Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Toxtricity has been part of the SV NU metagame for a long time, however it's presence in the tier has slowly but surely become more controversial as it continues to be a dominant part of highly effective Hyper Offense structures, as well as a premier breaker for more balanced builds. The most infamous Toxtricity set runs a combination of the moves Shift Gear, Boomburst, and Overdrive, with the 4th move being more flexible depending on team composition (usually Drain Punch to break past Chansey) in conjunction with Throat Spray. This allows Toxtricity to outspeed the entire meta after one boost, and blast through most neutral targets in 2 hits thanks to the ridiculous breaking power of Tera-Normal Throat Spray Boomburst and Overdrive, both of which are bolstered by it's Punk Rock ability. Alternatively, some people opt to run Toxtricity on bulky offense / balanced builds, as it has just enough bulk and an interesting defensive typing which lets it softcheck a few popular Pokemon such as Flamigo, Scyther, Tornadus, and Bellibolt while acting as an extremely potent wallbreaker / revenge killer depending on whether it chooses to run Choice Specs or Choice Scarf. However, Toxtricity can still be contained to an extent by key defensive staples of the tier such as SpD Bronzong, Copperajah (with Earthquake), Chansey (counters choiced sets and can counter shift gear depending on Tera type), Rhyperior, and Duraludon, and also requires 1-2 turns of setup to reach it's full sweeping potential in some cases. Thus the question stands, does SV NU have enough resources to handle Toxtricity? Or is it's power level too much for the tier to handle.
The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in NU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played NU before the test, full stop.
At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
Double check that you're listed as a voterhere! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Rabia, or a member of staff.
If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me.
The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800. The deadline for getting requirements will be Thursday, March 19th at 7pm GMT+11.
Before I play even a single game in this suspect for anyone that is gonna take part just because they like the challenge and don't necessarily know deeply about NU.
Toxt is stupid. Is a mon that the day it loses tera it will be much much much much weaker. Until than...
Shift Gear destroys offense out speeding and KOing everything. Perfect typing vs migo helps a lot and actually normal tera is a good enough defensively tera to give you that 1 free turn you need.
Specs doesn't have true walls. 90% of the universe is in range of Boomburst+Tera Boomburst .
Scarf is like cute and all but is more cheesy than anything to get an early turn surprise KO and try to build a win based on that. A lot of mid speed mons can do that.
Do I use it in tours and is super fun to see a wall evaporate? Yes and Yes again.
Do i think its ban worthy? I'm 75% sure yes but it shouldn't be a unanimous decision. But given if it wasn't for me PZ would have a 100% ban vote I think Toxt days are numbered.
Something not mentioned in the OP that I think deserves a shout is the experimentation of physical shift gear sets. Now in a vacuum these aren't really broken at all, they're way easier to wall and overall just worse than the special sets, however they do have a notable niche being that they can easily just click shift gear and boost and still bluff being a special set until they finally attack, and the physical sets are capable of beating the vast majority of checks to special sets (namely the steels, chansey regardless of tera, and the rare golurk/palosand) meaning it can quite often really find a surprise KO against a piece it normally shouldn't and chip down another response after to open up holes for its teammates. And it's not like you're gonna expect it to reveal it's physical either, after all the special sets are far more common and devastating if not handled correctly, which only works in favor of physical sets because you're never going to play like they're physical until they actually prove it.
This all said I'm still not 100% certain on where I stand on toxtricity yet, but the added set variety of the, albeit still rare, physical sets make it enough of a headache that I can understand why people want it banned
Did my homework. I don't think it is bannable but I think the tier will have a positive impact if it goes so I am voting ban. My points are summarized in the eternally post. Enjoy RU
I have no real claim to Toxtricity beyond "its stupid ban it" so I don't have much to add but the sound of music is a horrifically dogshit movie and im personally offended to have had the misfortune of having it on my screen against my will.
Agreed on Toxt being broken after 2 turns but even then there's still counterplay depending on the last move.
Specs Toxt is less broken and gets to break walls instantly but getting choicelocked into an electric or normal move in the progress is easily abusable.
