Announcement Tera Blast Suspect Test — Qualified Discussion

Ruft

I was just about to ask for a light
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OU Leader
Tera Blast is being suspect tested from SV OU, which you can see here. This thread will be used as "qualified" discussion per the decision made here!

This means that if you qualified for the Roaring Moon suspect test here or qualify for this suspect test, you can post here (and/or in the public thread if you wish). If you have any questions, PM me. If you post, but do not qualify, your post will be deleted and you will be infracted. Here are some prompting questions to get the ball rolling:
  • Do you think Tera Blast deserves a ban in SV OU? Why or why not?
  • Which Pokemon does Tera Blast push over the edge if you think it is broken?
  • What are the relevant drawbacks of Tera Blast if you think it is not broken?
  • Have there been any new developments pertaining to using or dealing with Tera Blast that helped shape your opinion? If so, what are they?
  • If you are undecided, what are your overall thoughts on Tera Blast and what are you looking at to reach a conclusion?
Please note normal suspect posting rules do apply here.
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  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Tera Blast is banworthy or not.
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Tera Blast vs other potential suspects;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
  • Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
    • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
    • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
    • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
    • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
    • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

The suspect reasoning, directly from Finchinator's OP, can be found below:
Tera Blast has been the elephant in the room of SV OU for some time now, occasionally sticking its trunk out for a policy discussion or two before retreating. After some elapsed time, a recent tiering thread aimed towards finding consensus had players coalescing around Tera Blast. While many Tera Blast users are balanced and we must accept this premise to proceed in good faith, Tera Blast has been the common thread in multiple Pokemon bans and is a key component of controversial Pokemon in current SV OU.

Banning moves, rather than Pokemon, does not tend to be Smogon's MO unless they prove to break an overwhelming portion of users. However, a universally distributed move like Tera Blast has muddied the waters. It is true that there are a myriad of healthy users of Tera Blast within the context of OU. For example, nobody is calling Iron Moth or Enamorus problematic. There are other users of the move that regularly surface in tiering discussions such as Dragonite, Kingambit, and Kyurem though. In addition, you can point towards Tera Blast when discussing the bans of Volcarona, Regieleki, and arguably other Ubers as well. Moreover, it became clear that Tera Blast afforded certain Pokemon a disruptive offensive option that made accounting for them in teambuilding a challenge. With this link and the recent uptick in community support kept in mind, the OU council unanimously supported shifting our focus to Tera Blast. A suspect felt like the most appropriate way to proceed from there.

Many people who are in favor of acting on Tera Blast will argue that the additional coverage warps defensive counterplay. You can find examples within historic OUs with Espathra using Tera Blast Fighting or a plethora of options on Volcarona, but the best use of this suspect would be to focus on current OU! Dragonite uses Tera Blast Fly to give it powerful Flying type STAB that it otherwise lacks; this allows for Dragonite to become more immediately threatening and limits the pool of would-be checks to other variants. Tera Blast Fairy Dragonite also must be respected in-game due to occasional use. Kingambit uses Tera Blast Fairy to flip the match-up against frequently encountered Zamazenta, Great Tusk, and others. You can continue going through examples like Dragon Dance Kyurem or Swords Dance Ceruledge, who have both surfaced in tiering discussions, in the current metagame as well. The common thread between them all would be that normal switch-ins suddenly get disposed of by a timely Tera Blast, allowing for a sweep or irreperable damage to the game's state in some cases.

On the contrary, some players will note that Tera Blast comes with a large opportunity cost, can be predicted in advance given the many common uses of it, and arguably does not break many Pokemon in the tier as things stand. It is true that Tera Blast does cost both your Terastallization for the battle and a valuable moveslot on an offensive centerpiece; in the event that it does not work out, this can prove costly. Tera Blast without commitment is essentially a dead moveslot after all. On top of this, the aforementioned users of Tera Blast like Dragonite and Kingambit have been staples in the metagame for over a year, allowing for players to do their best at accounting for them in the builder and grow familiar with their lines against them in the battle. Finally, no Pokemon have stood out as undoubtedly broken, with or without Tera Blast, in recent history. Dragonite could qualify for a suspect test and potentially get banned, but nothing else in the metagame registers as particularly close despite Kingambit, Kyurem, Ceruledge, and plenty of others using Tera Blast often and effectively. You can argue this alone is enough to take away from the case that Tera Blast is the element warranting a ban.

