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Metagame SV NFE Metagame Discussion - Tiering Survey Results @ Post #168

I dont have much to say so I will try to keep it brief, but CB Piloswine is absolutely too much for the tier. It simply does too much damage while its switch-ins either can't come in reliably or are otherwise passive and exploitable or otherwise can't repeatedly switch in.
 
Have been collecting some thoughts on the meta, and even if it's still UMPL, I feel like sharing some quick thoughts since I may not care after this tour is gone.

Piloswine always feels around broken or playable enough for me. From the teambuilding aspect, it's an absolute pain to handle. It always feels ass to use its checks and counters, but in-game, it feels doable as most teams built their teams in a way where Piloswine can't aggressively switch in and tends to have a mix of two mons that switch in based on base stat + typing, or bring one + two mons that each resist its stab while creating meaningful progress. So it always makes me wonder, is Piloswine itself broken, or is it taking advantage of overtuned and centralized faults in the meta? And what I've been leaning into is that Piloswine isn't too much and can be a healthy thing for the meta. Obviously, Piloswine is kinda of lame for punishing playstyles such as setup reliance offense(my favorite type of playstyle), but you could argue that it's a good thing, it prevents other playstyles from being overtuned, and it keeps other things to be more centralizing since Piloswine itself isn't that spammed much in teams.

So it comes down to taking advantage of the meta's faults, which makes more sense. Now what are these "faults" you ask? In my mind, it's these aspects that define or have to be respected in certain parts of the meta, which impacts building, and what are good teams or not.

:Koffing: aka Ngas Tspikes
T-spikes are either insanely overtuned or absolute garbage if the opponent team brings a poison type that outlasts them, nothing in between. Every t-spikes besides maybe Glimmet(but even then has healthy counterplay in the long term) has a much healthier way to play against, while Koffing is basically bringing a poison type or die, since Koffing teams are built in mind to outlast or restrict counterplay vs every playstyle. There is also everyone besides Ivysaur(and even then, it is questionable) is mediocre to use, so that if you aren't forced to slot a poison type for Koffing only, there would be easier counterplay not only on Piloswine, but other pokemon like fire/fighting mons. Piloswine takes absolute advantage of this aspect of the meta, as Piloswine counters are all weak to tspikes.

There have been teams without poison types that can win that are often designed to neglect the long-lasting aspect, and built to overwhelm, but those are only good for certain Koffing teams, and more defensively structured Koffing teams can destroy those teams.

If you're gonna suspect or ban this, it's obviously not gonna be t-spikes, and by smogon preferences, it's most likely gonna be koffing itself than ngas. For what it's worth, it's borderline as well, but I think koffing t-spikes is objectively unhealthy and makes the tier feel so restrictive.

:Tinkatuff:
This is a minor one, as the meta has been less mandatory on using Tinkatuff(see mine and pandadoux's usage on tinkatuff), but I think how it centralizes hazard control, invalidates hattrem and defoggers besides fletchinder(Which is still unfavoured vs tinkatuff due to para + knock off), it also helps Piloswine, as the options against Tinkatuff + Piloswine require two or more mons to handle against this core, as both of them have insane synergy with each other. I do think this isn't that big a problem due to Tinkatuff falling off, but her existence in the meta will always have an impact on the meta; you just cannot neglect it. Piloswine will always be buffed by her centralization.

There are probably more things that I may forget, but my point is that external factors make Piloswine too much for me, instead of the Pokémon itself. Is the meta volatile though? Idk really. Is the teambuilding aspect so restrictive that it makes building the tier more fishy? Most definitely yes IMO, and it's what makes the tier such a chore to play and build, really.
 
Post-UMPL teamdump as usual

Week 1 vs sleid (W)
:eelektrik::fraxure::frogadier::ivysaur::monferno::tinkatuff:
Another common robbery against sleid, game was cool and felt like i played well but got lucky and dodged a fire blast, for some reason all of my tour games vs sleid are like this lately lol so sorry again for this even tho it did not matter for either of our team in the end. Went for a kind of Offense because i felt like trying Fraxure and this mon is underrated asf

Week 2 vs Terracotta (W)
:drakloak::fletchinder::ivysaur::piloswine::seadra::sliggoo-hisui:
Terracotta was pretty recent to the tier so i just felt like bringing something really solid which paid off coz it felt like i was in control the whole game and my MU was gold

Week 3 vs Kingler (L)
:drakloak::eelektrik::fraxure::piloswine::stunky::thwackey:
I expected Offense but not this kind of offense and ended up with a pretty shitty MU imo, i felt like i played well and i could have won in the end if i went eel then drakloak but i had to gamble between shed skin & moxie and lost

