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At this point I think being positive about Modern Pokemon Discourse is the actual unpopular opinion, Scarlet and Violet / Legends Z-A are a lot of fun and show the franchise still has good ideas (even when crunched to oblivion).
I overall liked SV but also played the game after the fact on the fixed Switch 2 version. If I played on launch I could totally imagine having a completely different opinion because the performance is just that awful. Hell, I know a guy who played only on Switch 1 and he (rightfully) complained about it.
At this point I think being positive about Modern Pokemon Discourse is the actual unpopular opinion, Scarlet and Violet / Legends Z-A are a lot of fun and show the franchise still has good ideas (even when crunched to oblivion).
But you can't just LIKE modern Pokemon anymore because if you do you'll be branded as braindead slop-eating consumer sheeple and that's very bad!!! You can't enjoy things that are rushed!!!!
It’s sort of a weird dual-reality though because while I think this is certainly the case within fandom circles, the games continue to find enormous success with the general audience — more so, even, than in any other era besides Pokémania. So there must be tons of people out there enjoying the games still; they just aren’t the people talking about them online.
I also think Gamers™ in general have developed a terribly obnoxious habit of coopting (otherwise salient) anticapitalist language as a quick and easy means of imbuing their grievances with a sense of legitimacy and principled concern. But not every fucking issue comes down to these games being owned by billion-dollar corporations; the reality of game development is a lot more complicated than that, and pointing that out isn’t inherently some kind of defense for the capitalist status quo.
If BDSP had simply included the content from Platinum instead of arbitrarily leaving it out, I think people would be a lot more favorable toward them. The art style would always put some people off, and the way that affection bonuses are handled would still suck, but the fundamental brief of “Platinum with QOL and no HMs” would be a winner in the eyes of many.
I overall liked SV but also played the game after the fact on the fixed Switch 2 version. If I played on launch I could totally imagine having a completely different opinion because the performance is just that awful. Hell, I know a guy who played only on Switch 1 and he (rightfully) complained about it.
It’s sort of a weird dual-reality though because while I think this is certainly the case within fandom circles, the games continue to find enormous success with the general audience — more so, even, than in any other era besides Pokémania. So there must be tons of people out there enjoying the games still; they just aren’t the people talking about them online.
Ngl i feel theres some confirmation bias at play here because the people who like the games are talking about them, you can see it pretty easily on subreddits or social media just people posting pictures of their teams or making art or covers. Id hardly call liking the games or being positive about them unpopular espically for a game series as mainstream as pokemon and is true for the haters as well, everyone has that one nagging issue with pokemon that they'll forever curse game freak for, thats why this whole thread was made.
We complain all the time about everyone being too negative on these games but if you look at the grander picture thats not really true, sure people have their grevanices but thats just natural, doesnt mean they hate the games, espically if they can still find some enjoyment out of them whether it be in-game or just with the community.
Of course everyone will seem negative if you just dismiss the people who arent.
It’s sort of a weird dual-reality though because while I think this is certainly the case within fandom circles, the games continue to find enormous success with the general audience — more so, even, than in any other era besides Pokémania. So there must be tons of people out there enjoying the games still; they just aren’t the people talking about them online.
I also think Gamers™ in general have developed a terribly obnoxious habit of coopting (otherwise salient) anticapitalist language as a quick and easy means of imbuing their grievances with a sense of legitimacy and principled concern. But not every fucking issue comes down to these games being owned by billion-dollar corporations; the reality of game development is a lot more complicated than that, and pointing that out isn’t inherently some kind of defense for the capitalist status quo.
If BDSP had simply included the content from Platinum instead of arbitrarily leaving it out, I think people would be a lot more favorable toward them. The art style would always put some people off, and the way that affection bonuses are handled would still suck, but the fundamental brief of “Platinum with QOL and no HMs” would be a winner in the eyes of many.
BDSP didn't include Platinum's content because Platinum is a fundamentally different game its not just DP with extra stuff like Crystal was to GS. It's the same reason ORAS didn't include anything from Emerald, but people don't notice that because ORAS still had all the Pokémon added since Gen 3.
BDSP completely unchanged aside from the presence of the 4 generations of Pokémon introduced later would not have any of the complaints it receives now.
I also think Gamers™ in general have developed a terribly obnoxious habit of coopting (otherwise salient) anticapitalist language as a quick and easy means of imbuing their grievances with a sense of legitimacy and principled concern. But not every fucking issue comes down to these games being owned by billion-dollar corporations; the reality of game development is a lot more complicated than that, and pointing that out isn’t inherently some kind of defense for the capitalist status quo.
