Announcement SM OU Manaphy Suspect Test

[Posho]

Text

Click to collapse...

But most of the examples that you're listing neither have the bulk or durability that Manaphy has and are in fact manageable within regular building structures, meaning that you can offensively check or counter them, whereas Manaphy will usually require less orthodox move choices that are specific for it (i.e Thunder Latias, Clear Smog on Gastro, AV on Kyurem). As much as you insist on making parallels with other powerhouses, what Manaphy does is unique to itself: boosting to +3, sponging attacks and status absorb all packed within one Pokémon, and all it takes is one slip for one of your mons to get nuked.

I understand in principle how offensively maneouvering a threat of such caliber is possible by just overwhelming it through strong attacks and speedy Pokémon that don't allow it any free turns to set-up. Good teambuilding doesn't entail hard stopping threats but to provide your team with enough venues to circumvent its hurdles. A lot of threats are a lot more scary in theory than in practice.

If I may use the samples offenses as examples for this:

Teams like these shouldn't give Manaphy many setting up opportunities because there'a at least one pokémon that will potentially threaten it out in say Kartana, Koko, Thund-T or Kyurem-B, three of which can't exactly come in for free against it first of all. The common denominator for these teams is that Manaphy will mostly attempt to tear through them by abusing the respective rocker of those teams. It does take good prediction to prevent a scenario in which Manaphy TGs then Z waters at least one mon, mostly opening up for the likes of Swampert or Gren to tear the rest of the team.

Then again, there's also the matter of personal building philosophy and I know there isn't really getting through to you in that regard, because I've seen how fierce you have remained in your position, which is respectable. However, all I see is that you don't deem Manaphy unbalanced because offense does have the tools to deal with it, while balanced play-styles have to cope by resorting to specific techs to pull through Mana match-ups (which, to be honest, aren't 100% reliable)

From what I’ve gathered throughout this whole discussion, Manaphy is paying the price for Rain’s popularity and someone has to take the fall for it. If you look at the Smogon power rankings, Manaphy is listed as A-, meaning there are about 20 Pokémon ranked above it, that’s why I hold my current view, and i defend the "No Ban" perspective. In any case, it’s understandable that some feel Rain needs to be penalized somehow, but the consequences are falling on an "innocent party," so to speak. BTW, that’s just my opinion.

Click to collapse...

Manaphy is part of the rain offense backbone, out of the three most used waters (Pert and Ninja) I believe it is the one that isn't as straightfoward in its approach. Manaphy can run a plethora of sets, and through the right combination just tear holes through teams. Meanwhile, Ashgren and Pert, as potent as they are, they see little variation through their sets (and no, nobody runs Protean Gren in rain).

I think tiering decisions shouldn't be based on viability ranks only, but viewing the metagame as a whole. If I may bring this discussion to my territory momentarily, Reuniclus was suspected in BW OU and it wasn't even close to S tier, but the tools the tier provides to it made it obnoxious to deal with (sand and spikes mainly), so similarly to Manaphy, even if the mon itself isn't as self sufficient, the fact that a combination of elements exist for Manaphy to become an absolute beast is enough to warrant attention to it.

Manaphy's wild card element probably make it the most volatile out of the main offensive core. As I said, targetting rain as a whole is probably much more unhealthy for the metagame than targetting one singular mon that can tear holes through teams with the right combination of moves. This will likely make it so Magearna or Tapu Koko take over that spot, meaning rain will likely still remain alive, but more manageable.

Tiering policy doesn't really allow it, but I wish we could also contemplate complex bans, because I believe banning Tail Glow would probably be a much more healthy solution than outright ridding the tier of a Pokémon. Ske mentioned Volcarona, which I believe is another mon that is quite stupid in a lot of generations it is in because of Quiver Dance. And yes, I'm aware that this will lead to a discussion where people will be suggesting banning specific moves to tone down Pokémon. Nonetheless, worth considering.

At the end of the day, this is a suspect test and not an outright sentence. I think in general, for tiers, it is healthy to have these type of discussions and to put into question elements of the tier. As far as I can see, the opinion is quite divided. Polls seem to indicate that a ban will not happen, but then again who knows.

 

[I do meh]

I'm getting sick and tired of people living in this imaginary world where not only is Manaphy somehow easy to revenge kill but even more fantastical is somehow that making it balanced. Manaphy lives pretty much every non super effective move under the sun including some Z ones and has a 100% recovery move with little drawback. Furthermore these so called revenge killers like Tapu Koko and Kartana die to a rain boosted surf after rocks, so how is it any meaningful to even bring up their revenge killing capabilities when they cannot switch in freely is beyond me, especially when Tapu Koko has to be extremely careful about clicking Thunderbolt into a potential Swampert.

Even if Manaphy is somehow this idyllic 30/30/30 glass cannon that can be easily revenge killed, it doesn't do much in tipping the needle against its brokenness because we are talking about a nuke-type role. I mean, Tapu Koko can also one shot Marshadow, Yveltal, and hell even Arceus-Water, meanwhile Kartana can revenge kill even Scarf Kyogrea and while we're at it let's mention how Genesect is not broken because Yard Victini Moth?

Admitting that this tier sucks and building is heavily restricted, or worse even admiting that rain is not balanced, but then voting against a Manaphy ban is a little ridiculous. A Manaphy ban will absolutely nerf rain and it would also allow your water-resists to go further versus rain, even if the real issue is swampert/gren. Maybe a damp rock ban would be better, but it wasn't on the survey so big whoop. I mean it took us since 2019, a whole 7 years of discussion and complaining to even get a suspect not even a ban. At this pace, you'll get the second SM suspect for damp rock or serp in 2033! Make sure to strap in for another 7 years of HO slop, 30-50% rain usage in high level tours of the same 6 mons being spammed, and risking getting mu fished every important SM tour game!

If you think SM sucks currently, or if you think rain is busted, the time to act is now. Ban Manaphy

Click to collapse...

So what Tapu Koko and Kartana can’t switch into surf? Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t revenge killers called revenge killers because they come in after a teammate fainted to get revenge? When you play a more offensive team you often have to sacrifice a mon to let a revenge killer in. Choice scarf Greninja and Ash Greninja can’t switch into Volcarona’s bug buzz. Mega Alakazam can’t switch into Mega Swampert’s stab moves. Choice scarf Landorus can’t switch into Zard Y’s fire move. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for balance players to have to sacrifice one of their multiple fatties to safely get their revenge killer in when offense players have to sacrifice mons all of the time. These types of trades are part of battling.

