"Waiter! My Tail Glow is too Bright and my Oblivion Wing is too End-bringing!"
-
Follow our Instagram!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV Camove Chaos
- Thread starter Clas
- Start date
AHEM... Dhelmise, buddy listen... I'm sorry if I ratted you out but it might be joe(y)ver...
Cool Gigaton is not banned.
Alright get Dhelmise and Perrserker out of this house. A free 50% boost to Gigaton is just not ok in any universe.
Alright get Dhelmise and Perrserker out of this house. A free 50% boost to Gigaton is just not ok in any universe.
Perrserker is not banworthy lol. Not worth using unless you just love Doom Desire
Oookayyyyy...Instead of laughing, can you give me a reason why Dhelmise, and Perrserker/Dhelmise Junior over there, are healthy and not banworthy?
For every 100 points of damage Dhelmise does, Perrserker does 80.
With how overwhelming Zereora is I’m surprised he hasn’t actually been banned. Fastest mom the tier. Not really frail. Can set up and heal back with oblivion wing. With volt absorb he can have some very difficult to easily damage typings. He can run physical or special to be unpredictable.
Mathematically, Perrserker is closer to around 12 - 13% weaker than Dhelmise, but that's still really broken.
Zera has 1 good set per typing; that being Steam/OWing/(Knock/Secret/Psystrike)/NP for Water/Flying and Gigaton/OWing/PBlades/NP for Steel/Flying. Other typings are hyperspecific and hyperlimited, such as Fight/Fly only being viable thanks to fitting Spikes 4th. It also HAS to run Life Orb to do any damage, making answering Zera not that punishing. Fully physical sets are bad, and same with sets that aren't what I listed in 99.5% of scenarios. Zera is a very good progress maker, but answering it is very reasonable and counterplay to it also means you have counterplay for a lot more of the meta.
mainly in the om mashups room
With the end of the Camove ladder I want to post the team I used the most to hit #1 multiple times
100%MAXNOCHILL (Gardevoir) (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Secret Sword
- Torch Song
- Blood Moon
The star of the show Modest torch song Mgarde. This mon can solo almost every common spdef there is if you don't resist bloodmoon or secret sword you could not switch in. I made it modest just to make the calcs a little better since being max speed didn't matter as much as you'd think. Main issues with this mon were poison spdef mons and coal. While garde can "handle" cress and m-latias with tsong being poisoned is really annoying and requires you to play well (crazy i know) and coal needs to be under 80 to die switching in(unless its grass steel) and it does just threaten an ohko with gigaton
Actually Satan (Zeraora) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Oblivion Wing
- Nasty Plot
- Knock Off
Pretty average zera set not much to be said here helps with the poison guys and the av on slowking. Used to be water steel with Z but I realized thanks to Clas' version of the team that just running normal zera with knock works fine.
MarioMario (Haxorus) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Pyro Ball
- Parting Shot
- Bolt Strike
This is another mon I "took" from Clas it used to be modest scarf Blace because the og team idea was overwhelming spdef guys with 3 strong special attackers but it underperformed and Hax does answer Gardes weaker mus pretty well.
SHIROUFUCKINGEMIYA (Hydrapple) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Tachyon Cutter
- Dragon Tail
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
Tiger Mom (Slowking-Galar) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flip Turn
- Mortal Spin
- Spectral Thief
- Stone Axe
Worst Master (Regirock) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Flip Turn
- Spectral Thief
- Tidy Up
My personal go to defensive core in camove triple removal because hazards are annoying (because i can rarely fit them in) prob isn't that good but it withstood the randomly high amount of HO this tier has despite how mid it was.
Anyways this team is really fun and honestly surprised how little garde was used before ladder.