Week 4 vs Shing G1 (L)
:dunsparce::hattrem::koffing::krokorok::quilladin::raboot:
This is where i got super busy with college and couldn't prep at all, i just brought a random team i built week 1 that i didn't test against shing in earlier weeks, felt like i played this game super bad but i did a mental reset for g2

Week 4 vs Shing G2 (W)
Week 4 vs Shing G3 (L)
:drakloak::fraxure::glimmet::monferno::morgrem::scraggy:
In tests Shing was super weak to my kind of Offense so i felt like bringing this team twice, g2 is just a 6-0 Scraggy like he just didn't expect this ig which is fair i don't feel like i'm particularly someone who brings offense a lot prior to this tour.
G3 was a lot closer, Monferno missing Focus Blast 3 times cost me the game because otherwise i won and it also cost us our qualification to playoffs since we would have won the win against Ambers lol but that's mon we got lucked and we also lucked other people

Week 5 vs Horii (L)
:duosion::ivysaur::krokorok::mareanie::piloswine::quaxwell:
That's another week where i really didn't have time to prep at all and our schedule availability was so awful the only time we were both available was like Monday in the afternoon lmao. As i said i didn't really prep i just picked a team i built Week 1 i had success with but my MU was pretty bad and i choked the endgame

Week 6 vs 5Dots (W)
:dusclops::fletchinder::girafarig::piloswine::quilladin::scraggy:
I was finally able to find time for this tour again and to prep, i feel like it paid off and i played fine, game was closer than it should have been imo but this win was absolutely massive because we were down 2-5 and one single lose would put us out of contention for playoffs instantly so that was the biggest clutch i've done for a team in any teamtour i think

Week 7 vs Dragonillis G1 (W)
:fletchinder::glimmet::scraggy::seadra::sliggoo-hisui::thwackey:
Last week and we needed to win the week to have a chance to get into playoffs so i had to tryhard asf both the prep and ingame, which i feel like really paid off, both of my MUs were really good and i feel like the i didn't play a game that well for a really long time so it was really refreshing

Week 7 vs Dragonillis G2 (W)
:duosion::fletchinder::piloswine::quaxwell::servine::stunky:
Same as above i felt like i played super well and the prep was good

Teams i didn't get to play
:drakloak::fraxure::gabite::glimmet::scraggy::wartortle:
This one was the team i planned to bring in case it went to g3 vs Dragonillis, pretty dumb HO with Gabite coz i felt like Drago was really weak to it
:dunsparce::growlithe-hisui::hattrem::koffing::krokorok::thwackey:
Surprisingly i had a lot of success with this team in tests, almost brought this one vs Horii which i feel like would have been way better than the one i brought but yeah growlithe actually works well
:chinchou::drakloak::dunsparce::fletchinder::hattrem::stunky:
This one is def sus like i don't think it's good but it's there ig

My opinion on the tier is that it's fun, a lot more diversed than before which is great but also still feels like nothing is broken or like we can't handle everything which is also great, TSpikes is annoying asf but whatever, Pilo Band is completely fine with me like yeah it's good at breaking but it's hard to put on the field imo since u need Choice Band to break, also i'm glad i was able to make Offense work again but Screens Offense seems like it has the potential to become completely broken.
 
Metagame feels the best it's been in a while. The advent of Seadra fixes a lot of my prior issues with the tier, while opening up new routes for builder expression due to the few unique disadvantages Seadra has in comparison to Quax. Bandpilo is still slightly absurd and Seadra is kind of a fake check if you're not also running Fletch or Thwackey/Servine. That said, it's not without its issues due to its lesser ability to hard into Tink, as well as its lack of bulk really making a difference especially on neutral hits from random stuff like Draco, Psychic, and EQ/HHP. Seadra is enough of a stopgap though, and whoever beats who kind of just comes down to better play. Bandpilo wins if you can get rocks up and make aggressive doubles in order to constantly pressure the opposing team, Seadra wins if it's able to carefully manage its resources and call out that aggression.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nfe-2476282204-ejb2bfwiflsovg9w16vabvs9lvp3qappw

Scraggy is unfun tho I don't like that guy. Feels like a matchup fish that's not amazing into certain staples (ivysaur, lorb thwackey, pignite-ish), it kind of pops off more than any singular mon ought to if the opponent doesn't have great counterplay. Taunt shuts down disruption from more passive staples like Tink, Koffing, Encore Quax, and Dunsparce (although tbf sparce doesn't want to stay in anyways else eat a nasty hjk/cc) meanwhile Shed Skin means that setting a layer of tspikes or otherwise paralyzing it with Hattrem or Drakloak the turn it tries to set up is not a very consistently viable means either. As of now, I don't think Scraggy is quite at a level where action should be taken, but if anything this is the mon to keep an eye on.
 
