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CAP 37 - Part 2 - Concept Assessment

Barb Barrage

Condition: The opponent is affected by a non-volatile status condition (Burn, Paralysis, Poison, etc)

Consistency: The condition is consistent in activation if the opponent is statused. Where the inconsistency comes in is applying said status. The move is self-proccing at 30% but can also be supplemented by teammates and other moves.

Payoff: Doubled BP, equaling the two strongest Poison-type moves without the item/activation and accuracy limitations of either. It is also notably 50% stronger than the next consistent physical Poison-type moves.

Constraints: The moves weaker BP at base would likely require Poison STAB to make it less of a wet noodle before the condition is met. Steel-types being immune to the move entirely and Poison-types being effectively immune to the self-proc activation would present challenges that likely would need to be addressed in ability or movepool stages, especially given both types abundance in the meta.

P.S. I'd also like to throw support behind the Temper/Tantrum duo
 
Hello!
I would like for us to consider Counter/Mirror Coat. I am putting them together as they are conceptually two sides of the same coin, but I want to be clear I'm not advocating for a Pokemon that is designed for or wants to run both. I am simply advocating for whichever of the two we, should it be slated and voted for, discuss and arrive on through the iterative process of building CAP37.

The move's condition: Being hit by a move of the correlated 'split' binary - physical for Counter, special for Mirror Coat. Pretty straightforward, I don't think this is hard to justify as not being conditional or whatever.
The move's consistency of the condition: In my view, reasonably high compared to other potential moves! Pokemon rarely run mixed sets in modern generations, and even those who do, such as Deoxys-S and Kyurem in OU, Enamorus and Garchomp in Monotype, or Archaludon in VGC (wild how many Dragons...!) will often lean in one direction versus the other - Enamorus collects Contrary boosts often in one direction, Archaludon needs to get hit before Body Press really starts outscaling its special attacks, and DeoS relies on the physcial side more for priority cleanup and coverage against specific threats than anything. I think that in the vast majority of cases, you will be facing down a Pokemon who only hits on one side of the coin, forcing them to play a Kingambit/Raging Bolt-styled game of mental skill, but with a majorly different....
Payoff upon activation: We know how Sucker and Clap work. They do a fair bit of damage if the 'mon is trying to attack. Sometimes less, sometimes more, it's a pretty straightforward middling base power move that has increased priority. Counter and Mirror Coat are in some ways a reverse of that, a lowered priority move that returns potentially astonishing damage to the user. Specifically, it deals back double the damage taken to the target.
Relevant constraints: To deal damage, one must take damage. This means that one must be able to take damage, and potentially take damage more than once. This, to me, places the most amount of constraints on Stats, as those will often have outsized impact on whether a Pokemon will survive a hit or not. However, I suspect this will have an unexpectedly outsized impact on Movepool, as it will likely pressure any submissions to have certain defensive options enabling a more longer-term presence of this 'mon, giving the ability to click our move of choice more than just once (or twice but not going off due to fainting, yknow?). I don't expect this to have much constraints on Typing or Ability, though I do think that there can be consideration given in both for concept-friendly/move-friendly options.

I think we have a lot of cool things to explore here. We've seen these moves make less and less presence as the generations have moved on, mostly by nature of growing movepools (both per-Pokemon but also on a Dex-wide scale) and many Pokemon getting more consistent options to run. Conditional moves aren't bad, but for the most part, on the ladder, consistency is rewarded. However, this isn't to say these moves aren't gone entirely from competitive. While searching for Counter was difficult (for context, I searched both Counter and Mirror Coat in the C&C Uploaded Analyses forum), I found the following:
Deo-S has Counter listed as an Other Option in SV AG, discussing it as an option to surprise ESpeed Arceus or whatever comes in after a UTurn from Koraidon
Sawk in SS 1v1 has Counter listed on 3 sets, discovered by a Rillaboom set specifically calling it out as something to be aware of when planning out turns against it.
Mudbray in SV LC has it listed as an Other Option to do damage against strong physical attackers.

Alo's Mirror Coat in OU (and NDOU!) is obviously the big one for it, mentioned in Alo, but also Deo-S, Iron Valiant (not necessarily in-analysis but as part of conversation in the thread as to decision-making), and presumably others. I didn't search terribly far back.
Swampert in AAA mentions it as an option on a RegenVester set as a surprise to those trying to brute force through it.
Blastoise in Draft has it mentioned as a Niche Move (think the equivalent of Other Options, specificlaly mentioning the potential of removing a foe after a Volt Switch from Rotom-W.
In SS 1v1, Venusaur considers running a mixed set just to avoid Mirror Coat from Magnezone or Nihilego. Cresselia in a Skill Swap set warns against Pyukumukyu's Mirror Coat enabling it to undo a major core of its strategy. Meanwhile, in ORAS 1v1, Serp considers running it as a surprise against popular special attackers like Gren, Heatran, or Melo.

One common thread here is that these moves are often "the next best thing", or a surprise tech off the beaten path used to reverse a challenging matchup. However, Alomomola proves this does not need to be the case, and old gens have more examples of consistent running of these moves. These are not moves so hard to use as to be not worth considering or building around, and yet there is relatively little exploration of these moves as the cornerstone of a set. Alo is the guiding star to some extent as to succesful use of one of them, but by nature of what it is clearly is not the only possible angle such a move can be taken in. What does Counter or Mirror Coat look like when it's the keystone of a 'mon, rather than an Other Option or a neat tech?
 
