And a slow LO set works against a Garchom 1 vs. 1?
Oh, I understand. Facade OHKOs Skarmory!
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Gliscor is NOT 100% Heracross counter
- Thread starter umbarsc
- Start date
Oh, I understand. Facade OHKOs Skarmory!
Thank you for proving my point. Either way you are at the disadvantage in those situations.
It was sarcasme. Skarmory can't kill a heracross after getting hit by Facade? That's b*llshit. But why is this better than CB/scarf?
Ummm, for people bashing this as "ridiculous" and "unnecessary," note that 383 Atk Heracross using Swords Dance and having Guts activated does 84.75- 100% on average, and with Stealth Rock has a 41.03% chance of OHKOing said Gliscor (meaning 41.03% of the time, Facade will do 332 damage to Gliscor, the amount of HP it has after Stealth Rock + Leftovers recovery).
Doesn't seem too ridiculous to me.
EDIT: and uhhh, you do realize that Skarm isn't able to take a Swords Dance Guts boosted Close Combat at all right...since it takes 357 damage minimum...23 HP higher than its max...
Not to mention that it does 103.57% on average to Hippowdon, a very common CBCross switchin...so yea, advantages? Certainly.
Hell, just for fun, let's throw in BulkyDos. WITH THE INTIMIDATE FACTORED IN, Swords Dance Guts boosted Facade does 101.82%...so yea, Stone Edge isn't even missed on this set and it manages to completely wipe the floor with nearly every possibly physical switch-in, besides perhaps Dusknoir , which still takes 67.35% on average from Megahorn from this Heracross (again, with Swords Dance and Guts boost).
So yea...perhaps before bashing a set, maybe some open-mindedness would be appropriate?
As for HP Ice, I'm not really buying into that, but perhaps a little more explanation from the original poster would fix that!
Doesn't seem too ridiculous to me.
EDIT: and uhhh, you do realize that Skarm isn't able to take a Swords Dance Guts boosted Close Combat at all right...since it takes 357 damage minimum...23 HP higher than its max...
Not to mention that it does 103.57% on average to Hippowdon, a very common CBCross switchin...so yea, advantages? Certainly.
Hell, just for fun, let's throw in BulkyDos. WITH THE INTIMIDATE FACTORED IN, Swords Dance Guts boosted Facade does 101.82%...so yea, Stone Edge isn't even missed on this set and it manages to completely wipe the floor with nearly every possibly physical switch-in, besides perhaps Dusknoir , which still takes 67.35% on average from Megahorn from this Heracross (again, with Swords Dance and Guts boost).
So yea...perhaps before bashing a set, maybe some open-mindedness would be appropriate?
As for HP Ice, I'm not really buying into that, but perhaps a little more explanation from the original poster would fix that!
QFE.
Seriously, no need to start a flame war.
The set isn't very good imo, but no reason to call people noobs for making a set.
He's agreeing with you.
Gliscors aren't that common are they? I haven't faced that many. I might try the HP Ice later if it I face more of them, but right now it doesn't seem that worth it. Maybe if it were a OHKO.
I'm trying out the SD Hera though, someone posted it already.
Gliscors aren't that common are they? I haven't faced that many. I might try the HP Ice later if it I face more of them, but right now it doesn't seem that worth it. Maybe if it were a OHKO.
I'm trying out the SD Hera though, someone posted it already.
What was sarcasm? If you're referring to the Facade-vs.-Skarmory comment, well duh.
Aldaron explained the power of the set nicely. It basically rapes any defensive shit that thinks about switching in, which is what I was trying to get at when saying it "has almost zero counters". I've tested it, and I know it doesn't sweep teams, but it's very difficult to take down without sacrificing something.
I don't see why people are so against the HP Ice set. 574 Atk (CB) vs. 494 Atk seems like a huge difference, but is only an approximate 13% decrease, which still is very hard to counter with dual 120 BP attacks, arguably even harder since Gliscor is no longer a counter AND you get the ability to switch attacks.
I posted it in the "Post Creative New Movesets/EV Spreads" topic, if that's what you're thinking.
I really, really hate it when people say that because something does slightly less than an OHKO or 2HKO, it's a worthless set. It is very rare that Gliscor will be coming in without any residual damage from previous walling escapades, as well as the SR hazard it only needs about 7-8% residual damage to kill it off with Facade.
I remember RSE uu players using hp ice pinsir in order to get rid of gligar in two hits, so the first set perfectly makes sense to me =) it also hits both salamence and garchomp, two pretty common heracross switch-ins (sala on cc/megahorn, garchomp on stone edge)... the second set is honestly not that unexpected to me, since I've used it since the very first days shoddy was out, but given that any heracross other than cb/cs is uncommon these days, maybe it is good that its existence has been remembered to people around here. Also thief should be considered as an option since both gliscor and weezing don't like to have their leftovers stolen!
Quoted for emphasis.
:D
Taunt and/or Baton Pass Gliscor still annoys the shit out of that though.
Anyway, lay down the fire guys. No use in starting "hey you joined after me and have worse grammar LOL how could you criticize me" fests.
I think the fact that you're putting Hidden Power Ice on Heracross is pretty much evident Gliscor has it cornered. With this logic, Pokemon with a 4x weakness to anything cannot be counters to anything else, because they could always run Hidden Power...and I think that's stretching it a bit too far. "100% counters" are pretty hard to find already in DP even without taking ridiculous things like Hidden Power Ice on a Pokemon with 40 SpA and 125 Atk into account.
Note that you're sacrificing valuable SpDef too just to get HP Ice to work.
For the other set, that's more viable, but won't OHKO without residual damage (and Gliscor is immune to Toxic Spikes, Spikes AND Sand Stream, as if a "with entry hazards it can OHKO" claim wasn't ridiculous enough already).