Another tiering survey! There has been talk of people enjoying the metagame, and some who believe there are still some problematic pieces. Well, now is your time to let the council know what your thoughts are! Please take this survey so we can continue to make this tier the best it can be!
 
Making another post for the stuff I forgot in my previous post

Scraggy :scraggy: !!!
I don't like this mon. Scraggy should've been on this survey. It's an unfun matchup fish with shed skin allowing it to get out of jail for free with good rng against status-reliant pokemon such as Koffing (especially tspikes which are an important component of checking offense in this tier) and Drakloak. I'd like to reiterate the part about it being a matchup fish again, since I believe that Scraggy's presence really limits team diversity. You're pidgeonholed into using the same options such as Fletchinder, Ivysaur, and Pignite (dire) in order to properly dispatch it. While it can be argued that these things are good anyways and that Scraggy just punishes bad teams, I think it's important to point out that the teams that Scraggy punishes have their own merits into the "good stuff" and create a positive amount of team structure diversity that is conducive to a fun and healthy metagame.

Piloswine :piloswine: !!!
Your honour my client is INNOCENT. Due to the myriad of checks that exist - Quaxwell, Seadra, Fletchinder, Dunsparce, Eelektrik, and Dusclops - Piloswine rarely finds opportunities where it is truly able to run rampant. Particularly there are cases where Seadra and Fletchinder are run side-by-side, making it particuarly annoying for Piloswine to break through. The wonder of Piloswine however is that it is capable of breaking such cores, but that it demands precise positioning, setting of hazards, and use of knock off in order to apply pressure on Piloswine's checks. Even for Choice Band Piloswine, the existence of Seadra means that one must be careful so as not to overly cede momentum to the opposing player. Furthermore, should Piloswine be banned, we would lose an important method of checking offense in this tier. Ice Shard is the great equalizer for Balance and BO, providing a means with which to revenge chipped offensive threats, and particularly the pesky dragon-types that make a living using bulky waters as setup opportunity. I think we would be losing a valuable part of our tier should Piloswine leave; I rest my case.

UMFL teamdump
CB Pilo Thwack Quax
:piloswine: :tinkatuff: :quaxwell: :thwackey: :drakloak: :koffing:
Smack Down is 100% accurate ohkos Fletchinder if it's boots. No sense in running a higher bp rock move if you're never clicking that move vs anything else
Monkey Frog Hstack
:thwackey: :frogadier: :drakloak: :koffing: :tinkatuff: :quaxwell:
Probably has a cbpilo problem
Screens Revised
:morgrem: :scraggy: :gabite: :wartortle: :girafarig: :raboot:
Kind of outdated probably, Drakglim HO probably completely outclasses morgrem screens
Scraggyslop
:scraggy: :ivysaur: :tinkatuff: :piloswine: :quaxwell: :drakloak:
Also vaguely has a cbpilo problem probably
Paraspam CBpilo
:tinkatuff: :piloswine: :drakloak: :ivysaur: :seadra: :hattrem:
This is basically a Zcarlett team from week 1 of UMPL except I swapped out Krok for a cbpilo and changed up the sets slightly
 
as much as I wanted to put dusclops on the other thoughts option thanks almost entirely to mirbro, I resisted. I support a piloswine ban its super super centralising and makes games way too easy to run away with. Some other miscellaneous thoughts on stuff that detracts from my enjoyment:
- Thwackey: not broken exactly, but really way to strong, if you aren't running like ivysaur or fletchinder then its going to sweep you quite easily sweep you and it always forces process, its jsut a really difficult mon to check reliably and shuts down a lot of shit. I dont think its broken really, but its something I wanna watch.
- Paralysis: whether twave, body slam or glare, this tier is infected with para and its really uninteractive a lot of the time, I despise para is general so it causes a lot of discontent with certain matches and teams and its very easy to run away with the game with a few free paras.
- Drakloak: not broken by any means but imo quite easily one of the best mons in the tier, soft checks a lot of mons and forces process on hazard stack, can go specs and be a stupid fast stupid strong mon, ddance is a thing allegedly, its really versatile whilst being arguably the best spinblocker in a tier where hazard stack is absolutely insane.
to conclude these short thoughts here's quite literally the only nfe team I built myself that isn't troll in some way: https://pokepast.es/dc540b9f244559d3
 