100%MAXNOCHILL (Gardevoir) (F) @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonlight
- Secret Sword
- Torch Song
- Blood Moon
The star of the show Modest torch song Mgarde. This mon can solo almost every common spdef there is if you don't resist bloodmoon or secret sword you could not switch in. I made it modest just to make the calcs a little better since being max speed didn't matter as much as you'd think. Main issues with this mon were poison spdef mons and coal. While garde can "handle" cress and m-latias with tsong being poisoned is really annoying and requires you to play well (crazy i know) and coal needs to be under 80 to die switching in(unless its grass steel) and it does just threaten an ohko with gigaton
Actually Satan (Zeraora) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Oblivion Wing
- Nasty Plot
- Knock Off
Pretty average zera set not much to be said here helps with the poison guys and the av on slowking. Used to be water steel with Z but I realized thanks to Clas' version of the team that just running normal zera with knock works fine.
MarioMario (Haxorus) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Headlong Rush
- Pyro Ball
- Parting Shot
- Bolt Strike
This is another mon I "took" from Clas it used to be modest scarf Blace because the og team idea was overwhelming spdef guys with 3 strong special attackers but it underperformed and Hax does answer Gardes weaker mus pretty well.
SHIROUFUCKINGEMIYA (Hydrapple) (M) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Tachyon Cutter
- Dragon Tail
- Rapid Spin
- U-turn
Tiger Mom (Slowking-Galar) (F) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flip Turn
- Mortal Spin
- Spectral Thief
- Stone Axe
Worst Master (Regirock) @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 1 Spe
- Strength Sap
- Flip Turn
- Spectral Thief
- Tidy Up
My personal go to defensive core in camove triple removal because hazards are annoying (because i can rarely fit them in) prob isn't that good but it withstood the randomly high amount of HO this tier has despite how mid it was.
Anyways this team is really fun and honestly surprised how little garde was used before ladder.
Dhelmise is now banned.
Council unanimously agreed it needed to go. Steel/Normal and Steel/Grass Dhelmise don't share many checks, with Steel/Grass getting around the Ground weakness and Normal stopping Spectral Thief. That paired with genuinely ridiculous Gigaton Hammer damage at +2 and a severe lack of Bullet Punch answers alongside good natural bulk and sustain for an offensive Pokemon was way too much.
We will continue to monitor other top Gigaton Hammer users, but in the meantime there is no other action.
Council unanimously agreed it needed to go. Steel/Normal and Steel/Grass Dhelmise don't share many checks, with Steel/Grass getting around the Ground weakness and Normal stopping Spectral Thief. That paired with genuinely ridiculous Gigaton Hammer damage at +2 and a severe lack of Bullet Punch answers alongside good natural bulk and sustain for an offensive Pokemon was way too much.
We will continue to monitor other top Gigaton Hammer users, but in the meantime there is no other action.
what if gigaton went instead of dhelm tho the move is insanely splashable
Suspect ended up in a DNB.
oh rip
god i wish
Couple of good, currently unused sets – I'm lazy so no replays but they are there if you look
Ogerpon-Hearthflame @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Thousand Waves
- Mortal Spin / Stone Axe
- Strength Sap
Incredible blend of offense and utility, with really only Ability Shield users (unviable) being able to negate most means of progress and utility. Fire/Ground is obviously an excellent STAB combination and a surprisingly decent defensive type (80/96 special bulk with resists and the capacity to outspeed most hard hitters is much better than it looks), but due to the variety of whatever defensive typings you may encounter (ex. Water/Flying, Fire/Flying, very bulky Pokemon not hit SE) that alone is insufficient. However, the utility we can pack is pretty much unparalleled compared to any other type. Sacred Fire's burn chance and Thousand Waves' ability to gain additional turns by forcing trapped foes to recover in a myriad of game positions are already impressive. However, we can also Mortal Spin, which is basically unblockable due to viable Steel-types being weak to at least one of Fire or Ground, and Stone Axe, which sets hazards while dealing non-negligible damage and targeting Fire/Flying, to the mix. Along with Strength Sap, the result is a simply astounding combination of raw strength, practical utility, and longevity that is a force to be reckoned with. I'm sure you could also run the much bulkier Mega Gyarados instead, though I haven't experimented with it myself.
Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Explosion
- Quick Attack / Multi-Attack / Strength Sap / Stone Axe / Glacial Lance etc.
