Announcement National Dex and Pokémon Champions Discussion Thread

OFFICIAL SHEISTLORD STATEMENT ON THE FUTURE AND IDENTITY OF THE GREATEST TIER IN POKEMON

As someone heavily involved in the natdex community who has been maining this tier since the very start from the zarel twitter post to right now many years later, Ive been involved in both the casual side through the room and ladder along with the competitive side managing and playing in countless team tours, circuit and voting in every suspect we do along with actively developing the metagame and creating new sets (who likes ghost z pech and av mola? no thank yous required). I have some strong opinions on this. The identity of natdex has been somewhat vague and weirdly defined for a long time but basically it boils down to trading sun and moon (the last real national dex game) mons and moves forward into all the dexit games.​

Its not possible to discuss national dex without talking about the reason it was created in the first place; dexit. Its no coincidence that dexit coincided with the first game to have DLC monetization, the pokemon shareholders and corporate overlords decided that they would take things that in any previous game would have been base game content and lock them behind a DLC pay wall to scam kids out of more money, any excuse or alleged reason for dexit is a lie, it was never about competitive balance which is clearly obvious by the fact they have added some of the most broken and overtuned mons to ever exist at the same time as dexit happened. National dex was a response to this, a way to keep the true spirit of tpokemon alive, as they say "you gotta catch them all" and that means all of them, not just the ones that get randomly chosen by this fraud of a company, the entire point of smogon is that we dont like the way the official metas are balanced so we have created out own that we balance ourselves and natdex is the purest example of that. The purpose of natdex is and always has been to provide a place where people can play with any combination of pokemon that they want and this is how it should be going forward so im going to propose what I think is best for the tier:

- All new mons and items (mega stones) from champions should be added, there should never be an official pokemon unavailable in natdex

- The tier should not be split into two ladders, this is a huge mistake and will severely scuf the implementation of this, all changes should be made to the official natdex tiers.

- Move changes such as pp nerfs or the lowering of hax (iron head flinch nerf to 20%, moonblast spa drop to 10%) should all be added, this follows how we have always tiered national dex such as changing battle bond gren to the new version when ash gren got retconned in SV

- All previous moves and items should be kept, this includes hidden power on any mon that can naturally learn it (gen 7 and earlier) along with things like return that were phased out

- New mechanics should be added and updated, this includes things like mega turn priority and changes to fake out (not sure if this is a bug but there is some weirdness there) along with the freeze, paralysis and rest nerf and any other changes to how the game mechanics play out especially since a lot of these are reducing hax like no perma freeze

- We keep all current smogon clauses such as evasion, moody, etc and keep 6v6 singles, level 100 and no item clause as our base for the tier.

These changes should be implemented immediately following the conclusion of world cup, I believe all will be incredibly positive for our community which is by far one of the largest on smogon and we may even end up overtaking current gen OU in player count with this since that tier is very stale, as active community members and people who genuinely care for our tier and want to see it grow this is the right move to make since its overwhelmingly what the community wants and would massively grow our tier in popularity.

TL:DR we are the future, natdex should always include all mons and forms with the latest mechanics, and adding this will be massively beneficial to the tier as well as overwhelmingly popular amongst the casual and competitive playerbase.
 
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Cleaving the playerbase into two separate ladders in what is already a niche format is self sabotage. OP alludes to how adopting Champions will affect lower tiers, imagine how dead NatDex Champions UU will be lmao.

The main tenet of NatDex and the reason for its inception is the ability to use every mon in one format. Now that we have abilities for some megas and not fanfic Dhelmise slop, add said megas to the tier. Just add the new megas and chill on the other shit. If you won't add the megas without mechanic changes, add the mechanic changes too. An extra 4 EVs, less cheesy Moonblast, and stronger Lokix isn't exactly going to uproot the fabric of Natdex and jazz up the playerbase, but 15 brand new megas that you don't have to buy a battle pass for sure will. Just don't add the Level 50 Cap or Item Clause legit nobody asking for that idk why it has been insinuated ITT. Don't reinvent the wheel. I will say if Nat Dex does nothing at all Champions OU and SV OU post likely Tera Blast ban are gonna snatch it's chain fully (playerbase)