It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but someone's gotta actually formally suggest this move: Beak Blast.

Condition: Always burns any opposing Pokemon who contacts the user before the user damages with the attack. Negative priority helps with this condition.

Consistency: Not as consistent as you might think - it is a lot more likely to burn physical attackers than special attackers (you can burn Draining Kiss Hatterene, but good luck catching a stray Grass Knot), but not all common physical attacks make contact (looking at you, Earthquake, Ivy Cudgel, and Dragon Darts), and Fire-types are immune to burn (you're not burning Hemogoblin).

Payoff: You burn attackers and halve their physical offences, which makes them that much closer to being set-up fodder. Great work!

Constraints: Flying STAB is likely needed on Beak Blast if Balanced Hackmons is any indication (see the infamous "Bomb Squad" BH team in https://pokepast.es/abd482e8aac6ba17 for an example BH team with a Beak Blast user). -3 priority is annoying and requires the mon to be bulky if it feels like damaging anyone with Beak Blast. Burn chance is neutered with too much other status spreading around (e.g. maybe don't make this mon a paralysis spreader or Toxic Spikes user).
 
a fairy did a great job with her writeup on counter and mirror coat - those were two moves I was looking at as well and some off my favorite moves for the concept overall - but I think we should also give some love to one of the forgotten little siblings of counter and mirror coat...

Metal Burst

Condition: User must have taken direct damage prior to unleashing the attack in the same turn; unlike with Counter/Mirror Coat, whether the move is physical or special does not matter.

Consistency: Somewhat more consistent than Counter/Mirror Coat IMO since we aren't guessing between physical or special. Counter and Mirror Coat can only really be used against physical or special attackers respectively, but with Metal Burst you just have to know that you're going to take damage for the move to activate.

Payoff: Huge damage; if you're at full HP and go down to at least half you're basically guaranteed to knock out the opponent from full HP as well, and it's easier to do this against both physical and special attackers!

Constraints: The main issue with Metal Burst is that, unlike Counter/Mirror Coat, it's not a negative priority moves. This means that we have to neuter the hell out of our Speed stat in order to make sure that we can actually get the move off - if we're faster, the move automatically fails. The same restrictions a fairy mentioned for Counter and Mirror Coat also apply.

I also like Stomping Tantrum/Temper Flare and Beak Blast.
 
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Yo, I'm dropping in to spread the good word about the conditional protect moves because I think they're interesting. While there are many and they would likely be used in similar situations, our playstyle after you activate the effect might vary so we would have to pick one to stick with during CA2 I think.

Obstruct/Silk Trap/Burning Bulwark etc

Condition: The condition for all of these moves is the same - it requires something to target the user with a contact move while the user is protected. Honestly not too difficult to understand.

Consistency: Not super consistent given you have to predict when the opponent is going to hit you with a contact move, but there is low risk to it because you are protected from direct damage anyway.

Payoff: This is where these moves vary slightly, but if you manage to get the effect to activate the opponent will have one of its stats dropped or is afflicted with a status condition. The former category allows the user to be more immediately threatening to the opponent, while the latter sticks around and could be beneficial for the team as well as activating certain other moves' effects if we went that direction.

Constraints: Ultimately this category of moves is really just Protect/Detect with an added bonus against contact move users. It requires the opponent to have a contact move on its moveset to work at all, but even if you know this to be true, it might still be tricky to get the effect to activate. Like Protect and Detect, you cannot reliably spam these moves, so you would have to predict correctly. Also, the opponent might switch out or use a non-contact move, but in the latter case the upside is that you still won't take damage. Where these moves differ from Protect and Detect though is letting status moves through, though most of the time this isn't too much of a problem.

The opportunity cost of these moves might be another issue: why run these moves instead of boosting or inflicting status moves manually through Will-o-Wisp/Toxic etc.? My answer to that is this: the move Protect in particular has seen good use for multiple generations - in fact, multiple Pokémon rely on it. I would argue that a better Protect would see consistent play too if we gave CAP37 the tools to abuse it.
 
Amamama said:
I don’t have much to add to the questions but I want to show my support for this line of thought. The conditional move should be conditionally better than other moves when used correctly, with the addition that the condition needs to not be super easily met (say opponent having an item, your mom being level 100, having terrain or weather up). Or to put in other words the activation of the condition for this moves requires skillful use and if used correctly has a payoff that can’t be replicated with other moves.


Double Shock

Condition: This move fails unless the user is Electric Type. The users Electric Type is removed upon successful use (unless the user is Terastalyzed)
Consistency: 100% on first activation, 0% on consecutive activations.
The consistency issues of this move come from having to switch out or terastallize to reload the condition and from having to deal with Pokémon immune to the move. This means the condition is in full control of the player and thus has 100% consistency potential but at the same time forces awkward play patterns, which creates inconsistency.
Payoff: The most powerful physical Electric move. The removal of the electric type can also be situationally helpful.
Constraints: The user will have to be an Electric Type and a physicalist mixed attacker. Also this moves likely benefits from a role that wants to switch a lot (though it might be more interesting on a Mon that wants to stay in for longer periods of time.)

Why do I like this move in particular?
I like the idea of a move that has immense power and a condition that the player can control, but at the same time forces potentially awkward plays from the user, to stay in control of the condition. Reloading the Electric Type through switching can lose the player momentum, while staying in removes your most powerful attack. It also has to play around Ground types soaking up your nuke. Lastly it has an interesting interaction with Terastalliztion, which gives another layer of control while at the same time once again forces the player to make a decision wether this finite resource is worth using in that moment.

TLDR: Double Shock is a conditional move which the player has a lot of agency over activating that condition.
At the same time this agency requires the player to constantly evaluate the cost and payoff of retaining control over the condition this move requires, which introduces a layer of skillful use that I think makes conditional moves actually interesting.
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Since my favourite options have already been suggested, mainly for the sake of completionism, I would like to suggest Burn Up in addition to Double Shock, while at the same time throwing some support behind Double Shock.

Condition:
This move fails unless the user is Fire Type. The user's Fire Type is removed upon successful use (unless the user is Terastalized)

Consistency:
Works once and only once every time the user switches in, unless the user Terastalises Fire. It loses the ability to use Burn Up entirely if it Teras into another typing. At first glance, it might sound too restrictive to make work, but in many cases, it's a more lenient First Impression.

Payoff:
Here’s where Burn Up would differ from Double Shock. Unlike Double Shock, which has little competition in the Physical Electric pool, there are other good Special Fire attacks that Burn Up competes with, notably Flamethrower/Fire Blast for spammable options, and Overheat for nuke and run options. Burn Up is essentially a variant of Overheat that trades not reducing SpA by 2 stages, for removing the user's Fire typing. And there are real and tangible applications for removing the Fire typing that I will explain in a later section.

Constraints:
The biggest constraint here is obviously the fact that we are locked into a Fire type. And I guess the other constraint is that we have to consider how it is going to match up with Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat on a user.

Why it's interesting:
I think there are 3 very distinct ways of abusing Burn Up. The first is one as a pivot, which plays around resetting the removed typing to drop a nuke everytime it comes in, in a way similar to Dragapult with U-turn/Draco; The second is as a Tera nuker, who abuses the interaction with Tera to spam the move without having to reset the typing; The third is one which can make use of losing the typing to bolster it's defensive profile.

The Fire typing is a pretty interesting typing imo. It lowkey has one of the best set of resistances, while also some of the most painful set of weaknesses, so there are strategical benefits of losing the Fire typing. Something like Rotom-H or Heatran, for example, would be happy to leverage the Fire typing's useful set of resistance to switch in, and then discard it to remove the weaknesses associated down the line to better deal with a Water type.

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From a logistical POV, I think the main problem with Burn Up is that it's a dexited move, so I'm not sure if it is allowed. And if it is to be allowed, I'll leave it to the topic leaders if they want to slate it with Double Shock as independent vote options or lump them together to decided on at a later timing.

Edit: dexited is real
But sure, what I have said for Burn Up applies to Double Shock as well, so pretend this entire paragraph is shilling Double Shock lmao.

As an aside, after looking at some of the slates for other moves, I think Eruption variants are probably my favourite (even more so than Burn Up/Double Shock, which offers a lot of extremely interesting build-arounds that Askeia as mentioned in their post earlier; and maybe Beak Blast, tho I do feel less strongly about the latter than I did a week ago.

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As an aside aside, I still can't find a compelling argument to "focus" on Tantrum/Temper. I agree with Guingil and Shock3600 that by nature of being a punish to immunities, these moves are more of a complementary tool rather than being a primary target. The best user of Tantrum/Temper is probably something that doesn't focus on them, but rather one that focuses on a more spammable move and just happen to have these in their learnpool. What is the deciding factor that would make CAP37 more "focused" on Tantrum than Astrolotol for example?
 
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Power Trip

Condition: +20 power for each of the user’s stat boosts.

Consistency: Pitifully weak if used raw. Exponentially strong and even game ending with multiple boosts accrued, breaking through both resists and Unaware.

Payoff: Potentially the strongest sweeping move in the game (besides the ludicrously broken Last Respects, naturally), and unlike its twin Stored Power, Dark has no type immunities, making a solo attack set potentially viable, but also enabling vast move set flexibility and creativity.

Constraints: The user will either have to be a naturally speedy mon able to accrue multiple boosts quickly, one that also utilizes priority, or a bulky booster able to circumvent some or much of the counterplay that challenge other bulky boosters (status, Taunt, Encore, Choice + Trick, Phazing, Pressure stall, etc.).

This mon may or may not be a Dark type. The offensive potential is inherent to the move itself.

Why do I like this move in particular?
Anyone who has played Balanced Hackmons should know how strong Power Trip can be, and potentially allow for a strong sweeper able to clean games if executed correctly. After all, that meta had to ban it! However, our Power Trip abuser need not be broken, and exploring the potential of this move allows a lot of flexibility.

Building around Power Trip need not simply be a different take on the “Demon Mew” archetype of bulky set sweeper. Power Trip draws power from any boost, be it more obvious choices Bulk Up, Curse,
Dragon Dance, Shift Gear, Victory Dance, Weakness Policy, Terrain seeds, more aggressive options like Shell Smash or Fillet Away, or even less synergistic ones like Work Up, Calm Mind, Quiver Dance, Take Heart, Stockpile, Iron Defense, Cotton Guard, Amnesia, etc. etc. etc. if we want, can get weird with it.

It would be up to the community to decide the best way to build a Power Trip focused sweeper in a way that feels satisfying to execute in play, but able to be beaten.
 
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Throwing out some varying levels of support for different proposed moves. Ended up being very very basic analysis oh well
cat111ca said:
I think we should build around stomping tantrum/Temper Flare.
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While I think it's defintely possible to build around either of these moves and see success with it, I don't think these are ever going to be the main focus of the set and would be more of a tech option- I think these are fine but prefer more high payoff moves for our focus.
dex said:
Thunderclap / Sucker Punch
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Think it'd make a good product, but feels pretty explored. Not a bad scenario if we do go here though.
Airola said:
Submission; Hex
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Hex feels pretty explored as well and feel like it'd have less potential than barb barrage but think it'd be fine.
viol and bass said:
Proposing Tera Blast.
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Not sure if it's the most pro-concept, I think it'd be a fine cheeky option. Not my favorite but its okay.

AzothBend said:
Barb Barrage
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My favorite option- not as simple to set up as clicking will-o-wisp first, instead setting up itself. It's both a pain to switch in to but has plentiful checks that constrain your build.
Lectrys said:
It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but someone's gotta actually formally suggest this move: Beak Blast.
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Second favorite option- while its not hard to activate, its great move compression, can make for unconventional tanks/walls, and creates a lot of mindgames for the opponent and player to play around its activation
 
Hi, everyone, I’m going to pop in and clarify something quickly.

When considering options for the slate, I am going to be considering individual moves rather than move pairings or categories (so, for instance, I will be considering Sucker Punch and Thunderclap separately). It is fine to submit moves that all share similar conditions/are effective clones of one another all as one submission but when it comes to voicing support for or arguing for or against particular moves, I’d like to see the conversation be more specific.

Thanks!
 
With this clarification I'm both gonna tag anyone who advocated for multiple moves ( Guingil dex a fairy StarFalcon555 Scizivire ) just as a heads up, but also make the called shot of

Mirror Coat

All of what I said remains true in the original advocacy post, but I would specifically like to see us explore Mirror Coat if we're going off one of the two here. It's seen the most recent genuine success elsewhere in Gen 9, and maybe I'm a bit of a fuddy duddy, but I think the physical side of attacks have enough struggle as is between Intimidate, contact-triggered abilities/items like Static/Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet, the burn status condition, etc etc. Let's give special attackers some pause here. #BringBackFrostbite
 
Of the two, I prefer Thunderclap, so consider that my submission.

So this isn’t a one-liner, I’ll also talk about all the submitted moves so far.

Yep

Beak Blast: I think Beak Blast has the highest potential to see main set usage, and its conditional effect has a general enough trigger that it will see activation in most games, or at least the threat of its burn will be felt in most games. Beak Blast offers strength and utility wrapped in one with an interesting mechanic regarding negative priority that should make for an interesting process.

Barb Barrage: Barb Barrage is also strong enough to see main set usage and is, I think, the most versatile of all the strong conditional moves. The poison chance lends itself to defensive roles while the higher BP conditional effect lends itself to offensive roles. In sum, the move has many avenues available to it and I think it keeps the most open about the process.

Double Shock: Double Shock is cool in that strong physical Electric-type attacks are so rare. There is strength in that feature; when something has a rare quality, it is typically harder for teams to dedicate checks to it. The one-time use aspect of Double Shock is an interesting mechanic that I think has just enough depth to carry the process.

Thunderclap: Thunderclap, in a somewhat similar vein to Double Shock, is a very unique move: it is one of the strongest special priority moves. Strong priority is a generally great asset for any Pokemon, and Thunder Clap's activation condition is another one that will typically come into play most games.

Water Spout: I don't much care for any of the HP-centric moves because I flatly don't think they really qualify for the concept, but if any of them should be considered, I think it should be Water Spout. I think Water Spout is the more interesting of the three just because we have a recent example of an eruption user (Heatran) and we haven't had a real Water Spout user in OU since BW Jellicent. It just feels more unique to the tier than the other two.

Maybe

Stomping Tantrum: I've somewhat soured on Stomping Tantrum and Temper Flare because, while I think it is generally easy to force the usage of the moves (especially Stomping Tantrum), I also think the activation effect for the moves is not worth the benefit. Taking a turn off for what is essentially an extra 75 BP I don't think is a great strategy. Pokemon use these moves mainly because they have no other coverage in those types, and the condition they have to satisfy isn't as easily achieved. I think the moves would see play but their conditions would not be why you run them.

Temper Flare: See above, I think if either of the moves are selected, Stomping Tantrum is the better of the two since Ground-type coverage is pretty much always useful.

Hex: Hex is pretty generally a good move, I just feel like we are very familiar with Hex's play pattern without as much new space. I think it'd make for a fine process, it just doesn't excite me, but that may also just be Dragapult looming which isn't a great reason. I think it'd be a fine inclusion for voting but I probably wouldn't rank it very high. That said, the condition is achievable, the payoff for the cost is strong enough, and it would definitely see play.

Eruption: See Water Spout. I just prefer Water Spout.

Dragon Energy: See Water Spout. I don't really wanna play around immunities with a move like this. Water Spout has fewer to worry about.

Nah

Mirror Coat: I flatly think the counter moves are exceedingly process-constraining at best and unviable at worst. I don't see how you really make a Mirror Coat user that is not in effect just Alomomola+, and even then that mon barely runs the move.

Power Trip: In a similar vein to the HP-centric moves, I don't think Power Trip is particularly concept-relevant. Unlike the HP-centric moves, Power Trip (and Stored Power in case that gets brought up) encourage pretty unhealthy playstyles when maximized. I find the design space with Power Trip to be fairly limited due to this.

Burn Up: Dexited move is dexited

Burning Bulwark: Of all the Protect clones mentioned so far, Burning Bulwark is the most interesting because it actively punishes U-turn, unlike Silk Trap. That said, I don't really like any of the Protect clones. Forcing Protect onto a Pokemon pretty much necessitates Poison Heal, which feels really constraining. I think there's maybe an outside chance it doesn't, but we would really be cutting it close since Protect is rarely a main set move on any Pokemon, even ones that run it for Leftovers recovery.

Silk Trap: See above except this one doesn't punish U-turn and is just generally a bad move.

Obstruct: Dexited move is dexited

Metal Burst: See Mirror Coat except this one KOs even less.

Tera Blast: Tera Blast is the strangest conditional move because, yeah, it really is one. However, I think that Tera Blast really muddies the concept. It makes this process a Tera process and forces the concept to take a back seat. I think it does technically qualify, but I don't think it should be considered because it just completely changes the topic of conversation away from it; also Tera Blast is a pretty difficult move to force usage of outside of literally Porygon-Z.
 
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I know this move has basically already been talked about, but I just wanted to put my 2 cents on it:

Comeuppance

Condition: The user has to be hit by a damaging attack before the move is used. Doesn't work if the user faints before attack is used.

Consistency: Taking damaging attacks is a given for most pokemon on a team, as a team member who doesn't contribute to the team defensively often has less chances to contribute offensively as well. Aside from that, most of the consistency of this move will come from the pokémon's stats, so I'll save that talk for constraints.

Payoff: On the surface, the payoff of Comeuppance is pretty simple: dealing 1.5x the damage the opponent dealt to you. Specifically, this move takes the amount of HP lost, multiplies it by 1.5, and throws it back at the target. Because this is direct HP damage, it is unaffected by any outside modifiers, meaning the opponent has to take the full force of the hit, and depending on our build, that could mean returning huge damage to the enemy, even enough to OHKO a pokemon outright, costing a careless opponent one of their damage dealers.

Against a careful opponent, however, is where the real payoff of this move is though: by threatening an opponents damage right back at them, Comeuppance puts pressure on offensive pokémon without even being clicked. Unless the opponent wishes to gamble a vital offensive piece on their team, they have to play far more passively around the user of the move, allowing this pokemon or its allies to turn the momentum of the battle around.

Constraints:
1) Bulk/HP: Obviously, the bulk to survive attacks is important, but an extremely important and specific detail of that is having very high HP. When you look at this move's sibling, Metal Burst, a common trend among the steel types that learn it is having high defenses, but mediocre or average HP. These pokemon can easily take hits, but the low HP means that the amount of damage they're doing back is pitiful. In order for Comeuppance to be worthwhile, the percentage of damage dealt has to be far, FAR greater than the percentage of damage taken.

2) Speed: Unlike Counter/Mirror Coat, Comeuppance lacks negative priority, meaning if we're too fast, the opposition can get a potshot in for free, so figuring out how to handle those matchups is a vital in making this pokemon successful.

3) Longevity/Recovery: Another problem that plagues many users of Metal Burst and Comeuppance is longevity. Because many lack recovery, the damage they take from switching in over and over again accumulates over time. Eventually, this means that the offensive mons that Comeuppance is supposed to pressure will simply knock out the user once their HP is too low. Compare this to Alomomola, who's regenerator allows it to threaten its Mirror Coat relentlessly throughout a match.
 
Since I never got around to actually suggesting any moves myself, I'd figured I'd chime in here with support for those I personally think would not only fulfill the concept, but would make for a fun/intriguing process and a potentially unique end result.

Beak Blast :sharp beak:
By far, this move is vying for the top spot on my list with the next option I will mention (more on that in a bit). Beak Blast itself does allow CAP 37 to having a reliable, albeit "slow", STAB to still hit the opponent with, but puts the opponent on the offense in terms of deciding to hit 37 and not be burned as a result. While this is a really solid option for us to focus on, I do see the complaints some people have expressed about this just being "generically good" with an added condition of burning those that make contact with 37; however, I think that having the reliability of being able to hit the opponent even if they don't make contact allows for breathing room in terms of making progress on 37's side of the field via chip or just general lack of stagnation. Beak Blast itself does sort of imply 37 to be Flying/x as Flying is not commonly used for coverage, but any variation of that combination has proven its worth (yes even Ice/Flying lol) and so I don't believe the issue of "forcing" us into a typing is a big deal with this.
Barb Barrage :Poison barb:
This and Beak Blast are my 2 personal favorites as I think they both lend themselves to an incredible and interesting process and/or fulfillment of the concept. Barb Barrage does have a bit of a harder time being seen as threatening as 60 BP to start off is rough especially if it is meant to be the main choice for a potential STAB. However, being able to enable the condition on its own allows the user of 37 to have better control over exactly when/where/how you are able to activate the condition of 2x power. Again, as stated with Beak Blast, Poison is usually not seen as coverage so there is an implication of sorts for the potential constraint on the typing stage i.e. Poison/x but I believe that, as I mentioned in Beak Blast, there are enough type combinations to make it worthwhile still to have that discussion when that stage comes along. Poison as a status itself is extremely detrimental to most Pokemon, but does come with the caveat of the process figuring out how to navigate through Steel- and Poison-types or even mons like Garg that are immune to the status which can leave 37 with a dead moveslot.
Double Shock :cell battery:
This was a bit of a dark horse for me as I never thought about this when I originally came up with the concept but the fact of having the condition only activate once while on the field (unless we also try and fulfill the Tera Hog concept with this option lol) makes for an interesting "nuke" of sorts that is a one time only option to barrel through the likes of Arghonaut or Cresceidon. I also think this is definitely the "top tier" choice for an implied typing similar to the former moves mentioned simply because you cannot use the move unless you are at least part Electric-type. I am not as high on this one as the first two, but the process of this particular move, I believe, would result in a one-of-a-kind end result and a fun fulfillment of the concept as well.
:soft sand: Stomping Tantrum/Temper Flare :flame orb:
For these two, I will group them together specifically because no matter which of these two were to be chosen, my thoughts are similar enough. That being said, I love these two strictly because they are fantastic as coverage and I believe that they leave typing open-ended moreso than the previous options. This could make for a Saharaja-like process where we focus on how to complement these moves and their conditional activation by providing a solid typing that would appreciate the coverage either of these moves provide. However, while I personally believe this would be a sick af process, this isn't just my process and I do understand the implications of a move that is not-so-great BP to use as coverage could leave 37 in a lackluster position trying to stay up with handling the metagame’s threats. It could also lock 37 out of higher BP coverage/STAB moves to incentivize the use of these moves which, as previously stated, these moves' types are fantastic coverage options but there are better options if we want coverage to complement 37 and its potential STAB/s.

Lastly, a couple of honorable mentions go to Sucker Punch and Thunderclap as both are again in a similar boat themselves a la Temper/Tantrum but I am tuckered out from writing the other 4 and I want to mention I do support these albeit not as much as the other 4.
 
Was originally gonna go over everything submitted, but I decided against it since I sort of haven't really had enough time to get around to it, however, I really wanted to get one thing across surrounding the move Tera Blast.

I'm very adamant against this move's inclusion for one simple reason: It's an incredibly contentious move in OU, and in the event (Albeit a seemingly unlikely one) that it gets banned mid-process, I think it would end in complete disaster. I cannot stress enough how bad it would be for a concept to be completely nullified mid-process, as it would either make us completely lose our direction or require a near restart of the process, both of which are entirely unacceptable outcomes. Looking past that, I was originally gonna say that if somebody could convince me that I'm being unreasonably paranoid about that happening, that this move would be fine. However dex's post changed my mind even if that were to happen (Since I'm not really a fan of wasting the potential of this concept to just turn it into talking about Tera). TL;DR Avoid like the plague.
 
Hello folks, I’m going to be sharing the preliminary slate and a few moves that are “on the bubble”, so to speak, that I’d like to see more discussion on if possible.

Prelim slate:
Beak Blast
Barb Barrage
Stomping Tantrum
Thunderclap

On the Bubble:
Burning Bulwark
Mirror Coat
Double Shock
Temper Flare / Sucker Punch / Infernal Parade (clones of moves that are on the slate — any important tradeoffs?)

I’ll probably keep this thread open for 48 more hours before we move to a poll. Thanks for your suggestions so far, now let’s get over the finish line on this!
 
I think the first three options on the slate are great, but thunderclap I am not sure about. As far as sucker punch goes, I hope we can all agree that it has been very well explored in pokemon already. I mean, look at current sv ou with literally the greatest sucker punch mon of all time. And is special sucker punch actually, like, meaningfully different than physical sucker punch? I think we may be mistaking "unique" for "interesting" here. Cool that it's a different typing too I guess. But again, does that actually make it interesing, or does it just make it unique? SV CAP is also insanely priority-centric as is; we know pretty well how priority works and why it's good. "Special sucker punch" just does not strike me as something with enough meat on its bone to carry an entire CAP process on its back. I think we would make a neat pokemon but be very bored for the next three months. Maybe I'm in the minority on this one, dunno. Replace it with double shock and/or water spout IMO.
 
Just to clarify, if Stomping Tantrum is on the slate, does that mean Stomping Tantrum + Temper Flare are on the slate, or just Stomping Tantrum? The first feels like it would make more sense to me because it leaves more flexibility in typing stage, but it is hard to interpret the presence of clones in the "On the Bubble" section if that is the case.

Agree w/ spoo on Thunderclap. Double Shock (or clones) and Water Spout (or Eruption, Dragon Energy sucks) would be cool.
 
I also agree with taking Thunderclap off, it's difficult to think of an interesting direction we can take that hasn't been done already with it or Sucker Punch, and its hard to think of a mon that abuses Thunderclap better than the only one that has it. I'll also say to replace it with Double Shock and mayyybe Water Spout and friends, though I also am curious how Mirror Coat/Counter would look on the slate.
 
Support:
Beak Blast - Everybody has given their praise for the move, its pretty good and very fun to play around with.
Barb Barrage - Poison stabs tend to be either just alright or very inconsistent, Barb can be a fun move to explore .
Double Shock / Burn Up - Shocked to not see one of the type removing moves in the slate, given how many unique interactions you can explore with type removal.

On the Fence:
Stomping Tantrum - Honestly I feel like Temper Flare is a more interesting move than Stomping Tantrum, so I would argue about its inclusion on the slate over it.
Water Spout / Eruption - Hp moves I feel aren't consistent enough to warrant a process. I could be wrong but to me they work better as tech used to make surprising sets (aka Specs Molluxx.)

Against:
Sucker Punch / Thunder Clap - We know these moves work. The reason we know this is that in SV alone each move has the most perfect abusers for the move in Gambit and Bolt, no need to reinvent the wheel.
 
A couple of quick thoughts about a bunch of the moves on offer:

Beak Blast - I think this is the safest option we can explore -- there has been discussion on if Beak Blast is something we can interestingly build around since it is a relatively spammable safe 100 BP Flying STAB option that doesn't incur penalties like Brave Bird. It is a great answer for something like Rev which cannot deny the Burn with Covert Cloak like Rev can against Ramnarok. I would rate it a strong 8/10.

Barb Barrage - I love this move in theory, having a 100% acc Gunk Shot when the target is Statused AND a chance to Status the target is a good deal. However, 60 BP most of the time is not exactly very threatening, and while it has synergy with moves such as Stomping Tantrum and Temper Flare, it is easy to argue that something like Nasty Plot Pecharunt achieves the same goal. Of course, Pecharunt is not exactly the paragon of an endgame cleaner, so I think there is still something to explore. I believe it to be a 6/10 route.

Stomping Tantrum / Temper Flare - These moves are commonly paired with a move like Barb Barrage as a Steel switch-in punish. Most will argue that the 150 BP of either move when empowered is too inconsistent compared to ol' reliable Earthquake or Flare Blitz. However, I think focusing on something like Barb Barrage is too narrow in scope -- moves such as Encore is a great way to activate the fail condition required to activate Stomping Tantrum / Temper Flare. There are a lot of different routes to take with these two moves and I do feel that there are fun avenues in how a Pokemon that takes advantage of either move can meaningfully contribute to the metagame. 8/10.

Thunderclap / Sucker Punch - As others have stated, this move has been thoroughly explored by canon Pokemon such as Kingambit and Raging Bolt, both of which feel as if they are the best possible users of their respective moves. Furthermore, it is worth noting that Hemogoblin and Revenankh entirely deny usage of Thunderclap / Sucker Punch, as Extreme Speed and Triage both have higher Priorities. I just do not believe it to be an interesting avenue. 2/10.

Double Shock / Burn Up - I am a huge fan of both of these moves. The dynamics these moves have on both a defensive and offensive level is fascinating, and I think it would be really fun to emulate a Pokemon like Hydrapple that functions as both a defensive linchpin and a potent wallbreaker. Its dynamic with Terastallization is great to explore and I strongly believe a Pokemon that takes full advantage of either move has great potential. 9/10.

Burning Bulwark - I'm voting for Beak Blast lol. 1/10.

Water Spout / Eruption / Dragon Energy - I think these moves are fine, I'm just afraid that the metagame contains many Pokemon that switches in way too easily into these moves and there is not enough avenues to fire them off except in an endgame sweeper context. I do like potential synergy with Pokemon such as Alomomola, but to be fair, what Pokemon does not like having Alomomola as a cleric partner? 5/10.
 
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Support:
Barb Barrage - meaningfully different from Hex and un(der)explored by the single 'mon that gets it
Double Shock - has a important niche as a powerful phys. Electric-type move and a very unique condition; interacts well with Tera
Stomping Tantrum/Temper Flare - both have merits individually and do different enough things in the meta

Maybe:
Beak Blast - just not the biggest fan; feels limiting in terms of how its best implemented
Burn Up - points for sharing Double Shock's condition, but has a much harder time finding a niche
Water Spout/Eruption/etc - fairly well explored, but have fallen off in recent gens; could possibly be railroaded into a very specific implementation

Against:
Thunderclap/Sucker Punch - as most have already stated, they're thoroughly well-explored
Hex/Infernal Parade - Hex is well-explored and Infernal Parade is too similar to offer meaningful distinction
Burning Bulwark/Baneful Bunker/etc - again not too much a fan of the condition and Protect moves are hardly the meta-staples they once were
Mirror Coat/Counter/etc - probably just not very viable
 
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earthflax said:
Hello folks, I’m going to be sharing the preliminary slate and a few moves that are “on the bubble”, so to speak, that I’d like to see more discussion on if possible.

Prelim slate:
Beak Blast
Barb Barrage
Stomping Tantrum
Thunderclap

On the Bubble:
Burning Bulwark
Mirror Coat
Double Shock
Temper Flare / Sucker Punch / Infernal Parade (clones of moves that are on the slate — any important tradeoffs?)

I’ll probably keep this thread open for 48 more hours before we move to a poll. Thanks for your suggestions so far, now let’s get over the finish line on this!
Click to expand...
I'm gonna shill Double Shock a bit because Burn Up is dexited it really rewards good skill expression. I have talked about it in my Burn Up suggestion, but I'll expand on it in terms of Double Shock instead.
escarlata said:
Why it's interesting:
I think there are 3 very distinct ways of abusing Burn Up. The first is one as a pivot, which plays around resetting the removed typing to drop a nuke everytime it comes in, in a way similar to Dragapult with U-turn/Draco; The second is as a Tera nuker, who abuses the interaction with Tera to spam the move without having to reset the typing; The third is one which can make use of losing the typing to bolster it's defensive profile.

The Fire typing is a pretty interesting typing imo. It lowkey has one of the best set of resistances, while also some of the most painful set of weaknesses, so there are strategical benefits of losing the Fire typing. Something like Rotom-H or Heatran, for example, would be happy to leverage the Fire typing's useful set of resistance to switch in, and then discard it to remove the weaknesses associated down the line to better deal with a Water type.
Click to expand...
As mentioned earlier, I think I would classify good users of Double Shock (hereby referred to as dsCAP) into 3 archetypes:

1. The hit-and-runner
Double Shock is even more suitable as a hit-and-run nuker than Burn Up because Electric types are often compatible with a myriad of pivoting moves, and I'm not just talking about Volt Switch (because the STAB on it is removed). This is really interesting in the typing/stats phases because we have to decide if we want dsCAP to have an offensive pivoting move or a utility one. I'll not go into too much depth due to poll jumping, but Electric naturally has a lot of type pairings that work really well with any pivoting move that can be explored in the later phases.

2. The Tera-hog
What makes dsCAP an interesting Tera-hog is that while Tera makes Double Shock spammable, Double Shock also strongly discourages the user from using Tera to go into another type. This means that if we decide that dsCAP should not have certain type coverage, it won't get it through Tera Blast either. So we are allowed to have very fine control of what we want or don't want to beat.

3. The Type-shedder
This is the archetype that dsCAP does worse than Burn Up. Unlike the Fire type, Electric types have less nuanced defensive matchups. While a Burn Up user shedding its Fire type is essentially a new mon defensively, an Electric type shedding its Electric type is basically the same mon without the Ground weakness (this is why I'd like Burn Up more if it is allowed). However, there are still things that we can do in the typing/stats section to make this work. Iron Hands would be a good example of something who can make use of this.

What I really like about Double Shock (and Burn Up) is that each of the archetypes uses their typing differently.
The hit-and-runner wants to make the best use of both its types​
The Tera-hog leans towards the Electric type, while still wanting good coverage moves to cover bad matchups​
The Type-shredder leans towards the secondary typing.​
And there are ways that all 3 archetypes can be fulfilled by the same mon, which I just think is neat.

Edit: if Burn Up isn’t actually dexited, I’d like it more than Double Shock because of the defensive nuances, but else Double Shock is still very interesting
 
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Temper/Tantrum
Please no, these moves are not good enough nor have nearly consistent enough application to create a pokemon around. be realistic.

Beak blast
I think this is a really fun and novel move and I'd love to be able to use it in cap. however, there is honestly very little to discuss once its chosen, its a very strong move that most pokemon would be happy to run, yet the answer of what the ideal user would look like can be answered in 5 seconds. I think the process that follows would just be going through the motions.

Bulwark
eh idk doesnt seem that appealing

Barb barrage
I think this move is way too simple with little depth to explore

Thunderclap/Sucker
is it novel and exciting? No. But have we seen it fully explored and optimised? No not at all. I think we could have an incredibly interesting process exploring either of these options, there is a lot of mechanic depth, move interactions and risk reward management that I feel is being overlooked in this discussion.

Double shock/Burn up
I like these a lot, its novel like beak blast but without as clear cut solution while still being rewarding enough moves to design around.

Water spout/Eruption/Dragon energy
I really like these aswell, there are so many different directions you could take it.
 
Steam Buns said:
Temper/Tantrum
Please no, these moves are not good enough nor have nearly consistent enough application to create a pokemon around. be realistic
Click to expand...
The problem with your statement is that everything else isn't actually a design exercise. Beak blast is a good move with a condition to be better. Barb barrage is a hex clone in behavior even with differences. Temper flame/Stomping tantrum are wholely unique in design space, THAT'S why I believe they're the best. Eruption/water spout/dragon energy are also unique and GREAT options.
Also their VERY consistent because it literally make others move inconsistency more consistent.
And be realistic we can make a mon not just viable but broken if our only limitation is one move
 
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