Announcement National Dex and Pokémon Champions Discussion Thread

bumboclaat

bumboclaat

Most problems can be solved with breakfast food
is a Community Leaderis a Top Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top Metagame Resource Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
National Dex Leader
You’d have to have your head in the sand to not notice the discussion and speculation about what Champions means for National Dex. On its face, this is a simple decision – National Dex either implements Champions or it doesn’t. However, as with most things in life, things get complicated pretty quickly once you progress to the how.

National Dex is a section, not just a tier. While ND OU may be our flagship tier and its interests receive the most consideration, it isn’t the only one. Given this is a decision that will impact National Dex as a whole, we reached out to our tier leaders recently for their opinions. That discussion is still ongoing, but the response so far to implementing Pokémon Champions has been mostly negative. Whilst this is ultimately a CL decision, we appreciate our TLs willingness to take the time to engage and provide input.

During that conversation, we mentioned that we’d planned to make a public thread so the community is provided an opportunity to weigh in as well. Well…this is that, but before continuing, this is a serious thread and treat it as such. This means no shitposting. Consider this the first and only warning as this thread will be strictly moderated. Unserious posts will be removed and likely result in an infraction. Think before you post.

Currently, if and how National Dex implements Champions is still being ironed out. There are a lot of factors to consider, but if we proceed we do not plan to do so before NDWC concludes. Furthermore, Champions changes will not impact ongoing tournaments if they modify SV National Dex. Few things are finalized at this stage, but one is worth mentioning: if the new Pokémon are added to National Dex formats, the Champions mechanics will accompany them. National Dex policy is already something of a mess and we are not going to exacerbate that by selectively choosing what we want. A significant portion of this discussion so far has focused on whether existing metagames should be preserved and if a new ‘ND Champions’ (name TBD) metagame should be created. Input on that, particularly from higher level players is appreciated.
 
Last edited:
I do think having a separate natdex tier for champions changes could be a healthy thing since there were a lot of changes in champions including the new mega evolutions and also the changes to some moves like First Impression, Dire Claw,Salt Cure,etc. that will change the format for better or worse. another reason for that is that people are used the the current natdex format OU especially and it's one of the most popular formats on showdown and to change it just massively changes the meta that the players have become accustomed to.
 
This definitely is a heated topic that I understand both sides of. While I do support Champions' implementation due to the fact that Champions seems to just be official national dex right now and the ability for new megas to be implemented into the tiers in case they never see the light of a new mainline game, I also do not support Champions implementation because of Champions being a side game and not an actual mainline game. Plenty of buffs and nerfs that are in Champions would completely flip NDOU upside-down since they martyred the 2 edged sword status conditions. I am slightly leaning towards supporting Champions Implementation, but I trust the tier leaders more than I trust myself, except when that dang Vibrava when he unbanned Zamazenta-Crowned.
 
I don't see the purpose of having a national dex section without all of the Pokemon (and, by extension, forms) available. I get not wanting to shake up the meta, but the entire point of nat dex was to give dexited mons (or mons that might never see a mainline appearance) a home. I also don't really think a separate meta with the Champions forms would solve the issue. The only way I could see a separate meta working is if the main ladder had the megas but not the mechanics changes but the fork had both. Obviously I'm not a high-level player (I'm in the 1200s lol) but I've followed the tier since its inception and feel very strongly about this.
 
Just out of curiosity as someone who doesn’t play NatDex much at all, would the potential implementation of Champs here affect the Champions OU format that is being worked on in that section of the forums/showdown? Or is this discussion just for adding Champions stuff into the overall NatDex roster?

Apologies for my confusion.
 
GT89 said:
Just out of curiosity as someone who doesn’t play NatDex much at all, would the potential implementation of Champs here affect the Champions OU format that is being worked on in that section of the forums/showdown? Or is this discussion just for adding Champions stuff into the overall NatDex roster?

Apologies for my confusion.
Click to expand...
The latter. This does not impact Champions OU at all. I'll make a post later giving my general thoughts
 
How i believe it should be is to wait until the next games come out. Right now the buff and nerf to certain moves seem more specific to the champion then the mainline games as such should be treated as another format for now
 
Last edited:
If Champions OU is a seperate tier, Champions National Dex should follow. I would not wait for anything and get it out as soon as possible, once all mechanics are figured out and whatnot. Having a tier where we can actually use some reason for mechanics would be great and relief some stress policy-wise, though I think most policy on this site is a waste of time.

