My mans been dropping peak of the decade
I always wondered; how does the ice spam team deal with cm valiant that runs moonblast, sball and tbolt? That MU for the same move set seems rough
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [ survey results -- see post 21,221 ]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I always wondered; how does the ice spam team deal with cm valiant that runs moonblast, sball and tbolt? That MU for the same move set seems rough
Just my random thoughts since now both OST and SPL are over for me.
Interesting SPL Stats from regular season:
Sprite Pokemon Usage % Lead % Win Rate w/o Mirror
Samurott-Hisui 503.002 41 11.39% 17.07% 65.85% 67.57%
Walking Wake 1009.001 35 9.72% 20.00% 65.71% 68.97%
Clefable 36.001 29 8.06% 34.48% 62.07% 62.96%
Pecharunt 1025.001 66 18.33% 9.09% 57.58% 58.93%
Garganacl 934.001 28 7.78% 14.29% 57.14% 57.14%
Ogerpon 1017.001 21 5.83% 28.57% 71.43% 73.68%
From what we can see the metagame right now rewards a lot more the solidility and anti offense picks, as a desperate way to check all the huge threats stacked together that centralize SV OU. I don't want to write a wall of text but I find absurd how this is still not enough to block Dragonite from destroying the metagame.
Rank Sprite Pokemon Usage % Lead % Win Rate w/o Mirror
1
Dragonite 149.001 34.44% 2.42% 53.23% 55.13%
I know that probably asking for a Dragonite ban is too much since it also provides more defensive roles, but what worries me is its diverse Tera Pool options and the fact that Terablast + Encore is able to break through the majority of both defensive and offensive builds. Maybe considering a Terablast Ban would be the best solution to preserve an anchor of SV but also reducing the variance of the metagame. This also would make room in future maybe for a possible unbans of threats as Volcarona (which in some sense served as checks to common threats that dominate SV OU as well like Gambit, Zama, Darkrai etc).
Speaking of Volcarona, I'd say in some sense is not so different from Dragonite, with the difference that Dragonite has more offensive coverage and also has the combination of Encore + Multiscale, so I do not see why a potential action on Dragonite or Terablast should not be taken under serious consideration. That's why I'd like to ask if the council plans to take any action on Dragonite or again a survey after SPL and OST are over.
At this point I do not see the benefits of Terablast/Dragonite in current meta if not having them as a way to fish wins. It seems like a Pokemon which virtually can patch holes but in reality it just creates more variance and does not require a lot of effort to be piloted to break through opposing teams.
Obviously that's just my opinion, as long as I'd like some tiering action being taken I do not mind too if none is taken... but with still more than one year and a half of SV left maybe it's time we ask ourself some question about the current metagame, cya.
Interesting SPL Stats from regular season:
Sprite Pokemon Usage % Lead % Win Rate w/o Mirror
Samurott-Hisui 503.002 41 11.39% 17.07% 65.85% 67.57% Walking Wake 1009.001 35 9.72% 20.00% 65.71% 68.97% Clefable 36.001 29 8.06% 34.48% 62.07% 62.96% Pecharunt 1025.001 66 18.33% 9.09% 57.58% 58.93% Garganacl 934.001 28 7.78% 14.29% 57.14% 57.14% Ogerpon 1017.001 21 5.83% 28.57% 71.43% 73.68%From what we can see the metagame right now rewards a lot more the solidility and anti offense picks, as a desperate way to check all the huge threats stacked together that centralize SV OU. I don't want to write a wall of text but I find absurd how this is still not enough to block Dragonite from destroying the metagame.
Rank Sprite Pokemon Usage % Lead % Win Rate w/o Mirror
1
Dragonite 149.001 34.44% 2.42% 53.23% 55.13%I know that probably asking for a Dragonite ban is too much since it also provides more defensive roles, but what worries me is its diverse Tera Pool options and the fact that Terablast + Encore is able to break through the majority of both defensive and offensive builds. Maybe considering a Terablast Ban would be the best solution to preserve an anchor of SV but also reducing the variance of the metagame. This also would make room in future maybe for a possible unbans of threats as Volcarona (which in some sense served as checks to common threats that dominate SV OU as well like Gambit, Zama, Darkrai etc).