I also don’t think it’s fair to compare Manaphy to Arcues-Water, Yveltal, Marshadow, Kyogre, and Genesect because Manaphy is a one-trick pony that is only good on a single, highly formulaic team style. Those ubers don’t require you to dedicate a team slot to a mediocre mon like Peliper to be any good. They are much more self sufficient and could be used on a variety of team styles. Furthermore, all of those mons have set versatility which Manaphy lacks. If someone wants to go through the trouble of using Peliper to run the tier’s best wall breaker when other great wall breakers like Kyurem-B, Serperior, and Tapu Lele exist, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to get one guaranteed kill off for their trouble.

 

[Brandonlee1]

I’m not going to write a super long, dedicated post about this, because I realize other players have already done so i'm just going to respond to a few things I saw in the thread.

The problem is taking Manaphy out of the context it forces you into.
Just because something is "broken" only in a specific context doesn't mean it stops being broken; it is generally understood that Manaphy doesn't perform the same way outside of rain, but *in* rain it does, and that is problematic.

Even with revenge killers like Tapu Koko and Kartana, the best you can usually do is force Manaphy out, only to bring in something else that still threatens you like Swampert, Tornadus, etc.
Because guess what? everything is part of a context.

I love it when discussions like this start: "but there's Toxapex," "but there's that Unaware mon," "run Thunder on Latias," "you've got Slowbro and Chansey," "put Assault Vest on something."

The funny thing is, none of those things are actual answers to Manaphy in the metagame; they just show how much pressure the Pokémon puts on your teambuilding process LOL.
And I hope I don't have to explain why none of these things here beat Manaphy; I was actually astounded when I saw that being mentioned.
Does that mean it's impossible to beat Manaphy? No. Impossible to beat Rain? No. It's just not healthy for the meta.

Then there's Greninja. Sure, in the rain, a Choice Specs Hydro Pump or Surf is going to hurt, but guess what? 99% of the time, that bastard is locked into Choice Specs. There are actual POKEMONS that can handle that damn frog; it isn't immune to status effects like Toxic Spikes in the rain, and it has no way to recover HP, and it is much easier to deal with.

Guess what else have all the power but this time without reliable checks and has a move that recovers 100% HP in the rain while immunity to status effects? Exactly.

Removing Manaphy from SM OU won't kill Rain teams; it will just free you from teambuilding constraints and make Rain more balanced overall, since the two are linked.
And at the same time as they say SM is packed with breakers and that Manaphy is just another one, they also claim that if you just ban Manaphy, MSAB and who knows what else will dominate the meta. Can we be consistent here?

And for God's sake, stop citing specific teams, Pokémon, and sets it all just proves how cancerous Manaphy is in the current SM meta.

sorry for the english blame google translate

ops: did someone rly called peliper MEDIOCRE?

 

[I do meh]

The fact that someone got requirements with an av tangrowth in xtrashine is proof that gxe requirement was too low

Click to collapse...

Let me add something, the dude had elec z magearna in the team aswell.

Click to collapse...

No need to be rude :/

Like I said in my post, the team is old. I built it in 2017 back when Zygarde was running around. The team was great for laddering back then and is still decent now. I reached #1 on the ladder with it multiples times in 2018 and 2019 and #2 with it earlier this month.

Tangrowth is underrated in the current meta because it reliably switches into pre evolution Ash Greninja and Mega Swampert. Outside of the rain matchup, it switches into Tapu Koko much better than av Magearna, provides lots of utility with knock off, and catches Heatran by surprise with earthquake on the switch or after it tanks a magma storm.

Gigavolt havoc has its advantages over all-out pummeling, corkscrew crash, and twinkle tackle. It OHKO's Zard Y outside of terrain, allowing Mag to sweep through popular sun teams. It also OHKOS sp def Toxapex and Celesteela in terrain, which allows Magearna to sweep through the rest of many balance teams. Removing Toxapex and Celesteela also allows protean Greninja to tear through the same type of teams.

Sorry for getting off-topic, but I had to defend my creation.

 

[Ske]

I’m not going to write a super long, dedicated post about this, because I realize other players have already done so i'm just going to respond to a few things I saw in the thread.

The problem is taking Manaphy out of the context it forces you into.
Just because something is "broken" only in a specific context doesn't mean it stops being broken; it is generally understood that Manaphy doesn't perform the same way outside of rain, but *in* rain it does, and that is problematic.

Even with revenge killers like Tapu Koko and Kartana, the best you can usually do is force Manaphy out, only to bring in something else that still threatens you like Swampert, Tornadus, etc.
Because guess what? everything is part of a context.

I love it when discussions like this start: "but there's Toxapex," "but there's that Unaware mon," "run Thunder on Latias," "you've got Slowbro and Chansey," "put Assault Vest on something."

The funny thing is, none of those things are actual answers to Manaphy in the metagame; they just show how much pressure the Pokémon puts on your teambuilding process LOL.
And I hope I don't have to explain why none of these things here beat Manaphy; I was actually astounded when I saw that being mentioned.
Does that mean it's impossible to beat Manaphy? No. Impossible to beat Rain? No. It's just not healthy for the meta.

Then there's Greninja. Sure, in the rain, a Choice Specs Hydro Pump or Surf is going to hurt, but guess what? 99% of the time, that bastard is locked into Choice Specs. There are actual POKEMONS that can handle that damn frog; it isn't immune to status effects like Toxic Spikes in the rain, and it has no way to recover HP, and it is much easier to deal with.

Guess what else have all the power but this time without reliable checks and has a move that recovers 100% HP in the rain while immunity to status effects? Exactly.

Removing Manaphy from SM OU won't kill Rain teams; it will just free you from teambuilding constraints and make Rain more balanced overall, since the two are linked.
And at the same time as they say SM is packed with breakers and that Manaphy is just another one, they also claim that if you just ban Manaphy, MSAB and who knows what else will dominate the meta. Can we be consistent here?

And for God's sake, stop citing specific teams, Pokémon, and sets it all just proves how cancerous Manaphy is in the current SM meta.

sorry for the english blame google translate

ops: did someone rly called peliper MEDIOCRE?

Click to collapse...