When we do whatever we want to do with Champions, make sure that it's like Champions movepool + transfers from SS/SV/PLA/PLZA (from one of the games, not all of them combined) for new moves as well. We can probably still include the Gen 7+ logic with movepools as well but it would cause some things to not be legal, like a Mega Lopunny with Swords Dance would not be able to use Return or Toxic because it came from PLZA, where the former doesn't exist and the latter can't be taught to it. EDIT: If it was transferred from Gen 7, it can actually use SD + Return; but you get the logic. But I think it would make things even better and should be something kept on the same level of consideration as new Megas.

Please include new Megas as well and keep the unreleased ones unreleased until they come out. I won't comment on things more until a decision comes out, and if there is (hopefully not) no rectification of Champions with National Dex I probably just won't do anything on this site anymore then. This is a great opportunity to make the last year of SV strong, so please don't waste it.
 
Last edited:
Really mixed right now.
On one hand I really want to try the new megas and see what they can do, especially the Kalos starters (Chesnaught tuff asf). On the other the PP changes are baffling to say the least and the paralysis nerf could have big long term impact.
Currently leaning towards letting them but that can change fairly easily.
 
We will soon be 4 years into SV, and while both DLC’s and the Tera ban very much helped to counter act this, this tier is beginning to feel a bit stale. While not yet an issue, by the time Gen 10) releases in 2027(ish) this staleness will likely be more rampant. Due to being Nat Dex we are in a unique position where we could add the new Megas and Champions features, which imo is the right choice and something we should take advantage of. It would serve to reinvigorate the tier. The non Mega Champion’s implementations would be nothing major meta impact wise outside of randomly nerfing ferro, but ferro will be fine. And the thing that everyone cares about, the new megas, would shake up the ND Ou tier without tearing it down and creating an entirely new meta. We could create a separate ladder for a Champions National Dex Ou, but I would be worried about splitting the player base too much, and would prefer a tour to iron the kinks out instead.

The lower tiers like Uu and Ru, would undoubtedly have major tier shifts. While I feel this is fine for Uu given how the tier has been shaken up recently with numerous bans, I can not speak for Ru as I have followed it far less closely recently. Also imo literally none of this would affect Ubers in a major way. Monotype and Doubles idk what would happen with those. I’d imagine Doubles would change a shit ton, but Monotype is hard for me to predict besides Mega Chimeco going nutty on mono steel.

Now two issues I would like to raise. First is what is the policy outlined in this thread here. I firmly believe if we are to do this than rises must be allowed to help accommodate changes in lower tiers because both Mega and non Mega Pokémon’s viability will be drastically affected. Same for Ou but to a lesser degree. As well I believe if we are to implement this than it should be done at the beginning of a month, with tiering rises and drops being implemented at the end, to put less strain on the tiering system.

My second, not really issue but whatever, is that we should definitely only add the Mega’s available in Champions. While I imagine this is the intent, I would not be shocked if/when this is implemented I hear people whining about how they can’t use like Mega Staraptor or something.

All in all I say Champions mechanics should be implemented, and if they are we should allow rises and drops to both happen. As well as making sure the end of the month that this would be implemented in, is a month where tiering changes happen or just going outside of the normal tiering cycle to have rises and drops happen. Gonna tack this on here quickly cause I just thought of it, please no item clause anything but an item clause. I don’t want it an item clause in ND.
 
Last edited:
Pardon the Language but waiting for WC to end is Bullshit.

Champions is Not SV, if you made a tour that started in SV then end it in SV, but preventing the vast majority of players to enjoy New mons and mechanics because a few are playing a tournament they aren't even aware of is insane. Mega Meganium or example is not in SV. it should not be in SV National dex. It is however in Champions and there should be a Champions Natdex Ladder that is considered as the current Gen Natdex Ladder. We pretty much knew Champions was coming soon and it shouldn't have been impossible to Delay the WC if you wanted to play it in current gen no matter what. Champions Natdex Should be a ladder ASAP, where it is possible to Tera and Mega Evolve and use Z moves. All new ladders are Chaotic, that is never something we should be delaying a ladder implementation for either.
 
Making a new natdex champs format is for sure wrong. Natdex ladder is already cooked, and splitting the player base over changes that are more similar to a dlc than a new game would make nobody happy. Assuming adding the new stuff will only impact ladder and not ongoing tours, I don't think adding the new stuff would be that disruptive. Selfishly, I would like for the meta to be shaken up as I'm getting kinda bored. I also really want to use mega clef lol.