Duraludon is one of the most common mons in the tier and does well against most variations.
and if that's not enough just run Palossand/Golurk/Bastiodon/Tera Steel Soundproof Abomasnow/Scarf Inteleon/Scarf Barraskewda/Tera ghost Chansey(for the 1 person running drain punch)/AV regen Reuniclus/Spdef Coal if it's not modest toxt.
Agreed on Toxt being broken after 2 turns but even then there's still counterplay depending on the last move.
Specs Toxt is less broken and gets to break walls instantly but getting choicelocked into an electric or normal move in the progress is easily abusable.
Duraludon is one of the most common mons in the tier and does well against most variations.
and if that's not enough just run Palossand/Golurk/Bastiodon/Tera Steel Soundproof Abomasnow/Scarf Inteleon/Scarf Barraskewda/Tera ghost Chansey(for the 1 person running drain punch)/AV regen Reuniclus/Spdef Coal if it's not modest toxt.
You are right in the aspect of Specs being less broken than Shift Gear, but that's about it. Yes being Choicelocked into Overdrive or Boomburst does suck with Flygon and Chandelure being so good (and other Ground or Ghost types), but you are playing a risky 50/50 against Toxtricity. If you click wrong then you are now in a 5v6 scenario, and if you went Flygon hoping it clicked Overdrive but it clicked Boomburst, then you're down your only Overdrive check.
Duraludon "does well" against Toxtricity, and by that I mean it can switch in once, this is not counting Tera, either.
The list of "checks" you put are mostly unviable. If my team is weak to Toxtricity then I am not about to add Soundproof Abomasnow to make it better.
---
Toxtricity is a dumb Pokemon because it plays the 50/50 game way too well. Overdrive and Boomburst are too hard to switch into repeatedly while Shift Gear sets have too much versatility in the 4th move. Not to mention Toxtricity leaving restricts the builder less, which is only a good thing. If I happen to get reqs with my Bellossom team, I will be voting Ban.
I don't think Toxtricity is completely busted, as there are some fairly solid checks against it in the tier. It does hit a bit too hard and I think it's controversial status in the tier is due to how offensive NU currently is. There's too many physical sweepers in the tier imo. Banning it would most likely result in a healthier meta. It's kind of a shame since I think it's typing and move set gives it an interesting niche had shift gear or punk rock not existed.
If we ban Toxtricity, should we ban both forms? 'Cause without Shift Gear, the low-key form ain't broken as it's counterpart. In my opinion, only the yellow form is ban-worthy.
If we ban Toxtricity, should we ban both forms? 'Cause without Shift Gear, the low-key form ain't broken as it's counterpart. In my opinion, only the yellow form is ban-worthy.
Recently completed my suspect laddering and I will be voting Do Not Ban on Toxtricity.
"I'm brainrotted and can't read this whole post" (TLDR): Ultimately, the metagame has already adapted to Toxtricity and will continue to do so, and while it is a threat that needs to be explicitly prepared for, the cost of doing so is not so great that its presence harms the tier, and is therefore ultimately not banworthy.
It is sufficiently answerable with pokemon available in the tier, both with defensive meta staples (Copperajah, Duraludon, EQ Bronzong, Swampert, Lagging Tail Klefki, and Chansey) and offensive pokemon with outstanding special bulk like Goodra, Meloetta, and Hoopa. There are more fringe options like Golurk, Bastiodon, and Porygon2, and while these all come with significant downsides, it's actually quite cool that these more fringe mons are given viability and a chance to shine in the tier once again. While the power of a Toxtricity with Tera Normal is among the highest in the tier, its Tera type and turn are both highly predictable, and it's not difficult to halt its sweep with a well-timed Tera Ghost/Steel of your own.