Speaking of Volcarona, I'd say in some sense is not so different from Dragonite, with the difference that Dragonite has more offensive coverage and also has the combination of Encore + Multiscale, so I do not see why a potential action on Dragonite or Terablast should not be taken under serious consideration. That's why I'd like to ask if the council plans to take any action on Dragonite or again a survey after SPL and OST are over.
At this point I do not see the benefits of Terablast/Dragonite in current meta if not having them as a way to fish wins. It seems like a Pokemon which virtually can patch holes but in reality it just creates more variance and does not require a lot of effort to be piloted to break through opposing teams.
Obviously that's just my opinion, as long as I'd like some tiering action being taken I do not mind too if none is taken... but with still more than one year and a half of SV left maybe it's time we ask ourself some question about the current metagame, cya.
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I just want to say on this that this is a very valid feeling. A lot of mons that in previous generations would not see daylight in OU are allowed in OU this Gen and with the addition of terastilization, it makes checking stuff even more difficult. And it’s true you can’t possibly predict every set your opponent can run.
However I will say that I disagree that it’s “impossible” to plan your game that’s simply not true. You can easily create teams where almost every MU there’s AT LEAST something you can do about it. For example let’s say you have a bad Match up against web teams. You can have a Ogerpon or a Choice band clear body Dragapult, which are pretty splashable on BO/Balance teams. Your team may generally be weak to that one matchup but you have something that can bail you out of that bad matchup.
Speaking about cheese in general, there is not much you can do about a Mickey Tera blast set for example. I say Mickey because usually you can expect Tera blast from Mons like kingambit, dragonite, iron moth, etc but you can’t always expect Tera blast from a freaking excadrill or samurott or iron crown for example. You can’t always tell when a random physical attacker is running Tera blast electric to snipe corviknight, moltres, etc or a random special attacker running Tera blast ground to snipe gholdengo or glowking, that’s the thing with Tera blast. What you can do however, is use the fact that your opponent burned their Tera to your advantage. “Oh you Tera’d your tusk?? Now my kingambit looks good in the late game since I still have my Tera in tact”. Yea your opponent may have cheesed you with that one Tera, but they burned a very important resource which can cause them to lose the endgame.
Another thing you can do to scout cheese is simply just set up hazards. If you have rocks up and dnite comes in and takes rocks damage, that will give you a lot of clues about what dnite set you will be facing. It will also reveal if dnite is lefties or not, if it’s not lefties the. You can expect covert cloak since that’s like the third most popular dnite item behind boots and lefties. This limits your chances of getting cheesed by dnite.
But onto the examples you listed, this seems like a skill and builder issue rather than a “cheese” issue. Bulky glimmora is a pretty standard set that’s not something I would really consider cheese. You shouldn’t really be spamming contact moves into glimmora knowing it has toxic debris and can easily just Tera to tank those physical hits.
Scarf Twave is also fairly common on choice scarf users like gholdengo and darkrai, that’s just something you have to keep up with the meta to know. There’s also a lot of decent midgrounds into stuff like that like ting Lu, iron treads for example.
Lastly stored power clef… is kinda trash I can’t lie. Literally a lot of teams carry encore, trick, phazing moves like whirlwind, roar, etc and taunt. Dont get me wrong you can probably larp with unaware clef if you run heavy duty boots but even then clef is losing out on important recovery which is not ideal for a bulky sweeper like clef. You can also just… fire off strong attacks in front of it??? Like clef gets 2hkoed by most attackers in the tier, so you can literally just chip it down very easily.
I understand feeling frustrated by cheese on ladder, especiallly in SV but acting like these matchups are impossible to deal with or There’s nothing you can do about it is nonsense.
And if you do get cheesed on ladder just move on, it’s not the end of the world. You’re not facing that one cheese set for the next 20 games you load unless ladder is inactive and you’re loading into the same person again.