TLDR Oculars is right
 
Splitting Champions and SV is not "self sabotage", it it going from one current gen to another. "SV Champions UU" will not have a split playerbase from SV NDUU, as it should replace the ladder. SV is no longer the current Competitive battle game, CHampions is. We can keep SV ND ladder, but SV ND UU should be replaced by Champions ND UU. It's like saying everything from SV should just be added to SS ND OU to "not split the playerbase". You can end the WC in SV ND, but the Ladder of Champions ND should be added ASAP, and the ressources such as the SV VR or Role compendium treated as a past Gen ressouces just like SS ND's are right now. Sure Champions is not a whole lot of new things right now, but as more megas get added into the game and new Items appear and New abilities, are we oing to just add it all to "SV" ND?


TL;DR Champions might not be much more than "just a DLC" level of change right now but going forward it's going to be MUCH more than a "just a DLC" level of change so we need a whole new Tier.
 
Okay, I want to explain why simply merging National Dex into Champions can (and probably will) become a bureaucratic and logistical nightmare.

As far as we know, Scarlet and Violet are still the latest mainline games. Champions is not a sequel to SV, it exists as a parallel world. Based on our current understanding, when Gen 10 comes out, Champions will still exist in its own separate universe.

This raises the question: what will you do when Gen 10 releases? We have no reason to believe that the changes introduced in Champions will carry over. Will you shift to Gen 10, or will you stay in Champions? Like all the different move modifications and the changes to status conditions, we don't know if they are going to stay. If Gen 10 returns to PP values in multiples of 5, will you switch back to that while Champions continues releasing new formats using multiples of 4?

The only thing I could advocate for is creating a separate ladder. However, I will always be against implementing Champions' mechanics in National Dex as long as we don't have confirmation that Gen 10 and Champions mechanics will perfectly align—which I highly doubt.

Edit (rumbling): Also, from a purely semantic perspective, merging National Dex into Champions makes no sense in terms of what National Dex is supposed to represent. National Dex is about bringing your Pokemon to SV, bringing your Ferrothorn from XY to SV, where it doesn't exist. It doesn't make sense to replace National Dex with National Dex Champions, just as we didn’t replace SV with Champions. Or as you wouldn't introduce changes from BDSP into National Dex.

By that same logic, "National Dex Champions" would be a format where Pokémon or their movesets are preserved even after being removed from Champions. We're still in "Gen 1" of Pokémon Champions—you can't have a National Dex if nothing has been removed yet.
 
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Hydrametr0nice said:
Okay, I want to explain why simply merging National Dex into Champions can (and probably will) become a bureaucratic and logistical nightmare.

As far as we know, Scarlet and Violet are still the latest mainline games. Champions is not a sequel to SV, it exists as a parallel world. Based on our current understanding, when Gen 10 comes out, Champions will still exist in its own separate universe.

This raises the question: what will you do when Gen 10 releases? We have no reason to believe that the changes introduced in Champions will carry over. Will you shift to Gen 10, or will you stay in Champions? Like all the different move modifications and the changes to status conditions, we don't know if they are going to stay. If Gen 10 returns to PP values in multiples of 5, will you switch back to that while Champions continues releasing new formats using multiples of 4?

The only two things I would advocate for are allowing the newly available Mega Evolutions or creating a separate ladder. However, I will always be against implementing Champions' mechanics in National Dex as long as we don't have confirmation that Gen 10 and Champions mechanics will perfectly align—which I highly doubt.
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We do have official evidence of the opposite, Champions is confirmed to not place any bounds to what Gen 10 may do, and if anything Champions is the one limited to what core games may do.

https://www.gamesradar.com/games/po...-reference-to-help-more-players-get-into-pvp/
Looking ahead to launch, game balance is obviously top of mind for the team, as Hoshino says that "we're going to [pay] very close attention to how players are playing it, what the meta is like, and, you know, which Pokemon are strong, and maybe make balance adjustments accordingly for the next season – the next Regulation Set." That's seemingly going to be extra important considering that "there are some changes that are going to be specific to Pokemon Champions from the main series games."
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https://www.gamesradar.com/games/po...-reference-to-help-more-players-get-into-pvp/
"It's not just going to be a game we put out and, you know, it doesn't change. It's going to continue to evolve," he reiterates. "We're going to be able to support the new Pokemon that come out. So it's going to be a product that continues to evolve, but it is going to be the single title that everyone plays for the Championships."
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https://www.famitsu.com/article/202603/69795 (translation from this video)
1775916128930.png


For a broader point, In particular we're already seeing glaring changes from SV, namely all of this and far more as users keep finding more and more changes, especially with the eventual implementation of other past regional gimmicks (not as much of a factor in ND as it already has Megas and Z-Moves, but Dynamax potentially coming back does matter for Ubers, especially if tiering is reset as if it was a new generation).

