Metagame Fortemons

[Monsieur23]

No as they are coded as a value in their accuracy stat, unlike something like Thunder under rain that is an additional effect that overwrites its original accuracy allowing it to be passed as a forte.

Oh cool, so Thunder/Blizzard as abilities would make everything 101% accuracy under their respective weathers? I’ll play around with that.

Following on from that, if you used Solarbeam as your ability, would all two-turn moves become one-turn under Sun?

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Solar Beam and all two-turn moves are restricted.
I don't think they even work properly as Fortes.

 

[KaenSoul]

Survey results are out, want to get them out as quickly as possible, so have a kinda unorganized collection of Pie Charts, maybe later we can discuss them. But for now Quaquaval, Landorus-I and Raging Bolt are now banned.
Depending on how the discussion goes we may ban a few more things.

The duck needs no introduction, he is everywhere and basically has a monopoly on hazard control, it gets out of control too easily thanks to high BP stabs, Moxie and Rapid Spin forte.

Lando does the same it always does, too much damage and difficult to check, basically kills anything slower than it, we have too many things to account for in this format and one less is welcome, specially when is one that didn't even bother with the mechanics of the format.

Best user of Volt Switch forte thanks to stab Draco Meteor and priority while having crazy stats, on top of having the option of Rising Voltage to become one of the best wallbreakers ever, both sets are basically impossible to check.
dhelmise

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Survey results are out, want to get them out as quickly as possible, so have a kinda unorganized collection of Pie Charts, maybe later we can discuss them. But for now Quaquaval, Landorus-I and Raging Bolt are now banned.
Depending on how the discussion goes we may ban a few more things.

The duck needs no introduction, he is everywhere and basically has a monopoly on hazard control, it gets out of control too easily thanks to high BP stabs, Moxie and Rapid Spin forte.

Lando does the same it always does, too much damage and difficult to check, basically kills anything slower than it, we have too many things to account for in this format and one less is welcome, specially when is one that didn't even bother with the mechanics of the format.

Best user of Volt Switch forte thanks to stab Draco Meteor and priority while having crazy stats, on top of having the option of Rising Voltage to become one of the best wallbreakers ever, both sets are basically impossible to check.
dhelmise

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Blessed day, the ducks reign is over. Can't wait to see what the new meta will look like.

 

[TheKibHolper]

Hello!

Is this set legal? Or does it even work?

Lucario @ Circle Throw
Ability: Steadfast
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance

Basically if yes, it can spam priority to just keep forcing switches.

Answered below. This does not works.

You can use prankster riolu with copycat, but if you use copycat on a move that had the circle throw effect, if will fail, so you must use substitute or protect

 

[Dawn's Piplup]

Riolu is basically a "guess the move I'm gonna click, and if you guess wrong you'll be phased.", which is what makes it uncompetitive. Even dark types aren't really safe, as you can predict the switch, go for sub and then just click drain punch for decent chip. Here is the set with replays:

Riolu @ circlethrow
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Copycat
- Protect
- Substitute
- Drain Punch

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2482142254
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2482070097
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2482061999
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2481570551

Another interesting mon that makes good use of phasing is Milotic. It can elevate the negative priority to 0 with Rest/talk, while making good use of its Marvel Scale buff, in addition to getting a double switch with Flip Turn. Here's a set that worked for me so far:

Milotic @ dragontail
Ability: Marvel Scale
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Flip Turn
- Alluring Voice

Hardly needs exp. Can phase behind subs, or help you gain massive momentum with Flip Turn.

 

[sqoiche]

Riolu is incredibly uncompetitive. I don't know how often bans or restrictions happen here but it's probably the only mon that needs adjusting.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Now that Raging Bolt has been banned, it is quite obvious that its broken replacement will be Regieleki, aka Raging Volt.

Because nobody runs Choice Scarf in this metagame, Regieleki can afford to run a +Atk or +SpA nature, only needing 96 speed EVs to outspeed max speed +SpA nature Deoxys-Speed (you could EV it more if you want to beat other Regielekis or faster Deoxys-Speeds), with 412 EVs to spare. With Quaquaval out of the picture, Regieleki can freely spam Extreme Speed on the majority of remaining sweepers without much fear of Upper Hand. Paired with Giga Impact/Hyper Beam, Regieleki becomes a monster that can only be reliably walled by Palossand and Golurk.

252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragapult: 111-131 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Regieleki Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 106-125 (29.3 - 34.6%) -- 7.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 248+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 118-141 (29.9 - 35.7%) -- 35.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Regieleki Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 138-163 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 192-226 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 141-166 (34.9 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
160 Atk Regieleki Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 51-60 (14.1 - 16.6%) -- possible 7HKO

You get the point. I believe Regieleki is broken because it outputs far too much damage and provides extremely free tempo and utility (Rapid Spin), as well as requiring you to use extremely niche Pokemon to fully counter because it cannot be outsped.

However, there's a problem if the tier simply bans Regieleki or restricts Volt Switch without any other tiering action: the lack of good spinners.