Quick Metagame thoughts, may drop UMPL squads later

:piloswine:
CB Pilo is extremely unhealthy in the builder. While we do have a myriad of mons that can deal with Pilo on paper none of them are great in practice. Pretty much every answer that Piloswine has is extremely passive and prone to getting chipped or simply not taking one of its stabs super well. This leaves you either the options of running a shaky defensive core into PIlo or turtling up and running multiple, usually passive Piloswine checks. Piloswine feels absolutely ABYSMAL into defensive hazard stack teams that can easily slot multiple passive blobs like Quaxwell and Dusclops while bulky offense structures that only have so many team slots to allot to defensive pieces that don't contribute much offensive. Sure, your Quaxwell can handle CB Pilo, but can it handle CB Pilo with a Fire type that forces it to switch in every time? Can it deal with CB Pilo if Sliggoo or Drakloak switches into it every time? Can it handle CB PIlo if Spikes or T Spikes are up in addition to rocks? Can it handle CB Pilo if it crits once? The answer to all of these is no, and while Quaxwell is particularly vulnerable in this regard, it is by far the most splashable of the "Pilo Answers" and none of the others are much better. If the only way to reliably answer the tiers most prevalent breaker is to either run super offensive teams that move too fast to care or completely turtle up in the builder so you can stack multiple answers while Bulky Offense is left completely stranded, that is not a sign of a Pokemon having a healthy dynamic.

:koffing: :frogadier: :glimmet: :mareanie:
It is near impossible to make a good team that can deal with the entire meta without a grounded poison and any time you load a team without one you are almost certainly matchup fishing, intentionally or not. The core issue is that there are too few grounded poisons and removal options compared to how good the setters are. Koffing being so splashable is both a blessing and a curse, as while it is one of the best options to deal with Toxic Spikes, it further propagates the issue by encouraging more teams to run it. Banning it would make T Spikes less common, but also mean it's harder to deal with Glimmet & Frog teams in the builder, as you have one less reliable option and the only remaining grounded poison that can fit onto a lot of teams is Ivysaur. I think if you are to take action here, you need to ban Toxic Spikes altogether as otherwise the setters that are currently niche become more obnoxious.
 
"How do you feel about Piloswine in the current meta?"
Very doable in the current meta, as it struggles to break through the cores between Quaxwell, Dusclops, and Dunsparce, often a core between two of the mons there to deny meaningful progress from it. But as a side effect, it enforces teams to bring a core with those, which are also really good against a lot of playstyles and big threats, and therefore centralizes the meta as a side effect. And since all of those mons share the same problems of not being able to create offensive progress due to their lack of damage output, it slows the entire meta as the core tends to lean into being as bulky as possible. This makes me believe the average turns should be expected to be around 50, but I can easily see 80-90 turns being average at the top level.
Piloswine alone isn't bad in the gameplay, but how it affects the metagame has made it harder for me to be encouraged to use more offensive variations. It's not like the balance is broken, but I think Piloswine hurts Offense more than Defensive teams, as more offensive variations tend to lose against Piloswine moreover than the other way.

"How do you feel about Toxic Spikes in the current meta?"
T-spikes are fine overall, but Piloswine and some degree of Tinkatuff invalidating Defog and Hattrem make t-spikes a volatile option that can really shift the metagame. Koffing / Ngas is just too overtuned, though, so I'd like Koffing or ngas to be banned to buff more offensive teams that don't need to rely on poison types that lack meaningful progress either way, aka most of them.

"How much do you currently enjoy the SV NFE metagame?"
4/10 - Much better than all the previous metagame development in terms of balance, but it's so difficult to make progress with Offense in the way I like it. I'd like to see changes, but not sure what I want really.

Making another post for the stuff I forgot in my previous post

Scraggy :scraggy: !!!
I don't like this mon. Scraggy should've been on this survey. It's an unfun matchup fish with shed skin allowing it to get out of jail for free with good rng against status-reliant pokemon such as Koffing (especially tspikes which are an important component of checking offense in this tier) and Drakloak. I'd like to reiterate the part about it being a matchup fish again, since I believe that Scraggy's presence really limits team diversity. You're pidgeonholed into using the same options such as Fletchinder, Ivysaur, and Pignite (dire) in order to properly dispatch it. While it can be argued that these things are good anyways and that Scraggy just punishes bad teams, I think it's important to point out that the teams that Scraggy punishes have their own merits into the "good stuff" and create a positive amount of team structure diversity that is conducive to a fun and healthy metagame.