Additionally there's also the entire matter of Champions itself not being bound to generational locking as it'll keep getting content based on Gen 10 and beyond, thus quite defeating the point of merging it with SV ND formats, as at that point it shouldn't be treated as the "same" generation as to be merged with SV ND formats IMO, even more so if we're going to bend backwards to reboot all formats (namely axing all current ND ladders for Champion equivalents, let alone treating Champions as SV DLC), as at that point it'd be much safer to just wait for proper Gen 10 (Winds and Waves) for a proper generational shift:

https://www.gamesradar.com/games/po...-10-000-pokemon-into-the-pvp-battler-one-day/
"We're planning to keep Pokemon Champions going far into the future – basically forever, as long as the Pokemon series is continuing," Hoshino explains. "And who knows? Far in the future, we'll have 2,000, 3,000, maybe 10,000 Pokemon.
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Elsewhere in the interview, Hoshino notes that Champions is a game that's "going to continue to evolve," supporting "the new Pokemon that come out," so we definitely can't expect the PvP game to remain stagnant. Clearly, its Switch launch on April 8 is just the beginning.
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With the above in mind, merging SV ND formats with Champions (in the sense of being treated as the same generation and thus granting the updated mechanics and species/formes on top) is ill-advised as clearly Champions is not meant to be a Gen 9 core series game, but a cross-generational side one like Go and Home, thus being forced to be kept aside until any changes linger in a more stable and within-identity manner in Gen 10.

Doing otherwise would be actively destructive to the current infrastructure and identity of ND metagames' development for no real gain beyond trying to prey on the hype of something beyond ND's identity, which has precedent as a reason to decline this sort of additions as much PLA stuff didn't get added to Gen 8 ND and had to wait for their proper featuring in SV for SV ND metas, and PLZA was similarly treated in the same manner, these precedents also highlight that adding Champions stuff to SV ND formats when it doesn't affect SV at all is a patent double standard.

All of that said, I can still agree on ND Champions as its own separate spin-off that just coexists with SV ND metas as something worth entertaining (namely its own subforum and being treated as a major NDOT, most likely focusing on ND Champions OU for now (including a permaladder of course) until there's more of an infrastructure for ND Champions UU and anything else), especially as to:

- Future-proof in the scenario where Winds and Waves fully shifts away from the turn based RPG formula and/or skips PvP modes like PLA, given we do already know that Winds and Waves won't be used in VGC (with Champions taking over its place, as noted in a priorly quoted interview segment).

- Retain the identity and meta developments of SV ND metas over rebooting them over something that'd be totally counterintuitive to their long-term labels (as Champions is not really a Gen 9 game as much Go and Home aren't Gen 8 games).

- Appeal to the hype of the new content and spirit of the intent behind ND formats being a thing in the first place.
 
hidin said:
When we do whatever we want to do with Champions, make sure that it's like Champions movepool + transfers from SS/SV/PLA/PLZA (from one of the games, not all of them combined) for new moves as well. We can probably still include the Gen 7+ logic with movepools as well but it would cause some things to not be legal, like a Mega Lopunny with Swords Dance would not be able to use Return or Toxic because it came from PLZA, where the former doesn't exist and the latter can't be taught to it. EDIT: If it was transferred from Gen 7, it can actually use SD + Return; but you get the logic. But I think it would make things even better and should be something kept on the same level of consideration as new Megas.
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I want to elaborate on this a little bit more to prevent any confusion. The logic I want NatDex Champions to follow related to movepools looks like this:

The moves that aren't usable in Pokemon Champions become usable in NatDex Champions like Return and Hidden Power, and the moves that a Pokemon learns in other games but can't use in Champions become usable as well. The existence of the moves in the game is what can be used as the reasoning to maintain this logic. To keep in brief, all moves should become usable and some new movepool combinations are created. If you want to know more, read the explanation below.