This metagame has already banned 4 spinners: Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Terapagos, and Quaquaval. Almost every remaining Rapid Spinner sucks besides Regieleki and Excadrill, whether it be having a terrible offensive typing (Tsareena), a terrible defensive typing (Coalossal, Cryogonal), or being too slow and too frail (Hitmons, Tatsugiri, etc). If Regieleki is banned or Volt Switch is restricted (Regieleki cannot spam Giga Impact or Hyper Beam or somewhat weak Extreme Speeds or Rapid Spin and pivot out or chip down Ground Pokemon easily), there will be effectively 5 spinners banned from Fortemons, with Excadrill being the only viable one left.

Excadrill itself has many flaws as well: it takes much more damage from Alomomola than Quaquaval (and can't hit it as hard), lacks Moxie (weaker sweeping), cannot hit Skarmory or Corviknight with either of its STABs (free walling), lacks priority, and lacks utility options (Roost). If Regieleki is banned or Volt Switch is restricted, hazard spam teams will overtake this metagame because of how exploitable and predictable Excadrill is and the fact that nobody uses Heavy-Duty Boots.

Therefore, I believe that the council should stop fretting about preserving metagame identity and instead restrict Volt Switch and restrict Rapid Spin to at least free both Great Tusk and Terapagos.

 

[Lectrys]

I've played a lot with Regieleki, and I've found that Eleki has at least one more wall than InkyDarkBird is mentioning: Steel/Dragon-types. I know InkyDarkBird doesn't like Dialga-O in this meta very much, despite me finding that Dialga-O lacks longevity, so I'll give the Goodra-H calcs:

252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Goodra-Hisui: 61-72 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Regieleki Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Goodra-Hisui: 53-62 (17.6 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO
160 Atk Regieleki Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Goodra-Hisui: 34-40 (11.2 - 13.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

...and given that my favourite Forte on Goodra-H is Absorb, Regieleki isn't breaking Goodra-H anytime soon.

I've also found that those pesky mons Regieleki can only 3HKO, such as Dragapult and Excadrill, generally outlast Regieleki (and its trimmed-down switch-ins) in endgame brawls.

As a result, I think Regieleki is not ban-worthy. In addition, Eleki has no coverage moves for Excadrill, and Acrobatics vs. Ancient Power is a gamble on how few Ground-types you expect to see in teams with Ghost-types.

 

[InkyDarkBird]

252+ SpA Transistor Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Goodra-Hisui: 61-72 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ SpA Regieleki Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Goodra-Hisui: 53-62 (17.6 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO
160 Atk Regieleki Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Goodra-Hisui: 34-40 (11.2 - 13.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever

...and given that my favourite Forte on Goodra-H is Absorb, Regieleki isn't breaking Goodra-H anytime soon.

You've missed my point. My point is that there are no viable Pokemon that fully deny Regieleki the ability to switch out. That Goodra-Hisui you pivoted in to deal with Regieleki? That's just getting stomped by an incoming Excadrill, Iron Valiant, Ting-Lu, Gallade, or maybe even a Primarina using Psychic Noise. Furthermore, you only listed 1 Pokemon, Goodra-Hisui, that can actually tank more than 3 hits of whatever Regieleki uses, and it isn't even used that often. Every other resist/immunity is near unviable (Golurk, Rhyperior), too frail (Excadrill, Trevenant, Dragapult), or a broken Uber (Dialga-O).

I've also found that those pesky mons Regieleki can only 3HKO, such as Dragapult and Excadrill, generally outlast Regieleki (and its trimmed-down switch-ins) in endgame brawls.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2484512946?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2483154283
Both physical Dragapult and Excadrill lack the proper damage output to deal with Skarmory. In both of the games shown, Regieleki lives to the very end.

As a result, I think Regieleki is not ban-worthy. In addition, Eleki has no coverage moves for Excadrill, and Acrobatics vs. Ancient Power is a gamble on how few Ground-types you expect to see in teams with Ghost-types.

When Regieleki can 3HKO Excadrill and most other Pokemon, I don't think it needs to use Ancient Power nor Acrobatics when they don't even hit many Pokemon that Regieleki already hits.

 

[Lectrys]

When Regieleki can 3HKO Excadrill and most other Pokemon, I don't think it needs to use Ancient Power nor Acrobatics when they don't even hit many Pokemon that Regieleki already hits.

Acrobatics and Ancient Power both have one thing in common that Regieleki craves: guaranteed damage, so guaranteed pivoting. I've seen too many opponents pivot Ghosts and Grounds around Regieleki to try to stall it for consecutive turns (and sometimes succeed). And those times that Dragapult survives to the late game and doesn't even get punished that badly for predicting wrong...

 

[InkyDarkBird]

Acrobatics and Ancient Power both have one thing in common that Regieleki craves: guaranteed damage, so guaranteed pivoting. I've seen too many opponents pivot Ghosts and Grounds around Regieleki to try to stall it for consecutive turns (and sometimes succeed). And those times that Dragapult survives to the late game and doesn't even get punished that badly for predicting wrong...

I'm really not seeing how stalling out Regieleki for consecutive turns is working out when it ultimately is extremely risky. Dragapult taking 40% from Thunderbolt and maybe even paralysis if the Regieleki is using Discharge for guessing wrong is a pretty bad punishment when it is one of the best sweepers/status spreaders in this metagame and you want it to be healthy. I'd rather go into a stalling prediction war or simply switch out Regieleki in a favorable matchup (such as Skarmory vs Excadrill) instead of gutting its damage output by nearly 75% the majority of the time.