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What’s really funny is that scarf twave can actually be used as a quick paralysis option against sweepers that outspeed non scarf rai. Like I know that valiant is booster speed and with my scarf rai I can use twave so valiant becomes one of the slowest mons on that team. I just hope it doesn’t attack or anything
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The best way is just to preserve prim since it's just a generally good midground into every val set. If it's needed to check something else then the next best option is probably to defensively tera kyurem
Now that the meta has been stable for quite a while, are there any pokemon or sets that people here think have been under-explored/have potential in niche roles?
I think Vaporeon and Jirachi could have a decent niche as wish-turn passers. Vaporeon having water absorb and scald could have some decent use in OU if you can find a way to check Wogrepon.
Jirachi has been used more in OU, but wish+stealth rock/encore+u-turn+iron head/psynoise has pretty good synergy with Ting Lu and Pecharunt for h-stack teams as it can switch in on Kyurem’s ice moves and keep teammates healthy.
Mew also could have some very small niche on hazard teams with access to knock off, hazards, wisp/twave, and the rest of its vast movepool.
Lastly, and perhaps the most of stretch, Swampert has rocks, knock, and a pivoting move. There must be some small scenario where a team needs a ground type that does all of those things.
I am curious to hear if what mons or sets better players than I have in mind.
I think Vaporeon and Jirachi could have a decent niche as wish-turn passers. Vaporeon having water absorb and scald could have some decent use in OU if you can find a way to check Wogrepon.
Jirachi has been used more in OU, but wish+stealth rock/encore+u-turn+iron head/psynoise has pretty good synergy with Ting Lu and Pecharunt for h-stack teams as it can switch in on Kyurem’s ice moves and keep teammates healthy.
Mew also could have some very small niche on hazard teams with access to knock off, hazards, wisp/twave, and the rest of its vast movepool.
Lastly, and perhaps the most of stretch, Swampert has rocks, knock, and a pivoting move. There must be some small scenario where a team needs a ground type that does all of those things.
I am curious to hear if what mons or sets better players than I have in mind.
I think i will start by saying that Conkeldurr might have a small niche in the tier as a trick room user that is able to take advantage of its high attack and access to tera normal + facade. Although Ursaluna outclasses him in this role, STAB Drain Punch for healing is something that is worth a while. Access to knock too which can make for an excellent mid ground
Another niche I could think of is that Hippowdon could be used as an alternative to Tyranitar, with access to reliable recovery and Whirlwind along with STAB Earthquake. Although it does not gain the Sp. Def boost from sand.
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Speaking about Vaporeon, I did come up with a team for it. It was a bootspam stall kinda.
https://pokepast.es/bb20a0de77305821
It’s a team consisting of these 6
Haven’t tested much but I do have a tour replay where vaporeon did put in work. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2542168296-erawqco5xphejq16xlhcofd1j2iml60pw It bullied the dnite & iron moth here.
And a low ladder replay on an alt against a sun team https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2541484179
Now for the set:
Ability: Water Absorb
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Scald
- Roar
I was originally thinking Tera normal for Ceruledge but was like, eeh, maybe it spinblocking here could be useful, plus being immune to fighting is nice. Roar is actually pretty useful for phazing out mons trying to set up on you. Although of course like any other wish bot this folds to taunt encore etc.
The interesting thing about vaporeon is its access to the ability water absorb. Usually stall teams would just get
or 
as their waters, but against rain those guys can easily be overwhelmed by a Tera water barraskewda or basculegion especially if they have taken chip prior to switch in and could risk defense drops facing even more chip. To not have to worry about any of that at all is something that made vaporeon a compelling option to add on this team over the usual waters.
I think Thundurus-Therian has a niche as an hyper offense wallbreaker/sweeper, whether it's running Specs or Nasty Plot. Its monstrous SpAtk and coverage options let it (in theory) break a lot of defensive cores. Also, Volt Absorb is a really nice ability that lets it switch in against Zapdos and Raging Bolt. I have tried it in both a dual screens and Aurora Veil setup and I found that it only worked well when treated as the win condition. It really struggles to make progress without proper hazard removal or if the opponent has proper speed control, since its middling bulk means that it gets OHKOed pretty easily without screens. Regardless of the strict conditions, Thundurus-T can be a very potent wallbreaker/sweeper that I've enjoyed using recently.