^
Yeah but I’m saying Manaphy isn’t broken at all Manaphy has a limited number of turns and there are other ways of dealing with Manaphy besides having a hard counter like ttar and yard disrupting rain or Medi fake out or the many other ways you can outplay I think broken is more reserved for Pokemon that give you less outs to outplay like Glare on Zygarde or set up sweepers like Naganadel. All the arguments for rain is that it’s used a lot so Fatter teams arnt as good which is bs because I don’t even think that’s the case I think every playstyle has a place rn people just don’t use everything lol. & I mainly said why are we saying Balance Pokemon like MSab alike is getting buffed/helped by Banning Manaphy when USM OU has so many Pokemon that can’t be Countered like Kyurem B, Taunt Lele, SD Zard X, Mawile ect, these Pokemon show up on multiple team styles while Manaphy is just seen on one team.

 

[c0mp]

I want to start by saying I don't think the reqs should have been reduced to 86 gxe. We need to stop pandering to the masses whenever they feel like something is too hard. I think 88 gxe with 1600 elo is perfectly achievable. Is it easy? No, but a suspect test is not supposed to be easy. I also think that automatic tour reqs are kind of silly. It should not matter that you won two WCOP games; you should be getting the reqs as though you're an average Joe. You want to make a tiering decision? Put in the effort to make a change and get the reqs. This also means that all of the players who won those SPL/WCOP games will be more inclined not to ladder, making the ladder even easier and reqs more obtainable.

I am voting to ban Manaphy. I think Manaphy + Ash Gren + Pert working in tandem is the crux of the problem. If there were an option to ban Drizzle instead, I would go that route, but Manaphy is a good second option. You expend way too many resources attempting to deal with Manaphy to the point where the other two become unbearable after, or vice versa. Sure, you've eliminated the Manaphy at the cost of 90% of your Kyurem-Black's hp, but how are you going to stop the Gren in rain that comes out after from getting the boost?

Yes, with an AV Tangrowth and CM Thunder Mega Latias you can beat rain. Surprise surprise, when you have a lot of dedicated, niche rain answers on a team, you can beat rain. Yes, you can use Mantine, but Mantine is not a great Pokemon, and it doesn't fit on most teams. The argument brings me back to the XY era, when Protean Greninja was being suspected. All you had to do was use Mach Punch Conkeldurr on every team, and your problem was solved. There's also the "stall will become too powerful" argument. I don't think this argument is ever a good one, especially not in SM OU. In my opinion, Stall is at the very bottom of the list of playstyles, and that has nothing to do with Manaphy.

Another thing that bothers me is that it not only stifles you in the builder, but it nauseates you as a viewer. I cannot stand current SM. It is ugly. I have never seen so many rain mirror matches as I have in 2026. Don't know what to load? Just load rain and overload them with water moves and haxy moves that skew the matchup in your favor, like Dark Pulse (Greninja), Waterfall (Pert), Ice Punch (Pert), and Hurricane (Torn). It's very cheap and lame, and the issue is that it often works. It feels way too easy for the rain player, and highly annoying for the person on the receiving end.

Banning Manaphy would undoubtedly allow for more creativity in the builder and breathing room within the tier. People clearly want a change. Yes, it took a while, but why is the passage of time relevant? Look at how long it took to ban DPP Machamp, for instance. If you want change, it is now or never. Who knows how many more years it will take to get the SM community to rise to the occasion again? Do something. Ban Manaphy. Thanks for reading.

 

[Skypenguin]

I got reqs for optics, looks like manually adding me means my account doesn't show up in the page

But this is also why we lowered the requirements. We had people go 38-2, which I think is more than enough to qualify, only reaching 86.x gxe.

Anyway, I think some of these arguments are ridiculously silly. On one hand we have people saying just run AV Kyub which 1. doesn't 6-0 rain off lead like roost kyub does and 2. is a single (niche) set. One liners like this end up reading like they're in favour of a mana ban. Also they make it seem like you have to go out of your way to beat Manaphy. We haven't had as many no-ban posts in this thread so I will put forward some points from the other side.

On the other hand we have some made up statistics about rain being used in 1/3-1/2 of high level games when we literally saw from the previous thread that it's 4.4% with a 40% winrate. People are upset at the idea of being able to mindlessly load rain and get matchup, but this is obviously not the case. Rain sees more use in tours where "laymen" join (sorry) like Stour and WCoP where rain is a familiar team that's easier to pick up and use. Even in these tours you see an increasing gap between the usage stats for Pelipper and Manaphy, as well as in their winrates: stour has the bigger sample size and has Peli at 8% usage/49% WR, Mana at 5% usage/46% WR.

What this seems like to me is an argument against Manaphy from an aesthetic point of view. I go on later about how I think Manaphy is mediocre, but a lot of this seems to boil down to:

1. the tier is filled with HO and weather slop
2. Manaphy might not be the problem but rain easily overwhelms certain teams
3. We need to ban SOMETHING to make a change

To the first point: so what? It's not like there's a single super dominant playstyle in this tier that consistently wins or sees a ton more use than others. This is just disdain for how the tier looks/plays, but why do you get to call 80% of the meta slop? Maybe from my perspective Lando/Mag/Rotom or Chansey passive teams are. If you truly believe all these playstyles are unhealthy, chopping off the weakest head of the hydra is hardly going to do anything. Go after Zard-X in this case - it's the mon that actually restricts fat teams and which makes these faster-paced teams valid.

2. Then don't ban manaphy. Ban something else.
3. This is the most egregious thing I've read in this thread. Don't ban manaphy if you don't think it's broken, ban something else

I honestly think as we're farther removed from gen 7 as a current gen that the overall level of the playerbase and even the ladder (gxe deflation), at least in terms of meta knowledge, has dropped. And perhaps the players who are actually building new teams don't have the consistent results to show up in tours where they see uninspired stuff get reused, but that'd be a player problem. This is definitely conjecture and pretty mean though (I also went negative in spl lol...)

I will use that as a segue into a more subjective part of my post where I contend that Manaphy doesn't warp the meta in a unique way, by talking about Pokemon/movesets rather than its lackluster stats.

