go very out of your way to deal w suicune, and its just not healthy despite how much I want it to be fine.

Aand now for PZ. This one I'm in the minority for, but Porygon-Z and by extension, Tera Blast, is fucking stupid. PZ being able to play Tera Type memes and just pick and choose what its gonna do with zero way to tell off preview is why VGC has open team sheet. Is it Tera Fairy? Tera Ground? What about Fighting? Is it agility recover, NP recover or maybe Agility + NP? Will my Empoleon be able to handle this or will it explode. What about my blissey, will it just drop to a TBlast fighting? This thing is just dumb to fight, and its synergy with Mienshao or any physical pivot is degenerate. Really, this mon is only flying below the radar because of the two bastards above. But I wouldn't act on PZ. Because frankly, Tera blast is the culprit here. And it's been a driving force behind a large portion of our bans thus far. But that's a yap session for another time I'd say.

MrAldo · Nov 4, 2025

Tbh, many of the setup sweepers are just very mickey in general, I think there are way too many.

Think the tier is still very dooky, and honestly no idea it could be fixed without banning like the equivalent of like 8 mons but thats definitely not practical. HO is too good, even without tera some lines just feel too much of a drag, like how something maushold can you eliminate hazard progress by clicking a setup and how victory dance is just absolutely dumb move. On this I am asking for some perspective on this matter, cause I feel picking up your poison in this tier feels really damn notorious. Is hjkjk style of approaching the tier the optimal way of doing it?!?!

Overall from someone that doesnt really play this tier too often it just feels horrible to play, but prepping on it is just absurdly worse. Consider how UU and OU just keep taking defensive mons, and there are like 12 real threats on the builder right now it is just way too hard to enjoy the tier. There is certainly consistency cause the same players keep doing good but overall there is that impending sense of dread of the back of my head with just how HO just has so many variations like having fun covering that with the little defensive staples left.

So I like I guess this comment is trying to get a perspective on how to approach this tier without the defeatist mentality, or to see if this sentiment is shared to some extent and see what people do to actually play this. Like people just accept that something is just going to win? Never felt so defeated in so many cases in the builder before.

Enough of tera blast, that ship sailed a while ago. Guess we gotta keep cutting some heads. Nothing else to add trend wait, just many double fighter cores with lilligant-h and more a good reason

Metagame RU Metagame Discussion Thread [October 2025 Shifts! Gyarados and Volcanion Quickbanned, Mamoswine Banned] [#27]

Elec-ant1234

I LOVE 236LP I LOVE SUPERMAN PUNCH I LOVE MARISSA

Lyra

Pick your Poison babe, I'm Poison either way

zause

Sigma Gamer

TheFranklin

EviGaro

LBN

lighthouses

Inordinary

Ming549

heat ran

Umbra Soul

Cielau

Memories of us

MrAldo

Hey

LBN

colorednaem

658Greninja

LBN

MrAldo

Hey