Maybe these picks aren't really "underexplored" but I still think Meowscarada, Weavile, and Ogerpon-C have amazing niches in this meta and are still super solid pokemon. Weavile's boots set w/ low kick worked pretty well for me on a offense I cooked up for the 1750 ladder range. It lures alot of gambit sets and threatens a hella ton of mons. SD is still pretty solid too.
Meows' band / scarf sets are still great too. its fast and hits very hard with flower trick. I think the rediscovery of tealpon kind of makes its niche a bit less valuable but its ability to outspeed without tera makes it a very real pick, and a strong knock + u turn off of protean will mean its never truly useless in a game.
Cornerpon has basically no switchins. I think I've talked about this before but its wallbreaking + trading abilities are perhaps superior to pons. its typing and utility are far worse but it's walled by almost nothing besides gambit / ghold if you choose to run and sd set with a single coverage option.
I wanna try a bulky horn leech set with this at some point it might have potential.
I also still don't really get why ribombee isn't used for webs more. it beats hatt if you get the mindgames right, is faster and can stun spore ace, and still absolutely demolishes the elephants (you just webs twice on treads, then go ghold)
Gyarados w/dd looks decent on paper but i havent really used it enough to say anything else & its definetly outclassed by mons like dnite
Finally, i'll mention hisuian arcanine, who, while needing a good team to support it, can blow through almost any defensive core with its STABS and still retain value in revenge killing with espeed (tera boosted or not).
This stuff aside I also came here to ask when we're going to have new sample teams. The ones out there right now are not bad just kind of outdated imo.
I think Rotom-Wash is really underrated rn. Volt Switch + Hydro Pump is really harrasing to a lot of team structures, specially those who use the elephants and/or Lando as the Ground type of choice, and Wisp allows it to be a soft check to almost any physical attacker like Kingambit or Weavile, while also packing the important Ice resistance, Flying resistance and Ground immunity to check many variants of Dragonite. It is also one of the best checks to Torn-T, stopping a lot of it's ways to make progress like Taunt + Knock Off or NP sets
Even Pain Split annoys defensive teams when you are on low health, and the Grass types that can check it like Rillaboom or Ogerpon-Teal/Wellspring are terrified of burns, while you can Volt Switch out of bad matchups like Kyurem or Slowking Galar.
My main problem is that it is spikes fodder for Ting-Lu, and that it's defensive stats can feel underwhelming sometimes, but these things can be played around
Because bee is a glass cannon web setter (60/60/70 bulk is not something you wanna see) and araq generally has better bulk, typing and ability (bug/fairy is not great)
Why would the bulk matter more than speed on a pokemon thats supposed to be a suicide lead anyway? The typing is definetly better but it works the same against removal options besides treads. And ribombee has far more utility than araquanid as i said before, from skill swap, to stun spore, to even random tailwind
Water STAB is greatly beneficial on a mon that wants to deal with Treads. For Araq, he also has STAB Lunge/Leech Life for hatt switch-ins
Bee may be faster with access to skill swap, but she has regieleki levels of bulk and it really doesnt help that resisted hits even OHKO it
I do understand what you said
Pretty sure water would do more
it can always live one cos sash. unless its like booster tachyon crown
So another niche mon I do think is underrated would have to be 
. While it is outclassed by other defensive flyers like , or 
, she can actually operate perfectly fine!
https://pokepast.es/00aaac23496d9f7d
I first thought of a duo consisting of choice specs and specially defensive . Specs drei enables as the teams primary wallbreaker and attacker, while mandi was the teams go to wall.
Issue with her is… she’s extremely passive. 65/55 offenses really isnt gonna cut it, but it has STAB foul play to stop physical setup sweepers such as
and , which makes it a good counter to them. A thing I’ll mention is both offensively and defensively, dark/flying is really underrated. A neutrality to u-turn and ground immunity is huge, which also brings in a psychic immunity, a rocks weakness may suck, but oh boy shes also to take hits for days, and has access to reliable recovery with roost.