Frailer offensive teams may find themselves as Toxtricity food, but this is usually just a result of a failure to reasonably prep for it. Toxtricity's poor bulk and inability to resist the most common priority options in the tier like Basculegion's Aqua Jet or Brute Bonnet's Sucker Punch leave it vulnerable to getting revenge killed if traded with while setting up, and Modest sets are outsped by some scarfers like Munkidori. If forced to switch out after consuming Throat Spray, Toxtricity can remain a threat but will not reach the same absurd power level, and you can mostly consider it "dealt with".
Choiced sets are good, but with its primary attacking types both having immunities it can be scouted with Protect by walls like Vaporeon or simply predicted with a good switch. Some teams will have to make these 50/50 reads that many are concerned about, but on many occasions, sacking a weakened or less important pokemon is the best route and lets you avoid this guesswork altogether. Having used them myself, I can say physical sets ARE real, but they simply are used so rarely that it's not much of a consideration, and once the gig is up, most mons with decent physical bulk can handle it.
Here's the team I used for most of my reqs run. I'll make a post soon on some underrated pokemon I've experimented with lately, and the one featured here is Regirock!
Recently completed my suspect laddering and I will be voting Do Not Ban on Toxtricity.
"I'm brainrotted and can't read this whole post" (TLDR): Ultimately, the metagame has already adapted to Toxtricity and will continue to do so, and while it is a threat that needs to be explicitly prepared for, the cost of doing so is not so great that its presence harms the tier, and is therefore ultimately not banworthy.
It is sufficiently answerable with pokemon available in the tier, both with defensive meta staples (Copperajah, Duraludon, EQ Bronzong, Swampert, Lagging Tail Klefki, and Chansey) and offensive pokemon with outstanding special bulk like Goodra, Meloetta, and Hoopa. There are more fringe options like Golurk, Bastiodon, and Porygon2, and while these all come with significant downsides, it's actually quite cool that these more fringe mons are given viability and a chance to shine in the tier once again. While the power of a Toxtricity with Tera Normal is among the highest in the tier, its Tera type and turn are both highly predictable, and it's not difficult to halt its sweep with a well-timed Tera Ghost/Steel of your own.
Frailer offensive teams may find themselves as Toxtricity food, but this is usually just a result of a failure to reasonably prep for it. Toxtricity's poor bulk and inability to resist the most common priority options in the tier like Basculegion's Aqua Jet or Brute Bonnet's Sucker Punch leave it vulnerable to getting revenge killed if traded with while setting up, and Modest sets are outsped by some scarfers like Munkidori. If forced to switch out after consuming Throat Spray, Toxtricity can remain a threat but will not reach the same absurd power level, and you can mostly consider it "dealt with".
Choiced sets are good, but with its primary attacking types both having immunities it can be scouted with Protect by walls like Vaporeon or simply predicted with a good switch. Some teams will have to make these 50/50 reads that many are concerned about, but on many occasions, sacking a weakened or less important pokemon is the best route and lets you avoid this guesswork altogether. Having used them myself, I can say physical sets ARE real, but they simply are used so rarely that it's not much of a consideration, and once the gig is up, most mons with decent physical bulk can handle it.
Here's the team I used for most of my reqs run. I'll make a post soon on some underrated pokemon I've experimented with lately, and the one featured here is Regirock!
Just got my reqs and I'm gonna be lazy and just say my friend Shengineer sums it up perfectly and this guy isn't broken. The specs set is similar to chandy in where it blows up slow balance but is bad against offense, but this guy is a little worse because its stabs have immunities, although it can pivot unlike chandy. The shift gear set takes 2 turns to get going, just don't be bad and give it free setup or bring teams that have no answers. It's just a good, strong Mon in the tier
Got my reqs on one of my alts, Lord Nerevar, and frankly I don't see why this suspect test is needed.
"Just click boom!" - Bernardo
Code:
Toxtricity @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Snarl
Everyone here has been on both ends of a Tera Normal Punk Rock 252+ Boomburst, and there are some mons that can eat it well. AV Rajah, SpD Bronzong, Eviolite Duraludon, Ghost types, you get the idea. I would argue that this is its best or "most problematic" set, so that's why I'm writing about it first.
