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Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter dhelmise
- Start date
I've seen people complaning about mgengar and mlucario, when they are actualy fine ?
I mean, if you see a m gengar just read it to not get you trapped, use scarf to revenge kill, or a priority ? and if you don't, why don't you use a berrty to lower his damage or heal yourself, since the lack of item on champion litteraly encourage the use of those items.
for m lucario I can agree, maybe its a little TO much, but I mean, when you build, you want speed control, the only speed item is scarf, and with priority you should be able to deal with it... even if yes, his damage are very overkill, so it become hard to beat. but when I build, I dont feel forced to build especialy to counter it. each team should have some sort of priority or speed control and, if you dont have any of this, I am pretty sure that you can be able to revenge kill it with a scarf, a focus sash, or a priority, or even bulkier pokemon that can resist at least his fighting stab and dont die of a bullet punch.
On the same row as M Luca, M starmie (WITHOUT rain) is, again, hard to deal with, yes, I don't think that asking yourself every turn he is here "What will he click ? since if I don't switch my [insert pokemon neutral/super effective to psychic] he will die, but if he read it my dark dies of a liquidation" (this is the reason why I talked a lot about revenge killing with Lucario, and that I said that it was maybe "to much" for the metagame right now, because I know he is hard to switch into, but since we have more flying/ghost/water/fire than electric and grass type, Lucario is more "managable" than Stramie for me), and, as I just said, there isnt a lot of grass or electric type (even if starmie can ALSO run ice beam/triple axel, so any grass type is just gone, even with sash) so it is a lot more difficult to revenge kill. Yes priority exist. Yes Sucker Punch kingambit take a lot to a aqua jet and need to read to not get killed by it. Yes, there is no thunderclap, Yes shadow sneak ceruledge sash Shadow Sneak can damage and have a faster priority on the second one. And this is, if you keep your focus sash, since, even if its easier to get off rocks, if a M Starmie threath to kill your poor phys def corv by 3hko (2if your got a def drop), because M starmie have flip turn. nice, a super powered mega that can one shot with every move, even on neutral move, have a priority, can run mixed, can pivot, so do like to play arrounds hazards a lot is a good idea ?
Oh wait, I forgot something... Let me introduce you to rain !
Rain is a weather that boost M starmie water move by 1.5. Its not like it didnt already get a x2 boost on his attack, right ?
Try to kill it with classic kingambit set ? nice, you need to kill your own team to get fallen 5 to have a hope at beating it, because it can read you ! Nice ! Im not even sure if a full hp sitrus berry can win this thing king can win this thing.
also, yes there is SOME mons that can deal with it. and guess what ! those mons are :
Samurott Hisui (scarf or not)
Gren (and his mega)
Both Basculerion (scarf adaptability)
Arcaludon (on rain)
Aegislash with King Shield (But remember, you don't one shot, and he have a good special attack, what stop starmie to use HYDRO PUMP just for this guy ?)
and, maybe, MAYBE, if no ice move, Meowscadra Sash, even if Im pretty sure that his attack cant even one shot starmie, I dont have the calc in head and I am not able to do it right now
I think I finished with this guy, now lets talk about Blastoise mega.
Yes, Its strong, yes, You take a truck in the face at each dark pusle. Yes, this guy combined with shed tail is BROKEN. BUT, when shed tail is banned, this guy is still strong. And, after Shell Smash, even a scarf dont outspeed, and no, I dont want to run Sneasler focus sash on every team just for this guy. Also, same as others, he is dealed with priority.
I will maybe not make everyone happy, but I will be sad to lose ONE WHOLE POKEMON, just because one move make him to strong.
So, can we restrict him the access of Shell Smash instead of fully banning him ?