Thunder Latias has been brought up multiple times in this thread, but how often do you actually see it?

teams like these have notoriously good matchups into rain even without the Thunder edit on the former. CM Thunder is brought up as a small concession you can make on a team with Latias if it's passive to the point where you can't disrupt a Manaphy sweep - it's not a necessity to beat rain. Also, Thunder is definitely a good move in general anyway; it gets used on Reuni and on ORAS Lati (tbolt anyway), and other than destroying Gren/Celes it helps you RBY your way through Magearna/Reuni/Heatran/Toxapex.

Then we get Mantine mentioned in the same post as Lati which is a big leap. You do not have to try this hard to beat rain, unless the rest of your team is that bad against it.

This sand destroys rain, without having a single Manaphy answer, as long as you can get up a tspike.

Let's consider fat teams for now, as this seems to be the main concern. Ignoring gastro/skarm as well as weather disrupts like sun and sand (all of which pretty much auto-win against rain), you might end up with stuff like this

which is fine into rain (and ass because it's 6-0d by zam/kyub)

which has a proven track record against rain,

which I beat rain with, but you can even tweak the lati or slowbro sets to your liking.

You really have to get to do-nothing territory like bossnite

but even bossnite regularly outplays rain with the combination of CM unaware clef +water absorb + dnite wincon (so it can beat rain but not ice/fire types or taunt lele mdr).

This is the type of stuff you have to be trying to load to actually get bad matchups into Manaphy and like these all get destroyed by stall breakers anyway. I literally beat the relous squad in 8 turns with SD zard and heal bell in the back.

Sure, kart and koko can't switch into Mana but tell me what can switch into Hone Claws Kyub in eterrain, or an unrevealed Lele set, or an unrevealed Zard X/Y, and actually make progress. There are so many other wincons that can also run bulk like Mana, which don't require you to do silly things like running 4 water types and losing to a milquetoast Lop + Zap core.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-455178
Watch this game. Just because you're using a degenerate fat team doesn't mean you get to 6-0 every game you win. Sometimes you have to trade pokemon (as in sack them!) and keep outplaying.

I think we should stop being afraid in the builder and actually take into account what happens in game, and vote no ban. Rain sucks

 

[Astoria]

Manaphy is a mon that feels broken in the builder. Asking all of you to take a step back and watch tournament replays for once.

Spoiler

Neither Rain or Manaphy have seen any usage in Smogon Masters Top Cut including Play-Ins.

Once in Smogon Tour Playoffs:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-958159 traded into Reun

Twice on Rain in SPL:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-904709 got sacked
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-919076 was setup fodder
Non Manaphy Rain has been brought 4 times.

Twice on Rain in WCop:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-941587 sacked into Final Gambit
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-943673 sacked into Final Gambit
Non Manaphy Rain has been brought 10 times.

And this is the mon we want to ban?

Manaphy is used on one single structure that has been spammed for what, 7 years now?
We have to look at the structure as a whole & not just Manaphy.

Rain is broken because the core of Ash-Greninja + Swampert is ridiculous.
Are we sure that banning Manaphy would make much of a difference - would Rain not just adapt (like it already has) by using a different stallbreaker like Taunt Gyarados or something similar?
And would the metagame really improve if we give stall a better matchup into Rain? Rain would still be quite dominant and we would just turn our meta even more into some matchup casino.

Yes - I would even argue that overall Manaphy is very much a net positive for the metagame. Giving Rain a tool against stall is not a bad thing. The problem with Rain is that Ash-Greninja is a tool against everything else.

Manaphy just feels broken because it abuses all the Greninja counters. This is the guy you should run a suspect on because Rain clearly puts it over the top. I have explained this issue at length here.

I am going to vote Do Not Ban on Manaphy.

 

[Maktyum]

I got reqs for optics, looks like manually adding me means my account doesn't show up in the page
View attachment 858921

But this is also why we lowered the requirements. We had people go 38-2, which I think is more than enough to qualify, only reaching 86.x gxe.

Anyway, I think some of these arguments are ridiculously silly. On one hand we have people saying just run AV Kyub which 1. doesn't 6-0 rain off lead like roost kyub does and 2. is a single (niche) set. One liners like this end up reading like they're in favour of a mana ban. Also they make it seem like you have to go out of your way to beat Manaphy. We haven't had as many no-ban posts in this thread so I will put forward some points from the other side.

On the other hand we have some made up statistics about rain being used in 1/3-1/2 of high level games when we literally saw from the previous thread that it's 4.4% with a 40% winrate. People are upset at the idea of being able to mindlessly load rain and get matchup, but this is obviously not the case. Rain sees more use in tours where "laymen" join (sorry) like Stour and WCoP where rain is a familiar team that's easier to pick up and use. Even in these tours you see an increasing gap between the usage stats for Pelipper and Manaphy, as well as in their winrates: stour has the bigger sample size and has Peli at 8% usage/49% WR, Mana at 5% usage/46% WR.

What this seems like to me is an argument against Manaphy from an aesthetic point of view. I go on later about how I think Manaphy is mediocre, but a lot of this seems to boil down to:

1. the tier is filled with HO and weather slop
2. Manaphy might not be the problem but rain easily overwhelms certain teams
3. We need to ban SOMETHING to make a change

Click to collapse...

what made up stats? since 2022 for tournaments (no live tours)

While I agree the first two latias teams have good mus, the french/italian one has seen pretty much no usage recently (and tbh since 2019) because of how hostile the meta can be to rotom double steel, instead people going for gastrodon double steel and that compo has its own problems. Yeah sadly rotom usage has seen a huge drop for years now, and even tho rain is the most used team overall, you can't afford to play the washer only to face sun or charizard x and instead will try to face rain with other tools. It is not that rain has no answers (even tho I kinda think rain has tools for most mus-see my other posts on the other thread), it is that you can't afford easily to slot those answers seeing what awaits in the scout.

That ttar garchomp sand needs good positionning with pex and chomp and you are one flinch away on celesteela to lose to Swampert while praying it is not the legendary power up punch pert lol. Manaphy can set up on celesteela and if you want to prevent with chomp or torna, just hope that a random surf is not launched at you. But I agree that Z dragon and tspikes are putting pressure. Just spoiler you can't easily play this on the ladder because surprise, medilucha is the star there, pick your poison guys ^^.

Let's consider fat teams for now, as this seems to be the main concern. Ignoring gastro/skarm as well as weather disrupts like sun and sand (all of which pretty much auto-win against rain), you might end up with stuff like this

Click to collapse...