Had to comment on this one, and IMO it's a byproduct of how the meta is shaped right now. I'd argue that having these attributes is nice to have as a showcase of problems of things like para and tspikes, and how teams are operated in the tier by factors like those. Because Scraggy can be easily solved by bringing fairy moves, or bringing teams that should overwhelm it. Scraggy is honestly a MU fish that shouldn't really be good i my eyes, but since people tend to love spamming the same sets and trying to build teams that's designed to overwhelm is insanely hard, it gets more mileage out of it. For me, if Scraggy was ever in consideration, then it comes down to the meta itself, since Scraggy counterplay should definitely have a lot more than what you mentioned.
 
How much do you currently enjoy the SV NFE metagame? 5/10

I've been playing SV since the start of the generation and it's been a series of highs and very low lows. I think we're in a low position right now and I can't say I've been having much fun. Most of my explanation will be in the specific pokemon section and competitive section but I think I'm only having fun if I roll a matchup that isn't completely skewed against me. But there's quite a few things that deter me from enjoying the tier right now and I'm not particularly going to go out of my way to play currently until something changes.

How competitive do I find SV NFE right now? 4/10

UMPL didn't go too well for me. Seasonal went well but for PL, I went 1-2 and after my second loss, I essentially didn't want to play for the rest of the tour because teambuilding is such a fucking chore in this tier and it's not fun to build at all. You have to dedicate yourself to two Pilo checks, make sure a mon has a ground immunity, use a grounded poison, force removal that's either going to be shit if you face a hazard stack with a ghost or slot Linda every time. There's like no deviation in the builder and no other NFE tier across the gens feels this bad. It's the lack of options and the cut moves that are responsible at the end of the day but it's just annoying regardless. The mu fish isn't that crazy but I have no confidence in the builder say in a situation where I decide to use Quaxwell as my sole spinner and I face Dusclops spikes, then those shits are staying up at all times. Or I decide that my team can't slot a grounded poison, then I face tspikes. Just kills my motivation to build and I came into PL being pretty motivated and then as time went on, I just didn't even want to play.

:piloswine:Piloswine:piloswine:

My name on the NFE discord has been "Pan Biloswine" for quite a while know so you will already know my initial thoughts on this mon. Once Misdreavus left, Piloswine started chokeholding this tier and made Choice Band fucking egregious to deal with. No one sees the issue that maybe spamming Quax+Linda to deal with it is unhealthy. Now before anyone says anything, that core isn't just used for Pilo but for the hazard meta (which is its own issue) but people say it's easy to deal with. It really isn't. Its checks are shaky at best and aren't checks at all if they get knocked. They're splashable and easy to fit on teams sure (Seadra, Dunsparce, Eelektrik, Quaxwell etc) but people act like Piloswine is a one man army that lacks teammates that won't be able to support it properly, like Ivysaur checks 3/4 mons I placed in the parentheses and knocks all of them. I'll admit non-banded sets are perfectly healthy and I appreciate them in this tier but Band is just braindead imo and you can never tell until you think your Quaxwell is safe and then you're 2HKOd after rocks.

:koffing:Toxic Spikes:glimmet:

Thing is, this is pretty tough to explain overall. Like Toxic Spikes basically facilitate a grounded poison on a team and while Ivysaur is one of the best mons in the tier and the Toxic Spikers bar Frog are poison types anyway, it doesn't feel broken per se. It's just the lack of solid removal options this tier has to offer that makes them a pain to deal with and it sadly contributes to a lot of the problems the format is facing right now. Toxic Spikes are more a symptom than the actual problem.

Other things not mentioned on the survey

:dusclops:Dusclops:dusclops:

I am unaware of the general consensus of Dusclops right now but I feel like the power level of the tier really struggles to deal with this mon. It's always been bulky sure and in previous generations, Misdreavus was around + tiers like SM had Z moves and ORAS/SS had physical attackers that didn't really care about Dusclops (Gurdurr/Machoke to name the main guys). Again, if the hazards issue wasn't as profound as it is, Dusclops would be fine but it's essentially Gliscor-esque in a way that it doesn't die easily and always seems to stay around for as long as possible thanks to Rest, the reliability of spamming Night Shade in a tier where the average HP stat is not even 90, and then burning things to rack up even more residual damage. This is just expressing my general thoughts on the mon, not pushing for a ban or anything since people are adapting to it with Taunt but that still doesn't really solve the problem of the fact it's outputting comparable damage as the mons that are attacking it thanks to Night Shade.