Beside this, There is Palafin. This guy, ah this guy. WHAT. DO. YOU. MEAN. YOU take a stabbed Close Combat from quaqaval at +1 and lives at 60% and can set up bulk up on it (this may be exagerated, but you understand what I mean, it was the same deal as SV OU) and lives the 1v1 because can recover hp with drain push and jet lauching priority into your house ? As said there is to little grass mon viable (M Meganium, Meowscadra, who did I miss again ? )
Ive seen people talking about Espatra, and, without tera, it is fine. yes it have speed boost, yes it have calm mind, but if you are complaning about him with arent you complaning about a 125 base atk speed boost sword dance mon in SV OU ? Ok, maybe the comparaison was to much, because espatra have actual recovery and stored power, but this is a psychic move, there is immunity to it, you can taunt it, you can encore it, you can also stop him before he set up, or just kill it with a priority when he is set up, again the problem with him is really the paring with shed tail
Anyway, on another note, I tested Delphox mega sub nasty plot, and this guy does well ! I hope to see him on the top when the meta stabilize, even if Im scared that he will be too much when the bigger birds are gone.
same for Floette, there is mons that is annoying for him, Glowking, M Eoko, etc, and beside his ability and everything, I am very surprise by the fact that I find this guy not doing to much, but not to bad as well (fun calc, Light Of Ruin with 0 spa one shot kingambit)
Also, I fought a Arcanine Hisui with head smash, but I thought head smash was removed from his move set ?
finaly, to whoever readed it all, I let you know that this is MY opinion, that I am fine that you dont agree with me, and you don't have too, because I know it can be cheese/not a reflect of what is the experience of everyone (I got problem with Blastoise one time, and again, as I said it, it was with shed tail as well, but I know this is not the case of everyone)
If you have any though to add to this big mess of a message, go ahead, same if you have thing you are not agreeing with, I will be happy to talk to you and to try to see what is your throught about it.
have a good day/night !
I mean, if you see a m gengar just read it to not get you trapped, use scarf to revenge kill, or a priority ? and if you don't, why don't you use a berrty to lower his damage or heal yourself, since the lack of item on champion litteraly encourage the use of those items.
for m lucario I can agree, maybe its a little TO much, but I mean, when you build, you want speed control, the only speed item is scarf, and with priority you should be able to deal with it... even if yes, his damage are very overkill, so it become hard to beat. but when I build, I dont feel forced to build especialy to counter it. each team should have some sort of priority or speed control and, if you dont have any of this, I am pretty sure that you can be able to revenge kill it with a scarf, a focus sash, or a priority, or even bulkier pokemon that can resist at least his fighting stab and dont die of a bullet punch.
On the same row as M Luca, M starmie (WITHOUT rain) is, again, hard to deal with, yes, I don't think that asking yourself every turn he is here "What will he click ? since if I don't switch my [insert pokemon neutral/super effective to psychic] he will die, but if he read it my dark dies of a liquidation" (this is the reason why I talked a lot about revenge killing with Lucario, and that I said that it was maybe "to much" for the metagame right now, because I know he is hard to switch into, but since we have more flying/ghost/water/fire than electric and grass type, Lucario is more "managable" than Stramie for me), and, as I just said, there isnt a lot of grass or electric type (even if starmie can ALSO run ice beam/triple axel, so any grass type is just gone, even with sash) so it is a lot more difficult to revenge kill. Yes priority exist. Yes Sucker Punch kingambit take a lot to a aqua jet and need to read to not get killed by it. Yes, there is no thunderclap, Yes shadow sneak ceruledge sash Shadow Sneak can damage and have a faster priority on the second one. And this is, if you keep your focus sash, since, even if its easier to get off rocks, if a M Starmie threath to kill your poor phys def corv by 3hko (2if your got a def drop), because M starmie have flip turn. nice, a super powered mega that can one shot with every move, even on neutral move, have a priority, can run mixed, can pivot, so do like to play arrounds hazards a lot is a good idea ?
Oh wait, I forgot something... Let me introduce you to rain !
Rain is a weather that boost M starmie water move by 1.5. Its not like it didnt already get a x2 boost on his attack, right ?
