Metagame DPP LC

[Zcarlett]

(Art by hultizy)​

Why play DPP LC?

It's Fast Paced - Thanks to generational differences such as the lack of staple Little Cup items like Eviolite and Berry Juice, Little Cup staples like Vullaby, Mienfoo, and Ferroseed being notably absent, and Gen 4 Mechanics like no team preview and double damage explosion all lead to DPP Little Cup to being the most fast paced generation of Little Cup.

It’s Diverse - Resulting from the aforementioned offensive nature of the tier & the lower power level this generation experiences, the greatest variety of viable pokemon in any generation of Little Cup can be found here. Pokemon that don’t see use in many other generations like Machop, Mantyke, Munchlax, and many others are tier staples.

It’s Easy to Learn - The relatively stable nature of the tier in combination the generational mechanics and dynamics that incentivize kill trading make the tier very easy to pick up while still having room for skill expression and creative building.

Viability Rankings

S Rank

Munchlax
Gligar

A+ Rank

Gastly
Chinchou
Snover
Bronzor

A Rank

Wailmer
Duskull
Machop
Stunky

A- Rank

Cranidos
Mantyke
Aipom
Croagunk
Staryu
Voltorb
Kabuto

B+Rank

Koffing
Houndour
Diglett
Elekid
Wynaut
Porygon
Dratini
Ponyta

B Rank

Zigzagoon
Aron
Drifloon
Mankey
Omanyte
Buizel
Doduo
Abra

B- Rank

Bagon
Magnemite
Horsea
Tailow

Sample Teams

- Double Fighter by HSOWA
- Wacan Wailmer Scarf Snover Waterspam by Hacker
- Rain by HSOWA
- Aipom LOrb Stunky by Zcarlett
- Snover Lead Standard by Melon
- Scarf Wailmer Balance by Fantos13
- Voltorb Lead by Hacker
- Mixed Snover Bronzor SD Gligar by Kipkluif
- Screens by HSOWA
- Elekid Lead Houndour Balance by Nails
- Semi Rain by Nails

Role Compendium

Guidelines:
- Pokemon shown are exclusively from the DPP LC Viability Rankings, with a few exceptions
- Pokemon in front of the slash or without a slash means it is something standard or common, while something behind the slash means it is nonstandard or rare.

Entry Hazards
Stealth Rock:
(lead only) /
Spikes:
/
Toxic Spikes:
/
Rapid Spin:
/
Setup Sweepers
Agility / Rock Polish:
/
Belly Drum:

Bulk Up:
/
Calm Mind:

Curse:
/
Dragon Dance:
/
Nasty Plot:
/
Swift Swim:
/
Swords Dance:
/
Quick Feet:
/

Priority
Aqua Jet:
/
Bullet Punch:

Extreme Speed:

Fake Out:
/
Ice Shard:
/
Quick Attack
/
Shadow Sneak:

Sucker Punch:
/ :
Vacuum Wave:


Self Knockout Moves
Explosion:
/
Self-Destruct:
/
Memento:
/

Trapping
Arena Trap:
/
Magnet Pull:

Pursuit:

Shadow Tag:


Utiliy
Encore:
/
Rain Dance:
/
Recycle:
/
Reflect / Light Screen
/
Substitute:
/
U-Turn:
/
Will-O-Wisp


Items
As a sidenote, Oran Berry is the default item in the metagame, and as such will not be listed. Most pokemon listed here also have Oran Berry variants.
Choice Scarf:
/
Damp Rock
/
Focus Sash:
/
Life Orb:
/
Light Clay:
/
Lum Berry:

Speed Tiers

Speed	Sprite	Pokemon	Base	Nature	IVs	EVs	±
38		Buizel	85	Positive	31	236	+2
34		Chinchou	67	Positive	31	220	+2
34		Drifloon	70	Positive	31	196	+2
30		Bagon	50	Positive	31	196	+2
28		Gligar	85	Positive	31	236	+1
28		Chinchou	67	Neutral	31	60	+2
28		Kabuto	55	Neutral	31	156	+2
28		Dratini	50	Neutral	31	196	+2
28		Teddiursa	40	Positive	31	196	+2
28		Krabby	50	Neutral	31	196	+2
27		Gastly	80	Positive	31	196	+1
26		Mantyke	50	Neutral	31	116	+2
26		Aron	30	Positive	31	196	+2
25		Doduo	75	Neutral	31	236	+1
25		Mankey	70	Positive	31	196	+1
24		Chinchou	67	Neutral	31	220	+1
24		Cranidos	58	Positive	31	212	+1
22		Cranidos	58	Neutral	31	212	+1
22		Wailmer	60	Neutral	31	196	+1
22		Bagon	50	Positive	31	196	+1
21		Snover	40	Positive	30	200	+1
21		Machop	35	Positive	31	236	+1
21		Porygon	40	Positive	31	196	+1
21		Dratini	50	Neutral	31	196	+1
21		Krabby	50	Neutral	31	196	+1
20		Diglett	95	Positive	31	236	0
20		Elekid	95	Positive	31	236	0
20		Voltorb	100	Positive	31	196	0
19		Gligar	85	Positive	31	236	0
19		Staryu	85	Positive	30	240	0
19		Aipom	85	Positive	31	236	0
19		Ponyta	90	Positive	31	196	0
19		Abra	90	Positive	31	200	0
19		Taillow	85	Positive	31	236	0
19		Buizel	85	Positive	31	236	0
19		Glameow	85	Positive	31	236	0
19		Magby	83	Positive	31	252	0
18		Gastly	80	Positive	31	196	0
18		Stunky	74	Positive	31	244	0
17		Chinchou	67	Positive	31	220	0
17		Houndour	65	Positive	31	236	0
17		Doduo	75	Neutral	31	236	0
17		Drifloon	70	Positive	31	196	0
17		Carvanha	65	Positive	31	236	0
17		Tentacool	70	Positive	31	196	0
16		Cranidos	58	Positive	31	212	0
16		Growlithe	60	Positive	31	196	0
16		Carvanha	65	Neutral	31	236	0
16		Chimchar	61	Positive	31	188	0
15		Zigzagoon	60	Neutral	31	196	0
15		Cranidos	58	Neutral	31	212	0
15		Wailmer	60	Neutral	31	196	0
15		Bagon	50	Positive	31	196	0
14		Chinchou	67	Neutral	31	60	0
14		Croagunk	50	Neutral	31	196	0
14		Kabuto	55	Neutral	31	156	0
14		Porygon	40	Positive	31	196	0
14		Dratini	50	Neutral	31	196	0
14		Teddiursa	40	Positive	31	196	0
14		Krabby	50	Neutral	31	196	0
13		Snover	40	Neutral	31	196	0
13		Mantyke	50	Neutral	31	116	0
13		Aron	30	Positive	31	196	0
13		Magnemite	45	Neutral	31	156	0
12		Snover	40	Neutral	31	120	0
11		Machop	35	Neutral	31	76	0
11		Koffing	35	Neutral	31	76	0
11		Phanpy	40	Neutral	31	36	0
10		Machop	35	Neutral	31	0	0
9		Duskull	25	Neutral	31	0	0
9		Wynaut	23	Neutral	31	12	0
8		Munchlax	5	Neutral	31	76	0
8		Bronzor	23	Negative	31	12	0
8		Pineco	15	Neutral	31	0	0
7		Munchlax	5	Neutral	31	0	0