I think a lot of people (including myself previously) are overreacting to the changes to pp and status. Aside from probably gliscor, nothing is being meaningfully negatively impacted by these changes in such a way that it threatens the health of the tier. Why wait for another mainline game to make the same changes just to preserve a stale meta?

Also, lets be honest about natdex lower tiers. those ladders are hella dead, and the tournament scene is not that big either. Adding champs stuff will get people to play those, and we hopefully will avoid another 6 waters incident. I think if we have an opportunity to grow the non NDOU tiers we should take it.

We don't even know if the megas will be added to the next mainline game. Waiting for gen 10 just for the megas to not be in that game would be stupid af and a complete waste. If changes get made during gen 10 we can implement those, but delaying with no information is nonsensical. Lets just add the new stuff, if it ruins the tier, whoopty do.

Also, can someone link a list of the changes made in champions in this thread pls?
 
Last edited:
I have some mixed thoughts on this, and I think to get at why you have to start with the regular CG.

Essentially: Anything, including from any level of Smogon Leadership, personnel, admin, whatever, who actually thinks SV tiers are gonna be 'the thing' soon enough are coping. Champions is replacing the Generational format with a live-service model that is engineered to keep players satisfied with novelty and able to be balanced.

I believe that Smogon needs to adapt quickly, and I think National Dex has some things that give more nuances compared to current gen, where I genuinely believe it's simply Do or Die.

1. Simulator Development

As far as I understand, National Dex has been like regular generational formats developed in one big slew of adaptations and then just tiering updates. Champions wouldn't allow this, and I do think it needs to be noted the extra volunteer bandwidth that may be required for National Dex to follow Champions. If Champions changes some mechanics, which, they already have been (and in fact changed one [albeit it was a bug] within two days of release). I am simply worried that this may make it a non-starter, but I'm optimistic that that is wrong.

Ultimately, to be up to date would require more work on the backend, and likely policy in some changes that Champions hasn't gotten to updating yet, and I am not sure how much bandwidth is available.

2. Casual Tier

I don't think it's that controversial to say that National Dex has a very strong casual following compared to most if not all other tiers on this site, and that isn't necessarily an issue. There's a small Catch 22 where I believe that casual appeal 100% comes from the ability to use all of the fan-favorites, but I also wonder if casual players would also not mind as much waiting longer, especially as Champions will likely take a long time to adapt the dex, if Pokemon Go means anything.

Essentially: While the shiny new Megas would not be in NatDex for a while, Champions I think has many Megas that aren't even in Champions, either, at least for now; let alone the like eight-hundred Pokemon left.

3. When To Start?

I think that considering it's taken this long (literally 'this', the server just went down to add in Champions OU) to do the one that is Do or Die, with Point 1 I am pretty concerned at how near in the future this could even be done.

I believe that it'd be easier to wait until there is more availability and a lull in order to truly push for a 'Champions National Dex' of sorts, rather than immediately and likely have a lot of bugs or issues.

I also think that with both the VGC and Smogon formats going to be taking up a lot of attention, it's not much of a big deal. That Point 2 didn't come because National Dex dropped quickly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but IIRC SWSH National Dex dropped months post-launch. I can faintly remember those Dynamax Landorus-Therian Max Airstream -> Max Quake days now..

4. 'Gen 9 National Dex Patch vs. Champions National Dex'

The second. I think that it'll be easier long-term to have it branded as Champions with those updates and leave the room for a Gen 10, which is almost certainly going to be at best a sidegrade from Champions in terms of push for competitive play, with Champions intended as the new home for competitive Pokemon officially.

Basically:
-Gen 10 National Dex may want its own home?
-Gen 9 National Dex would be the predecessor to that
-Champions National Dex will likely get live-service-made updates a lot, which would possibly disrupt tournament play, honestly, and also probably fuck with a lot of the existing tiering. Keep it separate, or as "Gen 9.5" replacement with Gen 9 National Dex still available for tournament play.

Essentially, treat it like how SWSH HOME OU was handled in the transition to Isle of Armor, except not as a full replacement.

These are just my thoughts. Apologies for any rambling, but I really like NatDex and it's the only tier I've cared enough to get reqs for, so I have Thoughts.

In Summary:

I both think Champions is the future yet also don't think Gen 9 NationalDex should be paved over, nor do I think a quick transition is both possible and able to be polished. I believe that NatDex is uniquely positioned to be able to tank a hit for some time, and any hit it may take was likely always to happen due to two major formats dropping.
 