1775920118701.png

This part of the chart means that a Pokemon that comes from its base game knowing a move that it learns in said game comes into Champions, and is able to use said moves with any move that it learns in Champions. Some examples in different scenarios are:

:tauros-paldea-combat: A Paldean Tauros from SV would be able to use Tera Blast and Megahorn (Champions taught move) on the same set. Tera Blast is not usable in Champions, but becomes usable in NatDex Champions using the logic above.
:lopunny-mega: A Lopunny with Return from SM would be able to use it alongside Close Combat (Move it's learned in SS but teachable in Champions now) and Swords Dance (Move teachable in Champions). Return is not usable in Champions, but becomes usable in NatDex Champions using the logic above.
:meowstic-mega: A Meowstic with Moonblast, Stealth Rock, and Earth Power from ZA would be able to use those moves in Champions.
:togekiss: With it being an exception, a Togekiss with Calm Mind would have only its PLA learnset to work with until it has a movepool in Champions.

1775920125282.png


You can't combine two of the games listed to transfer, so the above is what is to be expected.

In the case of Pokemon Champions removing a move from a Pokemon (Say Metagross learns Sunsteel Strike and then it gets patched out later down the line), it should still be able to use Sunsteel Strike since it's now considered a move that it can't use in Champions, which makes it fall under the category of a move that was once learned but is now unusable.

Would appreciate if a mechanics guy would talk about this more. Also don't add any of the Megas that are still unreleased and please do NOT add any mechanic except Mega Evolution, only add more mechanics as they're added for us to figure out new mechanics with them as well.
 
hidin said:
I want to elaborate on this a little bit more to prevent any confusion. The logic I want NatDex Champions to follow related to movepools looks like this:

The moves that aren't usable in Pokemon Champions become usable in NatDex Champions like Return and Hidden Power, and the moves that a Pokemon learns in other games but can't use in Champions become usable as well. The existence of the moves in the game is what can be used as the reasoning to maintain this logic. To keep in brief, all moves should become usable and some new movepool combinations are created. If you want to know more, read the explanation below.

View attachment 823078
This part of the chart means that a Pokemon that comes from its base game knowing a move that it learns in said game comes into Champions, and is able to use said moves with any move that it learns in Champions. Some examples in different scenarios are:

:tauros-paldea-combat: A Paldean Tauros from SV would be able to use Tera Blast and Megahorn (Champions taught move) on the same set. Tera Blast is not usable in Champions, but becomes usable in NatDex Champions using the logic above.
:lopunny-mega: A Lopunny with Return from SM would be able to use it alongside Close Combat (Move it's learned in SS but teachable in Champions now) and Swords Dance (Move teachable in Champions). Return is not usable in Champions, but becomes usable in NatDex Champions using the logic above.
:meowstic-mega: A Meowstic with Moonblast, Stealth Rock, and Earth Power from ZA would be able to use those moves in Champions.
:togekiss: With it being an exception, a Togekiss with Calm Mind would have only its PLA learnset to work with until it has a movepool in Champions.

View attachment 823079

You can't combine two of the games listed to transfer, so the above is what is to be expected.

In the case of Pokemon Champions removing a move from a Pokemon (Say Metagross learns Sunsteel Strike and then it gets patched out later down the line), it should still be able to use Sunsteel Strike since it's now considered a move that it can't use in Champions, which makes it fall under the category of a move that was once learned but is now unusable.

Would appreciate if a mechanics guy would talk about this more. Also don't add any of the Megas that are still unreleased and please do NOT add any mechanic except Mega Evolution, only add more mechanics as they're added for us to figure out new mechanics with them as well.
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This is a programming nightmare. I doubt anyone would do more than just the current National Dex learnsets + new Champion learnsets. Even that is a bit of a pain, since it would require rebuilding the learnsets from scratch.
 