I will answer this point by using what I said in that last thread. I don't think my points are that out of reality. Sand basically need to position better to break making it very slippery while sun has a mid record into rain.

your own weather:
Then if rain is what is putting pressure, just remove it and run your own weather. Sand has very limited rain counter plays, at least the standard sand we see most of the time, forcing you to enter and reset weather on risky turns while mons like Tangrowth are passable options at best. Toxapex+Celesteela are one of the best sand structure, solid into most of the tier, but sadly here give free turns to our friend manaphy while Swampert is having fun and just need a flinch or a good eq predict to make the sand castle crumble. Serp can only be a problem with glare but you still have to break past ferro so...It really leaves us with sun that does not even have a mu that free to start with and depends highly on sets. I see countless people saying sun counters rain so easily, "just play sun"...For me sun is neutral at best and never a free counter unless you play the legendary hp electric one. People play sun because it destroys regular lando gear while giving neutral mu in the rest, not because it counters rain.
team on the left won, on the right lose. Rain wins most of the time and those are smpl and spl replays

Click to collapse...

as for the John W team it seems fine on paper but tbh in practice it is not as easy. None of those games are easy wins even after slotting pretty much all the mons good into rain rn. With some mistakes or haxx you can see how on the edge this mu plays out.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-929521?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-2332005557-s24jxt1bn4va0at6mbfea3yoeecvmxlpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-673336
Most of those games playout in the same way, they have to place hazards, keep manaphy out of the game allocating too many resources doing so and losing to a Swampert or a gren.
My opinion is with manaphy gone, there is no way for Swampert to win like that or have that many occasions to haxx fish or just enter and spam attacks that well. The fact that you can trade and tempo with manaphy prevents the rain player to actually trade the Swamp or gren and so keep a fighting chance in the game. Without manaphy, Swampert can't avoid some sort of trade imo and so is much more manageable. I would like to see manaphy gone to alleviate the impact of rain in the builder but also in game, giving the tier some space to breathe. And for the rain enjoyers (one very vocal and scared to lose his tool in this thread) it does not mean rain will disappear or be bad. Gear and Koko variations are very potent and far from unplayable while a wide number of breakers are available for rain (araquanid, gyarados even azu). Finally, I don't think the tier will change drastically without Manaphy, it will just be more enjoyable to have room in the builder and not play into something as punishing as Manaphy can be, and just make sm more cohesive.

I am kinda realistic and kinda expect manaphy to not get voted for a ban at this point but in that case just a few things i would like to add about other solutions presented to nerf rain or just straight up talking about other problematic mons. Those ideas would be catastrophic or most are unjustified or not solid enough. Swampert is surely annoying but it has a lot of answers, it is just that most can’t even fit them in a team without losing to manaphy, because spoiler to answer a mon as fast and powerful as pert under rain only bulky mons (and so most of the time slow) are up for the work. You can’t out offense it, while you have to rely on offense to bloc manaphy…what a brain breaker. Banning pert would just kill rain and even considering the ban is avoiding to see what makes Swampert so hard to answer for modern sm (when cg sm had no problems slotting tang, bulu, rotom and slowbro).
Banning damp rock is again straight up putting rain out of the picture, and the fact some peli are played with specs or scarf does not really place them as a reliable composition since those sets are more for surprise factor than anything. Once you know you don’t have to deal with rain turns and consider that peli can have weird sets now…idk how rain can still exists and i want rain to exists

 

[Skypenguin]

what made up stats? since 2022 for tournaments (no live tours)
View attachment 858988

Click to collapse...

There was some hyperbole in this thread about 30-50% of games having rain :p
I was going off Geniusx's post in which he writes:

Since this stat can be seen as cherrypicking/low sample size I adjusted it to only include top cut of indiv tours (top 64 masters and top 16 stour) starting from 2024 onwards, which includes Stour 36 onwards and Masters II and III. This results in 10 rain brings out of 118 of SM games played which is 4.4% of 224 total teams and a 40% winrate. Including years before 2024 would only make this usage lower.
For sake of clarity I considered any team that included the combination of Pelipper + Swampert to be categorized as rain.

Click to collapse...

If you wanna go back further, I ran the stats for Stour 34-38 Playoffs and Masters 1-3 Top Cut with these replays: https://pokepast.es/7fe5894d7dcaacc7

	Usage	Usage %	Win %
Pelipper	12	3.05%	50.00%
Manaphy	11	2.79%	27.27%

and even the combo: Manaphy / Pelipper | 9 | 2.28% | 33.33%

which pool did you pull your replays from btw?

I will answer this point by using what I said in that last thread. I don't think my points are that out of reality. Sand basically need to position better to break making it very slippery while sun has a mid record into rain.

Click to collapse...

I do agree that Sun still requires outplays into rain (though if people would stop using cress sun offense and just final gambit instead they'd win (also fire blast over flame (also don't mega t1))), though the point you are quoting was about fat teams running weather like these two or the aurella squad without thunder, or celepex lati sands.

Auto-win was an exaggeration, you are right, though I will still posit that rain gets set back hard when it cannot dictate the weather throughout the game. As for standard sand needing to position better this is definitely true - in my eyes sand is almost as much of a fish as rain, but it's not really a tough matchup.

relevant Ruiners 2023 L https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-678445

(https://pokepast.es/7df02f9d6930069e saved you 15 seconds)

As for the J*hn W style losing if you misplay or get haxed, sure I agree. My point was that you can still have an almost even matchup into rain without dedicating any techs to beating it. Part of this track record I mentioned was nuked by Zarel, but I won Seasonal finals with the HP Ground/Twave Lati version vs Mana Rain. The fact that a team whose only knock ferro answer is torn/pex, and whose strongest breakers are uninvested mag/glis can fight back against rain is good enough for me.

It's essentially another passive team dilemma - when I faced dd roost zardx I was even more scared than when I played that rain mu. I.e., mana isn't unique in forcing the player to play without giving up tempo. Zardx already forces the team to give up tspikes/to sack 2 mons anyway, and even if you have tspike, stuff like psyspam esp with CM Lele + CM Zam is a nightmare. Maybe a hot take but idt these teams should be owning anything - I think you're essentially always on the back foot but with more opportunities for skill expression when you load these balances - and they are able to hang on against rain.

