Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

Disregarding any actual pokemon, i think everyone in this thread and outside unanimously agrees to a ban for the following, because they're simply neither competitive nor healthy:

Evasion Moves (Minimize, Double Team, etc)
Evasion Items (Bright Powder)
Evasion Abilities (Sand Veil)
Moody

So
Pls ban sob
 
Éric said:
why the actual fuck is moody legal like legit is this an oversight or is this like a conscious decision for whatever wild reason https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2580571140-vqxicbaykbn9lbvjg9n17gd1b3q9cu3pw
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Sami said:
:starmie-mega:
literally satan (Starmie-Mega) @ Starminite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 32 Atk / 2 SpD / 32 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Minimize
- Bulk Up
- Waterfall
- Zen Headbutt
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2580571784-k6av54yo24uh5laply576o8e43ku5nkpw

i genuinely do not understand why we bothered quickbanning last respects and baton pass...
but then completely ignoring evasion
why
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Bka Onon said:
Disregarding any actual pokemon, i think everyone in this thread and outside unanimously agrees to a ban for the following, because they're simply neither competitive nor healthy:

Evasion Moves (Minimize, Double Team, etc)
Evasion Items (Bright Powder)
Evasion Abilities (Sand Veil)
Moody

So
Pls ban sob
Click to expand...
Unbanning Evasion and Moody and all this other crap to simulate how Champions is an unfinished mess. It’s an artistic satire of Capitalism and Enshitification.
 
Bka Onon said:
Disregarding any actual pokemon, i think everyone in this thread and outside unanimously agrees to a ban for the following, because they're simply neither competitive nor healthy:

Evasion Moves (Minimize, Double Team, etc)
Evasion Items (Bright Powder)
Evasion Abilities (Sand Veil)
Moody

So
Pls ban sob
Click to expand...
Sami said:
I genuinely do not understand why we bothered quickbanning last respects and baton pass...
but then completely ignoring evasion
why
Click to expand...
Replying to both of you, Evasion clause not being in Champions OU was an Oversight by the Showdown Devs because the rule is listed in Champions OU Rules Thread:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-forum-rules-announcements-council.3780362/post-10943557

Now, moody idk why it didn't got banned.
 
Éric said:
why the actual fuck is moody legal like legit is this an oversight or is this like a conscious decision for whatever wild reason https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2580571140-vqxicbaykbn9lbvjg9n17gd1b3q9cu3pw
Click to expand...
me and my fellow randbats grinders
IMG_5175.jpeg


scovillain getting moody is so fucking stupid it's the best one at using it too
 
I think it’s fine that the first few hours of the new meta includes everything. Sure it’s a headache, but it’s the format in its raw form. Now we get overwhelming consensus on what needs to be addressed and go from there. I prefer this approach over a ‘what-if we had tried it’ later down the road in regards to these items and mons and moves.

I do think Sleep with the new mechanics in Champs is fine, not allowing for overwhelming advantage with the nerf. Fully RNG evasion strats really stink tho, taking results completely out of your hands.
 
:sv/starmie-mega:
Starmie-Mega @ Starminite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 50
EVs: 32 Atk / 2 SpA / 32 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunder
- Liquidation
- Zen Headbutt
- Flip Turn
While everyone is having fun with Evasion, I made a Starmie set for Rain teams. Rain cranks Starmie’s powerlevel to absurd level. Liquidation is capable of 2HKOing Mega Aggron in Rain even without Adamant.
252 Atk Huge Power Starmie-Mega Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aggron-Mega in Rain: 88-105 (49.7 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Zen Headbutt then lets you hit most Water resists, most of which die instantly as they are weak to Psychic or too frail to take on either.
Then you have key coverage in Thunder. The special Electric coverage lets you hit Slowbro and opposing Mega Starmie.
And since its Thunder in Rain, you’re bypassing accuracy checks, so you can hit minimize spammers too.
 
I’m sure there’s more than enough complaints in this thread about what was allowed, so I will try to provide something different, but you are really not making a good argument for 6v6 by releasing this in an unbalanced state for everybody’s first impression.

It makes the argument that Pokemon is not intended for 6v6 singles very simple. Big misstep in my opinion.
 
Bugboy said:
I’m sure there’s more than enough complaints in this thread about what was allowed, so I will try to provide something different, but you are really not making a good argument for 6v6 by releasing this in an unbalanced state for everybody’s first impression.

It makes the argument that Pokemon is not intended for 6v6 singles very simple. Big misstep in my opinion.
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This is an overreaction. Every early Smogon metagame has been like this. XY had all of these megas, so did SM for the most part, and SS had Max Airstream Gyarados. No metagame is released in a balanced state, balance is achieved through testing and deliberation, otherwise we'll get 3+ years of people asking to unban this and that because we didn't test it. There's no argument needed for 6v6, it simply is and that's that, and whoever is not interested can play BSS which is already implemented.
 