 

[Hacker]

For convenience sakes, I'm just gonna drop a tiermaker here so I don't have to go searching for it every time. Here's my personal VR with yap about some selective mons.

VR

S Tier
Munchlax is the clear top mon, you can't build good non rain or screens without it. Nothing else functions nearly as well as a special sponge. It also trades insanely well. This mons expected value is very good.
I think Gastly is insanely good and you can tailor it to beat its supposed checks while still being a great mon overall. Any pokemon with BOOM is also automatically really good. You can build good teams without Gastly, but I think that Gastly isconstantly elite and worthy of being grouped with munchlax. Its peaks are certainly better than Gligars

A Tiers
I think Gligar is worse than Gastly, but its still a great mon. I like the SD sets more than the rocks ones for sure, but you can kind of always put it on a team and it will do something. Can never really go wrong with it, but its peaks in games I find to be really underwhelming compared to the big two.
I used to hate on Bronzor a lot, but honestly building more balanced teams for this tiers standards is borderline impossible without it if you want consistent success. This guy can get a little passive sometimes so I like playing around with a random screen to help out your teammates for a little bit more, or alternatively just run some special attack to actually hit stuff decently. I encourage people to experiment with this mons spreads more.
Water's are really good, and Wailmer really capitalizes on that. It is also one of the few good scarfers that exist, but Oran Berry sets or stuff like Wacan to lure Chinchou work really well too. Great pokemon to use and build with.
Another staple of more balance structured teams, Snover is good. I've became slightly less high on him while I've been a bigger fan of Bronzor, but its a very consistent mon overall. It's not like Snover can never really get past even the good Bronzor spreads anyways.
I like this guy a lot. You can tailor it to check really anything and do a good job at it. Having to hit Hydro Pump is like super annoying, but you could probably run Surf on it if you really wanted. This guy is also just a really good breaker or wincon with it either winning with Munchlax gone, or chipping Munchlax for something else in the back. This guy's winrate isn't great over the past few tours TMK but I would certainly say it's not its fault.
Protect leads are literally optimal very much so of the time which hurts Aipom a lot, but its still really good. You have to respect it in the builder, and even if you are dealing with a Protect lead you often can live a single hit vs them anyways, or just be able to use it later in the game or U-Turn out with it later. My opinion on it has dropped a little over time, but its still a good mon.
Rain is good, everyone not me is using bad rain teams though. Omanyte is ridiculously good. Run Modest and you kill literally everything.

B Tiers
Other good users of rain, but I rank them a step below the other good users of it. Staryu is also generally good outside of rain, but I think it functions better on it.
I like this guy a lot. It's good vs the Water's and DD outrage is really good at winning games.
This pokemon sucks to pilot and is a coinflip machine. If you get all of your clicks with it right, yeah its good. However, it generally just makes me not feel good about it as a mon to use to consistently win with. I'll obviously acknowledge its merits of a really good water swap in a meta where waters are good, which is why I am not ranking it lower.

Everything else
I don't like Mantyke. Even on rain, it is just too weak. It has good defensive merit's but why should I use this when I can use other pokemon like Gastly on rain who do the same thing for it defensively. Use the broken main mons, not ones like Mantyke and..
I don't like Buizel. He's weak and is ridiculously easy to be able to check. It's "good" on rain because its usable outside of rain, but just try to end the game quickly with the broken abusers of rain.
Mankey is bad. Every team ever is good into fighting STAB, but unlike Machop it doesn't punish its swaps well. You are forced to just U-Turn out or give up momentum in a meta like this if you get the turn wrong, which is detrimental. Just use a good scarfer like Cranidos or Wailmer instead. Fightspam is not good

Anddddd that's all from me. This tier is very fun and I enjoy it a lot. Expect me to be playing this in future tournaments if im not playing SS.