Also really hard to deny progress against. The set is simple: Scrappy Normal + Fighting is pretty much unwallable with sufficiently strong attacks, and your attacks are DEFINITELY strong enough. +2 Jolly Explosion OHKOes neutral non-Sturdy Regirock, meaning you grab at least one KO vs. anything bar Eviolite Rhydon if Jolly (and technically Sturdy Regirock). Fighting-type coverage perfectly complements Scrappy Normal STAB, with the only real downside being a Beak Blast/Oblivion Wing weakness. There are a few pretty robust switch-ins like Steel/Flying Rhydon but you have an additional moveslot to tinker around with, so your consistency isn't as impeded by Camove's volatility as for other offensive mons. Spectral immunity, Knock Off/U-turn resists, and just enough bulk that you can often SD to +4 are also pretty nice.
Couple of good teams – I haven't willingly built for a long time now but these have worked for me and I haven't posted them anywhere yet
Semistall-ish structure, but I don't think this team fits neatly into any one archetype due to even the seemingly defensive Pokemon being primary progress-makers. Regirock, and Hydrapple handle physical attacks well enough in the short-term, while Blissey/Hydrapple/Tornadus are sufficient in the short-term on the special side. While in the long-term these Pokemon would be broken through, pivoting into Ditto usually prevents that from becoming an issue. While it is possible to Improof while having advantageous matchup into whatever physically/specially defensive tools each variation has, it's generally not worth it due to necessitating sets that are objectively not as effective as most mainstream attackers against most of the metagame. Mabosstiff is (still) really broken and is more than sufficient as a standalone breaker, progress maker with utility attacks, and priority user if you find that worthwhile. These 2 are probably collectively 10-0 or better in ISTT or wherever else I used them, more consistent than almost every sample imo
Pretty good noobkiller, but many matchups require very precise play. King's Shield is replaceable with Spiky Shield for Choiced Pursuit users, but both have their tradeoffs. Replacing Skeledirge for a Steel/Flying Regenerator user makes some tougher matchups easier to play, but slightly decreases consistency imo. Spectral/King's Shield/Circle Throw/recovery Coalossal could honestly be an improvement, making random Normal/Steel setup less annoying to deal with, but I never bothered to test that change. Like with the above team (and any others), you could think of a decently long list of sets that 6-0 without too much difficulty, but most of them would necessitate hard cteaming which isn't worth it. Easily the most consistent hard stall I've tried, but even for Camove the bar is pretty low and it's not necessarily a team I would use taking opposing scouts into consideration in tours.
Ogerpon-Hearthflame @ Hearthflame Mask
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Thousand Waves
- Mortal Spin / Stone Axe
- Strength Sap
Incredible blend of offense and utility, with really only Ability Shield users (unviable) being able to negate most means of progress and utility. Fire/Ground is obviously an excellent STAB combination and a surprisingly decent defensive type (80/96 special bulk with resists and the capacity to outspeed most hard hitters is much better than it looks), but due to the variety of whatever defensive typings you may encounter (ex. Water/Flying, Fire/Flying, very bulky Pokemon not hit SE) that alone is insufficient. However, the utility we can pack is pretty much unparalleled compared to any other type. Sacred Fire's burn chance and Thousand Waves' ability to gain additional turns by forcing trapped foes to recover in a myriad of game positions are already impressive. However, we can also Mortal Spin, which is basically unblockable due to viable Steel-types being weak to at least one of Fire or Ground, and Stone Axe, which sets hazards while dealing non-negligible damage and targeting Fire/Flying, to the mix. Along with Strength Sap, the result is a simply astounding combination of raw strength, practical utility, and longevity that is a force to be reckoned with. I'm sure you could also run the much bulkier Mega Gyarados instead, though I haven't experimented with it myself.
Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Explosion
- Quick Attack / Multi-Attack / Strength Sap / Stone Axe / Glacial Lance etc.