No matter which side you stand on, Tera Blast is at the center of many strategies in our metagame. It can help circumvent counterplay for already threatening Pokemon, but it does mandate sinking your resources into executing the strategy. Multiple past Pokemon have been banned largely due to abusing Tera Blast and some argue Dragonite or others could be broken now as a result of Tera Blast. However, a vast majority of Tera Blast users are seen as balanced in the landscape of SV OU. This suspect test allows our playerbase to determine the fate of Tera Blast as we move forward with an additional year of SV OU!
VIEW VOTER REQS HERE
 
While any Pokemon could theoretically use tera blast to muscle past checks, these seem to be the mons affected by a Tera Blast ban:

- Dragonite is able to run Tera Blast Fly and Fairy quite effectively
- Kingambit with TB Fairy/Fire
- Dragapult with TB Ghost
- Kyurem with dd and TB Fire and Electric.
- Enamorus with TB Stellar
- Serperior with TB Ground/Fire

In addition the following are also present but somewhat niche in my view
- Iron Moth with TB Ground
- Ceruledge with TB Fairy
- Raging Bolt with TB Fairy

The following is also possible but rarely seen:
- Rillaboom with TB Fire/Electric
- Garchomp with TB Electric

Thus, a ban to tera would likely affect these mons. In my view, Dragonite and Kyurem already have too much set variability and a ban to TB would create a more balanced metagame by limiting the number sets they could feasibly run. Kingambit is not as broken with TB, but seeing as how every team needs Gambit counters, it would ease the pressure on balance teams needing to run multiple checks for gambit in case of different teras and would practically enable Corv and Mandibuzz as hard counters.

Every other mon is not really broken with tera blast (at the moment), but I think limiting the broken few are more than enough to warrant the ban.

I will be voting ban for sure.
 
Just got reqs. Haven't watched Blunder's video yet so haven't downloaded my official opinion, but I'm leaning towards ban. I think it's uncompetitive. It's dead weight sometimes, and completely cracked other times so it's super matchup fishy. Of course, like with tera, you can expect what sort of tera blasts you're gonna see and play around it, but there is a strong possibility of getting hit with some weirdo shit and losing for it. It's not super clear cut, and I wouldn't be super upset to see it not get banned, but I don't think that means we shouldn't ban it. This late in the gen, all the obvious stuff is gone, and the meta is pretty balanced, so it's really about marginal improvements. Any yeah its not oppressive on all mons that use tera blast, let alone all mons that get it, but this hasn't stopped things like baton pass and trapping from getting axed. Tera blast on its top abusers probably is oppressive, even if sometimes it's a dud.


I also think this is as close to a balance patch from any other game as we can get. If we could balance the game and not ban stuff (I'm not in favour of complex bans to be clear), I think three of the first mons I'd nerf are dnite, gambit and kyurem. All 3 of them, in that order for me, are potentially banworthy. We have a chance to knock them all down a peg, without the huge meta shakeup that would come with getting rid of one. It probably wouldnt even significantly knock them from their positions as top offensive mons. We're also slapping screens on the wrist by lightly nerfing bolt, ceru and I guess goltres, none of whom deserve a ban or anything, but will be about the same without tera blast. Maybe we get to test or unban some mons from ubers, idk if that's in the scope of this discussion, and doesn't sway me either way but it's interesting. And the collateral damage is a nerf to moth, who isn't hugely important to the meta, and the occasional tera blast serp, enam and rilla? Yeah there's less options in the builder, but I feel like slapping on unexpected tera blast is lazy creativity. Coming from other games (Overwatch...), where I'm pretty happy to see the top picks get nerfed, usually alongside like 10 awful unnecesary decisions, I'd say this would be a pretty great balance patch. I think the game is straightforwardly improved with top threats weakened, variance decreased and no real change to the essence of the tier. The details of the broken or not broken argument feels almost unimportant compared to this to me tbh.
 
I think tera blast deserves a BAN in my opinion. This mechanic is pretty unhealthy and NOT competitive at all considering random mons can get coverage moves of their choice, esp dnite, gambit, etc. For me, it’s effect on the meta isn’t too outrageous to the point where it needs an immediate ban and I think its manageable in the current meta with new adaptation. However, it doesn’t add anything healthy to the meta and it just keeps adding more threats we need to account for in the builder aside from wpon, kyu, dnite, ceru etc.