hidin said:
:tauros-paldea-combat: A Paldean Tauros from SV would be able to use Tera Blast and Megahorn (Champions taught move) on the same set. Tera Blast is not usable in Champions, but becomes usable in NatDex Champions using the logic above.
:lopunny-mega: A Lopunny with Return from SM would be able to use it alongside Close Combat (Move it's learned in SS but teachable in Champions now) and Swords Dance (Move teachable in Champions). Return is not usable in Champions, but becomes usable in NatDex Champions using the logic above.
:meowstic-m-mega: A Meowstic with Moonblast, Stealth Rock, and Earth Power from ZA would be able to use those moves in Champions.
:togekiss: With it being an exception, a Togekiss with Calm Mind would have only its PLA learnset to work with until it has a movepool in Champions.
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More than a "how", I would like to ask a "why". As far as I remember, early NDOU in Gen 8 (meaning pre-HOME) allowed for mix in movesets. For example, you could run a Togekiss with Nasty Plot and HP Ground (which shouldn't be possible as it doesn't get NP in any game where it gets HP). So, if we allowed that, what is exactly the difference between a Togekiss with Nasty Plot and HP Ground, and a Togekiss with Nasty Plot (SS), Moonblast (PLA), and HP Ground (SM and before)? I don't think it'd be a really good idea to do so, either you fully allow BDSP/PLA/PLZA or you don't. Doing that kind of restriction seems arbitrary and weird. I mean, we can work with a base of "we consider every move from every one of those games is available, as we consider a Pokémon Champions that would allow all of those Pokémon, with all of those moves from all of those games".
 
Sorry for the double post, but I thought it'd be more appropriate to have another post.

After more discussions on Discord, I wanted to give my opinion on some important points:
  • We shouldn't get Item Clause. After all, why is Item Clause a thing in Champions OU? Because it's enforced in Champions. How is it enforced? Not in the same way than, say, VGC on SV or SS etc. You're physically unable to have more than one item at all. You can pass it from one Pokémon to another in different teams, but those are functionally different teams using the same item. You can only buy each item once. It's not a functional limitation but a limitation about the number of copies of one item you can get. So National Dex can remove that, by providing more than one copy of each item, and we would still remain under National Dex' identity.
  • We should keep level 100 as default. Level 50 in Champions... Isn't real. The stats of every Pokémon is equivalent to the stats of a level 50 version of said Pokémon, but there is functionally no level at all. It could be level 50, or 100, or 1, or 67 that it changes nothing. National Dex needs to work with levels however, so we should stay with 100.
And another point: should we get a new separate tier, or "merge" into current NatDex? I think it depends on how we want to consider things:
  • If we consider it's just a fun tier, the way ZA OU was, then we can make a separate ladder.
  • If we want to fully integrate Champions and make it the future of National Dex, then we can "merge".
  • My favorite answer: we make a National Dex with Champions as the new main Champions... But we keep current one as well. On which basis? Champions isn't exactly Gen 10 or Gen 9, but it's different enough to be its own thing, and to be "the successor". And after all... SV NatDex didn't replace SS NatDex, it merely was the successor. I see no real reason to not do the same here. And the thing is... We have no precedent for something such as Champions, as it's not a new Gen, not a DLC... No precedent, we might as well create one. And I think for that, we should do the thing that has the potential to satisfy the most people. Moreover, it would have the advantage to allow for a Champions ladder before the end of NDWC, while still allowing NDWC to go well without major changes on the way.
Thanks for reading, and I hope my points were clear.
 
Y'all why does it matter if each NDOT can field two ladders at once or not? Asking PS Staff to put 4 new ladders that will compete with their SV counterparts on PS all at once is going to be very dubious when the only justification for adding them is purely grandfathered. PS Staff likes to see real quantifiable backing for these side tiers before adding a ladder. Lower tiers should get ladders if they have the playerbase for them, but I think assuming they will be provided free of charge and being concerned about this is a misunderstanding of the situation. This feels like an issue to tackle later on, when we've already decided how we want to implement champions.

The only ladders that are of concern is SV NatDex OU and a possible Champions NatDex OU being ran at the same time. Other ladders will just naturally be requested as time progresses. With their respective playerbases and PS staff deciding if it is worth adding a ladder or not.
 