Slow pivot -> Click button -> Something explodes isn't uncommon in singles, in fact it's the baseline of competitive singles since Gen 4. Specs Tox does not do anything beyond this, it's very noticeably not meta-warping. Other offense teams should naturally be equipped to threaten something so slow with a quad weakness. A bulk spread of 75/70/70 with no investments does not handle Banded/Specs and/or Tera bombs.
This is a wallbreaker set, and naturally, it will break balance teams. Balance will naturally need to pivot more and therefore play for ranges, doubles, and reads, and this is all normal and healthy gameplay. The only thing I can say that Toxtricity gets away with is pre-Tera you ignore threats of paralysis or poison. This is set-agnostic, of course.
While this set is strong, arguably a premier wallbreaker in the tier, I see very little direct counterplay AKA meta-warping activity. We're not seeing H-Electrode for Soundproof, we're not seeing Throat Chop, we're not seeing directed hate sets, and that's for two very clear reasons:
1. Generic sets from multiple Pokemon (see above, and beyond) handle it just fine
2. It's not being built around enough to warrant Teambuilder counterplay
It's simply doing its job.
"He's gonna click Drain Punch here and you're gonna be really sad." - Brick
My perception of ShiftSpray is admittedly warped, as my teams tend to have really good answers to the set. AV Raj, Tailwind Torn, Banded Basculegion, bulky Rhyperior, so on. I generally don't see how this set is problematic unless you're playing a turn behind or lack pivots/bombs outright. This is a two-turn setup mon, and while not a lot of Pokemon can safely hard switch into specs Tox, you can hard switch into the Shift Gear turn, or pre-Throat Spray turn. It functions way more like a janitor, and needs a proper team to complement it, you really can't copy paste this set into any ol' team. This is another key indicator on why this mon isn't broken, you can't slap this set onto any offense team as a sweeper and call it a day.
ShiftSpray Tox needs to find two free turns on previously crippled mons, passive threats, or simply janitor an endgame. This is all normal for any other setup sweeper, and Electric/Fighting coverage isn't that scary. While saving Tera Normal for your specs Tox makes sense in the average balance game, assuming you will always be at liberty to tera Normal on an offense team is a pipe dream. If you want to play around Tera Normal Boomburst, just run Specs.
Here's the final nail in the coffin: Roar. Just roar this. If your team is weak to setup sweepers, Roar will be gladly welcomed across many of your matchups, and your average rawrer like Swampert and Duraludon are more than able to eat a move to do so. Once the Throat Spray has been wasted, you shouldn't ever be in a position to lose to it.
Extreme conditions demand extreme responses. Historically, problematic sweepers demanded sharp counter-sets, Unaware splashed in the team, or prio spam. This tier does lack Unaware, but there's a decent chunk of prio, and if it was needed we would see more of it, but we don't. Sets like these also simply get worse as mons shuffle around tiers, and players get accustomed to it. You have a two-turn window against ShiftSpray, you have much less against Choice Specs.
"Phys Tox is NOT VIABLE. IT'S A MEME. DO NOT CALL PHYSICAL TOX VIABLE." - Ming
Toxtricity @ Life Orb
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Whatever
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Shift Gear
- Gunk Shot
- Throat Chop
Billy, this is Physical Toxtricity. He's a setup sweeper. He is one of the most undervalued Pokemon in NU. His defect is that he sets up funny.
Moneyball quotes aside, phys Tox is objectively not as good as it's Tera Normal Boombursting counterparts, but it does operate akin to Scrafty with less of a tera dependency and better coverage. Throat Chop variant lets you counter enemy Tox, and you get to fully utilize a strictly better Dragon Dance. It has its niche, but it's definitely in cheese territory.
Not much more I can say about this, but you'll probably ruin someone's day hitting a +1 Gunk Shot on AV Goodra or Blissey or something. +1 Life Orb Throat Chop is a clean OHKO on every psychic type except Glowbro and Reun, btw. Don't look at the calcs against Fluff Houndstone.
Toxtricity @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 168 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Stored Power
- Shift Gear
- Charge Beam
<-