Also really hard to deny progress against. The set is simple: Scrappy Normal + Fighting is pretty much unwallable with sufficiently strong attacks, and your attacks are DEFINITELY strong enough. +2 Jolly Explosion OHKOes neutral non-Sturdy Regirock, meaning you grab at least one KO vs. anything bar Eviolite Rhydon if Jolly (and technically Sturdy Regirock). Fighting-type coverage perfectly complements Scrappy Normal STAB, with the only real downside being a Beak Blast/Oblivion Wing weakness. There are a few pretty robust switch-ins like Steel/Flying Rhydon but you have an additional moveslot to tinker around with, so your consistency isn't as impeded by Camove's volatility as for other offensive mons. Spectral immunity, Knock Off/U-turn resists, and just enough bulk that you can often SD to +4 are also pretty nice.
Couple of good teams – I haven't willingly built for a long time now but these have worked for me and I haven't posted them anywhere yet
Semistall-ish structure, but I don't think this team fits neatly into any one archetype due to even the seemingly defensive Pokemon being primary progress-makers. Regirock, and Hydrapple handle physical attacks well enough in the short-term, while Blissey/Hydrapple/Tornadus are sufficient in the short-term on the special side. While in the long-term these Pokemon would be broken through, pivoting into Ditto usually prevents that from becoming an issue. While it is possible to Improof while having advantageous matchup into whatever physically/specially defensive tools each variation has, it's generally not worth it due to necessitating sets that are objectively not as effective as most mainstream attackers against most of the metagame. Mabosstiff is (still) really broken and is more than sufficient as a standalone breaker, progress maker with utility attacks, and priority user if you find that worthwhile. These 2 are probably collectively 10-0 or better in ISTT or wherever else I used them, more consistent than almost every sample imo
Pretty good noobkiller, but many matchups require very precise play. King's Shield is replaceable with Spiky Shield for Choiced Pursuit users, but both have their tradeoffs. Replacing Skeledirge for a Steel/Flying Regenerator user makes some tougher matchups easier to play, but slightly decreases consistency imo. Spectral/King's Shield/Circle Throw/recovery Coalossal could honestly be an improvement, making random Normal/Steel setup less annoying to deal with, but I never bothered to test that change. Like with the above team (and any others), you could think of a decently long list of sets that 6-0 without too much difficulty, but most of them would necessitate hard cteaming which isn't worth it. Easily the most consistent hard stall I've tried, but even for Camove the bar is pretty low and it's not necessarily a team I would use taking opposing scouts into consideration in tours.
I'm just going to briefly talk about the updates from Champions, like the move changes and the mega Pokemon we can see. More specifically what I expect to happen when they're implemented into Camove.
New Megas:
110/148/75/110/100/75
Unless you're running some sort of specific mixed set, MGyara is a direct upgrade.
70/80/70/140/100/120
If you want an accurate Blizzard, MPidge does that and more better than Froslass. Fast Veil is not good enough to waste a mega slot on something as frail as Froslass.
75/50/110/130/110/65
Cresselia is an upgrade to this, with no stone requirement and less special attack. Latias-Mega is an upgrade in literally every way except it doesnt underspeed.
95/83/93/135/110/70
No part of this does anything.
65/140/110/40/100/110
Stalwart does nothing so neither does Skarmory.
110/165/100/65/65/103
Cool stat spread, I don't think Seen Fist is valuable enough to put over existing megas.
89/155/105/70/105/55
Slightly worse stat spread, Seen Fist.
60/75/110/175/110/90
Low expectations are due to Infiltrator and subpar bulk and speed. If substitute gets unbanned, Infiltrator will still not provide consistent value in its games.
74/48/76/143/110/124
If this had a consistent or good ability I'd have something to say about it.
91/124/115/145/125/100
Great stat spread but Multiscale is not good enough to provide value.
97/157/133/62/107/33
Iron Fist boosts Headlong Rush, but there isnt really a reason to use this over something that can more consistently hit ground types like MGyara and Haxorus.
78/85/110/160/116/36
What are we doing here? If you need Berserk just use Goltres.
72/125/77/133/82/142
Protean in a meta where you can already customize your type just isn't valuable. Its stat spread is also undermined by base Zeraora outspeeding and outdamaging it while having a useful ability.