While mandi IS outclassed, idt shes the worst, its viable but it cant fit on most teams (she best fits on stall and balance imo)
I find her to be a interesting defensive pivot that is able to send in fast glass cannons that really cant switch in
tl;dr I find mandi really underrated, but shes ultra passive which means most opponents are free to do what they like. Plus shes outclassed but usable
. While it is outclassed by other defensive flyers like , or , she can actually operate perfectly fine!https://pokepast.es/00aaac23496d9f7d
I first thought of a duo consisting of choice specs
and specially defensive . Specs drei enables as the teams primary wallbreaker and attacker, while mandi was the teams go to wall.Issue with her is… she’s extremely passive. 65/55 offenses really isnt gonna cut it, but it has STAB foul play to stop physical setup sweepers such as
and , which makes it a good counter to them. A thing I’ll mention is both offensively and defensively, dark/flying is really underrated. A neutrality to u-turn and ground immunity is huge, which also brings in a psychic immunity, a rocks weakness may suck, but oh boy shes also to take hits for days, and has access to reliable recovery with roost.While mandi IS outclassed, idt shes the worst, its viable but it cant fit on most teams (she best fits on stall and balance imo)
I find her to be a interesting defensive pivot that is able to send in fast glass cannons that really cant switch in
tl;dr I find mandi really underrated, but shes ultra passive which means most opponents are free to do what they like. Plus shes outclassed but usable
Araquanid has more utility options whether its endure+custap with endeavor cheese or mirror coat to fuck with some special attackers (which i dont think mirror coat is too common but it does exist).
There's just multiple uses for it while ribombee is a one trick pony, your araquanid might be against 5 boots/defoggers and its still a pain in the ass for gliscor and company, ribombee's life is meaningless in those situations, doesn't matter if its as slow as ariados or as fast as deoxys it just doesn't do anything else. If ariados had endeavor and some bulk it'd probably do the same thing just checking fairies instead of grounds, being slow means you're guaranteed webs going last every turn or endeavor.
There's just multiple uses for it while ribombee is a one trick pony, your araquanid might be against 5 boots/defoggers and its still a pain in the ass for gliscor and company, ribombee's life is meaningless in those situations, doesn't matter if its as slow as ariados or as fast as deoxys it just doesn't do anything else. If ariados had endeavor and some bulk it'd probably do the same thing just checking fairies instead of grounds, being slow means you're guaranteed webs going last every turn or endeavor.
i think necrozma is pretty good in this gen as it has a plethora of moves and can run a lot of different sets, it can annoy a lot of team structures.
it offers good utility with stealth rock for more offensive structures and can heal itself with moonlight, it also gets knock off for removal and with its pretty good special attack it can put a dent on the opponents team with its strong photon geysers, earth powers and more, prism armor is excellent and it can allow to 3HKO some super effective moves, i liked some setup sweeping sets with photon geyser + cm + idef + morning sun and found them to be pretty consistent and can beat a lot of offensive teams, it also has photon geyser to muscle past unaware mons after setting up with calm mind, i liked using the set below and with some support (with hazards and chip), necrozma turns into a wincon for your team.
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Iron Defense
- Photon Geyser
- Moonlight / Tera Blast
This is a funny set that i usually use, at +2 defense it can could take on physical mons and chip them with photon geyser, note that you cant beat most teams on your own and you need your teammates help to beat most dark types, i like pairing him with gambit because they both cover each others weaknesses, necrozma takes on tusk, gweez, and dozo and gambit beats stuff like ting lu and other gambits with low kick, beat gholdengo with kowtow and more, sometimes you run fairyblast to catch stuff like darkrai, dragapult and av ham, it is more of a niche option and removes necrozmas ability to heal so its not very consistent.
Overall i like using necrozma to goob ladder but it isnt always the perfect mon for the meta as it has own counters depending on the set, but I thought it was fun to use and can beat a pretty big proportion of the metagame, if i said anything wrong feel free to correct me.