Further more on the topic of discussion being derailed, I don't think it is wise to have a concrete opinion on matters regarding how to interpret champions mechanics and how NatDex moves get decided without deciding the fate of SV beforehand. Like we're getting too far ahead here. It would be much much easier to figure out how to implement Champions mechanics when SV and its tiering get addressed first. I implore leaders to figure out the setup they want to do regarding SV vs Champions so this thread can move on to the fun stuff.
 
There should be a ND Champions Ladder. Permanent along with the SV ND ladder

Natde UU, Doubles and Mono should all switch to Champions formats with their SV equivalent being eligible for Spotlight Ladder OTM. Like that is not complicated at all. It's the Logical thing to do. And Let's do it ASAP.

Moves from ZA and PLA that aren't in either SV or Champions shouldn't be usable. Did Togekiss magically keep moonblast? did Gardevoir keep Recover? no, so we shouldn't see no Parting shot Runerigus.
 
If that's the boss call then it's time to decide if we want to shake up the tier entirely or just keep going on with what we have right now, and I'm sure most of the people who play want the former. I have no ounce of wit in me for anything extra but like if that's how simple it is, then the thought process should be simple as well. TLs should make a poll and by the end of next Sunday there should be some decision on how things are going to be.
 
dhelmise said:
I'm not splitting the ladder
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In that case, I don't see any viable options besides adding the Champions content to the main format. As I've stated separately, nat dex should have a way for every Pokemon ever (that hasn't been banned, obviously) to be used. If this is how it must be done, then so be it. If not, then it's no longer a true nat dex format in my opinion. Like I said, I get that experienced players want to stick with the current meta. But it's been 4 years of gen 9 and we have dozens of new options available with mons and moveset changes. There has to be some format where they can be used.
 
Policy wise, it seems extremely unwise to add all of the Champions exclusive content to current Natdex while [Gen 8 Natdex] is a separate format. Planning for the future, we are currently essentially playing [Gen 9 Natdex], it makes absolutely zero sense introducing Pokemon released after the latest mainline Pokemon game with battles availability.

With the release of Champions, there's also like... a realistic possibility that traditional RPG battles are just over in future mainline games, especially knowing official competitions will no longer be happening in games other than Champions. If that's to be the case, NatDex has very little reason to exist for every future instalment, assuming Champions is aiming to eventually have the whole dex.

There's also the question of if the current Champions exclusive mons aren't introduced now, then when? It is very unlikely that Gen 10 will natively have Mega Evolutions assuming it retains traditional battles. But when Gen 10 is released, I think it's reasonable to assume that those Pokemon will be available in Pokemon Champions as well.

I think there's honestly, very little reason to not just create the new Champions Natdex format, it future proofs us for the possibility that traditional Pokemon battles do not return in mainline games and would essentially become the eternal format for National Dex going forward.

Now if the decision has already been made to "not split the ladder", I frankly don't really think there's much to be done, if this is the precedent we want to follow and that no "Side Game" Pokemon should be included in Natdex until they're in a "Mainline Game" which might very well be never for the Champions exclusive Pokemon, then that just sounds like it throws away the very point of what Natdex is supposed to be.

Edit: Additionally, what's the argument for not splitting the ladder now, when it was done for Gen 8 Natdex and current Natdex?
 
I think we can split the question into two questions:
Should natdex implement new megas added? - Yes. I don't see a reason why not.
Should natdex implement new mechanics? - this is a more complicated question that I want to say yes, because I like the changes champions did, especially the status nerf.
I don't know if it should be a new tier or updating the current one.
 
Of course, there is the Copperajah in the room:
With the release of Champions, we're now 3 for 3 official video game titles where Galarian Slowbro is present in a game featuring Mega Evolution, but is expressly unable to Mega Evolve - Go, Z-A, and now Champions.

Another important question should be 'how does this impact Gen8NatDex?' And that matters even if Champions winds up being a seperate ladder from SVNatDex.

Bluntly, I think that the decision to allow Galarian Slowbro to Mega Evolve in the first place was a mistake. A mistake that, when it first was decided on made sense given the information that was available, but has quickly come to make less and less sense as time goes on.
 
I'm sorry, but this thread is full of overly hyped people who can't see past their own excitement to play with the new Pokémon. It's crazy to me how you can't see that National Dex should have a formal structure and not be your personal Pet Mod playground.