80/125/85/135/95/70
"High" HP Innards Out is a very good back pocket option tbf. However Victreebel needs a turn to mega and takes up a mega slot. If it can only activate its ability after it faints, why not just use a mega who can provide more consistent value to a team? Leading it and doing stuff could make your opponent have to play more carefully in a game where you have a stall core. However, Ditto can do a similar thing while getting information on a team and not having to sack itself.
75/69/72/159/129/134
Levitate and its stat spread leave things to be desired. Both are good, but it just leaves something to be desired. Its biggest competitors (ordered in least to greatest viability) are Latios-Mega, Azelf, Iron Bundle, and Tapu Lele.
Latios-Mega has levitate and more attack and special attack, but sits at the way more contested 110 speed tier. Azelf is frailer but faster and stronger than both with Lorb, and is not a mega. Both are way better mixed attackers, which is more valuable than a straight special attacker.
Iron Bundle is faster and has item freedom.
Tapu Lele is one of the best Pokemon in the tier. It just competes with Delphox too much in the 'fast special attacker' niche that I can't put much faith in Mega Delphox.
88/137/172/74/115/44
Maggron and Regirock compete with Chesnaught a lot. However Bulletproof blocks damage from Pyro Ball, Beak Blast, Zap Cannon and Focus Blast. Both of its competitors are better physical tanks, but I guess they don't wall Mpidge as much. Many Pyro Ball users have Mold Breaker anyways so it's not that big of a deal. Also Beak Blast can still burn Chesnaught.
78/137/100/74/93/118
It's fine. Theres a lot of good camove moves like Bolt Strike, Precipice Blades, Head Smash, etc that it likes by being more accurate. However MPidge gets way more use out of No Guard with Zap Cannon, which can permanently cripple teams under the right circumstances. Also 118 speed is great until you see its biggets competitor is 121 speed. If there were better/more inaccurate physical attacks than Dynamic Punch we'd have more to talk about.
85/160/125/89/93/78
I originally saw this as an Msciz downgrade. And it kind of still is. With Triple Dive and Gear Grind getting buffed, MSciz's place in the tier makes it look a lot more suspect. Feraligatr has these downsides:
Requires Dragon Dance
Does less damage with Return than MSciz does with DDarts
Dragonize Quick Attack is less valuable than Technician Aqua Jet/Accelrock
60/100/105/130/105/120
Nope. Not doing Huge Power. You can't make us.
Moves (that matter):
Beak Blast has increased to 120 base power but decreased pp to 8. This will severely limit how we can proc burns without relying on Wisp.
Maybe Bloodmoon lowering to 130 base power keeps Blursa in the tier. We will see.
Astral Barrage was reduces to 110 base power. It might be fine now that Infernal Parade has kind of replaced it as the Ghost type spam move.
Salt Cure was banned very early into Gen 9 because it is Salt Cure. Its damage has been halved. It is probably fine now.
Dire Claw's proc chance has been reduced to 30%. I don't really think anyone wants it back too much. Even with the sleep and para nerfs.
Hyper Drill is 120 Base Power
This is good news for Pokemon with the -ate/-ize abilities. For those who do not know Multi Attack's type cannot be changed by these abilities. Normal type attackers (
) will still use Multi Attack due to its greater PP. Feraligatr now fits within the damage ranges of MSciz DDarts.
Anchor Shot is now 90 base power. Cool!
Snap Trap is now a Steel Type move. Anchor Shot will probably be better on most sets still. However on sets with pivoting, like Bug Coal, I can see this being valuable. Passive damage while trapping a Pokemon who doesn't threaten you makes it very promising. Not having on-demand switch out when your opponent switches to Hoger or something is not very good though. We could see Shed Shell if this move is that valuable.
Apple Acid has been buffed to 90 base power. We'll see if anything other than Heatran starts using it.
First Impression is now 100 base power. Cool!
???
Grav Apple is now 90 base power. We'll see if it sees use.