Try to kill it with classic kingambit set ? nice, you need to kill your own team to get fallen 5 to have a hope at beating it, because it can read you ! Nice ! Im not even sure if a full hp sitrus berry can win this thing king can win this thing.
also, yes there is SOME mons that can deal with it. and guess what ! those mons are :
Samurott Hisui (scarf or not)
Gren (and his mega)
Both Basculerion (scarf adaptability)
Arcaludon (on rain)
Aegislash with King Shield (But remember, you don't one shot, and he have a good special attack, what stop starmie to use HYDRO PUMP just for this guy ?)
and, maybe, MAYBE, if no ice move, Meowscadra Sash, even if Im pretty sure that his attack cant even one shot starmie, I dont have the calc in head and I am not able to do it right now
I think I finished with this guy, now lets talk about Blastoise mega.
Yes, Its strong, yes, You take a truck in the face at each dark pusle. Yes, this guy combined with shed tail is BROKEN. BUT, when shed tail is banned, this guy is still strong. And, after Shell Smash, even a scarf dont outspeed, and no, I dont want to run Sneasler focus sash on every team just for this guy. Also, same as others, he is dealed with priority.
I will maybe not make everyone happy, but I will be sad to lose ONE WHOLE POKEMON, just because one move make him to strong.
So, can we restrict him the access of Shell Smash instead of fully banning him ?
Beside this, There is Palafin. This guy, ah this guy. WHAT. DO. YOU. MEAN. YOU take a stabbed Close Combat from quaqaval at +1 and lives at 60% and can set up bulk up on it (this may be exagerated, but you understand what I mean, it was the same deal as SV OU) and lives the 1v1 because can recover hp with drain push and jet lauching priority into your house ? As said there is to little grass mon viable (M Meganium, Meowscadra, who did I miss again ? )
Ive seen people talking about Espatra, and, without tera, it is fine. yes it have speed boost, yes it have calm mind, but if you are complaning about him with arent you complaning about a 125 base atk speed boost sword dance mon in SV OU ? Ok, maybe the comparaison was to much, because espatra have actual recovery and stored power, but this is a psychic move, there is immunity to it, you can taunt it, you can encore it, you can also stop him before he set up, or just kill it with a priority when he is set up, again the problem with him is really the paring with shed tail
Anyway, on another note, I tested Delphox mega sub nasty plot, and this guy does well ! I hope to see him on the top when the meta stabilize, even if Im scared that he will be too much when the bigger birds are gone.
same for Floette, there is mons that is annoying for him, Glowking, M Eoko, etc, and beside his ability and everything, I am very surprise by the fact that I find this guy not doing to much, but not to bad as well (fun calc, Light Of Ruin with 0 spa one shot kingambit)
Also, I fought a Arcanine Hisui with head smash, but I thought head smash was removed from his move set ?
finaly, to whoever readed it all, I let you know that this is MY opinion, that I am fine that you dont agree with me, and you don't have too, because I know it can be cheese/not a reflect of what is the experience of everyone (I got problem with Blastoise one time, and again, as I said it, it was with shed tail as well, but I know this is not the case of everyone)
If you have any though to add to this big mess of a message, go ahead, same if you have thing you are not agreeing with, I will be happy to talk to you and to try to see what is your throught about it.
have a good day/night !
I agree with this personally. As stated earlier I think with the nerf to the status and rolling back of distribution, sleep is the most balanced it’s ever been. Would love to see it tested at some point
there is chlorophyl venu, but its not 100% accurate (unless grass type make power move 100% accurate ?)
This is called a complex ban, which is against Smogon policy; it would open up a huge can of worms, since there are a large number of ways you could theoretically nerf any given Pokemon. "What if we allowed Zacian-Crowned, but it can't use Swords Dance or any STAB moves?" If Shell Smash Mega Blastoise is broken (it is), then Mega Blastoise itself is broken and should be banned.
1 month isn't too bad then I suppose, hopefully we get some of the more important items back first.