Dragonite
The elephant in the room, and one of the main abusers of tera blast. Some people think that this needs to be banned while most think tb is the main issue and I think so too. This move is what makes tb dnites so mu fishy bc it requires the right mu to be able to use it right in practice. This goes with other abusers, sometimes it can work and sometimes it won’t and it adds the 50/50 factors to them whether they have it or not.

With tb gone in the tier, there can be more freedom in the builder (specifically not having to acc for tb dnite), and we can maybe even explore newer possibilities like the retests of certain mons that got banned bc of tera blast to introduce new life into the tier in a meta w/o an unhealthy mechanic such as tera. I will not change my opinion and I hope to see tera blast go.
 
Just got reqs. Haven't watched Blunder's video yet so haven't downloaded my official opinion
Mod note: removed

Anyway, I think this move is fundamentally stupid in 6v6 with no tera preview, but I understand that ship has probably sailed so I think the best course of action is just to nuke the move. eleki can obviously come back right away (even tho it will have next to 0 metagame impact) and volcarona is also probably now fine and would be a nice addition. Dragonite becomes less dumb, Kingambit can't just delete it checks from the game and becoming arguably the best type in the game for doing so, and other defensive staples become generally more reliable when checks can't just click the funny button to instadelete them. There's gonna be some unfortunate casualties like cb pult and scarf enam but I think the trade off is more than worth it, pult has a million other sets, specs and mixed lo are solid breakers, and scarf enam doesn't need tb stellar to be good.

Don't think this ban will remove the inherit issues this format has with cheese, tho. A lot of misinformation going around ngl. However anything to mitigate the issue, even slightly, is a good thing. This shoulda happened sooner but ig its just good that tour players have finally gotten tired of this move stealing games. I've lost most of my motivation for SV OU but I can prob sneak in reqs this weekend
 
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Holy shit man is it so hard to just form your own opinion lmao? overall your post was good, which makes it even more silly you won't just vote with your own opinion. If this is a joke mb but worth mentioning anyway since I know a of people just blindly follow the opinions of others
I'm just kidding hahahaha, I've got my own opinions

I do agree though that this ban honestly doesn't change a huge amount but I think that's ok? To be honest I wouldn't mind a bigger shakeup, but given how hard it's been to get even a suspect test going, I think the majority of people like the tier. Just like how gen 5 won't ban the magic guard guys because they're central to the feel of the tier, but can ban smaller things like cloyster, I think we can only really change the smaller things. But its defo worth improving what we can
 
Just got reqs in a 38-3 run so I figured I’d share my thoughts. As seen above this thread’s not off to a great start, but I’ll try to combat that with some thoughtful discussion. Tera Blast certainly deserves a ban in SVOU, though it’s certainly an atypical offender. There’s very little precedent to go off of banning universally distributed moves, save for say Hidden Power in a slough of draft formats, but I’m here to make the case that Tera Blast is broken in large part BECAUSE of its universal distribution.

The pokemon pushed over the edge by Tera Blast are rather immediately clear - Dragonite and Kingambit are the big two offenders, but even mons like Ceruledge and Enamorus are capable of using Tera Blast to easily blast through matchups they frankly should not be (see ima vs Silent Waltz in OST). Although this doesn’t tie into my reasoning for voting ban, I find it important contextually to note the history surrounding this move and past mons its been broken on - Regieleki, Volcarona, and Roaring Moon were all banned in large part to Tera Blast (and some have pointed to Espathra and Gouging Fire, both of which I find broken regardless, but I digress).

In the interest of a more complete argument, I’ll try to cover what the do not ban perspective would claim the relevant drawbacks of Tera Blast are. It’s an opportunity cost, a wasted moveslot in games where Tera is demanded by another relevant mon. It’s also usually not great into anything aside from a select clade of designated targets - you’d often be itching for other coverage, perhaps higher bp moves, even after exhausting at a time when it’s worth it. However, I see the “opportunity cost” as a heavily overemphasized element, as the Tera Blast users who use it best often Terastalize into excellent defensive typings that are also great at responding to emergency threats when other Teras would be potentially demanded - take Fairynite, Ghostnite and Kingambit for example. Additionally, in matchups where Tera Blast is less useful, this is often not even a downside - no Tera Blast targets likely means anything you would’ve liked to remove already isn’t posing a threat to you cleaning through an already good matchup regardless.