:frogadier:Spikes:quilladin:

Hazard stack in NFE has always been profound across every generation. Prior to the fairy gens, DPP's spikes metagame doesn't really exist because you're just trying to kill shit as fast as possible so it really starts in BW when you see mons like Ferroseed and Roselia getting them up and Spin is the only way out, that tier has Misdreavus and other ghosts yet spikes are fine. From ORAS to SS (won't speak much on SS), Defog is in the picture and Spikes are simply not problematic in those tiers. SV doesn't have the traditional spikers of old like the aforementioned grasses but lacks expanded Defog distribution, really only relying on Linda, and Rufflet for the cultured ones like myself. We've been relying on Quaxwell Spin for a good chunk of the gen and we've had a range of players calling Quaxwell bad because it simply can't do its job properly. While I do agree Quaxwell sucks as a spinner, I could never agree with its general viability being bad because it's a bulky water with recovery and has pivoting. It may be presumptuous to say this but I believe Spikes and "hazard stacking" have the biggest impact on the builder and every root problem someone has with this tier whether it's Piloswine or Dusclops or whatever, has Spikes at the beginning.

Now, idk what issue we tackle first. I say Piloswine if anything then go from there. No other breaker is even on the level as it and I believe wholeheartedly that teambuilding pressure will be alleviated a good amount with it gone in the tier. Or we tier around Piloswine and tackle hazards. One of the two has to be sacrificed or we're gonna be in a deadlock for the foreseeable future.
 
I don't have a giant post, but I supported action on Piloswine. If it shows up in your opponent's preview, it immediately becomes the #1 Pokemon you have to consider unless you have one of three responses, and even then, predicting its set wrong can result in that Pokemon failing to properly check it. I don't think it's by any means as oppressive as other things have been in the past, but I think the tier is meaningfully worse hosting it.

I did not express much concern about TSpikes. They are present in the metagame, but with good absorbers that can get used on their own merits, solid Steel-types that don't care for its presence, and a recovery-capable spinner, I think that TSpikes are quite alright. Honestly, it segues into what I did write in - Dusclops. I really do think Dusclops is a problem already, and is going to become a problem with further development already. Blocking Spin's already real good, but man that thing can tank. I really do think that it should be given attention to. Not more dangerous than Pilo, but if my Christmas dreams come true and Pilo's dismissed, Clops becomes way more flexible probably since right now it's pretty needed to focus on Pilo (or, in lack of presence, one of the dragons or fires or thwackey or whatever) and I fear the meta development of Clops sets.
 
1. I agree with some kind of action on piloswine although i dont think it should right off be banned from the tier itself, Choice band (specifically) piloswine seems overwhelmed and requires every team to run quax (which is true) i've been spamming that mon the whole entirety of umpl while not being able to use it as a hazard removal because it sucks at that because of how many ghosts are running around the removal just sucks right now in the tier
2. I hate tspikes i cannot tell you the amount of times i've built a team and people told me "you dont have a poison type" i just hate requiring to run a poison type at all costs to not outright loose to poison is just not good while the other tspikers may not seem like a threat koffing is real sets up spikes / access to wow / split makes a team without a poison type an easy target
3. building wise I totally agree with what ttk says + i'd like to address scraggy+shed skin that mon is just a demon, during building (the whole umpl) i found myself not loosing to that mon at all costs and even then i couldnt exactly say "yh this team will never loose to it" that's what a scraggy is rn
which makes building boring and tiring
 
I finally have time to make a post:

:Piloswine: Piloswine :Piloswine:
One of the hot topics on one of NFE's titans since its release. Each ban has steadily propelled its place to the absolute best offensive threat in the meta and it's not hard to see why. Ground/Ice coverage on one of the highest attacking stats is very oppressive, and barring niche sets like Air Balloon Tinkatuff and the awful Bronzor, it lacks resistances and is extremely difficult to switch into. Paired with titans like Monferno and Thwackey and it can very easily overwhelm even prepared teams. However, I believe Piloswine's attacking prowess is compensated by the myriad of viable checks it has to address. Seadra and Dusclops have been trending upwards as reasonable answers that provide utility outside of just checking Piloswine (Seadra has pivoting, status absorbing, and can also check Fire-types, Dusclops with status spreading and also being a good status absorber/item disruptor), old staples like Quaxwell, Dunsparce, and Eelektrik can use their stats and recovery to outlast the wooly mammoth and take back momentum for their team. Even Fletchinder can take it on well with good prediction. In addition, base 50 Speed tends to be a baseline Speed that's quickly outrun by most offensive threats, as while its bulk enables it to trade very well, it's not expected to keep its longevity forever with how prominent hazards are, and even bulky threats like Pignite and offensive Ivysaur can outrun it with ease. While elite at breaking, I'd argue it's not been the most splashable, as lacking utility like Thwackey or Monferno constrains the teams it fits on and causes it to require more support for its effectiveness, though it uses said support exceptionally well. I certainly understand why players think Piloswine is broken, but the healthy amount of splashable checks combined with its low Speed and noticeable amount of support needed makes me think Piloswine should stay for NFE.