I understand that, but you can't compare this to some box lengendary. what make ZC strong is his typing, his stats, his ability.
you can ban an ability, but since ZC have one, you ban the full mon, but you can't ban a stats, or a typing, because even with using moonblast this guy will be top in OU.
without shell smash, blastoise mega is closer to UU/maybe RU than anything else.
Also, I need to understand but, on OM, there is restriction, isn't that agaisnt the "philosophy" of smogon ? I know that the counsil for OM isn't the same as OU or any main tier, but come on, if people are doing it, its for a reason, and it is not like those complex ban already happends.
Ik there is a suspect right now, but if the problem on regieleki was TB Ice, why nobody want to just not let regieleki use TB ? we all know that Eleki without it is UU/RU this gen. In comparaison, you can't do this with Solgaleo, because, even if not used in Uber, this guy have to much sets, and versatility/utility and is too strong for OU, because he can heal, he can sweep on physical, on special side etc. and even this his stats, and typing its too much, so you would need to complex MULTIPLE moves out of him.
to came back to Champ OU, here with Mega Blastoise, it is only ONE move, only one, and the guy is balanced. I don't know why do you want to get rid of the totality of it, since after is he gonna do what ? rapid spin ?
This explanation is a reason why complex bans are looked down upon, it's too covoluted to give exceptions to certain mons just because "they're not as good without that one thing".
Edit: The only "Restrictions" you mention I can recall so far is in STABmons and that is more justified with that since for example, Flower Trick was universally considered a broken move for physical grass attackers no matter what due to it being a guaranteed crit meaning it can ignore defense boosts. There's nothing complex to that.
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I didnt understand the word covoluted
but I can understand that It can take time to see this, see thats, choose to get rid of this, and not that etc, its just frustrating to lose mid mon just bcs they are to good because of one move
It's truely frustrating but that's a sacrifice we have to make so a whole other can of worms won't open up in the long-run. Mega Blastoise would only stay if other Shell Smash users have proven to be broken too but so far. None of them are nearly as broken as
Blastoise. 
Polteageist is too frail and doesn't have sufficient coverage to handle its counters/checks. 
Torterra also is decent but isn't broken enough thanks to it having checks that are viable by themselves (like 
Corviknight and priority users such as 
Weavile)
is too slow even after a boost and is more preferred as the sun setter in most teams.
In-game you have only to worry about having 3 different items (counting that you almost always want a Mega in your team), in the 6v6 format you have to worry about 5 (almost double the amount) also taking into account that some items that have historically caused problems, such as Bright Powder, King's Rock or Quick Claw will probably get banned
Which forces you to always be running one Scarf, one Lefties, a Pokémon that can make use of Sash, an Unburden or Shell Smash mon for White Herb and then you're just left with Scope Lens, a Type-Boosting item or a Resist Berry (or Lighting Ball if you want to try and run Pikachu)
Not only makes teambuilding extremely restricting, removing form play any pure Stall and HO teams, when some items get added back it will inevitably make some Pokémon mandatory, right now Gliscor is borderline useless, but if Toxic Orb gets added who wouldn't want to run the only mon that can make use of an item that no other mon in the meta can use?
replying to the thread, we know the reason behind the minimal tiering, but i think that some megas do not need discussions.
Mega Blastoise and Mega Eternal Floette you could genuinely make an argument for them to be tested.
Mega Gengar, on the other hand, is a no brainer, with his stats and Shadow Tag... Too much. Not even when we had more options it was balanced.
At least a vote should be held to quickban some megas and the ones not banned, we let them roar for a while to see their power
The problem with sleep in Gen 9 wasn't only with accurate sleep moves. The biggest problem was Pokemon like Darkrai and Iron Valiant with Hypnosis that had enough power and set variety to turn even Hypnosis misses into momentum. The power level of the generation was simply too high to require that level of RNG mitigation in addition to the Gen 9 demons that sleep enabled.
This doesn't mean we should blindly follow in the footsteps of Gen 9, but we must be realistic from both a policy and competitive standpoint. What is the least complex way to enforce Sleep Clause? Ban all sleeping moves. Would allowing sleep moves improve the metagame and make it more competitive? In my opinion, no. Even a nerfed, inaccurate sleep move is still generating free turns based on coin flips landing in your favor.
are the other megas dropping with mobile?