Some new developments I’ve seen pertaining to Tera Blast that are shaping my opinion are the sheer volume of threats using the move to breeze past checks they shouldn’t be able to, and much more significantly in my opinion, break open holes they shouldn’t be able to for their teammates to breeze through. Take Rillaboom, for example - using Tera Blast Fire, Electric, and even Fairy, it’s able to blow open threats (fat fliers and waters for the former two, Dnite and Zama for the latter) in a way that’s really hard to scout when considering the possibility of a very independently scoutable pool of Wood Hammer, Knock Off, and High Horsepower added to the picture.

My overall thoughts on Tera Blast and the things I’ve looked at to come to this conclusion are simply, what tera brings to the tier - very little other than “fun”, which is immensely subjective and inherently a poor impetus for any assessment, and “more building options”, which I view largely as a guise for enabling unhealthy structures. However, these small positives pale in comparison to the immense stress Tera Blast puts on the builder, the immense stress it puts on navigating gameplay in a reasonable manner, and the immense stress it pushes on healthy metagame components towards being broken.
 
I'm gonna keep it real, throughout my suspect run I had planned on voting DNB for a number of reasons. Firstly, I feel like the meta has developed well enough naturally through time. We have a good meta here, and such a centralizing change felt a little bit scary to me. Secondly, I love the opportunity it gives to less viable Pokémon to shine like Serperior and Thundurus. But now, after a good seven hours of sleep and a refreshed mind, I've changed my mind to voting BAN and I'll just give some thoughts on why.

Firstly, as everyone and their mother has said before, tera blast is enabling already great sweepers in the tier like Dragonite, Kyurem, Kingambit, and Ceruledge by providing them with 120 bp coverage moves in addition to helping them out on the defensive end. I'll steal a little bit of Aquilo's argument here in saying that many advocates for a DNB vouch for its opportunity cost. It's only partially true - as Aquilo said, tera blast users are benefiting enough from a defensive tera already. It's also a huge matchup fish and makes offensive type combinations that are either extremely difficult to resist or would otherwise be entirely impossible very tangible versus most defensive cores.

My second reason is far less of a competitive assessment, so apologies in advance. I want to see the Ubers Pokémon that were pushed over the edge by tera blast get suspected to come back to OU - i.e. Volcarona, Roaring Goon, and Regieleki (altho this one will just be a shitter lets be real). This is an entirely subjective hope of mine and has no grounds in the competitive realm.

Finally, tera blast has really become slammable on just about anything. Like I can run it on almost any offensive mon that prefers setup or specs/band and I will not get punished hard for it. Like Aquilo said, Rillaboom is running tera blast now. I've seen specs tera fairy blast Zapdos on rain structures. Of course there's also tera blast gmolt albeit less oppressive as a whole. There's of course tera blast darkrai which is less good than the rest but could still go crazy into the right structure. There's also tera blast dragapult, enamorus, iron moth, I mean shit ive even seen tera blast NP pech and tera blast SD Gliscor and those sets could obliterate in the right matchup. There's simply too many abusers, albeit many not as strong as the big 4 (or big 5 if you count Enamorus), that can easily warp matchups and make things feel uncompetitive. Direct 120 BP coverage that applies on the same turn as it's activated will never be healthy for Pokémon - not now and not back in late 2023 either.
 
Am I the only one who thinks this is a glorified complex ban/test just to avoid testing dragonite because of its many positive traits within the tier? Lets look at what pokemon use tera blast and what it does for their viability or overall presence in the tier.