However, against a lot of other Pokemon, both these sets, especially the Hidden Power Ice one, are pretty much 100% inferior to standard beasts such as Choice Band and Choice Scarf ones.
So sure, Heracross can make Gliscor into less of a counter. But it lowers his value by so much that Gliscor has already done his job before Heracross even had the chance to come in.
Mekkah, I bring this up again:
The difference between Gliscor and other 4x weak Pokemon is that Gliscor is just about the ONLY thing that people can use to counter Heracross. It's not like we're using HP Bug Gyarados, because Gyarados has numerous common switch-ins that aren't Celebi/Tangrowth. It's worth sacrificing a small amount of Atk power to gain the ability to render its main counter worthless. The point of offensive Pokemon is to avoid being walled, and if doing so means that you have to use what some might consider "gimmick", I don't see why not. Who cares how you beat a counter as long as you can? Sure, it proves that Gliscor is a great Heracross counter, but it also proves that Gliscor isn't a 100% counter. ("100% counter" meaning being able to switch on anything the Pokemon can utilize while still being efficient).
And how is the "with entry hazards" argument ridiculous? This is real Pokemon we're playing, not theorymon (wow that sounded pathetic); Heracross is not always going to be facing down a 100% Gliscor, and Stealth Rocks are quite easy to set up. Remember, Heracross isn't going to Swords Dance until you've seen the team a bit, and that means the Gliscor is likely to have taken damage already. I don't see what the point is in arguing that Gliscor IS going to be at 100% when it switches in to Heracross.
The difference between Gliscor and other 4x weak Pokemon is that Gliscor is just about the ONLY thing that people can use to counter Heracross. It's not like we're using HP Bug Gyarados, because Gyarados has numerous common switch-ins that aren't Celebi/Tangrowth. It's worth sacrificing a small amount of Atk power to gain the ability to render its main counter worthless. The point of offensive Pokemon is to avoid being walled, and if doing so means that you have to use what some might consider "gimmick", I don't see why not. Who cares how you beat a counter as long as you can? Sure, it proves that Gliscor is a great Heracross counter, but it also proves that Gliscor isn't a 100% counter. ("100% counter" meaning being able to switch on anything the Pokemon can utilize while still being efficient).
And how is the "with entry hazards" argument ridiculous? This is real Pokemon we're playing, not theorymon (wow that sounded pathetic); Heracross is not always going to be facing down a 100% Gliscor, and Stealth Rocks are quite easy to set up. Remember, Heracross isn't going to Swords Dance until you've seen the team a bit, and that means the Gliscor is likely to have taken damage already. I don't see what the point is in arguing that Gliscor IS going to be at 100% when it switches in to Heracross.
That's something I disagree on.
Heracross has stretched the boundries beyond reality in order to attempt an efficient answer to Gliscor, who is indefinatly the best Heracross counter. Mekkah has explained well enough how Heracross has gone to great lenghs to anti-counter its counter, and by doing so it has taken a significant ammount of damage to do so.
If you have used Hidden Power [Ice] on Gliscor, and he switches out in order to keep that Gliscor, then he will bring it in later to heel it once again. Now, you must take into account that 10% from Life Orb is occuring from your first Close Combat, then your Hidden Power [Ice] (we can always add the SandStorm damage to further my point), and now it finally must decide to lose another 10% with either Hidden Power [Ice] or take a shot with Close Combat. All of this damageoccuring with Life Orb is already showing how Heracross is desperate to counter its counter and in doing show took down its ability to be a threat in the first place (which is why it's trying to take out Gliscor). Now, Gliscor is common with Stealth Rock too, which also is taken into account. This means that an Earthquake will take out Heracross after Heracross' 2nd switch-in. Imagine that Earthquake was used against Heracross' weakened defense due to Close Combat, it's fainting with Gliscor, or it isn't taking Gliscor down at all.
This isn't even taking Aerial Ace into account...
That seemed more like an anti-Life Orb rant than a rant against the set, to be honest...
And it can also be argued that the CB set takes more residual damage than the Life Orb set due to switching.
Heracross was sent in!
Heracross was hurt by Spikes! (12.5%)
Heracross was hurt by Stealth Rock! (12.5%)
Celebi was switched in!
Heracross used Close Combat!
Heracross was hurt by Sandstorm (6.25%)
At this point, Heracross has lost 37.5% of its health. If it held a Life Orb, Heracross would be able to use Megahorn, though Celebi would most likely switch having seen Life Orb.
It's basically a matter of: 16.25% every turn, or 25% every switch-in? That is assuming Stealth Rocks and a layer of Spikes, which is not unreasonable at all.
And it can also be argued that the CB set takes more residual damage than the Life Orb set due to switching.
Heracross was sent in!
Heracross was hurt by Spikes! (12.5%)
Heracross was hurt by Stealth Rock! (12.5%)
Celebi was switched in!
Heracross used Close Combat!
Heracross was hurt by Sandstorm (6.25%)
At this point, Heracross has lost 37.5% of its health. If it held a Life Orb, Heracross would be able to use Megahorn, though Celebi would most likely switch having seen Life Orb.
It's basically a matter of: 16.25% every turn, or 25% every switch-in? That is assuming Stealth Rocks and a layer of Spikes, which is not unreasonable at all.
The errors in MetalKid's calculator still haven't been fixed, I see. Besides, even that calcualation returns a minimum 53.11%. 53.125% is needed for a guaranteed 2HKO.
MoPcross anyone? It can indeed rape any non AA Gliscor(which is common noting 75 percent run Ice Fang, Taunt, or Knock Off) with a sub up and access to Swords Dance.
can you illuminate the ignorant ones like me that don't know what MoPcross means? the analysis doesn't name any set like that and I'm sure I've seen that name pop up in another thread before.