In short, I think I'm essentially just rehashing that even if you ignore manaphy in the builder it's not a big deal for most teams compared to X other threats, and the stats I'm pulling from seem to reflect this

 

[Relous]

These were the teams I brought in SPL 12. Long time ago, but Manaphy rain was well established and this was the start of the modern "HO slop".
4/8 of these get completely clapped by Manaphy (vs Well, Tama, Omfuga, Eternal Spirit). None of these teams see usage today anymore, because of course mostly teams that don't have an autolose matchup to rain have survived until today. We still decided to bring these teams, because they seemed good into what we expected and we didn't expect to face rain so it seemed worth it to just ignore the rain matchup and focus on other matchups, because covering for Manaphy rain was restricting. Sure, this may not be the building philosophy other people may have, but for us it really paid off and I think a meta that encourages this is a centralized meta.
This just shows how much more flexibility in the builder you could have, if you ignore Manaphy or equivalent if we ban it. How broken Manaphy is in todays meta and how good modern teams are against it, doesn't really tell us much about the impact on the builder. Dracovish was also only A rank in viability rankings when it was banned, because most teams had Toad and could cover it well (and think this was a pretty uncontroversial ban, Manaphy is of course still more nuanced).

 

[ABR]

I don't fully agree with it but I can sympathize with the sentiment that change is desired and nerfing rain seems worthwhile. The part I more prominently disagree with is the scapegoating of Manaphy as the emblematic component of rain. It is arguably the least important part of the standard 6, and with absolute certainty is less important than Pelipper / Swampert. No one is sitting here complaining about Manaphy screens being the oppressive force, so why not target the actual core components of rain instead? It essentially feels like if this ban goes through the metagame won't actually change in any of the ways people want it to and other options would be more beneficial. Difficult to say while we're in the middle of a Manaphy test but worth thinking about for the long term.

 

[Ruffles]

I don't fully agree with it but I can sympathize with the sentiment that change is desired and nerfing rain seems worthwhile. The part I more prominently disagree with is the scapegoating of Manaphy as the emblematic component of rain. It is arguably the least important part of the standard 6, and with absolute certainty is less important than Pelipper / Swampert. No one is sitting here complaining about Manaphy screens being the oppressive force, so why not target the actual core components of rain instead? It essentially feels like if this ban goes through the metagame won't actually change in any of the ways people want it to and other options would be more beneficial. Difficult to say while we're in the middle of a Manaphy test but worth thinking about for the long term.

Click to collapse...

Because from the previous thread most people are unwilling to suspect or ban swampert or greninja (or even just battle bond). They are valuable outside of rain and extremely essential to rain. People do not want to see rain gutted completely but just nerfed. So obv a drizzle ban would also gut rain and the only other solution that showed similar support to manaphy is damp rock but it wasn’t on the survey, and that also has its own issues with being a significant nerf to rain. Rain would still be valuable, but barely. Meanwhile, a manaphy ban targets the least essential part of rain to keep it viable and strong but nerfing it slightly, enough to make the prep / MU feel better.

I also find what Skype said about rain being bad, with all due respect, quite baffling. Compared to similar metagames (master gens), there is nothing like SM rain whatsoever. I mean, imagine a +8 year old sample team that is extremely well known still be used regularly AND frequently AND in high level tournaments. All you have to do is change 1-3 moves or move some things around. The fact that it even gets frequent SPL usage is insane. Take ORAS for example where there’s probably maybe 1 sample team loaded for the entire SPL, and maybe a handful of known teams, and rarely ever the same team. Meanwhile, Skype himself his last SPL used rain twice. If you truly think a team is bad I don’t think you would load it in spl, much less twice.

Moreover, it’s not only about rain, but general and great restrictions in the builder that manaphy is a big part of. manaphy itself is a greatly constricting factor in the builder that single-handedly invalidates teams like relous points out.

It’s kinda irking the way people are arguing for a no ban. Somehow simultaneously Manaphy’s effect on the tier is negligible but also they’re also extremely against the idea. If you truly think manaphy does little to the tier and it won’t change the tier if we ban it, while there is a big faction wanting manaphy banned, just ban it then? Like why do you care if in your perspective the tier is going to change 0.1%?

It took us 7 years to even get a manaphy suspect. Let’s actually do smth about it. Let’s actually fix and save the tier. Let’s not wait another 7 years. If you don’t think manaphy is the solution, that’s fine, just vote ban for the sake of the community wants and if it doesn’t work we can find another solution later

 

[Skypenguin]

I also find what Skype said about rain being bad, with all due respect, quite baffling. Compared to similar metagames (master gens), there is nothing like SM rain whatsoever. I mean, imagine a +8 year old sample team that is extremely well known still be used regularly AND frequently AND in high level tournaments. All you have to do is change 1-3 moves or move some things around. The fact that it even gets frequent SPL usage is insane. Take ORAS for example where there’s probably maybe 1 sample team loaded for the entire SPL, and maybe a handful of known teams, and rarely ever the same team. Meanwhile, Skype himself his last SPL used rain twice. If you truly think a team is bad I don’t think you would load it in spl, much less twice.

Click to collapse...

Sometimes you take a calculated risk in prep. I think rain is an extremely risky load, and SPL is the land of prep where people bring Manectric and MannatClef. Source: across the 217 tour games I have played since 2024, I have only used Manaphy 4 times, and the standard rain just 3 times.

Here are my usage stats across 2024 circuit (won 3/4 tours + ribbon), 2024-2026 official team tours, live stours, masters, stour playoffs, SMPL, and ADPL.