Ubers: Former OU pokemon that have been banned that had tera blast as part of the reasoning behind the test
-Espathra: fundamentally fishy or degenerate pokemon that absolutely needs to respected and forces you to keep you dark types healthy so you aren't losing to dgleam + stored power in the endgame. Tblast realistically sped up this process but was not at the core of its degeneracy
-Regieleki: This guy just isn't great either way, if you run water blast for treads other grounds give you more issues and dragons now click vs you for free. Also a massive tera hog for an ok payoff. No one bothered to really test this guy because he doesn't really do anything.
-Volcarona: Does not matter if it has tera blast or not, if it has the right set it wins. Tera turns this up to 11, tblast to 12. It will do exactly what it has been doing for 15 years and 5 generations no matter what. Biggest change here is ensuring that dirge always beats it which is cool I guess.
-Roaring Moon: Leaving out personal thoughts on how this guy fixes the meta, fairy blast was one of the notable sets brought up during the suspect. However, like every other tblast pokemon, the opportunity cost is still glaringly there and bigger problems were just how strong it was after 1 dragon dance along with bulkier sets shifting how you may have to approach it. Something that exemplifies this is the corviknight interaction vs +1 moon where there is a 50/50 created between clicking idef or roost as the corviknight depending on if the moon clicks dragon dance or knock off, respectively.
-Gouging Fire: Tera blast fairy is the most notable tblast set, just like moon. However, the sheer bulk it had made dd sets very hard to shut down and banded sets in sun were pretty much impossible to switch into, with the afforementioned bulk making it hard to stop. Its stats seem alright but nothing stand-out on paper but it happened to be the perfect amalgamation of numbers to be too much. Tera blast or not, it had the tools to beat what it wanted to.

Poster children: OU pokemon that are leading the charge behind the current suspect
-Dragonite: This is public enemy #1 at the moment. The set variety that tera blast allows is beyond any pokemon we have seen bar volcarona. This pokemon can already use the majority of tera types reliably and tera blast increases the variety of these sets, with flying, fairy and ghost being used with tera blast. Its also bulky like 3 of the banned set-up pokemon. So why not just test this pokemon? Extreme speed sets keep a lot of other threatening pokemon in check like ogerpon, kingambit after tera, sun as an archetype, valiant, etc. It faces a very similar issue to volcarona where it offers very real benefits to the tier but also has a very degenerate aspect that is enabled by the exact same tool kit.
-Kingambit: Tera blast fairy, sometimes fly are what are used on this pokemon most frequently if its tblast. But there is such a big opportunity cost not having iron head or low kick paired up with kowtow as the 2nd attack. Instead of having potential opportunities to chip tusk/zama down with this midgame, you are now relying on using these pokemon as fodder and blowing them up in the endgame. There is a very clear give & take here and, ultimately gambit can do this regardless of tera blast since tera inherently allows it to do this.
-Dragapult: Banded dragapult is very honest and frankly if this was brought up by anyone as a reason to ban tera blast I could not take thier opinion seriously. The other set it runs with tera blast is dragon dance, usually fire. Dragapult is far frailer than all of the other dd abusers though, and is usually easier to navigate becuase of the inherent drawbacks + the set pulling away from its normal utility, which the banned pokemon, barring eleki, dragonite, and kingambit don't suffer, limits the usage of it.
-Kyurem: Ground, electric, fire are the most common ones used, specifically on DD sets. However the opportunity cost does become pretty glaring when the tera blast isn't the one needed or is otherwise dead weight in that match-up. At the moment we are seeing a lot more AV kyurems, leftovers, never-melt ice, choice specs, non-dd dice along with moves that don't need an additional cost because it is threatening as is thanks to 130 in both offenses and great coverage that can be slotted together easily.
-Enamorus: Scarf tera stellar, only tblast set it runs and is a reliable cleaner. Very frail and not super strong until 2 or 3 boosts so ample opportunities to stop it. I think it has a cool dynamic which isn't super unlike serperior in older generations but it trades some of the more dishonest bits (glare, subseed) and stab here for an unresisted attack that denies tera. Pretty neat addition to the tier.

Niche blasters: Pokemon that use tera blast occasionally but usually have more consistent or reliable tools to use
Note: I won't elaborate as much here since none of these pokemon are contentious at all
-Alomomola: Poison for ogerpon
-Ceruledge: Fairy for bypassing zama/tusk while resisting sucker
-Darkrai: Fairy on rest, sub plot
-Gliscor: Fairy on SD sets on occasion
-Iron Crown: Ground on sub cm to compress coverage, fblast is used over it as well
-Iron Moth: Ground for heatran and other fires, Dark to beat gking + resist sucker
-Iron Valiant: Ground in conjunction with tbolt or vacuum wave
-Landorus-Therian: Flying on scarf
-Pecharunt: Fighting on nasty plot on very specific HOs
-Raging Bolt: Ice to beat grounds or Fairy to beat lu, tusk, zama
-Rillaboom: Electric, Fire to beat through birds of different varieties, Fairy for dragons, all on SD sets
-Tornadus-Therian: Fairy on some teams on AV to beat bolt
-Zapdos: Ice to hit scor, lando
-Blaziken: Fairy to beat tusk, zama
-Iron Boulder: Fairy to beat tusk, zama
-Kommo-O: Fairy on certain rest clang sets
-Moltres-Galar: Fairy over hurricane on some sets
-Polteageist: Fighting to hit gambit & other darks
-Excadrill: Ice, Electric, Fire, Fairy for various targets
-Sandy Shocks: Ice or Fairy for grounds, dragons
-Serperior: Fire, Rock but these are ass don't run tblast
-Thundurus-Therian: Ice to hit grounds, Fly for stab