So hot take, I think there's a clear reason for this. It's because gamers as a subculture are anti-establishment, conspiratorial, and have a persecution complex. Anti-capitalism appeals to all three of these elements by giving a figure to be "the man" and a villain who seeks to exploit and profit off of them.
Ngl i feel theres some confirmation bias at play here because the people who like the games are talking about them, you can see it pretty easily on subreddits or social media just people posting pictures of their teams or making art or covers. Id hardly call liking the games or being positive about them unpopular espically for a game series as mainstream as pokemon and is true for the haters as well, everyone has that one nagging issue with pokemon that they'll forever curse game freak for, thats why this whole thread was made.
We complain all the time about everyone being too negative on these games but if you look at the grander picture thats not really true, sure people have their grevanices but thats just natural, doesnt mean they hate the games, espically if they can still find some enjoyment out of them whether it be in-game or just with the community.
Of course everyone will seem negative if you just dismiss the people who arent.
I do spend time on various Pokémon subreddits, and I do see people doing as you say they do, talking about things they like or posting pictures to show off their enjoyment.
I think the difference is, those kinds of positive sentiments tend to be more emphemeral and of-the-moment than the kind of negative sentiment that often populates the discourse, because so much of that negative sentiment is borne of a continuous and prolonged dissatisfaction with the series that has been intensifying ever since X & Y came out over a decade ago. There isn’t really an equivalent counter-narrative from people who have liked the games from that point onward. Sure, there’s people who will point out when flaws are being exaggerated, or people who will defend specific aspects of an individual game, but tell me how often you see people saying “Pokémon games just keep getting better and better” as opposed to people saying “Pokémon peaked with HGSS/B2W2; it’s all been downhill since then.”
An interesting wrinkle in all this has come to light recently. There's this article floating around about RPG players in Japan claiming that Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy seem to be fading in popularity among younger audiences. One of the leading theories proposes that, by abiding to modern drawn out AAA dev cycles, these two franchises take so long to release new material that kids can't bond with them over their whole childhood the way past generations could; a 7 year old who got Dragon Quest XI for Christmas when it came out is now in high school with the next mainline numbered entry nowhere in sight, remakes and ports notwithstanding. Pokemon has done so much better by circumventing all this and sticking with more or less the same release cadence it always has: The post that triggered this whole discussion was an anecdote from a mangaka asking kids which they preferred between FF and DQ and getting nothing but "lol what are those, I like Pokemon"
the inbetween method is definitely the Mario Method, where spin offs are fundamental to the franchise ecosystem and fill the gaps between "true" mainline series.
i think if pokemon pokopia does well, there could be an incentive to leave some years to spin off years... esp bc pokopia does something extremely important in introducing new characters to the merch machine. 90% of the reason pokemon releases the way it does is because it guarantees a consistent flow of new designs to sell to people.
the inbetween method is definitely the Mario Method, where spin offs are fundamental to the franchise ecosystem and fill the gaps between "true" mainline series.
i think if pokemon pokopia does well, there could be an incentive to leave some years to spin off years... esp bc pokopia does something extremely important in introducing new characters to the merch machine. 90% of the reason pokemon releases the way it does is because it guarantees a consistent flow of new designs to sell to people.
That, or they could cram as much spin-offs and mainline games as possible within two years or less which can lead to worsen fatigue and competing merchandises.
Which leads to lower quality and polish if this continues.
tbh a huge reason for Gen 4 being my favourite Gen is the sidegames. Ranger, Ranger 2, PMD2. All amazing (never played PMD1 or Ranger 3) Obviously I’ve heard great things about Colosseum and XD and can’t wait to try them on the Switch.
tbh a huge reason for Gen 4 being my favourite Gen is the sidegames. Ranger, Ranger 2, PMD2. All amazing (never played PMD1 or Ranger 3) Obviously I’ve heard great things about Colosseum and XD and can’t wait to try them on the Switch.
Massive same for me, would recommend Ranger 3 and PMD1 (though that's a gen 3 game) a lot. Sidegames are a major thing for me and I wish we got more of them, they haven't had much other than New Snap and i guess Rescue Team DX and Detective Pikachu Returns since gen 7.