Usage

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Landorus-Therian   |  135 |  62.21% |  72.59% |
| 2    | Magearna           |  107 |  49.31% |  73.83% |
| 3    | Kartana            |   62 |  28.57% |  80.65% |
| 4    | Heatran            |   51 |  23.50% |  68.63% |
| 5    | Charizard          |   47 |  21.66% |  82.98% |
| 6    | Ferrothorn         |   46 |  21.20% |  73.91% |
| 7    | Tapu Fini          |   46 |  21.20% |  76.09% |
| 8    | Victini            |   40 |  18.43% |  80.00% |
| 9    | Toxapex            |   39 |  17.97% |  79.49% |
| 10   | Tapu Koko          |   35 |  16.13% |  71.43% |
| 11   | Gliscor            |   32 |  14.75% |  81.25% |
| 12   | Tornadus-Therian   |   32 |  14.75% |  71.88% |
| 13   | Kyurem-Black       |   28 |  12.90% |  82.14% |
| 14   | Greninja           |   28 |  12.90% |  67.86% |
| 15   | Serperior          |   28 |  12.90% |  67.86% |
| 16   | Latias             |   26 |  11.98% |  65.38% |
| 17   | Garchomp           |   26 |  11.98% |  73.08% |
| 18   | Cresselia          |   24 |  11.06% |  83.33% |
| 19   | Diancie            |   23 |  10.60% |  82.61% |
| 20   | Rotom-Wash         |   22 |  10.14% |  63.64% |
| 21   | Dragonite          |   22 |  10.14% |  77.27% |
| 22   | Tyranitar          |   21 |   9.68% |  80.95% |
| 23   | Tapu Lele          |   21 |   9.68% |  76.19% |
| 24   | Chansey            |   19 |   8.76% |  73.68% |
| 25   | Skarmory           |   18 |   8.29% |  77.78% |
| 26   | Excadrill          |   18 |   8.29% |  77.78% |
| 27   | Scizor             |   18 |   8.29% |  77.78% |
| 28   | Kommo-o            |   17 |   7.83% |  76.47% |
| 29   | Tapu Bulu          |   14 |   6.45% |  85.71% |
| 30   | Gyarados           |   14 |   6.45% |  78.57% |
| 31   | Clefable           |   12 |   5.53% |  75.00% |
| 32   | Weavile            |   12 |   5.53% |  83.33% |
| 33   | Alakazam           |   12 |   5.53% |  83.33% |
| 34   | Suicune            |   12 |   5.53% |  66.67% |
| 35   | Medicham           |   10 |   4.61% |  90.00% |
| 36   | Gastrodon-East     |    9 |   4.15% |  66.67% |
| 37   | Magnezone          |    9 |   4.15% | 100.00% |
| 38   | Zapdos             |    8 |   3.69% |  75.00% |
| 39   | Slowbro            |    8 |   3.69% |  87.50% |
| 40   | Latios             |    7 |   3.23% |  42.86% |
| 41   | Venusaur           |    7 |   3.23% |  57.14% |
| 42   | Mawile             |    7 |   3.23% |  71.43% |
| 43   | Seismitoad         |    7 |   3.23% | 100.00% |
| 44   | Swampert           |    7 |   3.23% |  71.43% |
| 45   | Ditto              |    6 |   2.76% | 100.00% |
| 46   | Gastrodon          |    6 |   2.76% |  83.33% |
| 47   | Lopunny            |    6 |   2.76% |  66.67% |
| 48   | Pelipper           |    6 |   2.76% |  66.67% |
| 49   | Jirachi            |    5 |   2.30% |  80.00% |
| 50   | Celesteela         |    5 |   2.30% |  80.00% |
| 51   | Volcarona          |    5 |   2.30% | 100.00% |
| 52   | Kyurem             |    5 |   2.30% |  40.00% |
| 53   | Heracross          |    4 |   1.84% |  75.00% |
| 54   | Reuniclus          |    4 |   1.84% | 100.00% |
| 55   | Volcanion          |    4 |   1.84% |  75.00% |
| 56   | Hippowdon          |    4 |   1.84% |  75.00% |
| 57   | Manaphy            |    4 |   1.84% |  50.00% |
| 58   | Necrozma           |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 59   | Pinsir             |    3 |   1.38% |  66.67% |
| 60   | Hawlucha           |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 61   | Araquanid          |    3 |   1.38% | 100.00% |
| 62   | Krookodile         |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 63   | Hoopa-Unbound      |    2 |   0.92% |  50.00% |
| 64   | Froakie            |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 65   | Frogadier          |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 66   | Keldeo-Resolute    |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Slowking           |    2 |   0.92% | 100.00% |
| 68   | Gengar             |    2 |   0.92% | 100.00% |
| 69   | Quagsire           |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 70   | Sableye            |    2 |   0.92% |   0.00% |
| 71   | Sharpedo           |    2 |   0.92% |  50.00% |
| 72   | Marowak-Alola      |    2 |   0.92% | 100.00% |
| 73   | Mantine            |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 74   | Blacephalon        |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Starmie            |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 76   | Aerodactyl         |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 77   | Bronzong           |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 78   | Moltres            |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 79   | Hydreigon          |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 80   | Gallade            |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 81   | Thundurus-Therian  |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 82   | Talonflame         |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Mamoswine          |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Tangrowth          |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Aggron             |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 86   | Muk-Alola          |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 87   | Pyukumuku          |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 88   | Zeraora            |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Crawdaunt          |    1 |   0.46% | 100.00% |
| 90   | Amoonguss          |    1 |   0.46% |   0.00% |

Not once have I ever loaded rain in a live tour or a game I didn't prep for. In the same way I won't blindly load Ahsan's banded ferro + pinsir team (which I won with in SPL) because I don't think it's good, I won't use rain without a very specific reason. The last time the most consistent player of all time, Empo, used Manaphy + rain was in 2022 with Chansey + Weavile, and then in 2019 with Scizor and Zera.

It’s kinda irking the way people are arguing for a no ban. Somehow simultaneously Manaphy’s effect on the tier is negligible but also they’re also extremely against the idea. If you truly think manaphy does little to the tier and it won’t change the tier if we ban it, while there is a big faction wanting manaphy banned, just ban it then? Like why do you care if in your perspective the tier is going to change 0.1%?

It took us 7 years to even get a manaphy suspect. Let’s actually do smth about it. Let’s actually fix and save the tier. Let’s not wait another 7 years. If you don’t think manaphy is the solution, that’s fine, just vote ban for the sake of the community wants and if it doesn’t work we can find another solution later

Click to collapse...

I'll put aside my nitpicking and address this. I think a lot of people are taking a prejudiced approach to tiering simply because of the style of teams they like or dislike. Take Serperior - if it were actually broken, the correct course of action would be to ban it. It is not being spared because it is vital to the structure of HO. Even if all HO teams depended on utility Serp (not close to true btw), we would still be obligated to ban Serperior and let all of those teams crash and burn.

In the case of Manaphy, the question is whether Manaphy itself is sufficiently unhealthy to warrant a ban. No one should care at all whether Rain is still viable after Manaphy gets banned, we should only care about how busted it is.