I would LOVE to see champions implemented some way somehow. I would assume it would count as a part of gen 9, similar to how DLC Pokemon have been treated for SV. The new megas, changes to mechanics like Salt Cure, Freeze, Sleep, and especially paralysis are very welcome additions. Beyond that, staying current with what is happening in Gen 9 is something I view as very important and leaving champions out of that or sidelining it is disingenuous to the state of Pokemon as it is right now.
 
Bey is Back said:
Making a new natdex champs format is for sure wrong. Natdex ladder is already cooked, and splitting the player base over changes that are more similar to a dlc than a new game would make nobody happy. Assuming adding the new stuff will only impact ladder and not ongoing tours, I don't think adding the new stuff would be that disruptive. Selfishly, I would like for the meta to be shaken up as I'm getting kinda bored. I also really want to use mega clef lol.

I think a lot of people (including myself previously) are overreacting to the changes to pp and status. Aside from probably gliscor, nothing is being meaningfully negatively impacted by these changes in such a way that it threatens the health of the tier. Why wait for another mainline game to make the same changes just to preserve a stale meta?

Also, lets be honest about natdex lower tiers. those ladders are hella dead, and the tournament scene is not that big either. Adding champs stuff will get people to play those, and we hopefully will avoid another 6 waters incident. I think if we have an opportunity to grow the non NDOU tiers we should take it.

We don't even know if the megas will be added to the next mainline game. Waiting for gen 10 just for the megas to not be in that game would be stupid af and a complete waste. If changes get made during gen 10 we can implement those, but delaying with no information is nonsensical. Lets just add the new stuff, if it ruins the tier, whoopty do.
Click to expand...
Champions is regularly ish gonna see new mons so it's not really just a DLC-like addition, but truly a new tier. Champions Natdex is probably gonna see some insanely active tiering and it will by this time of next year be absolutely NOTHING like SV Natdex and making it part of SV natdex is a HUGE mistake imo
 
I don't usually participate much in these kinds of forums, but I think this discussion is worthwhile.

The National Dex was created with the intention that absolutely all Pokémon and mechanics (excluding banned ones) could coexist in the same environment. However, the potential implementation of Champions could completely change the current metagame, as well as the way it has been played for the past year following the Teracrystallization ban. This is due both to the introduction of new Mega Evolutions and to changes in move and status mechanics. Adjusting to this entire new environment will not be an easy task, and while that happens, the next generation is likely to arrive, along with a hypothetical Gen 10 National Dex. This could cause the most competitive players to migrate to that new metagame, leaving behind the Gen 9 metagame, which would gradually lose activity while its new metagame hasn't even fully established itself. From my perspective, the most appropriate approach would be to treat Pokémon Champions as a separate tier and make it the new Gen 10 National Dex when those games are released. This option would allow us to preserve the current metagame without altering it.

However, if we follow the original National Dex logic, these changes should be implemented as soon as possible in the current tier. Therein lies the dilemma: implementing the changes now makes sense conceptually, but it could harm a metagame that is already established just before a new generation.

Therefore, I consider it viable to separate both tiers, as I mentioned before, but maintain the Gen 9 National Dex as the official OU tier at least until the arrival of the next generation. That is, create an exclusive ladder for Nat Dex Champions, without including it in the already planned official tournaments. In this way, those who want to experiment with the new mechanics can do so without affecting the stability of the current tier or its competitive relevance.


That's all for my report!
 
bumboclaat said:
That discussion is still ongoing, but the response so far to implementing Pokémon Champions has been mostly negative
Click to expand...
As one of the main voices of anti-champions agenda my concern lies mainly with the fate of the SV mechanics. To accept a proposal such as 1yr's, it would essentially entail replacing most of if not all of the SV mechanics with Champions ones. Yes moves are changed and added, but aspects such as built in item clause, the EV rework, IVs being removed, and Levels forcibly being maxed out are all pretty big changes to NatDex.

There's also a lot more "subtle" changes to the mechanics at also help change the way the game is played:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-battle-mechanics-research.3780372/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-battle-mechanics-research.3780372/post-10946952
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-battle-mechanics-research.3780372/post-10946519
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-battle-mechanics-research.3780372/post-10946286
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-battle-mechanics-research.3780372/post-10944490

I do not think Champions is really an upgraded version of SV mechanics. With all this in mind, it's fundamentally a different game. So there's no real reason to merge the two in one format. Most of the reasons provided by others are superficial such as the state of ladder or general popularity. The mechanics SV NatDex should be preserved over these things I feel.