Going through all of the listed pokemon we see 3 important things, 1) Fairy blast (or ice in some cases) are the most commonly used additional coverage, often to bypass the fightings and grounds that keep these pokemon in check at the cost of losing a moveslot and having to either burn tera early or hold off on it until late game to ensure the intended payoff is there 2) Stabs for pokemon that lack a reliable stab of that type, pretty much all flying types 3) Set-up sweepers using tblast to beat typical answers. #2 is healthy and fine, everyone could probably agree.

#1 & #3 tie together directly largely. The pokemon that only gain coverage with no set-up that use tera blast are not dissimilar to hidden power users of the past but with a far greater opportunity cost, so these are non-issues. Getting back to the set-up pokemon, as previously mentioned in the blurb about kyurem and kingambit, there is still a glaring opportunity cost which prevents you from wearing down or breaking certain pokemon that normally check you but can be punished with standard coverage, and in the case of kingambit specifically it is the tera flip itself that is the most dangerous aspect not the tera blast. Obviously if you get the snipe you needed you are put in a great position to win the game however, is this really so different from teching weakness berries to flip interactions or getting hit by a surprise Z-move? It is harder to scout but often times with these pokemon, barring kingambit sometimes, will only ever get one opportunity to set-up and it is realistically very possible to force this tera out earlier than late game because of the constrained coverage without it. Once it is forced early, not only do you know the surprise/set, you are firmly placed in control since that team will often rely on that unexpected mu flip to win or they tera something else & lose that flip entirely.

This leaves just dragonite. Dragonite, more than any pokemon legal in SV OU ever, besides volcarona, abuses tera blast in a very unpredictable way. Its movepool is extremely deep and colorful due to being a gen 1 pokemon, multiscale bolsters its bulk, and its great special attack even lets it run sets like edgequake hurricane in the past to bypass tusk. This ability to mix and match arguably gives it the largest range of viable teras with the 2nd most types of usable, common tera blasts besides excadrill which is far more limited in scope. However, I think there is one big reasons why dnite is still kept around & tera blast is being tested instead of just dnite here. Lopping tera blast off of its toolkit limits some of the crazier sets (bulky fairy to beat pech, fly for high damage output on dd sets) while keeping the extreme speed sets. The amount of strong offensive pokemon with crazy speed tiers is obviously very high, no need to elaborate here but, besides gambit, which every mon techs for, there isn't another reliable option to shut down these threats. Bulky dd and dtail sets also work as fantastic options to curb ogerpon and sun in one slot. But since dnite clearly is the actual problem child here, why wasn't this addressed directly and then tier things as needed later down the line? Why neuter every other user which has extremely defined constraints when there is only 1 glaringly variance heavy abuser?

In defense of dragonite however, the sets, not unlike roaring moon, can be roughly deduced. Bulky offense? Espeed. HO? Tblast. Aggressive hazard control? It lacks boots and will be a greedier (lefties, bulky cloak etc.) set. There is also generally pretty limited overlap between movesets, with dragon dance being the move that is overlapped 99% of the time, with earthquake, roost and encore carrying some overlap. Even then, the structure will give away if that earthquake dragonite is tblast or espeed often enough and roost, encore can be estimated from the item as well. Compare this to the two pokemon who are banned and had said ban attributed to tera blast to an extent as well, Volcarona & Roaring Moon. Both of these have 2 guarenteed moves rather than 1, with quiver dance + fire move or dragon dance + knock off. They diverge from here. Moon has a far more limited movepool, with 2 of acro, taunt, eq, tblast, roost rounding off the set more often than not. This limited pool + team structure usually makes it pretty predictable. Volcarona, like dragonite, has a deeper pool to pull from including sub, wisp, secondary stab, morning sun, giga drain and 4 different viable tera blasts. Because of the high variance of its last 2 slots which flip games way beyond anything else ever legal in the tier could do, being able to reveal 2 moves without unveiling any information on the set and, unlike dragonite in most instances, volcarona does not need to have its tera align with a tera blast or move in its movepool. In practice, it ends up ok enough to manage just because of how much information the item, attack clicked transmits compared to even non-problematic tera blasters and its raw power is good but not great, often needing +2 to kill with super effective moves on bulkier pokemon, barring fly blast, which gives reasonable opportunity to navigate it. There is also the fact that it is slower than many scarfers at +1, and slower than booster pokemon, some scarfers at +2 if you don't give up much needed power for jolly.