But not everyone shares the same opinions on what’s considered a ‘no brainer’. There is no harm done letting the community witness the work first hand for a few days and then coming to a general consensus/vote after that. It all works itself out but I don’t think the decision needs to be made preemptively. I don’t always agree with every ban on this website but I understand that the community usually comes to an overwhelming conclusion on what is healthy or not. Allowing the brokens for a day or two is harmless. If it was that much of a chore to play I’d simply just avoid the format while the bans work themselves out. If they vote and choose to keep those mons, what then?
I’m not against banning these mons, I’m simply a patient person and would rather let everyone experience the problem first hand rather than joining later on and just always wondering why we never got to try or use certain mons cuz they were pre-banned.
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Also: mega gengar is really easy to revenge kill with sucker punch, and with speed inflation it's not as overwhelming as it used to be. It also doesn't have encore, so it's less polarizing towards hazard setters.
If Gengar still had encore I would agree that banning it would be a no brainer but I do think that the proper course of action for it would be a suspect test. I’ve seen plenty of valid arguments for and against its presence in COU and I think quickbanning it would be a mistake because of that
You had a good point on no brainer, so let me clarify: A No-brainer would be a ban that doesn't even come to the Public Vote - TC handles it before us, because it's understood that those Pokémon would be banned anyway when a public vote came.
Basically we pick what was before Ubers when it was last available and let the Tier Council vote - Either we Quickban it, or we dont take action until first surveys.
I know we mainly do things through Popular Vote but some mons are too broken to stay. We can go with normal vote for some megas down the line like Floette Eternal and Blastoise, but let's stabilish first a suitable meta for a suspect test to happen.
Every argument against complex bans continues to follow a slippery slope fallacy. I'm not sure if I would be in favor of using it for Blastoise, since in my opinion they should be limited to when a pokémon has major benefit to the metagame without that one broken aspect. But there is a very easy safeguard against us using the precedent of a complex ban to start arbitrarily nursing broken pokémon in order to allow them to remain legal, and that's the fact that we are not idiots.
Nobody has seriously suggested we allow zacian but with no stabs or swords dance. Nobody is suggesting that deoxys attack should be legal without psycho boost or superpower or whatever. Unless we changed the policy to just say "complex ban whatever you want lol", we aren't going to do that because pretty much everyone recognizes it would be a bad idea.
If you are against complex bans for another reason, then that is valid, but "if we do this what's to stop us from doing this hyperbolic example" just doesn't work as an argument unless you assume that everyone on both the Smogon councils and among the qualified player base are foolish enough to do that kind of thing. Which I very much do not think is the case. It's just not a good argument for decision making, and there are tiers that are genuinely less competitive because of that policy. I personally think that complex bans should be allowed but only used in extreme circumstances, such as excadrill in generation 5 being needed to manage hazards, and in past generations where preserving key aspects of the metagame becomes a much more important consideration. Neither of those cases open the door to anything. Yeah some 1100s player might suggest it, but nobody is going to take a zacian complex ban as a serious consideration.
I don't think this is the right place to rehash the complex ban argument, but I think it's important to actually consider whether or not an argument is based in realistic possibilities, or if it is based on jumping to an extreme conclusion that we have no evidence would happen if complex bans were to be allowed under limited circumstances.
imo
keep item clause for now, rewards creative building, just hope they add more useful items but enjoying tinkering around with different sets i wouldn't normally use. if more items are added it could help make this format more unique and standout to other formats other than new megas and level 50 w/ weird stat numbers.
keep "sleep clause" (no more than 1 dude asleep) but let us use stuff like yawn
not a fan of espathra, feels like its existence is inflating gambit stocks way too much.