Bone Rush has been buffed from 25 to 30 base power. This was already something Heracross was using. Going from 125 to 150 base power is quite a big deal. I also am just theorymonning that maybe Bone Rush Toxtricity could get play. Loaded Dice isn't a bad item on it considering how it threatens Water Shuriken.
Triple Dive has been buffed from 30 base power per hit to 35. For technician, that means it goes from 135 base power to 157.5. Scizor was using DDarts not because Dragon is a valuable offensive type, but because it got a consistent, 150 base power, drawback-less attack. Triple Dive buff means it gets a stronger STAB move on the type it was already using 90% of the time anyways.
Also maybe Toxtricity can go mixed now idk.
Gear Grind went from 50 base power to 60. Remember how Gigaton Hammer is controversial? There is now a 180 base power (for Technician) steel move that does not have a recharge turn. Scizor could end up by some miracle being fair, but I doubt it.
Also maybe Toxtricity can go mixed now idk.
Scizor, you did it! It was wonderful. I am very proud of what you've accomplished, all of the teams I put you on. There's no way I can ever thank you enough for what you've done. You've saved so many games. Who knows, maybe even saved the entire metagame. That makes the rest of this even harder. Everyone will use you. Every team will have you, and want to revenge kill and stallbreak. And then what? It will not be competitive. What happens to Camove Chaos if we lose the best of a generation? You just gave us back all this team variety... I can't take the chance of losing it. I've made a lot of tough decisions since I've been Camove TL and then council member. But none of them harder than this one. You saved us, but you'll kill us. I'm sorry. You're a hero... and you have to leave.
New Megas:
110/148/75/110/100/75
Unless you're running some sort of specific mixed set, MGyara is a direct upgrade.
70/80/70/140/100/120
If you want an accurate Blizzard, MPidge does that and more better than Froslass. Fast Veil is not good enough to waste a mega slot on something as frail as Froslass.
75/50/110/130/110/65
Cresselia is an upgrade to this, with no stone requirement and less special attack. Latias-Mega is an upgrade in literally every way except it doesnt underspeed.
95/83/93/135/110/70
No part of this does anything.
65/140/110/40/100/110
Stalwart does nothing so neither does Skarmory.
110/165/100/65/65/103
Cool stat spread, I don't think Seen Fist is valuable enough to put over existing megas.
89/155/105/70/105/55
Slightly worse stat spread, Seen Fist.
60/75/110/175/110/90
Low expectations are due to Infiltrator and subpar bulk and speed. If substitute gets unbanned, Infiltrator will still not provide consistent value in its games.
74/48/76/143/110/124
If this had a consistent or good ability I'd have something to say about it.
91/124/115/145/125/100
Great stat spread but Multiscale is not good enough to provide value.
97/157/133/62/107/33
Iron Fist boosts Headlong Rush, but there isnt really a reason to use this over something that can more consistently hit ground types like MGyara and Haxorus.
78/85/110/160/116/36
What are we doing here? If you need Berserk just use Goltres.
72/125/77/133/82/142
Protean in a meta where you can already customize your type just isn't valuable. Its stat spread is also undermined by base Zeraora outspeeding and outdamaging it while having a useful ability.
80/125/85/135/95/70
"High" HP Innards Out is a very good back pocket option tbf. However Victreebel needs a turn to mega and takes up a mega slot. If it can only activate its ability after it faints, why not just use a mega who can provide more consistent value to a team? Leading it and doing stuff could make your opponent have to play more carefully in a game where you have a stall core. However, Ditto can do a similar thing while getting information on a team and not having to sack itself.
75/69/72/159/129/134
Levitate and its stat spread leave things to be desired. Both are good, but it just leaves something to be desired. Its biggest competitors (ordered in least to greatest viability) are Latios-Mega, Azelf, Iron Bundle, and Tapu Lele.
Latios-Mega has levitate and more attack and special attack, but sits at the way more contested 110 speed tier. Azelf is frailer but faster and stronger than both with Lorb, and is not a mega. Both are way better mixed attackers, which is more valuable than a straight special attacker.
Iron Bundle is faster and has item freedom.