At the moment I am Do Not Ban because it feels largely managable but, I can't say I would lament it getting cut.
 
Just got my reqs. I am by no means an expert on SV, but I follow tournament coverage super heavily and have been laddering on and off for most of the generation. That all said, I specifically went out of my way to get voting requirements for this suspect because I think that Tera Blast is bad for the tier and am hoping the vote results in a ban. While I wholeheartedly agree that Tera is at the core of SV (and overall I think Tera is an incredibly positive force on the ingenuity and fun of the meta), I think Tera Blast puts it over the edge into matchup-fishiness and often uncompetitiveness. SV contains an unprecedented number of threats to account for in the builder, to the point where even the most competent players/builders often go into high-stakes matches with the attitude of "if my opponent has exactly this set/tera/terablast, then I likely just lose at matchup and it is what it is". While this has been the case in other OU metas before (with regard to number of threats to prep for), Tera Blast pushes this problem way over the edge and causes far too many games to be determined by a player having to gamble on their opponent not being a certain Tera Blast on their Nite/Gambit/Kyurem in order to have any winning chances. While Tera type is something that can be handled in builder and managed as the game continues, Tera Blast often is not, simply due to the sheer number of possibilities that an opposing sweeper has at their disposal. I think that this results in a less competitive meta and less freedom in the teambuilder which to me means it should be banned.

I also have seen people in the past make the argument that if Tera Blast pushes things like Nite/Gambit/Kyurem over the edge, it is those things that should be banned instead of Tera Blast itself. Personally, I disagree with this sentiment and I believe that all three of these most prominent Tera Blast coverage users are healthy metagame forces if they do not have the ability to choose their counters to such a ridiculous extent with Tera Blast. Could I see tiering action in the future on Dragonite specifically? Maybe, but without Tera Blast at its disposal I think the fervor to ban it will die down significantly and it'll go back to being its amazing--but crucially more predictable and counterplayable--self.

Overall, I think SV is in a pretty good place right now but I think that voting ban on Tera Blast will make it even better.
 
I'm kind of on the fence with Tera Blast. For me at least, the issue with Tera Blast solely lies with Dragonite, as all of the other abusers are much more manageable. Kyurem is similar to Dragonite, but its need to run Loaded Dice (barring the Sub Tera Electric set), its lack of recovery, and the fact that one of its moves will definitely be Icicle Spear make it a fair bit easier to handle (still not easy). Unlike other Pokemon that just use Tera Blast as coverage, Dragonite and Kyurem can both use the move to win the game on the spot as setup sweepers. That's where my frustrations with Tera Blast end though.

Though Gambit can run Tera Blast Fairy (and Flying sometimes), it arguably can already do similar things just by using these types defensively. Tera Blast makes it easier to break through Pokemon like Tusk, but I don't think it adds that much to how strong it is. Even with Tera Blast, its greatest strength is still boosted Sucker Punch alongside the ability to change its typing, since it can't boost its speed.

In comparison to Gambit and Kyurem, Dragonite can usually get away with whatever item it wants provided it has the right team support, and its last two moves have a lot more variance. The utility moves are what push it over the edge as a Tera Blast abuser, in my opinion. Encore, Roost, and Substitute (and sometimes a combination of these, like on the mono Fly blast set) all have such different answers that it's difficult to judge what the initial response should be, not to mention the item choice can also get rid of some of these responses. I don't want this to turn into a "Dnite broken" post though.

All the other abusers, whether it be Band Pult, Scarf Enam, or the rando blasters that use the move for additional coverage don't feel broken to me. While in theory any Pokemon can use any type of Tera Blast to cheese past checks, in practice, only a particular set of Pokemon will use the move for coverage, and each Pokemon often uses the same set of types as well. I feel like keeping up to date on what Pokemon are running around with these sets is a bit similar to understanding what defensive Teras Pokemon are running, which has been a part of SV since the beginning. I definitely can see why this might be unreasonable though. Given the strength of Tera Blast, as well as the variety of other sets mons can run, it can feel difficult to account for everything in game.