 

[Colin]

My tier list, I've not played dpp in team tournaments but I consider myself moderately knowledgeable

S, A+, and A

S tier: the best pokemon

- Munchlax is the best pokemon at trading and switching into neutral special attacks in the tier. there are no safe switch ins, but ghost types and Bronzor can attempt to switch in hoping Munchlax lacks the correct coverage. its often safer for special threats such as Chinchou to trade its life for most of Munchlax's hp, even though Munchlax switched in and took a hit.

A+: I fit 2 of 3 on most bulky offense builds

- almost the only pivot, or the best setup threat depending on moveset. Gligar is very fast, strong, bulky, and dependable and is the reason why choice scarfers are important in this tier

- Gastly is really threatening, with stabs, wisp, boom, sub, hp ground, and more are all potential threats on the standard oran berry set that can switch into and trade vs pursuit munchlax (rip if zen headbutt). Sash lead and choice scarf are also usable, but not as good generally. Monstrous threat

- definitely the worst pokemon in this tier, but its usually the best option as a cranidos switch in and bulky steel type. Bronzors probably the easiest pokemon to slot stealth rocks on, but high usage can often get punished by moveset techs or pokemon such as houndour or wynaut to trap or pressure it. Recycle sets are important to be able to KO, and allow bronzor to stick around if it needs to in some games. its also a useful rain or screens setter for offense teams

A: the best threats and water resists

- Stunky is the best pursuit trapper by far, it also restricts what hyper offense teams can get away with by having sucker punch. boom is always good but memento is a viable support tool as well.

- Cranidos is the most dangerous threat in the tier if it hits. your options to switch into head smash are Bronzor, Aron, and fighting types that usually need defense investment. faster scarfers and priority users can offensively threaten it, recoil can also limit Cranidos koes. Cranidos is best in the back but will sometimes lead anyway.

- Snover is a great lead with any of sash, scarf, or SD being viable. in the back, scarf is decent but slower than Cranidos, SD Oran Berry sets are usually more effective defensively and Munchlax cannot switch in on a potential SD. Snover is a great check to rain, but so-so vs water spam. Its good at forcing damage vs munchlax or bronzor early on for more dangerous threats later when used on lead.

- Chinchou is a dangerous water type threat that beats most other water types. Its typically going to switch into them and then trade vs Munchlax or itself, or if held in the back until those are chipped its a great setup sweeper. It needs support as a water resist, because water spam and rain especially will overwhelm it. Scarf isnt great but is usable too, and it has the benefit of outspeeding Cranidos/Wailmer with one equipped.

- Scarf wailmer is the best scarf lead and hits really hard. Water Spout, Hydro Pump, and boom should be slotted in, and make it great at trading, breaking and leaving, or as a wincon. back wail is good too, but early rocks can bite into it. Wailmer makes rainless water spam great offensively.

A- and B+

A-: threatening leads, rain, and Croagunk

- I think Croagunk is really good at what it does. it uniquely bullies Wailmer teams, and with max physdef can eat 2 Cranidos head smashes. special sets are okay and notably better vs rain and Cranidos with vacuum wave, but I prefer physical sets carrying sub thanks to having a better midground than icy wind vs most things. Having a poor accuracy stab on both sets hurts a lot, and phys sets sometimes are needing for power vs neutral targets.

- right now, Aipom as a lead suffers from success with many pokemon opting to slot protect for its fake out. Its incredible at utilizing trapping and selecting its coverage to beat the rest. I think U-turn should be slotted even though its coverage will be worse.

- can enable rain as a lead, or act as a fast attacker that also gets boom on lead. Voltorb's main problem unless carrying sash is Choice Scarf leads, and it needing hidden power for too many things on fast attacker sets.

- dynamic punch gives Machop a fighting chance against most leads, and also hits really hard. Protect and spread flexibility allow it to beat a lot of common leads. Going to a ghost type is dangerous because of payback and the commonly paired Stunky, but it can still be used to pivot. Back Machop is rare but not unusable.

- Omanyte hits insanely hard in the rain, and has great coverage. it can OHKO munchlax and bronzor in rain with a life orb, unlike kabuto.

- Kabuto also hits really hard, but on the physical end. It has more set versatility than Omanyte, and with aqua jet, SD, and a better speed tier its more likely to be able to finish the job if rain ends midway through a sweep.

- Staryu is decent outside of rain with a good speed tier and great coverage to help some water spam teams. I also like it on rain teams as a cleaner that doesn't depend on rain to be good

B+: niche but effective

- Koffing is a solid lead that mostly shuts down Machop, has good coverage and enough power, and can use wisp or boom. unfortunately with Aipom being good it wants to fit protect too so it has to sacrifice something. It also dislikes sash leads and water leads that are gaining popularity. Koffing in the back is decent too, but specific.

- Duskull has seen better days, but is really passive and hates pursuit. Its bulky, switches into munchlax, and clicks wisp. Gastly is way better though and can boom if it doesn't like its prospects in a game, unlike Duskull who can get stuck on the field.

- houndour is very unreliable at trapping Gastly and lacks boom. Wisp, Fire stab/typing, and not needing Lum Berry are what make it potentially better on some teams.

- Can fit on rain, or make semi rain work. Mantyke really needs Chinchou chipped and would like Munchlax to be chipped too to unlock its potential. Even if it can't sweep, its got a bunch of nice defensive traits and is good at slamming into Munchlax with its hydro pump being slightly stronger than Chinchou. run HP grass instead of electric so you can at least try to damage Chinchou.
- aron has a lot of trouble setting up and also needs chip on Gligar and Munchlax, in addition to Bronzor being gone or not eq. Aron does eat Cranidos's stab though and can sometime punish Stunky, wispless Gast, and Duskull really hard.