some top end stuff will probably need to be trimmed to move the tier out of just pure offense spam but not sure where id start with that exactly? def need more time but starmie and lucario come to mind off rip. don't have much experience agaisnt floette so not really sure about that one. mega gar seems "ok" right now? def top tier but its not auto winning in any games ive played vs it. toise is also in that same boat
cool tier, will be good if pokemon company doesnt grief it more.
keep item clause for now, rewards creative building, just hope they add more useful items but enjoying tinkering around with different sets i wouldn't normally use. if more items are added it could help make this format more unique and standout to other formats other than new megas and level 50 w/ weird stat numbers.
keep "sleep clause" (no more than 1 dude asleep) but let us use stuff like yawn
not a fan of espathra, feels like its existence is inflating gambit stocks way too much.
some top end stuff will probably need to be trimmed to move the tier out of just pure offense spam but not sure where id start with that exactly? def need more time but starmie and lucario come to mind off rip. don't have much experience agaisnt floette so not really sure about that one. mega gar seems "ok" right now? def top tier but its not auto winning in any games ive played vs it. toise is also in that same boat
cool tier, will be good if pokemon company doesnt grief it more.
With Shed Tail, Moody and evasion moves being banned the meta is surprisingly... Fine? Weirdly, despite being heavily skewed towards offense, this metagame feels more balanced than I originally expected though admittedly brought about by a sort of "broken checks broken" ecosystem.
When I saw that Palafin wasn't banned I had a feeling I'd hate it, but surprisingly I haven't had an issue. When it comes to offensive sets, Water-type moves are its only option and I realise now how much Tera helped it in viability with its broken Bulk Up set. A BST of 650 is insane but you will usually have a check on your team and its priority Jet Punch is nice in this metagame. From my experience, especially in ZA OU, strong priority guys like this are needed to check offensive powerhouses in early metas. Whether this Pokémon should be banned I'm unsure of, likely this seems like the type of Pokémon which will slowly become more and more insufferable as the main strongest Pokémon are out of the question.
This guy sort of holds the tier together it feels like, it is hard not to use him but boy do I hate seeing him on a team. Kingambit is fine, it is just a Pokémon I dislike.
This Pokémon doesn't need to be here, its existence is just to Calm Mind then Stored Power but I also haven't seen it do anything. I've gone against it multiple times and yet it fails to achieve anything, clearly much worse with the absence of Tera. Likely, this is a gimmick at best without Light Clay or Tera and is nothing beyond a little scare. Much like a lot of guys on this list, easily shut down by priority.
Really powerful, I think Gunk Shot is better than Dire Claw with the damage rolls and especially after the nerf. A fun set I recommend is Focus Sash Unburden, allowing you to surprise opponents and outspeed even Choice Scarf users and Swift Swim/Sand Rush/Chlorophyll guys.
My prediction ended up right with Garchomp being the premier Ground-type, it feels hard to use a team without it. I haven't used a defensive set yet though with offensive Soft Sand with the ability to set up Stealth Rocks and Choice Scarf being more appealing. If you played ZA OU, you'll be very familiar with its dominance and despite likely becoming #1 in usage soon enough I won't mind as I'm fond of its presence.
Mega Gengar definitely didn't enjoy the loss of Encore and despite being undoubtedly good, most likely bannable, it isn't that absurd. To be fair, this is likely due to defensive playstyles being bad right now with Shadow Tag's main strengths being shown when setting up or getting a free elimination on a more passive Pokémon.
I HATE this Pokémon in any metagame that it is in, it is just annoying and dishes out absurd damage with its STABs. If I wanted any Mega to be gone right now it would be this one, a Pokémon only being able to be handled due to being frail and slow for an offensive mega (power creep amiright). This thing is incredibly lucky that it resists Sucker Punch or else it would feel a lot more manageable.
This thing is undoubtably insane and I'm realising now that all of these absurdly powerful megas share the same trend of only being bearable due to their weaknesses to priority moves and Choice Scarf users. Hydro Pump/Water Pulse, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere at +2 is enough to OHKO just about anything and I've been combining this with a Light Screen + Reflect Dragapult set to pretty great success.