:Koffing: :Glimmet: :Frogadier: :Stunky: :Mareanie: Toxic Spikes and Hazards in General :Koffing: :Glimmet: :Frogadier: :Stunky: :Mareanie:
What I'd argue causes builds to be more linear. NFE is inherently Eviolite-reliant for a lot of Pokemon to function, and hazards (especially Toxic Spikes) is such a powerful tool that we've had multiple discussions on whether to ban the movie in general. Hazard removers are at a glaring low considering how effective hazard blockers/setters are (The Poison-types listed here for Toxic Spikes, Quilladin, Frogadier, and Glimmet for Spikes) at exploiting matchups against them. Dusclops' rise means Quaxwell is a poor spinner overall (it's mostly good for pivoting recovery and stats) and other hazard removers aren't easy to fit either (Fletchinder, Hattrem, Wartortle - Vullaby has fallen off so hard I'm still shocked). With how generous Knock Off's distribution is across generations, it's more difficult than ever to maintain said hazards and is a contributing reason multiple Pokemon have been banned for enabling hazard users in the first place (looking at you, electabuzz and magmar). even if you get rid of the best Toxic Spikes users in Koffing and Glimmet, the other TSpikes users like Frogadier Mareanie and Stunky can easily take their place and continue imposing this sort of problem. I'm honestly not sure if I want to support any tiering action on Toxic Spikes in general, but given how problematic hazards fundamentally are in an Eviolite-reliant metagame, I'd definitely be open to exploring more talks of whether the move really is health for the future.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is way back when Terastalization was banned. There's divide on how Tera makes centralizing mons even stronger (and possibly more unhealthy). Not knowing when your opponent will tera and into what he will tera can be seen as unhealthy & broken. Obviously, Gigantamax is a different generation and story, but it was widely seen as too powerful and unhealthy for the tier. Is Tera really too oppressive? it hasn't been discussed too much since the suspect's ban and I want to gauge more people's thoughts on Gen 9's signature mechanic.
 
Another thing I'd like to bring up is way back when Terastalization was banned. There's divide on how Tera makes centralizing mons even stronger (and possibly more unhealthy). Not knowing when your opponent will tera and into what he will tera can be seen as unhealthy & broken. Obviously, Gigantamax is a different generation and story, but it was widely seen as too powerful and unhealthy for the tier. Is Tera really too oppressive? it hasn't been discussed too much since the suspect's ban and I want to gauge more people's thoughts on Gen 9's signature mechanic.
I wholly and entirely oppose re-testing Tera. Most other SV Tiers have felt very unstable and chaotic mostly as a result of tera, and it's been nice to play this tier in comparison where everything feels stable. This also does not feel like it is at the expense of the tiers generational identity, given that pokemon new to NFE like Tinkatuff, Sliggoo Hisui, Quaxwell, Girafarig, and Dunsparce are all top threats while staples in older generations like Magmar, Electabuzz Machoke, and Roselia are either absent or banned. I also think the tier is in a pretty healthy state in terms of the actual gameplay, with most of the annoying issues disproportionately affecting the builder.
 
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honestly, i've wanted to try tera in the tier since d1 of trying it, that being said I dont doubt it will make the tier a lot more volatile (but maybe that's what it needs..???), so I'm not deadset yet really at all, but would be very open to a test just to see how it would fit in.
 
Another thing I'd like to bring up is way back when Terastalization was banned. There's divide on how Tera makes centralizing mons even stronger (and possibly more unhealthy). Not knowing when your opponent will tera and into what he will tera can be seen as unhealthy & broken. Obviously, Gigantamax is a different generation and story, but it was widely seen as too powerful and unhealthy for the tier. Is Tera really too oppressive? it hasn't been discussed too much since the suspect's ban and I want to gauge more people's thoughts on Gen 9's signature mechanic.

Back in the early days, I was opposed to having Tera as it led to a domino effect where offensive or setup-heavy mons eventually got banned, one by one. In a tier that has a limited number of Pokémon to select, I was afraid that we removed so much that we may have a balanced meta with Tera, but at the expense of banning too many mons, and nerfing setup-heavy mons and offense in exchange. In the newer meta, though, we've received more ways to counterplay if Tera were legal. However, there's a guaranteed chance there will be some banning until the tier finds the middle ground, and the middle ground may not turn out as people wanted Tera to do. Tera in NFE has always been structured to give wallbreakers buffs, while most defensive mons can't utilize it, and those who use it tend to still lack the damage output and therefore can be responded to unless they themself are set up (Dunsparce being the example I mentioned here). I'm not 100% against Tera in NFE, as it's very possible to make a playable or enjoyable meta. I'm just aware of what Tera could do to the tier. As for every potentially good thing Tera can counteract, mons that aren't problems now suddenly are in the argument of getting banned. Imagine taking into account CB Tera Ground Piloswine, Tera Fraxure, Pikachu, Wartortle, etc, and just vs the general offense. Tera may not make the tier more interactive if that's the goal of unbanning the mechanic.