- Diglett traps things, Snover's hail and stealth rock make sash sets a lot more difficult to use.

- good on random HO structures such as screens, rain, and baton pass as either a support or a wincon. Gastly can usually do well on these teams too, even if its sometimes worse at doing what Drifloon does.

- Elekid is voltorb with more coverage, but without boom. it has less scary sets, compared to Voltorb who teams have to be wary of as an attacker, taunt user, and rain setter.

B and B- tiers

B tier: Good but niche Pokemon
- Porygon pairs with Munchlax or sometimes is used on screens teams. Lead Porygon trades positive vs a lot of things but lacks speed, agility in the back can sweep some weakened teams but Tri Attack not being legal with download hurts.

- Wynaut punishes Bronzor for existing, and can sometimes trap a weaker special threat. Its most commonly seen with Aipom to allow it to use non fire punch sets better, but will sometimes be seen on other off meta builds.

- Stunky uses pursuit on Gastly, and then uses memento and zigzagoon tries to win. Espeed is only +1 prio in gen 4, so faster priority can pick it off. its sometimes seen on screens, but it really needs Gastly gone so its just easier to have Stunky use memento.

- Bagon is a nice Pokemon on screens teams to help out vs Water spam and some rain builds. It tries to sweep with dragon dance outrage. Compared to Dratini, Bagon has fire fang, hits slightly harder, and is physically bulkier but does not have espeed and is specially frailer.

- Ponyta is the best fire type lead, and is really good at using wisp. Unfortunately, Water Spam teams are very common, and Ponyta has difficulty breaking through them.

:tailow: - guts tailow clicks facade, unfortunately pluck is so weak it wont even ohko gastly with a guts boost, and it has no good method of breaking resists on its own making it very team reliant. I think Brave Bird has potential on the right team, even if it does evaporate really fast.

B- tier: worse niche Pokemon that get used or I'm surprised that aren't

- Magnemite can potentially trap bronzor, and it gets boom. It wishes it had more than 4 moveslots. Its got a bunch of uniquely good traits paired together in a generally poor package.

- Krabby's an okay setup sweeper with good power and bulk + a water typing that is great for it but leaves it with heavy competition with a lot of things that need to be chipped since water type switch ins are stacked.

- Horsea exists on rain and isn't weak to Croagunk vac wave. I don't like it much or understand why you use this over Omanyte generally, but some people pair it with Omanyte

- Buizel typically gets used as a rain cleaner after the bigger hitter has gone in and attacked things. Its useful because its fast even outside of rain so it can be effective with Bulk Up even if rain ends midway through its sweep. I generally prefer Staryu over both Buizel and Horsea as a rain cleaner that can work outside of rain.

- Doduo clicks brave bird and return. Its one of the fastest Scarfers available, but I see other sets get used too.

 

[jhm5]

Hey, I'm going to be taking a break from mons. Figured I should drop some teams here. This is a cool tier and a great community. I'm not the best player, nor am I the best builder, so I'm sure a lot of it could be improved upon, but I hope this helps new players trying to get into DPP LC.

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[xzeroxman]

Some small errors I noted in the sample teams, not a huge issue but wanted to document it here. Some of them do not have the correct format type in the paste but I feel this is very minor and nitpicky so feel free to disregard.
Below each is an updated paste with the format and title as close as I could get that gives credit.
- Scarf Wailmer Balance by my boy Fantos13 Sand Veil is banned in DPP LC.
(The set is otherwise standard, I think this was likely just a mispaste when compiling everything.)
https://pokepast.es/fd1d22add8d115d4

The rest are title issues: Not sure how much this matters
- Semi Rain by Nails (has the name of the sample team above it on the list in the paste)
https://pokepast.es/ba1d830b35d8e13a
- Double Fighter by HSOWA (Untitled in the paste)
https://pokepast.es/066f30bbed5632b2
- Rain by HSOWA (Title is just "copy of rain")
https://pokepast.es/227f7172e7a3288e
- Snover Lead Standard by Melon (This one just has no title)
https://pokepast.es/496bd9dab6cab79c
- Screens by HSOWA (This one also has no title)
https://pokepast.es/27aca325e0fc0d76

 

[Mok3s]

LCWC DPP LC TEAM DUMP by Emolga
Hi, I’m mok3s. I’m still pretty new to this tier, my first DPP LC game was only last year, and between LCBC and LCWC I honestly didn’t get that much practice. Still, super glad to be drafted into Team China, and huge thanks to Nashrock for believing in me and slotting me every week.

W1 (N)
Nothing happens

W2 vs Melon (W)
Sample Rain
My goal for this tour was just to get at least one win, so I decided to bring the classic brainless cheese: Rain. I’d wanted to use it ever since seeing that post, and well… Melon brought a team with zero Water resists. Kabuto swept. Beautiful.

W3 vs Alder ST (W)
Lead Chop + Crani
After my first WC win I started feeling more comfortable, so I tried building on my own. Chomp and Crani are top-tier among my favorite mons in this format, so I wanted to pair them. The matchup was tough and I only won because of a speed tie. The team is very weak to Scarf Gligar, but luckily my opponent didn’t bring it.