Am I the only one who hasn't seen this? It should be an insanely powerful threat with a massive Sp.Atk and Speed stat and yet I see more Mega Delphoxes around, likely for the useful Fire-type STAB and guarantee of a good ability. As well as this, the stuff that Mega Alakazam outspeeds compared to Mega Delphox are kind of negligible: with 2 of them being bad Megas, 2 of them being uncommon Megas and Dragapult. With Mega Greninja needing you to land a Focus Blast and Dragapult not even being a confirmed kill with Shadow Ball.
I've always wanted it tried out in a singles metagame though there was never an incentive too but I actually really enjoy Item Clause, it brings a weird sense of diversity and lets me bring items I had never thought of using before and especially on some of the Pokémon I'm using them on. The lack of items too also makes this feel rather creative, it is a really unique thing and everything in this metagame culminates together to be really interesting and fun.
Even when nerfed sleep still feels like an annoying, terrible and uncompetitive mechanic and it isn't really good for the long run. Right now your options for sleepers are limited to like what Venusaur? Which actually sounds really annoying with Chlorophyll and as if it would add absolutely nothing. I think the decision to not try out sleep was a good one the more I think about it, especially for the longevity of the tier. You have to think about it like this, sleep is pretty useless right now and likely won't be used but when considering the longevity of the tier when Pokemon Champions is updated it would just end up being banned anyway if they add Pokémon like Darkrai or Iron Valiant.
Definitely one of the most fun metagames I've ever played with a lot of Pokémon I hate being excluded and Gliscor being nerfed, though likely I wouldn't hate it so much without Tera. Oh yeah, being able to play without Tera is great. Teambuilding feels a little more free than I expected but this is likely to change very soon as the metagame is figured out more, it is only the first day and I can imagine myself in the future questioning as to how I didn't find Palafin way more broken for example.
When I saw that Palafin wasn't banned I had a feeling I'd hate it, but surprisingly I haven't had an issue. When it comes to offensive sets, Water-type moves are its only option and I realise now how much Tera helped it in viability with its broken Bulk Up set. A BST of 650 is insane but you will usually have a check on your team and its priority Jet Punch is nice in this metagame. From my experience, especially in ZA OU, strong priority guys like this are needed to check offensive powerhouses in early metas. Whether this Pokémon should be banned I'm unsure of, likely this seems like the type of Pokémon which will slowly become more and more insufferable as the main strongest Pokémon are out of the question. This guy sort of holds the tier together it feels like, it is hard not to use him but boy do I hate seeing him on a team. Kingambit is fine, it is just a Pokémon I dislike. This Pokémon doesn't need to be here, its existence is just to Calm Mind then Stored Power but I also haven't seen it do anything. I've gone against it multiple times and yet it fails to achieve anything, clearly much worse with the absence of Tera. Likely, this is a gimmick at best without Light Clay or Tera and is nothing beyond a little scare. Much like a lot of guys on this list, easily shut down by priority. Really powerful, I think Gunk Shot is better than Dire Claw with the damage rolls and especially after the nerf. A fun set I recommend is Focus Sash Unburden, allowing you to surprise opponents and outspeed even Choice Scarf users and Swift Swim/Sand Rush/Chlorophyll guys. My prediction ended up right with Garchomp being the premier Ground-type, it feels hard to use a team without it. I haven't used a defensive set yet though with offensive Soft Sand with the ability to set up Stealth Rocks and Choice Scarf being more appealing. If you played ZA OU, you'll be very familiar with its dominance and despite likely becoming #1 in usage soon enough I won't mind as I'm fond of its presence. Mega Gengar definitely didn't enjoy the loss of Encore and despite being undoubtedly good, most likely bannable, it isn't that absurd. To be fair, this is likely due to defensive playstyles being bad right now with Shadow Tag's main strengths being shown when setting up or getting a free elimination on a more passive Pokémon. I HATE this Pokémon in any metagame that it is in, it is just annoying and dishes out absurd damage with its STABs. If I wanted any Mega to be gone right now it would be this one, a