I don't really think any of the Pokemon that will return with Tera Blast banned will be that beneficial to the metagame either. Regieleki will be homeless, Volcarona can still fish the right set to win any MU with defensive Teras and its movepool/spread, and Roaring Moon can do all the same things as before, just without Fairy Blast. Taunt, bulky Roost sets, and 3A sets can do most of the same things with Tera Flying/Ground/Ghost, while still being able to use Fairy as a defensive type. I just don't see these adding many positive things to the metagame, though I could be wrong, and you can't know for sure until you test them.

That was a whole lot of yap, but to summarize, I don't think Tera Blast is broken on the majority of Pokemon. While I wouldn't be sad to see it go, I also like the current state of SV OU, minus my occasional issues with Dragonite. To me, it's a question of if banning Tera Blast as a whole is better than looking at Dragonite specifically. Dragonite does currently do honest work (sometimes) by keeping a lot of mons in check and it leaving would change the metagame a lot, not necessarily for the better.
 
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Ban Da Blast



I think it's hardly a unique opinion that Dragonite and Kingambit are controversial presences. However, banning Dnite and arguably also Gambit would make this tier unplayable, since obviously tblast sets aren't all they do, with Dnite providing hstack teams a decent Pon check, sun check, you know what espeed dnite does. Gambit is a little more contentious but I definitely think it's otherwise not up for debate with tb out of the picture, and also provides positively to the tier with its 1000 resists allowing it to be a check for rai gking ghold etc., hence i'm voting ban
 
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I preface this by saying that I am only a ladder player so I know my opinion will be a bit different than tour players. That being said, I am relatively active on the ladder, and I feel like I have a solid understanding of (at least ladder) SVOU. I will also apologize in advance if my opinion has been shared prior and I am not adding much to the discussion.

I don't really feel like I have seen many, if any, strong arguments for banning tera blast. I *personally* think that the argument that tera makes for too many matchup fishes, matchup flips, and guessing games is almost too niche to be a deciding factor. There are exactly 2 relevant (unbanned) pokemon where I find that this is a real problem: DNite and Kyurem. DNite can run anything and Kyurem can run 3 options on its DD sets. I agree that both of these pokemon can be incredibly difficult to deal with considering the guessing games, but I don't really see that as an argument for banning tera blast. Every other common tera blast user is fairly predictable, and when someone is using a really insane tera blast set, it's probably not viable in 9/10 of games, so I'm not so worried about it. Unviable but niche sets that only work in specific scenarios have always been a thing, and while it may be worst with tera blast, the opportunity cost of using tera on something like that makes it seem no banworthy. And I don't think losing a couple of games to a really unfortunate tera flip constitutes banworthiness (again, for tournaments I would see how this could be more frustrating). I would be far more in favor of banning either of both of DNite and Kyruem, although I'm not even necessarily pro that option either.

I think that the strongest argument would be the retesting of a bunch of banned mons, but I am not even really sure that many of them would be unbanned or would add much to the tier. I happen to think that SVOU is pretty balanced right now, and quite fun, at that, and tera blast adds a tiny level of flair and uncertainty that I welcome (on ladder). I think SV could face a small resurgence if tera blast was banned, but I think I don't the gen is in such a weak place that it needs a revitalization, especially with much focus going to Champions anyways.

I want to make it clear that I don't actually have a staunch opinion one way or the other- if tera blast gets banned I don't think I will be upset. But, I lean more in the camp of if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and I don't think SV or tera blast is broken. Unless I can be convinced otherwise, which I am more than open to, I will likely be voting Do Not Ban
 
Tera Blast is super unhealthy, but I might vote No Ban just becase I do think the real solution to this tier is to have Open Tera, that makes life so much easier and you will be able to know how to react/play vs. your opponent, other formats like Draft or VGC plays with Open Tera and thats just perfect, that solves a lot of problems, Tera Blast is just the biggest problem of having Close Tera, but still a lot of coinflips will occur during the game with it banned. So yeah, Tera Blast is broken as fuck, but if we ban it, we won't ever have the real solution which is Open Tera.
 
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