W4 vs evankiyama! (L)
Lead Elekid + Chop
As mentioned, I really like Chomp, and based on scouting I thought Elekid would be a good lead into them. The rest of the team was basically: Munch, a Munch check, a Rain check, and a random mon to fill the slot. I lost because I choked super hard. I got excited thinking I was about to get my third WC win, didn’t consider the possible crit, and paid for it. It was avoidable but we learn from mistakes. Next time I won’t choke like that.

W5 vs Quagg (L)
Lead Ponyta + scarf Gligar
Scout suggested that a Fire lead could be strong into Quagg. At first I thought about Chimchar, but quickly realized it wasn’t a great idea and then I saw the GOAT Ponyta. This mon hits insanely hard. Teambuilding was fun because my Gligar check was Duskull, but I ended up losing to Stunky + SD Gligar anyway (QwQ).

W6 vs Alkione (W)
Gligar + Ponyta
After last week, Ponyta officially became one of my honey mons, so I wanted to use it again but real life got busy and I didn’t have time to build. Hybone sent me a team and I said: “Perfect.” Matchup was good; Alkione brought a team I had scouted, with Toxic Spikes. Double Poison worked great here.

W7 vs mayo (W)
By this week we already knew we were out of playoffs, so prep was basically just picking a team I liked. I rolled dice and reused the Gligar + Ponyta team. Won via speed tie but it didn’t really matter since we were already out.

Now that the tournament is over, I just want to say a few words of thanks. First of all, huge thanks to all my teammates. I really enjoyed playing with you all this season, the prep, the testing, the discussions, the support. I learned a lot and had a great time throughout the event. The final result might not be perfect, but the experience was super rewarding, and it definitely made me want to keep improving. Hopefully I’ll get the chance to play with you all again in the future.
Special thanks to burstbean and hybone for helping me so much with building and testing you two are truly goated.
I also have to mention Octperlover. My LC journey basically started with me being your testing bot, and you’re the one who made me fall in love with this tier.
And of course I can’t forget my goat Hacker, the person who pulled me into DPP LC. <3

Lastly, thank you to everyone who supported us along the way. See you next season!

 

[Hon07rial]

Lead Chomp + Crani

this link does not work

 

[Mok3s]

this link does not work

done

 

[Eeveeto]

Eric told me that the DPPWC post I made was in the wrong thread, so putting a link to it here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-lc-viability-ranking.3694347/#post-10797219

 

[tazz]

We should ban Cranidos.

As I've started to build in this tier again, I've noticed how incredibly constraining Cranidos is in the builder, and how ridiculous it is in-game. Nothing in the meta can withstand a combination of head smash and earthquake. Even "prepared" teams running bronzor depend on the Cranidos user not clicking EQ on a whim. And the more you use cranidos, the more people will load bronzor into you, and the more you can click earthquake.

The mon is somewhat moderated by terrible accuracy on head smash, but this just brings many of the games it appears in down to coinflips. It usually only takes one or two pokemon to go down for cranidos to clean the last 3 mons of a given team, as long as it can hit through its accuracy.

I've found Cranidos unhealthy in the builder and in-game. The meta would be better off without it.

 

[Eeveeto]

^Cranidos is indeed a very strong Mon and I nominated it previously for A+, since it will almost always kill something. That being said, it's worn down by its strongest move, provided it doesn't miss in first place, which can be abused by bulkiest Munchlax spreads, which have huge HP, it absolutely cant switch into status (or into almost anything, working usually as revenge killer), it's weak to priority (Vacuum Wave and Sucker Punch), not immune to Hail and has niche checks such as Hippopotas, Phanpy and Trapinch. Cranidos is a very strong contender for Top 5 Mon in the meta, but I don't believe it's broken.
The only thing close to broken or unhealthy in the current Meta is Diglett (who is such in every Gen) , but even it it's at its worst LC meta and if it has ever been balanced in a LC Meta, it's in this specific Gen. I don't think any action is needed, except maybe retest something to add some variety.

 

[Nineveh]

This might be a little subjective, but I also feel like the variance Cranidos brings to the table is genuinely out there because of how game deciding it can be, in many more ways than strictly Head Smash missing.

It feels like the game goes out of my hands much more often than any other Pokemon both when I am the one using it or I am the one running into it (bar Machop for obvious reasons).
236+ Atk Mold Breaker Cranidos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Gligar: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
This calc has to be one of the most deciding and recurring calc I have seen in recent DPP LC, and while risk appetite has and will always be a key skill in mons, this calc still feels miserable to interact with, lowkey Crani would feel less annoying if this just straight up killed consistently.
While not exactly "variance" we also have a bunch of situations where it is down to guesswork in a tier where momentum can carry you to a win off a single positive play - as tazz pointed the random EQ click on your Bronzor being one. Pursuit interactions with Stunky and Munchlax, while you can both sometimes -somewhat commonly- get in spots where you are favored, also sometimes end up in pure embarassing 50/50s in a tier that already tends to have a few.

Last this is not a specific Cranidos issue, it just contributes to this environment where games often rely on "Last Unrevealed X wins" - it is a pain to maneuver in a way you don't lose to last mon SD Snover/Bagon or Tini/Life Orb Elekid/Tyke, and Cranidos makes this worse as you might get punished for eventually losing your Gligar/Zor and then proceed to lose to unrevealed 6th mon Scarf Crani that a ton of structure can afford to fit.


Despite this I am not entirely sure we take action on Crani, but moreso because I personally don't really feel like the tier is in desperate need of tiering action and is essentially stable (Sand Veil ban being more of a policy/dumb issue being addressed than a meaningful change), but I am not very accountable on whether we want to shake old tiers up or not.