That isn't to say that I'm against NatDex Champions as a concept however. Having Champions as its own format and running it congruent to SV NatDex alleviates most of the issues. It's also extremely clean since SV isn't touched at all, thus we don't have to answer a bunch of random policy questions in the backend (two primarily being how we deal with gen 10 onwards and how legalities need to be addressed). If the concern of having both is purely based of the quality of the ladder and playerbase then I truely belive we are just taking the piss here since ND ladder is already pretty dogwater reportedly and to be honest I truely don't care about the quality of ladders enough as a ND Lower Tiers mainer, especially with rises already being frozen for NatDex. Tours should still remain of a similar quality since you would ideally just keep SV to be the flagship format (ala the Circuit is played near entirely in SV and SV still occupies a plurality of slots in team tours).

Free Champions ND, leave SV ND alone. The two formats can co-exist peacefully. #spreadpeace #coexist #iamthechampion
 
ANoher Reason we should separate the tiers is the different whole system. that's right, CHampions ND should have lv 50, Item clause and everything, but with no restriction on available Items. SV ND is Not compatible with Champions and y'all should end your tours and let the #people play with Champions Moves and EV systems. Champions ND says goodbye to #FEAR and Level 99 SpeedDecreeping, so it will not be as diverse as SV ND and I am of the opinion that we should still have a separate WW Natdex when the time comes but that's not the discussion here. Champions is FAR from a DLC, and it is moral suicide to have it override SV ND. Just create Champions ND ASAP
 
Hi. The extent of my participation is hosting draft leagues. My central argument is to implement the new megas and their abilities (only the official ones with confirmed abilities). The abilities and move changes can occur at a later time. Yes, this allows for full power unseen fist Mega Golurk and an underpowered Mega Excadril which is in some ways unfair, but I think this is the best compromise. Alternatively, implement all new mons, update abilities and move power changes as the second most desired position. I think the tier should include one of these two sets of changes and leave the tournaments to make their bans as they see fit. My position is not including the new mons will miss a huge opportunity that is uniquely present right now for Smogon, NatDex, and Draft Leagues.

The strongest reason to implement new mons (and potentially mechanics) is that right now the interest in any level of competitive Pokémon is higher now than it has or will be in some time. People will try out Champions, see that they can't play with their favorite Pokémon, but really love one of the new megas. They know a friend who plays showdown, they look it up and do some research. Okay, champions is what I play on my switch, they think, they turn to natdex. It has all their favorites except, wait, hang on, where's Mega Dragonite?? What about Mega Froslass? This is a player that is ready to be converted to a long time player and fan. What teenager or college student may fall in passion to learn and be our next champion? Who would be turned away from not having that initial entry point.

I think that showdown and tournaments and leagues are going to see a boon in engagement and NatDex can be the premier place where we have it all. No other format is even trying to offer that. I understand that this would shake up the meta in huge ways. That's what Pokémon does though, every generation or major change. Yes, ZA is changing the book, but I think it's unlikely to ever be going back to more consistent only generational changes.

I understand better to be more reserved on the nerfs of things and that is compelling in some ways, if the work required is too much for the folks who run natdex, that's a satisfactory response in my book. Y'all are doing all of this out of love for our favorite game. I would hold no gripe and I expect participants to understand that position.

There is no other format that would allow for this, if tournament organizers feel that shifts everything too much I understand and think they can do tournament level bans. I believe this relatively satisfies all conditions, especially if it's just new megas+abilities. thank you for your consideration.
 
As someone else stated, I don't see a point in having national dex if we are pick and choose which pokémon count. The reason side games aren't included isn't because there is some mystical difference between a mainline game and a side game. If there was, we would have included the legends ZA content immediately regardless of lack of information, just having those megas have non functional abilities or something like that, because ZA is a mainline game, as per the pokémon company themselves.

The reason why the two legends games were not implemented into national dex is due to the number of features they are missing, like abilities, items for legends Arceus, and the overall core gameplay loop of the combat being different.

Champions has all of those. It has missing items, but by national Dex definitions, so has every mainline game starting with generation 8, which is likely going to continue to be the case. It has an identical gameplay loop to normal competitive pokémon, but with pokémon, moves, and items all missing. But all of the information needed for it to be implemented is present.

Beyond that, I think that if we avoid implementing it due to the fact that things will almost certainly be buffed and nerfed through the lifetime of the game, then in my opinion we should simply revert the Ash Greninja change because that means we are picking and choosing which changes we implement, rather than implementing them as faithfully as possible within an unofficial format.