Massive same for me, would recommend Ranger 3 and PMD1 (though that's a gen 3 game) a lot. Sidegames are a major thing for me and I wish we got more of them, they haven't had much other than New Snap and i guess Rescue Team DX and Detective Pikachu Returns since gen 7.
Been talking about this with Cryo and Gato, and it seems like Drumstickgaming also brought it up in this thread recently, but I think BW2 is insanely overrated and a mess to play through.
Like, it's good. It's a nice B tier game, but it's not remotely close to being a contender for the best game in the series or one of the best RPGs ever, distinctions that I would give to BW1.
Not really gonna talk about the story, I think both BW1 and 2 have a bad story with "philosophical debates" that don't really go anywhere and an insanely bland cast of characters. 2's story is marginally better because the resolution of the Purrloin sideplot was really interesting in concept, but the plot up to the Liepard reveal and the aftermath wasn't interesting since Hugh is a nothingburger character just like everyone else.
I think it's important to understand that part of what makes BW1 so excellent is that it's a very smoothly crafted experience polished to a mirror sheen thanks to its spritework and music. The game does a great job of moving you through varied locations at a great pace, long enough that every town and dungeon feels satisfying, but nothing gets too overbearing, and the game never loses track of the Route -> Dungeon -> Town/Gym -> Repeat structure it's got going on. The choice of a brand new Pokedex is bold, but the Pokemon selection is still really good and varied, and they still introduce new Pokemon in the game late-game (including Hydreigon and Volcarona, which are powerful but designed to be unusable until post-game).
I personally rolled credits at 15 hours, which is insanely good for a JRPG. And there's still a ton of satisfying side content to chew through: Lots of optional areas in dungeons you've visited previously, routes that are clearly out of the way that you can check out if you so desire, the postgame content is cleanly placed into a separate but sizable area of the map, the few superbosses are fun challenges, and the questline for the Seven Sages is pretty easy to follow along. I did basically everything in the game, and I think it still only took me another 20 hours for 35 in total. That is a incredible feat for a content-filled RPG.
Anyways, BW2 kinda just dumps on everything I've described? In my eyes, BW2 is a game that tries to be "the ultimate experience Pokemon Fans", not realizing that by doing so it's completely ruining the ability for it to be a well-constructed RPG.
The new Pokedex is massive at 300 entries, which is funny because like a third of it can't even be seen until postgame. It also forecasts Game Freak trying to jangle keys in front of fans by letting them make their epic overpowered Pokemon right from the start, rather than BW1 mostly being pretty well-balanced. There's of course the early-game Ranch where players can get Riolu right from the start without having to go through the significant hurdles of raising them like you did in Gen 4. Wow! You like Lucario right??? You should use it!!!!! Funnily enough, the ranch also contains Azurill, which has a slow start, but having used it myself, I can confidently say BW2 Azumarill is one of the most busted in-game Pokemon I've ever seen. Like, even though it evolves crazy early at Level 18, I guess they figured it'd have trouble with Gyms 3 and 4 around that point? But like...Aqua Tail at Level 21? Double Edge Level 25? SUPERPOWER AS A LEVEL UP MOVE AT ALL???? (and it's not even post-game, it's only Level 42!!!) What are we doing man.
Oh, and if you keep Charm on it from Azurill, you can have a water-type tank that hits absurdly hard and can debuff to oblivion.
But what's really more damning is what this means for the overall experience. Gone is the smooth Route -> Dungeon -> Town/Gym rhythm. There's all this extra shit you are required to do in the middle of the story to show off all this cool side content the game has on offer, like Join Avenue, and the Movies, and the World Tournament. Like, I'm glad this content is here and it's pretty good vacuum but...it's just an overwhelming amount of stuff, and did we really need to grind things to a halt for it? As Drumstickgaming noted, after Gym 6 the game takes a nosedive into pacing hell. At this point, the game ships you halfway across the map, skipping the linear path on the map, to bumfuck nowhere Lentimas Town where you have to slog through multiple towns and routes just to finally to get to Opelcuid City where you have a gym. And then the game tries to contort its structure in service of its mediocre story by having you immediately move to the next town and 8th gym.
I finished Gym 8 at Hour 19.
It took me another SIX HOURS to finish the game. Why????