 

[Hacker]

I sympathize pretty heavy with Cranidos bringing a lot of bad gamestates. I think in particular Cranidos in the back can be pretty unhealthy seeing as the responses to it are typically tools you use early game, where you have no idea if you need to preserve these things for a possible Cranidos or not. Any mon can do this and it can be said about a lot of mons, but none of these mons have nearly as much variance or autowin potential that Cran does.

However, ultimately, I think this tier is incredibly fun as it is, and ranks super high for me on how competitive I think this tier is compared to other gens on top of that. I don't really think Cranidos getting banned would change this tier or have very much impact at all, but despite me being pretty easygoing about oldgen tiering action I still have some hesitation for a test. The tier as it is right now is perfectly fine and I think everyone who plays the tier rn would agree with that. If it aint broke, don't fix it type shit. With all this in mind, I would lean towards voting do not ban despite not being completely opposed to the idea and would certainly like to hear more input from common starters across tours with DPP in them.

 

[reggg]

Banning Cranidos would be an absolute travesty to the tier and quite simply makes no sense to pursue. As Eeveeto pointed out, Crani is worn down incredibly quickly. Between Rocks, Hail, and most obviously Head Smash recoil. Lets look at a calc shall we.

Head Smash vs Munchlax, Crani is taking 64% or 16 hp, leaving it at 9 hp. Its now in range of Ice Shard from snover right away, in range of Duskull Shadow Sneak when rocks and hail are up (or a higher invested attack Duskull).

Croagunk does 75% with Vacuum Wave, meaning its dead after nearly any chip (because its obviously always taking chip).

Stunky Sucker Punch and Aftermath are even more ways to chip it, and if you are Life Orb you can even OHKO it with sucker after rocks.

Machop can carry Bullet Punch.

Bronzor is a real switch in to head smash and gets necessary chip for all this damage being thrown around.

My point is this: Yes, Cranidos is obviously strong. But it kills itself and puts itself in range of priority so quickly over the course of the match that this is not a serious issue. Crani is typically getting no more than 2 kills ever because of its issues with recoil. There are multiple ways to revenge it with priority, using some of the top mons in the tier. There are choice scarfers who can outspeed it (Gligar, Chinchou, Gastly, Timid Wailmer, Mankey). There are even pokemon you can choose to use to especially have a good Crani switch in (Trapinch, Hippo, Onix, Sash Diglett/LO Sucker Diglett, Aron). Rain threats can outspeed it. There are so many ways to handle Cranidos in the builder and in game. This is such cope to want to ban it, its not even the best Choice Scarfer (Wail is more consistent).

On the topic of wanting to ban it because variance, this is even worse of an argument. We want to to ban Crani because it has innacurate moves, because it misses? The irony of this being posted after Tazz dodged Head Smash to win the game should not be forgotten. Do we prefer Crani to never miss Head Smash, for the sake of reduced variance?

Im being a bit hyperbolic with some of these points but I truly do not understand the desire to ban Crani. There are so many avenues to deal with it. Cranidos is no different than some other "Last mon wins when its checks are gone" in this offensive, trade heavy tier. Do not touch DPP please, its the best and we are seeing innovation constantly even to this day, this is an extremely reactionary pathway that is completely unnecessary.

 

[abra xdd]

I agree with tazz, we should do a suspect test into cranidos. You must be asking, why?

We should ban Cranidos.

Cranidos is such a diverse mon, assuming lead, support and scarfer user. With an amazing ability 'Mold Breaker', guarantees his best counter, steel-types, being able to get hitted by Earthquake, since theres no Steel and Flying-types at the tier.
We must have in mind that, even with adamant nature, it gets a speed so high, potentially tieing with *ALMOST* all scarf users.
Cranidos bring the current DPP game to a maximum 50/50 game, where head smash and earthquake dominates it.
Also, due to his high attack and stab move, we just cant guarantee a revenge killer like Diglett, Stunky and even Wynaut.

I don't really think Cranidos getting banned would change this tier or have very much impact at all

Actually, i would say that, like running ORAS and SM team without flying resistance, running a team without Cranidos resistance its a high risk, since it gets a lot of awesome matchups and with Munchlax + Gastly pressure, could easily put Scarf Cranidos into a good position.

Here's a calc that literally prove that:

236+ Atk Cranidos Head Smash vs. 196 HP / 116 Def Aron: 11-13 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO
Aron is a Steel and Rock-type mon that RESISTS Head Smash, also it has 100 Def (5th most in the tier) and 50 HP (AVG Base for the tier).
We cant tell that this mon is something healthy for the meta, specially when u have non-preview mechanic.


So, i highly encourage a suspect test in it.

Thank you!

 

[AM]

If you're gonna look at anything either look at something regarding Machop's Dynamicpunch (mon or move) or Wynaut. While I can sympathize the idea of Cranidos because everybody has had a Cranidos moment playing this tier at some point in time, there's just way more centralizing stuff in relation to matchup issues that this ban wouldn't fix imo. I don't share the sentiment DPP is that great, mostly because of the first two things mentioned on top of the various dpp mechs and matchup issues across multiple good mons, but I'm obviously in the minority which is okay.

 

[RosebloomNixie]

I think Cran is pretty much the epitome of a mon who does two jobs very well but has exploitable flaws. I have expressed this before but I think Cran is propped up by the width of things needed to be prepped for in DPP but is not the biggest centralising factor in the builder (it's rain).

I wouldn't be opposed to tiering action, and if it is Cran so be it, but there is clearly a pick your battles situation int he builder. It's fun to build for at the moment to get creative lines to cover everything which is one of the main draws of the tier.