I think there is also a strong possibility that future mainline games do away with gang balance as a major concern, simply rebalancing things when they are implemented into champions. That possibility makes me feel that champions should be what we emulate, rather than mainline games for which we have no promise that there will be any effort to keep them balanced, and not even a promise that they will retain the turn-based gameplay that we are used to.

I would also be against creating a separate champions national dex tier, unless it is treated as similar to the generation 8 national dex tier, ie as a past metagame where tearing action can still be taken, but it is not treated either on the showdown format list or in multi-format tournaments as current. For one, I think it just kicks a lot of issues down the road, in a way where the decision could become calcified in a way that makes it difficult to change. There are definitely other decisions that have been made a long time ago that have calcified negatively for Smogon as a whole, and I think we should be aware of the fact that now is by far the easiest time to change how things are implemented to maintain the tier. The bigger issue though, is that that would split the player base. As someone who also plays a large amount of UU, you run into the opposite issue as you do on national dex, where there are simply too few players in some lower tiers to maintain a healthy ladder. Pokeaim has stated that the main reason he doesn't do many videos in the lower tiers this generation is that finding games takes long enough to become disruptive and frustrating. I think that frustration is shared by a lot of players in less played tiers. And for UU at least, much more of the top of the ladder is cut out then the bottom. You still see the ladder hyper fixate on weird things that are terrible (galarian wheezing was in D tier with a fan on discussion for raising for about a full year before it finally left UU, which only happened due to a rising to OU), but they're also just isn't a super competitive top ladder, which hurts the tier as a whole due to reducing the ability to develop the tier to tournaments, which happen relatively rarely compared to how easy it is to queue up on ladder, and the small number of high level players who actually play on ladder. That has led to things taking weirdly long to be accepted as good, simply because nobody was bothering to use them in tournaments (ursaluna and hoopa-unbound, for example, we're both seen as mediocre by a lot of top level players due to their lack of tournament results. But a lot of people who primarily played on ladder already had suspicions of them being very strong by the time they suddenly blew up into the tournament scene, right after each other, both needing bans).

I'm sorry to go so deep into tierings and ladder issues of an unrelated tier, but I think they are illustrative of the issues of splitting a player base too many times. I would prefer a champions national dex format over nothing, but I think it would have a serious risk of negatively impacting the tournament scene through less metagame development and through a less playable ladder for testing and practicing, and have a real risk of becoming depreciated very suddenly at the start of the new generation, either through the new game being more similar to legends ZA than to Scarlet and violet, or through the new game being wildly imbalanced due to them deciding they will just balance everything in champions instead. If I had played more national dex other tiers, I could probably speak to more immediately relevant context then Scarlet and Violet UU, but my main knowledge of those is through secondhand complaints of their ladders being similarly difficult to play on.

At the core of the issue though, I think is that the entire reason for the creation of national dex at the start of generation 8 was to allow people to continue to play with the pokémon and mechanics they enjoyed, not subject to gamefreak deciding to cut things randomly. I think overall it has succeeded at creating a format that allows new and old pokémon and mechanics to function with each other. I think, if we decide to exclude new pokémon that we don't know will ever be in a mainline game that is playable in a showdown-style competitive format rather than a real-time one, then we are losing sight of the entire point of the tier.

And, considering that gen 8 national dex is still fully playable, and is played including in tournaments, I think it would be better to consider this a closing point for Scarlet and Violet national dex as current gen, and instead treating it as a past generation to be preserved and enjoyed, but still considered as the past generation for the sake of ladder and tournaments. I think this differs from simply splitting them into two current generation tiers, because it means that one, tournaments would default to including champions NDOU as current rather than as a side meta, and two, and honestly more importantly, it would clearly label champions as the primary national dex tier on ladder, telling people where to go if they want everything rather than a preserved, but still dynamic, past metagame, and most importantly I think doing it that way would maximize the amount of people who go to the champions ladder if they are looking for the standard format, which prevents it from becoming a dead ladder.

I've made a lot of points so I'll just summarize for anyone who scrolled past and say that I think there are a lot of reasons why including the champions pokémon and mechanics is the right decision and that doing so would be remaining in line with the past decisions that have been made. I think it's okay to split off Scarlet and Violet national dex as a past metagame, similar to how generation 8 national dex is treated, or how generation 1 through 7 standard OU are treated, but I think that splitting the format into two supposedly current formats is both inaccurate and would be detrimental to the health and sustainability of the community.
 