First off, they shove like three dungeons at you in a row (Seaside Cave -> Frigate -> Giant Chasm) without much of a break in order to fight off Plasma, with tons of grunts and minibosses packing the same "bad guy Pokemon" along the way. So I clear out Kyurem B (you don't even catch the legendary in the main story, which I guess is fine for balancing reasons, but it sure aint satisfying when it's not at all hard boss to just plainly defeat) and beat Ghetsis. And at this point I'm like "okay, this is probably like Sun/Moon where the game is gonna immediately move me into the Pokemon League."
NOPE. As soon as you get out Giant Chasm, without a moment's rest, you find yourself at the entrance to the massive Ace Trainer-infested Route 23, and you still have to do the entirety of Victory Road, and THEN you finally get to the League.
When I got to the post-game, I saw the list of things to do and realized it was just a bunch of random shit thrown across the map; post-game locations in diverging directions, a bunch of random post-game trainers, these confusing ass challenge areas (of which there are MULTIPLE in different parts of the map), a bunch of random legendaries, and all the side content that was already in BW1 or introduced before BW2's credits. As I approached the first thing on the list, catching Heatran(????), which isn't even a Unova Pokemon, I looked at myself and was like "what am I doing dude" and promptly dropped the game.
Did this rant seem like a headache to read? I'm glad it did, because that's pretty much what it's like playing BW2: It's got a lot of fun and well-designed and satisfying stuff on paper, but the assembled experience is exhausting and unfocused. I'm past the point where I can truly love a game that is a bunch of "stuff" without any sense of organization or anything that truly gives it an X-Factor over all the other games I could be playing (I adore SM and while I'm sure I'll experience a lot of these problems on a replay, at least that game actually has a good story and comfy tone). BW2 is a game that tries to be a content rich "dream game" for Pokemon fans, but it just doesn't have anything that really sets it apart from the rest of the series to justify how much of a bloated mess it is.
Now that I think about it, Mega Conservation passive ability from Ansha's donuts probably could've been worked into a friendship mechanic for base Mega Evolutions to make the whole "bond with your Pokemon" thing an actual mechanic and not just fluff. Something like "Oh, Pokemon can't usually stay in Mega Evolutions for long, but if you're real good friends with them, they can tough out the transformation a little while longer!" Something like that.
As for how it would actually work, i'm thinking...
Below high friendship: Base duration -> High friendship: M.C. Lv. 2 -> Max friendship: M.C. Lv. 3
Below high friendship: Base Z duration -> High friendship: M.C. Lv. 1 -> Max friendship: M.C. Lv. 2
As Drumstickgaming noted, after Gym 6 the game takes a nosedive into pacing hell. At this point, the game ships you halfway across the map, skipping the linear path on the map, to bumfuck nowhere Lentimas Town where you have to slog through multiple towns and routes just to finally to get to Opelcuid City where you have a gym.
It also forecasts Game Freak trying to jangle keys in front of fans by letting them make their epic overpowered Pokemon right from the start, rather than BW1 mostly being pretty well-balanced.
I love BW1 but a lot of stuff is turbo busted not long into that game. Darumaka, Moxie Scraggy / Sandile, Sawk, Gigalith/Conkeldurr at only level 25, the Work Up TM in general I think is the most overpowered Gym TM in the franchise for how early it is, the game straight up gives you the Lucky Egg midgame with Axew not far off...granted some of that stuff isn't quite as soon as the start, but it really doesn't take long to get to and it's not as egregiously busted as SWSH Stone evolutions like Arcanine/Musharna.
Disagree on the bland characters in BW1 for the most part. BW1's cast is basic and far from the best story in a video game, but it works pretty well. I'm a 28-year-old and I relate to both Cheren and Bianca immensely, they hit the nail on the head with young adults who struggle to find a purpose in life. Pursuing greatness for the sake of recognition and feeling directionless due to being unconfident in your abilities are truly timeless themes I think so many people can appreciate. I'm not gonna dissect any of the other characters, I think mostly they serve their roles in the story well and play with the typical elements of a Pokemon game's structure in an innovative way.
I think what makes BW2's story fail is that it's so excessively focused on spectacle coming out of almost nowhere toward the end. The spectacle moments in BW1 were very carefully chosen and serviced the story. N getting the Legendary dragon, the protagonist getting the Light/Dark Stone from the museum, and especially the N's Castle moment at the end - these moments feel earned because the rest of the story has clearly established its antagonists in Team Plasma which it has repeatedly built up throughout the entire game and these big moments feel legitimately dramatic as a result.