Cran specifically in lead wins matchups vs many good leads through pressure, but is also beaten outright by many leads and sets. And Cran in the back in outsped by most of the great scarfers and is able to be tanked enough to make recoil/hail/hazards matter enough that it kills itself on something making it at best 1 for 1.

 

[Fille]

Banning Cranidos would be an absolute travesty to the tier and quite simply makes no sense to pursue. As Eeveeto pointed out, Crani is worn down incredibly quickly. Between Rocks, Hail, and most obviously Head Smash recoil. Lets look at a calc shall we.
View attachment 816535
Head Smash vs Munchlax, Crani is taking 64% or 16 hp, leaving it at 9 hp. Its now in range of Ice Shard from snover right away, in range of Duskull Shadow Sneak when rocks and hail are up (or a higher invested attack Duskull).

Croagunk does 75% with Vacuum Wave, meaning its dead after nearly any chip (because its obviously always taking chip).

Stunky Sucker Punch and Aftermath are even more ways to chip it, and if you are Life Orb you can even OHKO it with sucker after rocks.

Machop can carry Bullet Punch.

Bronzor is a real switch in to head smash and gets necessary chip for all this damage being thrown around.

If your best counterplay is "Sac the most consistent mon in the entire tier then force it out", that's a clear indicator that something is wrong.
If your best counterplay drops to a single hit from guaranteed coverage, that's a clear indicator something is wrong. Because no, no one is gonna stay in on a fucking Shadow Sneak or Bullet Punch or Ice Shard or Sucker Punch or Vacuum Wave if they still have another Head Smash in the bank to kill something for free, and how are you getting these priority mons in again on Cran? With a sac.

Doesn't matter if the thing kills itself, if the fucker gets 2-3 kills before it does and it consistently does so then that's an issue.

Sidenote, I don't really have an issue with Cran itself myself, I don't mind how playing Dpp feels with that thing in the tier, both with and against.

 

[Zcarlett]

To be frank, I'm not sure if Cranidos is outwardly broken, but DPP LC would 100% be a better tier without Cranidos. Before getting into the bulk of what I have to say, it’s important to note that pretty much all “counterplay” to Cranidos requires either heavy prediction or sacking a pokemon to force it out. While this isn’t quite as problematic as something similar in modern gens like Rufflet in SS and SV simply due to the fast-paced trade-heavy nature of DPP LC, it is still a massive red flag for a pokemon that creates unhealthy dynamics.

To state the obvious, relying on 80% accurate moves sucks for a pokemon that hits this hard. Despite how often we see Hydro Pump and similarly inaccurate moves, no other pokemon is tied to these moves to get value in the same way Cranidos is. The only other pokemon relying on similarly inaccurate moves is Croagunk, but this pokemon’s value is instead found in its ability to come in on strong water-type attacks and force the opponent to play guessing games with its coverage options, rather than big fighting-type stabs. If you've played enough DPP LC, you've almost certainly won and lost matches based onHead Smash or Stone Edge accuracy checks. I believe discrediting or discounting someone's opinion because of a particularly famous example is entirely unproductive to the conversation at hand. Fundamentally, a pokemon this strong and difficult to play around defensively being balanced out by a 20% chance to just do nothing is taking agency away from the players.

While counterplay isn't completely non-existent, I think it is quite limited and greatly overstated. Letting Cranidos chip itself out is the most common approach, but I do not think it's always consistent. A well-positioned Cranidos can get away with only clicking Earthquake and Stone Edge until the mid-endgame, as in a lot of cases, the person facing a Cranidos is forced to respect the Head Smash on what is usually a pokemon they need to preserve. Every time Cranidos hits the field is a mind game as a result, but the overwhelming majority of cases result in you losing a pokemon to Cranidos. Even situations you “won” by getting it to click Head Smash into a disposable pokemon. There is counterplay to a Cranidos locked into Earthquake with something like Gligar, but this often just results in something coming to check these 2 defensively, since any team that cannot do this is a bad team. Additionally, an unrevealed last Cranidos can overwhelm most teams. Even if you know it and are actively trying to play around it, the fact that it has taken no chip damage can make it a death sentence.

Priority is something that works on paper but is often unreliable in practice. Stunky is often trading 1 for 1 or just dying to Gastly if it loses the speed-tie to Explosion or Hidden Power Ground, Machop is uncommon outside of the lead slot and lead Machop isn’t something preserved super heavily and often doesn’t carry Bullet Punch/Vacuum Wave, and while Croagunk doesn’t have any of these issues on a surface level, it is by far the hardest of the 3 and a little restrictive on building to run constantly.
Running a scarfer faster than Cranidos is the most surefire method here, but not something every team can afford to do. Most of the common scarfers faster than Cranidos, like Chinchou, Gastly, and Gligar, have non-scarf sets that teams may rely on. These scarfers also struggle to make as much progress as the other scarfers simply due to how many resists a team packs to deal with their non-scarf variant. If you’ve ever tried running Scarf Gastly in the past, you’ve almost certainly had a Stunky switch in for the easiest pursuit trap. While Gligar and Chinchou don’t have issues quite this extreme, they are also in similar predicaments where they lack the raw power to deal significant damage to their resists or aren’t scary enough in the endgame compared to other scarfers like Wailmer and Snover. I deliberately do not mention Mankey because I personally do not think it is very good or easy to fit onto teams. Wailmer, Timid or not, is the easiest and most consistent thing to fit on teams to help deal with Cranidos, because even if you’re in a speed-tie with Cranidos, it is often forced to click Head Smash to get the kill on Wailmer, which creates a no-win scenario where it either just dies to a water move or takes too much from recoil. Even so, you need a good double switch or a sack to safely get your scarfer safely in on Cranidos.