Pokémon only being able to be handled due to being frail and slow for an offensive mega (power creep amiright). This thing is incredibly lucky that it resists Sucker Punch or else it would feel a lot more manageable. This thing is undoubtably insane and I'm realising now that all of these absurdly powerful megas share the same trend of only being bearable due to their weaknesses to priority moves and Choice Scarf users. Hydro Pump/Water Pulse, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere at +2 is enough to OHKO just about anything and I've been combining this with a Light Screen + Reflect Dragapult set to pretty great success. Am I the only one who hasn't seen this? It should be an insanely powerful threat with a massive Sp.Atk and Speed stat and yet I see more Mega Delphoxes around, likely for the useful Fire-type STAB and guarantee of a good ability. As well as this, the stuff that Mega Alakazam outspeeds compared to Mega Delphox are kind of negligible: with 2 of them being bad Megas, 2 of them being uncommon Megas and Dragapult. With Mega Greninja needing you to land a Focus Blast and Dragapult not even being a confirmed kill with Shadow Ball. I've always wanted it tried out in a singles metagame though there was never an incentive too but I actually really enjoy Item Clause, it brings a weird sense of diversity and lets me bring items I had never thought of using before and especially on some of the Pokémon I'm using them on. The lack of items too also makes this feel rather creative, it is a really unique thing and everything in this metagame culminates together to be really interesting and fun. Even when nerfed sleep still feels like an annoying, terrible and uncompetitive mechanic and it isn't really good for the long run. Right now your options for sleepers are limited to like what Venusaur? Which actually sounds really annoying with Chlorophyll and as if it would add absolutely nothing. I think the decision to not try out sleep was a good one the more I think about it, especially for the longevity of the tier. You have to think about it like this, sleep is pretty useless right now and likely won't be used but when considering the longevity of the tier when Pokemon Champions is updated it would just end up being banned anyway if they add Pokémon like Darkrai or Iron Valiant. Definitely one of the most fun metagames I've ever played with a lot of Pokémon I hate being excluded and Gliscor being nerfed, though likely I wouldn't hate it so much without Tera. Oh yeah, being able to play without Tera is great. Teambuilding feels a little more free than I expected but this is likely to change very soon as the metagame is figured out more, it is only the first day and I can imagine myself in the future questioning as to how I didn't find Palafin way more broken for example.
In VGC you still build a team of 6. It's not like VGC teams are composed of four actual Pokemon and two throwaway mons you never bring. You do in fact have to worry about giving your entire team usable items. I don't see how VGC is any different from OU in this regard.
You by no means need a Sash user and a White Herb user on every team. Mental Herb, Lum Berry, maybe Sitrus Berry are all pretty solid options. Resist berries are fun to play around with. The lack of creativity is on your end.
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Out of curiosity, let’s say that the main sleep abusers did get put into Champions after a while. What exactly would they abuse with the new sleep mechanics?
Valiant would put a Mon to sleep, then attempt to set up a SD or Calm Mind the next turn… which the opponent now has a 1/3 chance to wake up from immediately, and if not, they guarantee wake up the following turn. So any version of sleep with the nerf gives one free turn, which mons like Valiant generate on switches alone. Doesn’t seem much different to me. Free turns are a big component of 6v6 by default but the new version of sleep seems much less advantageous to me than what it used to be.
Then again, maybe I’m not seeing the whole picture here.. and if not, my apologies.
Valiant would put a Mon to sleep, then attempt to set up a SD or Calm Mind the next turn… which the opponent now has a 1/3 chance to wake up from immediately, and if not, they guarantee wake up the following turn. So any version of sleep with the nerf gives one free turn, which mons like Valiant generate on switches alone. Doesn’t seem much different to me. Free turns are a big component of 6v6 by default but the new version of sleep seems much less advantageous to me than what it used to be.
Then again, maybe I’m not seeing the whole picture here.. and if not, my apologies.