I have breached the 1500s. If I make it to the top 500 I’ll make an RMT or something. #ampharosforou
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2562682775
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2562682775
Would a specs Dragapult (or just Dragapult in general) over Hydreigon help? Don't get me wrong Hydreigon is a fine enough mon but it is probably too slow for what you want. It would also give you a spin blocker which is always pretty cool (even if Pecharunt is also there)
A specs pult would definitely help. Double ghost would stink tho, or I could make the dreigon scarf
I had hydrei as a dark-type breaker with levitate which allows it to check specs pult (sball) with dark pulse and other steels with ep. Hydreigons 125 is better compared to pults 100
can comment on this specifically since I've used Gyarados quite a bit. it's got a decent defensive typing + bulk into the tier but it struggles with coverage. Water is a great STAB against the Grounds of the tier, but Waterfall is too weak to muscle past Corv, Zap, and Pech, much less Water resists like Mola and Kyurem. this is worsened by Gyarados's lack of secondary STAB and poor physical coverage because it either needs super effective attacks or Tera Blast to break past its checks, which are unfortunately plentiful. Tera Blast Flying is a strong option and even beats troublesome matchup Ogerpon, but Zapdos and Bolt make this difficult to rely on. Tera Ground EQ hits Pech and Bolt (plus Electric immunity) but you're walled by Ogerpon and DNite. let me actually give a special mention to these two for giving Gyarados a headache with their abilities. Multiscale makes DNite dangerous since it can easily setup on Gyarados and Water Absorb + Grass typing means Gyarados must respect it in the team builder. my best set was a bulky 3A Lum DD sweeper but the Tera reliance was awkward. here it is it anyone wants to try, overall Gyarados has great matchups and awful matchups and it can't deal with all of them easily. (speed outruns Ogerpon after one DD)
Gyarados @ Lum Berry
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Tera Blast
- Earthquake
From my experience the biggest issue with Mandi is the strain she puts on the rest of the team due to her typing. Most offensive mons in this meta are at least part fighting, dark or dragon. That alone makes it really easy to stack up on fairy/ice weaks on your team purely from your offensive mons. Mandi adds to both of those counts. If we simply talk about performance as a physical wall she is actually better than Corviknight/Skarmory, having a superior matchup against Dragonite and Wellspring on top of being able to beat Ceruledge and still having a decent matchup against Gambit. Corv/Skarm are shaky at best against Wellspring, can't do squat against Ceruledge and have to pick between handling Dnite and Gambit with their main attack i.e either Bodypress or Bravebird.So another niche mon I do think is underrated would have to be
https://pokepast.es/00aaac23496d9f7d
I first thought of a duo consisting of choice specs
Issue with her is… she’s extremely passive. 65/55 offenses really isnt gonna cut it, but it has STAB foul play to stop physical setup sweepers such as
While mandi IS outclassed, idt shes the worst, its viable but it cant fit on most teams (she best fits on stall and balance imo)
I find her to be a interesting defensive pivot that is able to send in fast glass cannons that really cant switch in
tl;dr I find mandi really underrated, but shes ultra passive which means most opponents are free to do what they like. Plus shes outclassed but usable
But every time i want to put her on a team i run into the issue of having too many fairy/ice weaks (I'd consider 3 of both as problematic already). There is also the fact that it doesn't make sense typing wise to pair her with Ting Lu who makes such an effective and obvious partner for Corv/Skarm. Pairing her with Clodsire is an option but that's 2 ice weaks already. Paring her with Glowking results in a massive Gholdengo/Darkrai/Dragapult weakness you have to cover somehow which is troublesome as well.
So yeah, imo it's a really good mon for balance teams, just hard to fit into defensive cores and limits choices for your offensive cores as well.
I’m not going to lie Tera blast+meteor beam is a pretty nasty set. Sad that ampharos is too slow that is stilly needs agility on freaking webs but pretty nasty move combo.
Qwilfish @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Flip Turn
- Spikes
- Thunder Wave / Taunt / Toxic
- Poison Jab / Barb Barrage / Gunk Shot
Here's an interesting and underexplored mon. Intimidate + slow pivot is always nice. Poison move for
and 
. Switches in easily against , , 
, , 
. You could pair it with 
for that landopex defensive synergy, double intimidate, and both hazards. Don't be like me and pair it with 
unless you want 2 physical walls that lose to gambit.