To the people who want to preserve Cranidos because DPP LC is a fantastic metagame right now and don't want to touch it as a result, what exactly are the knock-on effects of banning Cranidos? I love DPP LC and think it is in a fantastic spot personally, but it could always be better, and there's no reason to keep a pokemon as unhealthy as Cranidos around when there are no noticeable changes to the meta beyond fringe off-beat choices specifically to counter it. Bronzor still provides an immense amount of defensive support to teams while freeing the burden of stealth rock from other pokemon, the primary reason people run priority isn't for Cranidos the majority of the time, as its rock-resist often feels like more of a bonus. Fast scarfers are still desirable on teams because the other best scarfers in the tier (Snover and Wailmer) are in a similar speed range as Cranidos. Pretty much none of the best priority pokemon are run because of Cranidos or even matchup well into it (Aipom, Zigzagoon, or anything else with normal-type priority attacks).I take issue with a Machop ban due to how it completely uproots the lead metagame, regardless of how uncompetitive Machop is, would drastically change the meta of the tier. I cannot see Cranidos having the same impact beyond losing the Sash Lead set, which is already of debatable competitive integrity due to its reliance on the 80% accurate Rock Tomb. Keeping the metagame the same simply because you’re afraid it may get worse as a result of any tiny change does not feel like a particularly compelling argument.

 

[reggg]

Keeping the metagame the same simply because you’re afraid it may get worse as a result of any tiny change does not feel like a particularly compelling argument.

To the people who want to preserve Cranidos because DPP LC is a fantastic metagame right now and don't want to touch it as a result, what exactly are the knock-on effects of banning Cranidos?

I'm not sure if Cranidos is outwardly broken, but DPP LC would 100% be a better tier without Cranidos.

So, we want to ban a mon that people dont even think is broken. Because it maybe makes the game better. The onus is not on those who want to preserve the status quo to logic out why a hypothetical meta with crani banned is worse or better. It's on those who want to ban it to explain why this is a banworthy mon. There is nothing wrong with the meta, Cranidos is not banworthy because it has legitimate checks and multiple ways to play around it. I just cannot get over this incessant demand that we need to ban Crani not because its banworthy but because its somehow unhealthy, when theres so many avenues for playing around it. Quite frankly, utterly ridiculous that this discussion is being had when Machop is right there (I dont even want chop banned but come on)

 

[Zcarlett]

I'm going to start this by saying the last paragraph may have been unnecessarily harsh, and seen more as a personal attack rather than a good faith way to engage in a discussion like this. I do apologize for that.

So, we want to ban a mon that people dont even think is broken.

I think Cranidos is deeply unhealthy for the metagame as it stands, which is debatably worse than a pokemon simply being "broken". This is not a 1 to 1 comparison so please do not treat it as such, but I do not think anyone clamoring for Sand Veil to be banned would have considered it broken and more so unhealthy. I find it difficult to call a pokemon that can just do nothing 1/5th outwardly broken, even if it would be broken without the inaccuracy.

Cranidos is not banworthy because it has legitimate checks and multiple ways to play around it.

I have my reservations about this, even with everything said in the thread so far.
1) All counterplay that isn't central to your opponent clicking Head Smash multiple times in the early game requires you to sack a pokemon or win a prediction every time you want to force Cranidos out
2) All pokemon that can force Cranidos out (or trap it) are niche, non standard sets, and/or require a lot of care to build a team around that isn't just worse into everything else besides Cranidos structures.
3) The couple of pokemon that fair well into Cranidos have other roles that are needed to fill within a match and are likely to be out of commission before Cranidos even hits the field (mainly Machop Stunky)

This makes the building process a frustrating balancing act centralized around answering Cranidos with one of the few viable and splash-able answers to it while making a team that's good into the rest of the meta. If you don't already have a bunch of ideas for this specific kind of structure in mind before going into a tour it can be incredibly draining and often just ends with you hoping your opponent doesn't bring Cranidos in the name of bringing a novel team.

 

[RosebloomNixie]

I will say that over-centralisation is grounds for banning both in old tiering and new tiering philosophies. So I think a suspect on Crani would be fine, as I mentioned I think taking away one of the builder pressures would do wonders for the tier even though it's awesome at the moment none of the prospective bans would make it any less so. I would be up for debate on what it is as I said before, but Cran seems to be the flavour. I'd be interested in probably a revisit of this after LCCL and LCPL with maybe an invitational with cran banned to check it out.

Basically zcar is fine with their takes, but I also think it's a wait and have more debate type thing.

 

[tko]

Please address Dynamic Punch first, would love to see us follow suit with OU for once

 

[SEA]

Please address Dynamic Punch first, would love to see us follow suit with OU for once

I would very much like to second this, there is no legitimate reason for us to keep Dynamic Punch around. Machop is still a valuable trade piece, so I think keeping it around is a positive, but Machop has 2 extremely viable alternatives to Dynamic Punch: Close Combat if you want to run Guts, and Cross Chop if you want to run No Guard, which has the exact same power and PP as DPunch. Added crit chance is a little cheesy, sure, but would you rather take a 50% chance to not use a move or a 12.5% chance to be crit? Machop forcing coinflips both in swaps into punch and literal confusion flips is a net negative on this format. Please nuke dpunch.

 

[Eeveeto]

If I get to vote on this, I would preserve Dpunch (I like RNG strats, especially if very few Mons get to abuse them), but it has a way bigger ground for a Ban than Cranidos, that's undeniable.