KNBC said:
This is an overreaction. Every early Smogon metagame has been like this. XY had all of these megas, so did SM for the most part, and SS had Max Airstream Gyarados. No metagame is released in a balanced state, balance is achieved through testing and deliberation, otherwise we'll get 3+ years of people asking to unban this and that because we didn't test it. There's no argument needed for 6v6, it simply is and that's that, and whoever is not interested can play BSS which is already implemented.
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Maybe the case for yall, but as a more casual smogon player who was optimistic about OU with the restriction, I’m out after 3 games thinking “Pokemon is not designed for 6v6 anymore, this is not remotely fun, back to playing champions”.
 
Éric said:
why the actual fuck is moody legal like legit is this an oversight or is this like a conscious decision for whatever wild reason https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2580571140-vqxicbaykbn9lbvjg9n17gd1b3q9cu3pw
Click to expand...
HAVE SOME JOY AND WHIMSY!

That being said,

dhelmise

Announcement Thread 'Champions OU Tiering Updates'

Shed Tail, Moody, and evasion moves have been banned.

This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone, all three have been terrorizing the ladder even before this meta was actually playable, so I'm keeping this post very brief.

We will be looking into some of other popular talking points (Mega Gengar, Mega Blastoise) later.

Also, wanted to note that we intentionally started this meta with minimal tiering because there was no in-game equivalent to use majority of these playstyles in, so we wanted people to play with them for a bit. Thanks for your patience.
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KNBC said:
This is an overreaction. Every early Smogon metagame has been like this. XY had all of these megas, so did SM for the most part, and SS had Max Airstream Gyarados. No metagame is released in a balanced state, balance is achieved through testing and deliberation, otherwise we'll get 3+ years of people asking to unban this and that because we didn't test it. There's no argument needed for 6v6, it simply is and that's that, and whoever is not interested can play BSS which is already implemented.
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All those Metas had Evasion Clause and Moody Clause. I’m also pretty sure Mega Gengar was banned before the gen started.
 
Mega Gengar is pretty fun. IDK if its healthy perse, but I do like its ability to surgically remove threats + Spread status, though an issue I have been running into is that a lot of shit will just run lum berry in this metagame because of no item clause. I like Protect on it - helps mega evolve more safely & execuates chip from Toxic / Wisp against some of the meta's various threats.

I'd be interested if anyone winds up building a good stall / semi-stall / bulky team with it because I believe that that's the area it will likely be most broken. I think its pairing with Umbreon or hazard setters is worth noting because it is effective at crippling Corv / Mega Meganium.
 
Can we have a discussion about lifting Item Clause, if we are ignoring the 4v4 restriction why do we bother to keep the clause that becomes infinitely more unmanageable to build around in 6v6?
 
New player here who's mainly keeping an eye on COU in anticipation of 6v6 being added to Champions. Sorry if this post is out of line, I just felt compelled to mention this perspective. I've always been interested in Smogon but Showdown never worked for me due to not having the same presentation as the games. (Not a knock against it, of course.) Now that Champions is out, I'm really excited to try 6v6 out once its added.

Seeing people talk about trying old Sleep Clause due to sleep mechanics change. If that happened, would there be a chance of it being reconsidered when 6v6 gets added to champions? I'd understand it in the current environment, of course. 6v6 isn't even in the game so why worry about the meta being playable on cart when its fundamentally not already? I'm just worried that something like that would get locked in as a feature and make playing the meta on cart much more cumbersome.
 
Since we have the mentality to allow things to exist temporarily (ie Mega Gengar, even Shed Tail and Moody for a little bit), I think we should make Sleep legal. Then if it is still a problem we can look into banning it again / introducing Sleep Clause (especially since 6v6 is already a mod because people fundamentally like it, this isn't as farfetched as in SVOU).

Would be nice to try out sleep in a 6v6 format instead of 3v3 in game only. We also have limited sleep users, so it's the perfect time.
 
I think when a mechanic like sleep gets nerfed and we are starting a brand new format/meta from scratch, there’s no reason it can’t be added in to try out and get community feedback on, if even for just a day or two. When almost everything is available at the start of the generation before the ban hammer comes down on problems, it wouldn’t hurt this format any more or less than everything else available at the moment. Would be easier to try it now while everything is allowed than convincing everyone to try it once a meta is established and a bunch of bans happen.
 
At this point we are eight generations removed from the single precedent used to justify Sleep Clause Mod, and zero generations removed from 6v6 battling. Sleep Clause Mod is far more arbitrary of a change than the mod that Champions OU essentially would not be possible without. At the very least, we should see how the new sleep plays when unrestricted.

Modding out Item Clause falls somewhere between these two extremes. I am still opposed to it - Item Clause sucks for gameplay right now, but it's good to see how it affects a 6v6 tier, the core identity of OU is not lessened, and I think it could become very fun once more items are added. P.S. ban Bright Powder
 
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