Last edited:
Darkness 789 said:
I don't usually participate much in these kinds of forums, but I think this discussion is worthwhile.

The National Dex was created with the intention that absolutely all Pokémon and mechanics (excluding banned ones) could coexist in the same environment. However, the potential implementation of Champions could completely change the current metagame, as well as the way it has been played for the past year following the Teracrystallization ban. This is due both to the introduction of new Mega Evolutions and to changes in move and status mechanics. Adjusting to this entire new environment will not be an easy task, and while that happens, the next generation is likely to arrive, along with a hypothetical Gen 10 National Dex. This could cause the most competitive players to migrate to that new metagame, leaving behind the Gen 9 metagame, which would gradually lose activity while its new metagame hasn't even fully established itself. From my perspective, the most appropriate approach would be to treat Pokémon Champions as a separate tier and make it the new Gen 10 National Dex when those games are released. This option would allow us to preserve the current metagame without altering it.

However, if we follow the original National Dex logic, these changes should be implemented as soon as possible in the current tier. Therein lies the dilemma: implementing the changes now makes sense conceptually, but it could harm a metagame that is already established just before a new generation.

Therefore, I consider it viable to separate both tiers, as I mentioned before, but maintain the Gen 9 National Dex as the official OU tier at least until the arrival of the next generation. That is, create an exclusive ladder for Nat Dex Champions, without including it in the already planned official tournaments. In this way, those who want to experiment with the new mechanics can do so without affecting the stability of the current tier or its competitive relevance.


That's all for my report!
Click to expand...
I agree with most of this, but my positions on which should be the official primary one are reversed. I think that preserving SV national dex is a good thing, for the same reason why I like that smoke on preserves all past generations unlike the official formats, where once something is done it can never be played again.

The big reason I differ is that I play ladder, and I think people fail to realize that ladder genuinely is important for a metagames development. Low and mid ladder aren't, because a good enough player can quite frankly make sunkern work just because they can win a 5V6. But top ladder is an important place where people can experiment with less commonly used options, and where things that are good but not yet recognized can flourish. That trickles down to the tournament scene, where those ideas can actually be put to the test to see whether or not they are true. As someone who sent the majority of this generation as a UU main, the ladder is honestly even less playable than national dex, because in addition to very few top level players caring about it, there's also just not enough mid or high level players to fill out a ladder. I will frequently be in the 1500s (Well into the top 500), set waiting 10 minutes to find a match, and then be matched with someone in the 1200s. It is quite simply not an enjoyable experience. That negatively impacts metagame development, but also means that the tournament scene is going to lose players through attrition because that entry point, where most people first start playing a tier, isn't playable.

I know that the main people making this point are people who are not really engaging with the arguments of their opposition, but I do think it is worth keeping in mind the fact that the vast, vast majority of players are ladder players who never enter a tournament, let alone anything beyond the mini tournaments posted in the showdown chat. Those people shouldn't be the ones to decide what gets banned or what stays, because those decisions have a much more profound impact on tournament players than on ladder, and broken things require a certain amount of familiarity and skill to recognize. But, that doesn't mean we can or should ignore those players. They are where almost every tournament player gets their start, and if we want to have a well-rounded community rather than just some people who play tournaments in a format nobody else knows about, the latter population needs to stay at least somewhat healthy.

I am of the belief that, if we are going to completely disregard the desire of the ladder based player base, then we should seriously consider abandoning usage-based tiering, since that ultimately means that ladder is what decides what is allowed in tournaments. And anyone who has played UU this generation, or from what I've heard, national dex UU last generation, can confirm that having a ladder made up of a very small number of low skill players leads to usage-based tiering becoming extremely unreliable as a measure of the power of pokémon. If we aren't making decisions with the intent to keep ladder as functional as possible, then we should just make our decisions the same way they were made before usage stats were possible, and are still made in generations 1-3. I think that method is extremely flawed, and beyond that sounds incredibly tedious for a format in which new pokémon are being added and where tiering decisions will have to be made for over a thousand pokémon in a format that has been played for a matter of weeks, but that's why I am making this point as a rhetorical device rather than a legitimate suggestion.

My bigger concern though is that the whole point of national dex is that every pokémon is here. We have excluded things from Legends games, but that's not because they are side games because, according to the pokémon company and game freak, they aren't. We excluded them simply because they lack key mechanics that are needed to tell us how those pokémon would function in a mainline game. I think it's reasonable to want to preserve Scarlet and violet national dex, but doing so should be seen as preserving it, because that's what it is. You don't make decisions to preserve a current generation tier. That's a commonly cited reason for why jirachi either shouldn't be banned or should receive a complex ban rather than a complete one in generation 4 OU, because that's a past generation, and people have a greater attachment to preserving it because of that. I think that it's pretty silly to treat the current competitive pokémon game as an other metagame, and a past metagame as current.
 