Tapu Lele is one of the best Pokemon in the tier. It just competes with Delphox too much in the 'fast special attacker' niche that I can't put much faith in Mega Delphox.
88/137/172/74/115/44
Maggron and Regirock compete with Chesnaught a lot. However Bulletproof blocks damage from Pyro Ball, Beak Blast, Zap Cannon and Focus Blast. Both of its competitors are better physical tanks, but I guess they don't wall Mpidge as much. Many Pyro Ball users have Mold Breaker anyways so it's not that big of a deal. Also Beak Blast can still burn Chesnaught.
78/137/100/74/93/118
It's fine. Theres a lot of good camove moves like Bolt Strike, Precipice Blades, Head Smash, etc that it likes by being more accurate. However MPidge gets way more use out of No Guard with Zap Cannon, which can permanently cripple teams under the right circumstances. Also 118 speed is great until you see its biggets competitor is 121 speed. If there were better/more inaccurate physical attacks than Dynamic Punch we'd have more to talk about.
85/160/125/89/93/78
I originally saw this as an Msciz downgrade. And it kind of still is. With Triple Dive and Gear Grind getting buffed, MSciz's place in the tier makes it look a lot more suspect. Feraligatr has these downsides:
Requires Dragon Dance
Does less damage with Return than MSciz does with DDarts
Dragonize Quick Attack is less valuable than Technician Aqua Jet/Accelrock
(Ordered from low to high)
74/85/87/155/148/102
Mega Garde sidegrade. Slightly faster and bulkier. Fleur Cannon does more than Gardevoir's Blood Moon (factoring and not factoring the Bloodmoon nerf). Where Gardevoir requires Moonlight, Floette requires Fleur Cannon. However Gardevoir does hit harder on its secondary STAB, and won't halve its special attack. They lose to the same mons. Theorymonning so far so we'll have to see if they have more meaningful difference in practice.
80/92/115/143/115/80
Mega Sol does a lot of heavy lifting here. Synthesis/Moonlight/Morning Sun are going to be the best healing moves in the game on specifically Meganium. Hydro Steam and all fire moves will always have a 1.5x boost to them (that does not compound with sun). It can even go mixed if it runs Growth. There is no world where this does not make a significant impact to the tier. I can see this being one of the best stall breakers.
65/138/85/138/85/75
You know what the fact that it can very easily inflict burn is good enough for me. It instantly disables physical attackers and cripples mixed attackers. While physical fire types would handle that, Scovillain will still be able to choose its type.
It will require support to stay alive but I do think it's going to be a valuable mon. Maybe it needs Aurorus Veil. We'll see.
83/90/105/150/96/101
Having decent stats and Adaptability is a sure way to find success in camove. Although underwhelming Basculegion is a viable Pokemon thanks to it. PZ, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Lucario are all banned because of Adaptability and great stats. Glimmora is likely not as overwhelming as Bee or Luc, and it does not have item freedom like PZ. I can tell you it will be successful. Earlier I was discussing Floette and Gardevoir, and how they compete with each other. Their stipulations are that they need to be fairy type and require specific moves. Glimmora has all of their strengths and none of their weaknesses. All hail Glimmora.
74/85/87/155/148/102
Mega Garde sidegrade. Slightly faster and bulkier. Fleur Cannon does more than Gardevoir's Blood Moon (factoring and not factoring the Bloodmoon nerf). Where Gardevoir requires Moonlight, Floette requires Fleur Cannon. However Gardevoir does hit harder on its secondary STAB, and won't halve its special attack. They lose to the same mons. Theorymonning so far so we'll have to see if they have more meaningful difference in practice.
80/92/115/143/115/80
Mega Sol does a lot of heavy lifting here. Synthesis/Moonlight/Morning Sun are going to be the best healing moves in the game on specifically Meganium. Hydro Steam and all fire moves will always have a 1.5x boost to them (that does not compound with sun). It can even go mixed if it runs Growth. There is no world where this does not make a significant impact to the tier. I can see this being one of the best stall breakers.