In BW2? You beat a couple grunts around Castelia and Virbank which are nothingburgers with OOH PLAYING UP THE MYSTERY SEARCHING FOR SOMETHING. You raid the Plasma Frigate and get no real new information beyond the fact that Kyurem exists then Plasma essentially dies off until Opelucid where The Pokemon Law That Requires The Evil Team Being Dealt With Before The Pokemon League comes into play. Neo Team Plasma in BW2 is literally glorified Team Rocket. Nobody has depth here, from Colress to Zinzolin to Ghetsis, they all say generically evil things and Ghetsis's big reveal at the end is kinda lame because, oh yeah, he first showed up ten minutes ago get excited!!!!! Like, take away the great battle music these guys have, take away the actual Pokemon battles. This is the story faking like it cares about its characters when it's just doing the bare minimum.
All the Plasma wrap-up stuff is vomited on you at once after being such a boring non-entity for most of the game. Like, Emerald and Platinum aren't super great at giving their villains proper depth either, but their stories at least have some continual buildup with Aqua/Magma and Galactic being a consistent presence with the threat clearly established. Neo Team Plasma is literally Dr. Doofenshmirtz deep (and I love Dr. Doofenshmirtz so I hate saying that in a negative sense): "Let's freeze the region because...because...because...we froze the region!!!!" The story tries to frame all this as E P I C when it's just cartoonish supervillainy: cool on paper, but falls flat when the actual characters fail to do any heavy lifting. Platinum fills the niche of "fun plot focused on world-ending spectacle" way better than BW2 does because it has an actual sense of progression with the villain's plans, the Bike Shop theft and maybe those random Iron Island grunts are like the few isolated times I think Galactic's presence feels obligatory and purposeless.
If we're gonna call any characters in Unova bland, it's 100% the Seven Sages and Anthea and Concordia. They are some of the most wasted characters I've ever seen in a video game, in both games. Nine unique designs and only two of them get actual boss fights in BW2, neither of which is anything special (what is BW2's obsession with thinking Zinzolin is a good boss LOL...and I struggle to call Rood a boss fight)
DPPT: Platinum is a good game that shows the issues of pre Gen V streamlining. Eight HMs, still some movepool issues, saving a lot of data. Plenty of Pokemon still want TMs for STAB worth a darn.
i don't think the 'requiring TMs for STAB worth a damn' is actually a fault at all and is more just a preference in game design tbh.
for that matter, i think both single-use and reusable tms have solid arguments in favour of them, and I think the recent trend of single-use craftable tms or BDSP's awful 3-tms-a-pop thing all fucking suck. Either make using one a choice that sticks or make them reusable. This in-between shit fucking sucks because all the game-modes attached to it are godawful.
i don't think the 'requiring TMs for STAB worth a damn' is actually a fault at all and is more just a preference in game design tbh.
for that matter, i think both single-use and reusable tms have solid arguments in favour of them, and I think the recent trend of single-use craftable tms or BDSP's awful 3-tms-a-pop thing all fucking suck. Either make using one a choice that sticks or make them reusable. This in-between shit fucking sucks because all the game-modes attached to it are godawful.
Oh both TM methods absolutely have solid arguments for them, non-reusable makes it so your choice has more weight vs putting OP TMs like EQ in postgame. It is totally a preference thing.
The question of whether FRLG will get Home support when they're released on Switch reminds me of something that's long annoyed me about Game Freak: for once, could they just say "it'll be released on [specific date]"? Everything's always "coming soon!" or, just as maddeningly, "early/late [year]".
I know, I know that things like game updates and DLCs are actively being worked on when they're announced and it's not always certain that things will be ready in time for a desired date but that's still not an excuse. I literally work in tech and we have an upcoming product release with a fixed date announced. Just say "March" or "June" or "November" ffs, and if you then have to announce a delay then fine, whatever!
no idea how unpopular it is on this forum specifically, but I think outside of the wild area Pokemon Sword/Shield looks pretty nice. The art style is charming and interesting, I like how all the towns and routes look. I wish a lot of them weren't hallways but in terms of style making up for the lower graphical fidelity, I think they did a pretty good job.
I never really had a negative opinion of gen 8 like most of the internet appeared to have at the time but as time passes and I revisit those games my opinion of them improves. still would probably get made fun of and yelled at for ranking them in like B+ or higher, lol.
also honestly even as a fan of open world games, I don't think the wild area is enjoyable. of all the playthrus of Sword/Shield I've done I think the ones where I spent the least amount of time in the wild area were a lot more fun and memorable.