National Dex shouldn't have a Champions format until Gen 10 comes out and we re-evaluate the role of Champions. Or, as I said before, make National Dex Champions a format with all the Pokémon, item, and learnsets that were in Champions at one point and got removed. This is something that would make a lot more sense and that I would firmly stand behind, and (inside the Champions universe) it aligns with what National Dex is supposed to be.

Do you want to play with the new Pokémon? You have Champions OU, and you still have Legends Z-A OU.

Xankortal said:
Of course, there is the Copperajah in the room:
With the release of Champions, we're now 3 for 3 official video game titles where Galarian Slowbro is present in a game featuring Mega Evolution, but is expressly unable to Mega Evolve - Go, Z-A, and now Champions.

Another important question should be 'how does this impact Gen8NatDex?' And that matters even if Champions winds up being a seperate ladder from SVNatDex.

Bluntly, I think that the decision to allow Galarian Slowbro to Mega Evolve in the first place was a mistake. A mistake that, when it first was decided on made sense given the information that was available, but has quickly come to make less and less sense as time goes on.
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Sigh...

Nobody decided to "allow Galarian Slowbro to Mega Evolve". In Gens 6 and 7, Mega Charizard X could Mega Evolve into Mega Charizard Y while holding Charizardite Y. This makes it pretty clear that the check for Mega Evolution was based on Pokédex number, not form.

Since National Dex follows the mechanics from all mainline games up to SV, there is no other option but to keep it as it is. This is as simple to understand as it would be if Assault Vest boosted Defense instead of Special Defense in BDSP—you wouldn't change it in National Dex.

This idea of "let’s choose what seems to make sense" is a nightmare. That would be the same as giving Hidden Power to all Gen 8+ Pokémon or Tera Blast to all Pokémon not in SV just because it seems to make sense.
 
Hydrametr0nice said:
This idea of "let’s choose what seems to make sense" is a nightmare. That would be the same as giving Hidden Power to all Gen 8+ Pokémon or Tera Blast to all Pokémon not in SV just because it seems to make sense.
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this already happened with the official policy that dmax just wouldn't be in gen 9 natdex so god forbid they didnt have to code a mechanic splitting them, of course megas + z + tera worked absolutely fine and definitely didn't make any assumptions of how those mechanics would interact, of course. we made up a rule so anything goes wouldnt need to have dmax coded in, especially since it wouldve probably been quickbanned from ou, anyways (and maybe even ubers)

this tier has always been a lot of contradictions because it is a petmod lol, and that isnt a problem, its whatever people decide


Hydrametr0nice said:
National Dex shouldn't have a Champions format until Gen 10 comes out and we re-evaluate the role of Champions. Or, as I said before, make National Dex Champions a format with all the Pokémon, item, and learnsets that were in Champions at one point and got removed. This is something that would make a lot more sense and that I would firmly stand behind, and (inside the Champions universe) it aligns with what National Dex is supposed to be.
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idk how many times this needs to be reiterated but the old way of doing smogon tiering is outdated and cooked

champions and the live service format guarantees that

generation 10 isn't going to be the new big thing, champions is gen 10 ou, and gen 11 ou, and gen 12 ou, and etc

it is time to get with the times. ive argued in this thread before that natdex can last longer than regular sv tiers in the attention economy, but waiting until gen 10 drops is a fucking hilarious thing and basically a fish deciding to bite onto the hook on purpose. idk how many ways tpc needs to communicate "Champions is competitive Pokemon now" and fuck with the entire battle system in games that are officially mainline games, to get the memo that the old way of doing things is just not happening

this is a microcosm of what feels like smogon in several parts of the site really trying to hold onto the old stability and 'rules of how this franchise works' when game freak is a dog with a gun strapped to its holster shooting hoops for three pointers at this very moment feels shortsighted

there are like 10 threads like this one that really dont make sense unless you assume gen 10 is a linear incremental generation of competitive pokemon when there are like 10 different reasons to believe it isnt. thats why the point of splitting the tiers exists, because champions isn't going away, and if gen 10 needs to be its own tier that should be the continuation of gen 9 nationaldex where champions nationaldex could always be in lockstep with the actual main show of competitive pokemon.

generations as we know it are dead (and tbh already were dead given dlc, and now 5 year waits between games) and we need to get with the times
 
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