Imo, the post Greybaum made here back in 2022 can still be applied here, as it shares my concerns about what it does to the tier, and if we are at the point of restricting tera, his point there still applies on how tricky that would be.
 
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Call me crazy, but I said I was enjoying the tier at a 9/10 on the survey. I'll admit I've mostly consumed the tier as a test game guy for UMPL/FL in addition to being a spectator, so I'm probably not perfectly in tune with any builder frustrations, but I'm still having a lot of fun in the tier, and I've had a lot of fun seeing people like I Feel Stabby and Terracotta bringing off-meta and innovative picks. I think it's really easy to find chances to do that in such a centralized tier, and there are just enough options in the builder to allow for these opportunities.

On Piloswine:
I think there's a bit of brokenness in CB Pilo. It's a massive nuke, and on multiple occasions I've looked at a build and said 'slap on a CB pilo' because it was just that good. As UMPL developed, I started feeling this less and less. Now, I think that Pilo is just broken enough that I support action on it like a suspect, but not broken enough for me to think it needs to be banned. I think that Pilo just exploits the meta really well, and that Quaxwell is just bad into CB pilo. Quaxwell's biggest disadvantage is that it is easy to chip into KO range from your slow max speed adamant wallbreaker (pilo, pignite), and if you want to switch into a fire type that may be clicking knock off, its hard to preserve Quax's eviolite, and therefore easy to get it into 2HKO after hazards range. Other cores like Seadra + Fletch are healthy adaptations to these wallbreakers in my opinion.

On Toxic Spikes:
These are annoying, I don't know if they're broken. Tspikes feel like a MU fish that's going to pay off because there are like 2 viable grounded poisons (and 5 less viable ones) that can remove them. There's only so much mileage you can get out of spamming tspike immune mons, which is doable but nobody is running an entire steelspam + bootspam or resttalk team often enough for it to be notable and reliable tspike counterplay. If you build a team to be good into Tspikes, you're guaranteeing one of your defensive mons can't switch into Piloswine, since the non-ground-weak poison is ice weak, and nobody is running an offensive poison (ive never seen stunky and been impressed with its performance). I do wonder if banning Koffing would help with the tspikes problem, since your options are the frail Glimmet, ground-weak water Mareanie, offensive mon Frogadier who you probably don't want to risk losing in exchange for tspikes, and stuff like Stunky and Varoom, and that's the entire 'viable' list of tspikers.

On Tera:
I like tera. I don't think I'd like tera in NFE, since it would redefine the tier, and I think it's too late in the gen for that. I also don't want to shake up the meta that much because I like it. It would definitely push Piloswine over the edge since now you don't need to knock Quaxwell before you 2HKO it with CB Tera Ground EQ, and yeah the quax can tera into a ground resist, but if this is the goal, Quax is basically forced into Tera Bug to not become ice weak. Tera Fairy Giraffe would likely be broken too, since it flips all of its weaknesses, and offensive steels/poisons are basically just Sliggoo-H, unless the fighting/fires want to tech poison moves. I would play in a NFE + tera tour to test it out tho.

On Scraggy:
I fully expected this mon to be on the survey. I have zero experience playing with/against it so I don't have too much to say other than its the only snowballing sweeper in the tier.
 
I am here with results from the recent NFE Tiering Survey! Thank you to everyone who took the time to fill it out!

Tier/Metagame Enjoyment: 7.30/10
Tier/Metagame Competitiveness: 6.75/10
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Toxic Spikes has been a source of contention since Vigoroth left the meta with Koffing at the helm of its success due to its ability to hit the field against a lot of common Pokemon in the metagame and its solid matchup into the tier's removal options. There was a good amount of mention of Scraggy and Dusclops (or hazards because of Dusclops) as well, but right now we feel like there is one direction to head in at this time. The Council and the community ultimately see Piloswine as the most problematic element in the metagame as it has appeared in many of the above posts and through discussions on Discord. After discussion, we will be holding a suspect on Piloswine that will follow this post soon. The details of how this will work and who will get to vote will be outlined there.
 
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