65/138/85/138/85/75
You know what the fact that it can very easily inflict burn is good enough for me. It instantly disables physical attackers and cripples mixed attackers. While physical fire types would handle that, Scovillain will still be able to choose its type.
It will require support to stay alive but I do think it's going to be a valuable mon. Maybe it needs Aurorus Veil. We'll see.
83/90/105/150/96/101
Having decent stats and Adaptability is a sure way to find success in camove. Although underwhelming Basculegion is a viable Pokemon thanks to it. PZ, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Lucario are all banned because of Adaptability and great stats. Glimmora is likely not as overwhelming as Bee or Luc, and it does not have item freedom like PZ. I can tell you it will be successful. Earlier I was discussing Floette and Gardevoir, and how they compete with each other. Their stipulations are that they need to be fairy type and require specific moves. Glimmora has all of their strengths and none of their weaknesses. All hail Glimmora.
60/100/105/130/105/120
Nope. Not doing Huge Power. You can't make us.
Moves (that matter):
Beak Blast has increased to 120 base power but decreased pp to 8. This will severely limit how we can proc burns without relying on Wisp.
Maybe Bloodmoon lowering to 130 base power keeps Blursa in the tier. We will see.
Astral Barrage was reduces to 110 base power. It might be fine now that Infernal Parade has kind of replaced it as the Ghost type spam move.
Salt Cure was banned very early into Gen 9 because it is Salt Cure. Its damage has been halved. It is probably fine now.
Dire Claw's proc chance has been reduced to 30%. I don't really think anyone wants it back too much. Even with the sleep and para nerfs.
Hyper Drill is 120 Base Power
This is good news for Pokemon with the -ate/-ize abilities. For those who do not know Multi Attack's type cannot be changed by these abilities. Normal type attackers (
) will still use Multi Attack due to its greater PP. Feraligatr now fits within the damage ranges of MSciz DDarts.Anchor Shot is now 90 base power. Cool!
Snap Trap is now a Steel Type move. Anchor Shot will probably be better on most sets still. However on sets with pivoting, like Bug Coal, I can see this being valuable. Passive damage while trapping a Pokemon who doesn't threaten you makes it very promising. Not having on-demand switch out when your opponent switches to Hoger or something is not very good though. We could see Shed Shell if this move is that valuable.
Apple Acid has been buffed to 90 base power. We'll see if anything other than Heatran starts using it.
First Impression is now 100 base power. Cool!
???
Grav Apple is now 90 base power. We'll see if it sees use.
Bone Rush has been buffed from 25 to 30 base power. This was already something Heracross was using. Going from 125 to 150 base power is quite a big deal. I also am just theorymonning that maybe Bone Rush Toxtricity could get play. Loaded Dice isn't a bad item on it considering how it threatens Water Shuriken.
Triple Dive has been buffed from 30 base power per hit to 35. For technician, that means it goes from 135 base power to 157.5. Scizor was using DDarts not because Dragon is a valuable offensive type, but because it got a consistent, 150 base power, drawback-less attack. Triple Dive buff means it gets a stronger STAB move on the type it was already using 90% of the time anyways.
Also maybe Toxtricity can go mixed now idk.
Gear Grind went from 50 base power to 60. Remember how Gigaton Hammer is controversial? There is now a 180 base power (for Technician) steel move that does not have a recharge turn. Scizor could end up by some miracle being fair, but I doubt it.
Also maybe Toxtricity can go mixed now idk.
Scizor, you did it! It was wonderful. I am very proud of what you've accomplished, all of the teams I put you on. There's no way I can ever thank you enough for what you've done. You've saved so many games. Who knows, maybe even saved the entire metagame. That makes the rest of this even harder. Everyone will use you. Every team will have you, and want to revenge kill and stallbreak. And then what? It will not be competitive. What happens to Camove Chaos if we lose the best of a generation? You just gave us back all this team variety... I can't take the chance of losing it. I've made a lot of tough decisions since I've been Camove TL and then council member. But none of them harder than this one. You saved us, but you'll kill us. I'm sorry. You're a hero... and you have to leave.
Last edited: