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Tournament National Dex Ubers Team Tour - Format Discussion Thread

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National Dex Leader
approved by Bobsican and entrocefalo

Hi everybody! I’m hoping this thread is a pleasant surprise! Last year we hosted our first circuit and it surpassed our wildest expectations with around 200 participants over the course of the year! Following this, the council discussed any changes that should be made in 2026. Nothing ended up changing, but during this discussion MirrorSaMa suggested a National Dex Ubers PL. After ironing out some details internally, we are looking for community feedback before finalizing everything! We are blessed to have the wonderful Murphy Lawden hosting this tour and it is currently planned to start sometime in March with the exact date TBD.



Set in Stone

  • This tournament will be 6x6*
  • 2 Managers
  • Top 4 teams make playoffs
*Doubles Ubers will be discussed, but otherwise probably 6x6

Discussion Points

The tour being called ‘National Dex Ubers PL’ is not locked in and we are open to suggestions, but the main purpose of this thread is finalize the slots and tiers featured. Three slots will be SV ND Ubers, with one potentially being Bo3. The formats below have been discussed for a slots and we'd love to hear your input!
  • SS ND Ubers
  • SV ND Ubers UU
  • SV ND Ubers Draft
 
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Gonna keep it short:

SV
SV
SV Bo3
SS/Doubles
UU
Draft


I don't see why we shouldn't do Bo3, I'm confident some people would prefer that slot over Bo1 at least cuz its less MU fishy for those who get annoyed by that.

SS NDUbers I'm kinda biased for, even if its really cut and dry I still think its a nice addition, not really having anything "broken" in the tier, and probably being more appealing for those that want to use Xerneas or those that hate Terastalization etc etc. Main issue is the lack of any mainers though, even if this tier is in its infant stage tbh.

BUT... Doubles is fine too.

UU is actually pretty dynamic and fun. It's playerbase is bigger than I thought it was NGL, so there's definitely a lot of options to choose from.
Draft is also fire.

btw im prob not managing cuz im too busy for that; playing probably but exam season will prob kick in by time this tour starts RIP; this also applies to NDWC if team UK Is wondering
 
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Hi all! Just dropping by to give my thoughts. First of all, really cool that this is happening. I've not been quiet about my frustrations with the state of the metagame at points (though fwiw I think the meta is actually decent right now), but this tier and community is great and deserves something like this. I'm definitely interested in managing and if I don't I'll definitely play.

As far as the tour iteself, my tier (DNU) recently ran a 6x6 PL so I have some experience planning something like this.

I think a good guiding question for discussion here is what is the purpose of NDUPL? Is it meta development for the main tier? Is it for providing the highest level play for ND Ubers? Is it an opportunity to give some of the subtiers high level play? Answering this question will help determine what tiers we want to include.

I think using DNUPL's slots as a model works well here. This was 4x main tier, 1x UU, 1x Doubles. I know ND Doubles Ubers wasn't mentioned in the main post but I'd like to vouch for it anyways as it is a really fun tier that I know would pull some signups. Draft and SS I'm not opposed to including but don't feel super strongly about.

4x main tier slots is really cool because it really lets an entire team come in to dig in on one tier. For one, it's community building. It brought people who never really talked together on teams to brainstorm ideas for four slots. In DNUPL this led to some really cool metagame developments as different teams ended up focusing on different strategies; whereas my Punk Girl Pikipeks leaned hard into offenses, the Waterloo Wooloos innovated Rain, and the Hoothoot Honeymoon focused on fat balances. This is a really cool opportunity to see how different strategies can develop based off of the players on the team. One slot for UU and Doubles also lets players from different backgrounds get chances to participate while still having enough draw for main tier players to contribute. One SV slot being Bo3 is also fine yeh dont have strong feelings there

With that said, I think it's also completely arguable that having 3 slots accomplishes effectively the same thing while still letting another tier in; whether this is Draft, SS, or something else. Between the two I'm partial to Draft befween the two because it's hype in team tours and I'm not convinced in SS being PL-ready, but it's probably at least workable.

Also, for name, don't overthink it; National Dex Ubers Premier League just makes sense for what we're going for here.

Really excited to see where this goes!
 
I think usually for team tours with 6 teams, the format that top 4 teams would qualify the playoffs is not very competitive in the regular season. It's either a three-stage format (in stage 2, top 4 teams play another round with each other to decide the two teams in the final, but it might be too complex) or a final between the No.1 seed and the winner of No.2 vs No.3.
Also, a prize pool for such non-CA team tour would always be great.
 
Said I'd edit the original post, but with a suggestions and questions it felt best to make a full one. So my thoughts on the individual tiers are:

SS ND Ubers - I don't dislike SS ND Ubers, I also don't love it. That being said, my personal opinion doesn't really matter. What matters is whether or not the tier's playerbase does. The thing is... SS ND Ubers doesn't really have a distinct playerbase. There was the kickoff tour and then the seasonal last year had 16 signups. On top of that, pretty much every person that signed up for that regularly signs up for SV tours as well. This isn't to say it shouldn't be included, but that doing so does come with some level of risk. It isn't a bad or unplayable metagame, but it is dead at the moment. For context, it has its own channel in the ND Ubers discord and the last time it was used to discuss the metagame was during that seasonal (August). The metagame would definitely benefit from a slot, but is also difficult to justify if the community doesn't express interest in it. I'm just neutral on it personally.

SV ND Ubers UU - ND Ubers UU does have a semi-active community that is more than capable of filling a slot. It is an easy include from my perspective. It is also the current spotlight ladder so give that a whirl!

ND Ubers Draft - Draft was included for the first time in NDCL and it has been a success by every metric. Things went incredibly smoothly behind the scenes thanks to Hacker's assistance! The circumstances are similar and the only issue I see with ND Ubers Draft is potentially setting it up. If that can be done then there is no reason ND Ubers Draft shouldn't get a slot imo.

I think a good guiding question for discussion here is what is the purpose of NDUPL? Is it meta development for the main tier? Is it for providing the highest level play for ND Ubers? Is it an opportunity to give some of the subtiers high level play? Answering this question will help determine what tiers we want to include.
Everybody probably has at least slightly differing opinions, so I'm only speaking for myself. Last year we did a ghosting tour around this time that was a fun community thing. The circuit was success with a lot more participants than anybody was expecting. This is the spiritual successor to that and the trios tours we've had previously as the community is seemingly large enough to host a 'proper' team tour. The primary purpose of this tour is for the community to have some fun. So long as that happens I'd consider it a success.

Generally, I'm a pretty big proponent of collaboration between different areas of Smogon when possible. There is room to include additional tiers / formats so why not imo? Is this tournament going to feature the highest level of play for ND Ubers? Probably not, but that isn't a bad thing as long as the level of play is high enough. The level of play is somewhat subjective at the end of the day. For some people it is solely the names in the draft pool, for others it is the actual games. At the end of the day I just want people to have a fun time playing the tiers featured. I don't care if they're a long time mainer or some outsider giving the tier a shot as long as they have fun.

I think using DNUPL's slots as a model works well here. This was 4x main tier, 1x UU, 1x Doubles. I know ND Doubles Ubers wasn't mentioned in the main post but I'd like to vouch for it anyways as it is a really fun tier that I know would pull some signups. Draft and SS I'm not opposed to including but don't feel super strongly about.
I mentioned this on discord, but ND Doubles Ubers was overlooked in the council discussions which is surprising given ND Mono Ubers was brought up. I've reached out to ND Doubles leadership to get their opinion on including it and would personally like to if they give the go ahead. It is a cool tier with a large enough playerbase for a slot.

I think usually for team tours with 6 teams, the format that top 4 teams would qualify the playoffs is not very competitive in the regular season. It's either a three-stage format (in stage 2, top 4 teams play another round with each other to decide the two teams in the final, but it might be too complex) or a final between the No.1 seed and the winner of No.2 vs No.3.
Also, a prize pool for such non-CA team tour would always be great.
The playoff format can and will be discussed. I'm not personally married to anything in particular. A prize pool would be great, but who is going to fund it? Last year I chipped in roughly $600 into prizes for ND Ubers tours and I'm not particularly keen to do that again. What is the purpose of a prize pool? Pressuring anybody to contribute to one is obviously a non starter. If someone wants to for whatever reason then sure. However, if the purpose is to attract people from outside of the community then it requires a deceptively large amount of money to do that. Sure a $300 prize pool sounds great, but that is going to be split between 10ish people and if the money is your incentive are you really going to spend a couple of months learning and playing a new tier for $30?

There are some things we could offer such as a unique role on discord or maybe something in the NDOT room? Any and all suggestions are welcome, but a cash prize likely isn't happening. If it made a difference I could offer $50 or something to the winners, but once you split that up you can't even buy a footlong these days.
 
I think this would be hype as hell even if we can't get a prize. I think we just don't play pokemon for the sake of playing pokemon enough on this website and that's quite sad, and i don't think this tour not getting a prize would be the end of the world
 
SV
SV
SV
SV
SV
SV

The tour should be a place that helps develop the overall playerpool and perception around ND Ubers to benefit higher echelon tournaments such as NDCL or NDPL. There's a lot of people in the ND Ubers community that would like a chance to get "serious" tournament play but don't since PL, FL, and CL is one slot each. 24 total players isn't really a lot and it becomes pretty closed off in tours like PL and CL where the skill floor is raised higher than what most managers would be comfortable with if they were to take a chance on a less proven player. This essentially means that, realistically as a new player, you only have 8 slots in FL.

Doubles, Draft, SS, and UU are cute but they don't really solve the problem of players not getting a chance to prove themselves. It actually makes it harder since it turns attention away from the core ubers playerpool in question.

To use sami's proposal as an example of this issue

SV
SV
SV Bo3
SS/Doubles
UU
Draft

Half of the slots are taken by alt tiers with their own pool of players, but these tiers have little stock in other NatDex Tournaments, if any at all. 3*6 is only 18 slots. Best of 3 would more or less incentivize bringing someone who is an extremely well known good player (thinking Swas, Entrocefalo, etc) so you can't really take chances there. This would mean that there's only really 12 slots to play around with if you're a less proven player trying to compete. This doesn't seem sufficient at all.

Additionally; Ubers UU, Doubles, and Draft all have other avenues of play and do not need this tour for metagame development. SS Ubers doesn't but it would have zero value anywhere on Smogon except for this singular tournament and circuit.

6*6 for 36 SV Ubers slots would maximize the amount of metagame development, playerpool development, and player retention. Which I feel gives the tour a greater purpose than just giving sub-tiers some extra playtime. It is definitely more than possible for this tour to supply 36 starters and 18 subs. To say otherwise would have me question why this tour is even a thing.

I don't really know what I would say regarding Bo3 inclusion.
 
Don't have much to voice other than agreeing with what Runo already said. Other tiers are barely existing and don't bring much value, and even if something like National Dex Ubers UU has a place in NDAMPL. You'd rather give more opportunity to develop the SV playerbase when you consider the fact there aren't many solid playing options in this tier that interact with the community in stuff like NDPL. Also if we're doing SV only then definitely don't need Bo3
 
SV
SV
SV
SV
SV
SV

The tour should be a place that helps develop the overall playerpool and perception around ND Ubers to benefit higher echelon tournaments such as NDCL or NDPL. There's a lot of people in the ND Ubers community that would like a chance to get "serious" tournament play but don't since PL, FL, and CL is one slot each. 24 total players isn't really a lot and it becomes pretty closed off in tours like PL and CL where the skill floor is raised higher than what most managers would be comfortable with if they were to take a chance on a less proven player. This essentially means that, realistically as a new player, you only have 8 slots in FL.

Doubles, Draft, SS, and UU are cute but they don't really solve the problem of players not getting a chance to prove themselves. It actually makes it harder since it turns attention away from the core ubers playerpool in question.

To use sami's proposal as an example of this issue

SV
SV
SV Bo3
SS/Doubles
UU
Draft

Half of the slots are taken by alt tiers with their own pool of players, but these tiers have little stock in other NatDex Tournaments, if any at all. 3*6 is only 18 slots. Best of 3 would more or less incentivize bringing someone who is an extremely well known good player (thinking Swas, Entrocefalo, etc) so you can't really take chances there. This would mean that there's only really 12 slots to play around with if you're a less proven player trying to compete. This doesn't seem sufficient at all.

Additionally; Ubers UU, Doubles, and Draft all have other avenues of play and do not need this tour for metagame development. SS Ubers doesn't but it would have zero value anywhere on Smogon except for this singular tournament and circuit.

6*6 for 36 SV Ubers slots would maximize the amount of metagame development, playerpool development, and player retention. Which I feel gives the tour a greater purpose than just giving sub-tiers some extra playtime. It is definitely more than possible for this tour to supply 36 starters and 18 subs. To say otherwise would have me question why this tour is even a thing.

I don't really know what I would say regarding Bo3 inclusion.
Why should more SV slots come at the expense of other tiers? If there is enough ndubers players to fill 6 slots then you can just expand the number of slots, especially for doubles and draft as their playerbase don't overlap with ndubers' playerbase.

In my opinion, more tiers also contribute to making this tournament more hype & engaging, which is a more subjective consideration of course but i feel like we are kinda missing the point of being on this website if we are trying to optimise our tournaments to maximise metagame dev / etc at the expense of making the tour fun to participate in and watch, esp with two of these tiers bringing people from other sections. This is of course just my own perception, but i think having the tour being 6 times the same tier would be very boring.

NDUbers is already featured in pl, cl, fl and even has its own circuit, and with this tour adding at least 18 ubers slots so i think we are already good in terms of places to feature metagame development and opportunities for new players to shine. But again, if you think that's not enough and that we would get enough players to fill 24 or even 36 ndubers slots, why are we not going for a 8x8 or 10x10 tournament instead of cutting other tiers?
 
the problem I have with having multiple formats here is like... how many people can even play them? shit like Natdex Ubers uu isn't playable on ladder, so there's going to be like five people with experience in it. Learning a format takes time, and a fair bit of time at that. The lack of development in the meta might result in some neat surprises, but as a competition, there's only going to be a handful of people with any chance of wining. If you put someone who has only ever played one format and forced them to play in a different format against someone who already knows the format, even if they have a week or two to learn the outcome is going to be pretty obvious, and that's before factoring in that it's going to be hard to even practice this.

If my understanding of this tournament is correct, every format being played has to have at least one person who plays that per team. So either this heavily limits the amount of teams in this, or most of the people playing this format will have no idea what they're doing. And for those that do know what they're doing, they basically have no choice but to be the player for that format, because there's probably no one else on their team that can.

Hopefully there's something I'm missing here. It's exceptionally likely everything I said was utter nonsense and I have no idea what's going on, and I hope that's the case because this seems like a very very bad idea.
 
i'd like to see inclusion of national dex doubles ubers. While i am not a prominent player there I do really enjoy the tier and it had a lot of support during the tour + when ladder was active. i think a lot of development can be made and resources were just revamped. i don't have anything else to say but include dubers
 
the problem I have with having multiple formats here is like... how many people can even play them? shit like Natdex Ubers uu isn't playable on ladder, so there's going to be like five people with experience in it. Learning a format takes time, and a fair bit of time at that. The lack of development in the meta might result in some neat surprises, but as a competition, there's only going to be a handful of people with any chance of wining. If you put someone who has only ever played one format and forced them to play in a different format against someone who already knows the format, even if they have a week or two to learn the outcome is going to be pretty obvious, and that's before factoring in that it's going to be hard to even practice this.

If my understanding of this tournament is correct, every format being played has to have at least one person who plays that per team. So either this heavily limits the amount of teams in this, or most of the people playing this format will have no idea what they're doing. And for those that do know what they're doing, they basically have no choice but to be the player for that format, because there's probably no one else on their team that can.

Hopefully there's something I'm missing here. It's exceptionally likely everything I said was utter nonsense and I have no idea what's going on, and I hope that's the case because this seems like a very very bad idea.
It has a ladder right now though.
 
the problem I have with having multiple formats here is like... how many people can even play them? shit like Natdex Ubers uu isn't playable on ladder, so there's going to be like five people with experience in it. Learning a format takes time, and a fair bit of time at that. The lack of development in the meta might result in some neat surprises, but as a competition, there's only going to be a handful of people with any chance of wining. If you put someone who has only ever played one format and forced them to play in a different format against someone who already knows the format, even if they have a week or two to learn the outcome is going to be pretty obvious, and that's before factoring in that it's going to be hard to even practice this.

If my understanding of this tournament is correct, every format being played has to have at least one person who plays that per team. So either this heavily limits the amount of teams in this, or most of the people playing this format will have no idea what they're doing. And for those that do know what they're doing, they basically have no choice but to be the player for that format, because there's probably no one else on their team that can.

Hopefully there's something I'm missing here. It's exceptionally likely everything I said was utter nonsense and I have no idea what's going on, and I hope that's the case because this seems like a very very bad idea.
Learning formats is entirely doable and happens all the time in smaller premier leagues. As a 3x manager in Solomods Premier League we have new players come in every year in every single tier, and many of them end up having good seasons, though there are usually a couple big name players who flop. The best way to develop a tier is to have good players get their hands on it. Some of them will heavily contribute and may end up sticking around the tier they were slotted in. This is not a good reason to leave out side metas.

Past that: I actually do, to a degree, agree with Runo's point; I am not a fan of any proposition that has less than 3 slots of main tier. I think 6x main tier no side tiers is extreme but there are good reasons to have the majority of this tour be SV slots. If we think that all 3 of Doubles, UU, and Draft can support a slot (which I personally do; I get the hesitation on UU though), I see no reason why we don't have the playerbase to do 6x8 instead. That'd leave 5 slots per team for main NatDex Ubers; 30 starters. Seasonals regularly pull more notable players (look at this stacked Winter Seasonal for reference--players such as entro, R8, and Squeeby are all already in loser's or eliminated). That still leaves room for a couple subs per team as PLs typically have more pull than a no-prize Seasonal.

SV
SV
SV
SV
SV
UU
Doubles
Draft

If we insist on 6 slots, cut a SV and probably UU.
 
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