So first disclaimer out of the way, I'm not the best player (peaked 1600s for a while, never again lmao), but I'm been following and playing natdex for couple years so I'm pretty passionate about the topic, and I'd like to throw my metaphorical hat into the ring.

1. New Pokemon
I don't think there's much of an argument here for not letting them into the current natdex metagame, frankly. There's not much difference in the appearance of the new Champions megas and for example, the addition of Raging Bolt or Walking Wake in the DLCs. And if they're broken, well, we just deal with the same way that we dealt with broken mons in the past - with suspect test and quickbans.

The only concern is that there might be a few megas that become common and viable and shake up the metagame but are still balanced at the end of the day (think Zamazenta or Wogerpon power-level). But again, that has happened before partially with Raging Bolt and Ogerpon-wellspring and that didn't necessitate the creation of a new "Natdex without Teal Mask" meta.

2. Champions Restrictions
NO. I've seen a few people suggesting implementing Champions restrictions (Item Clause) if we're going to add Champions Megas. I think there's a way of saying this politely, but impolitely: WHY ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH WOULD YOU INTENTIONALLY IMPLEMENT THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE GAMES ON A METAGAME BUILT TO GET RID OF THEM?

3. Balance Changes
I think however, that everything else (the balance changes, mostly), depends on how Game Freak handles Champions vs Winds/Waves. I think there are two (3 maybe?) distinct possibilies, and we should wait for WW to come out before making any major decisions.
  • Champions is merely an extension of the Mainline games: If this is so, then the balance changes would be implemented, no questions about it. Natdex, while being its own seperate "game" in a way, has always be a reflection of the mainline games, and if the balance changes seen now in champions are merely preceding their implementation in Wind/Waves, then we add them as soon as WW comes out.
  • Champions is a live-service, monthly balanced competitive game, while the Mainline games are mostly static: I think that if Game Freak really does want Champions to become a "professional" competitive game, then they certainly would start making periodic buffs/nerfs a la Apex Legends or Rainbow Six Siege. Meanwhile, because the mainline games are much more casual focused, these balance changes might not be reflected there. Then, we would have to make a decision as to which game to follow - the ever-shifting VGC-balanced champions, or the static casual-"balanced" Wind/Waves. But that decision should be made after both come out, not now. Personally, though, I feel like staying with the mainline games and balancing the Smogon way - with Bans and Clauses- would be better than trying to navigate a changing meta which is not even balanced for singles.
 
My own take on the matter is that I think National Dex should implement Champions changes for multiple reasons:
  • Champions is gonna be the future of competitive Pokémon. Sure, it won't have Singles 6v6. But TPC already plans on using that as a base for competition, for VGC official tours, etc. So, the competitive additions, and all of that stuff is gonna be there. The balancing will be done in Champions. Hell, we don't even know if Gen 10 will have a classic PvP gameplay, or something experimental like PLA/PLZA before.
  • National Dex is here to bring every single Pokémon with all of their available moves. Not including Champions megas would imo be a really bad idea, as Champions is the future of competitive as I mentionned. Moreover, we don't even know if the megas are gonna be in Gen 10, for all we know they could be absent still.
  • We're in SV for one more year. It may sound stupid, but a current gen metagame can only get so many players interested, at least that's my personal opinion, but I'd rather see some more changes.
Now, to touch on some points:
  • I don't think we should have an item clause and be limited to level 50, as it would touch on NatDex' identity. We should also have every single item available.
  • I understand the sentiment of many anti-Champions arguments, being the mechanical changes, the fact that it's a huge change, it's gonna be tier shifts, etc. This is why I think we should get a SV NatDex and a Champions NatDex, the same way we kept a SS NatDex. Both can coexist, which also solves the WC problem.
  • I don't think we should get PLA/PLZA move additions to NatDex as I feel they were more experimental compared to mainline, and a lot of them didn't stick (like Recover Gardevoir from PLA, or Nasty Plot Greninja/Garchomp from ZA), but I wouldn't mind seeing them, I'm neutral on this but more on the "don't" side.
Here are my 2 cents anyway, I genuinely like National Dex, and I would like to try it with new megas.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top