Therefore, if Manaphy does actually have a negligible impact and does not warp the tier, then there is no reason to ban it, as it is obviously not uniquely broken. Wanting the metagame to change is not the same as saying Manaphy is broken.

This "big faction" is only 35% of players. You ask why I care about Manaphy staying and the tier not changing "0.1%". It's because I do not believe we should be removing Pokemon simply due to a desire for change. There are people who find Magnet Pull to be broken and want it banned even though Zone in gens 7/8 only has ~3% usage; this sounds like a negligible change! But we do not ban Magnet Pull because the majority agree that it is not uncompetitive, even though we could satisfy the faction that wants Zone gone, or even reverse our decision later like you suggest.

Also all love Ruffles but you gotta agree with me that what you wrote here is out of pocket logically lmao.

• The argument that Manaphy is not centralizing enough to be banned is strawmanned into "Manaphy does little"
• then from this you get "it won't change the tier if we ban it", so we should just ban it. How does that follow? The tier wouldn't change if we banned magnezone or diggersby, but we shouldn't ban them
• "If you don’t think [banning] manaphy is the solution, that’s fine, just vote ban"
  

 

[Luigi]

Click to collapse...

mogged

It’s kinda irking the way people are arguing for a no ban. Somehow simultaneously Manaphy’s effect on the tier is negligible but also they’re also extremely against the idea. If you truly think manaphy does little to the tier and it won’t change the tier if we ban it, while there is a big faction wanting manaphy banned, just ban it then? Like why do you care if in your perspective the tier is going to change 0.1%?

It took us 7 years to even get a manaphy suspect. Let’s actually do smth about it. Let’s actually fix and save the tier. Let’s not wait another 7 years. If you don’t think manaphy is the solution, that’s fine, just vote ban for the sake of the community wants and if it doesn’t work we can find another solution later

Click to collapse...

you're too smart to be talking like this.

I had a long post written but I deleted it in favor of just saying that literally all the vocal people on the pro-ban side in the thread that preceded this one except proftreez and brandonlee verbatim say some variation of "Manaphy is pretty bad and rain will keep chugging just fine without it, and suspecting Damp Rock/Swampertite would be more effective" but then somehow got psyop'd into Manaphy being the suspect because it's "less disruptive" even though the SM replay bank tool I just learned about has just informed me that Mega-Swampert has been used a grand total of 0 times on teams without Pelipper in official tournaments going as far back as 2022 I've always been of the opinion that you ban to make the tier better over only banning capital b Broken things (see, DPP Machamp), but the rhetoric here is ridiculous, no one thinks it's broken and not even the people that want to ban it have any argument other than please please please we have to change something.

I think it'd be a shame to squander the momentum that got this suspect off the ground on Manaphy instead of banning either of the 2 things that could have an effect. I will vote no ban on Manaphy, but would gladly vote ban on Damp Rock or Swampertite. Also would rather ban Cresselia and Volcarona even ahead of the rain stuff but it seems i'm alone on that camp.

 

[Maktyum]

even though the SM replay bank tool I just learned about has just informed me that Mega-Swampert has been used a grand total of 0 times on teams without Pelipper in official tournaments

Click to collapse...

I found this on the sm replay bank idk

all this year or so if i am correct, and two are trophy tours with world cup and Masters. Of course swampert is not used as much outside of rain but as you can see it works for those structures.

which pool did you pull your replays from btw?

Click to collapse...

sorry I forgot to answer, it is the sanos replay bank https://sanos-gaming.github.io/Replay-Bank/#gen7ou
I think I selected everything from now to 2022 so trophy tours and circuit tours mainly+Teamballo and ADPL (and other PLs surely). I did not take into account replays before 2022.

 

[Welli0u]

First, I agree with what has already been said about the auto reqs. I think there are way too many of them for this suspect.
This is the first SM OU suspect in almost eight years, so I don't really like that many players can vote without even having to ladder. I'm not against auto reqs completely, but imo it should have been limited to really strong SM results, like SM MVP in SPL/WCoP, top SM points in Smogon Tour or winning the SM Circuit.

About the suspect itself, I will vote BAN, even if I don't think Manaphy was the right target.

For me, Drizzle or Mega Swampert should have been suspected before Manaphy. The main issue right now is Rain, and I think both of these targets would have addressed the problem more directly.

But we don't decide what gets suspected. Manaphy is what we have, and when I look at Manaphy itself, I still think it deserves to be banned.

Most of the arguments have already been made in this thread so I won't repeat everything. Manaphy gives Rain another stupid way to break teams and makes the combination with Mega Swampert and Ash-Greninja even harder to prepare for. There are answers, obviously, but the amount of resources you sometimes need just for this matchup is too much in my opinion.

So even if I would have preferred Drizzle or Swampert, I don't see that as a reason to vote DNB on Manaphy. I can only vote on the Pokémon that is actually being suspected, and for me it is unhealthy enough to go.

My problem is more with the choice of the suspect itself.

It feels a bit like Manaphy was chosen as a compromise because directly going after Drizzle or Mega Swampert was maybe considered too much. But by doing that, there is a real risk that we don't actually solve anything.

Manaphy is obviously part of the problem, but I'm not convinced enough people see it as THE problem for this ban to even happen. And if it doesn't get banned, we basically spent the first SM suspect in almost eight years on something that changes nothing about the current state of Rain.

With Masters starting soon, this is what worries me the most. We had an opportunity to address Rain before another major tournament, and I think the choice of Manaphy has a good chance of leading to no action at all.

So yes, I think the suspect target was wrong. I would have preferred Drizzle or Mega Swampert.

But I still think Manaphy is dumb enough to be banned, and that's what I'm being asked to vote on.

 

[Astoria]

Neither Swampert nor Pelipper are the problem. They are completely fine in SV & SS National Dex for example. Why?

The problem is soley Ash-Greninja which is extremely hard to stop under rain if you don't load Pex/Chansey or other very specific counterplay like Psychic Terrain.
Without Greninja fast setup sweepers like Hawlucha suddenly become threats and balances won't be forced into Chansey or Pex (Manaphy fodder) anymore. Pressuring & removing Pelipper to remove all speed control suddenly becomes a real win condition.

Suspect Ash-Greninja and rain will be balanced instantly.

 

[ABR]

It seems pretty clear the actual object of the suspect is contentious, so why don't we have a 2 part vote with the same voter pool?

1) Vote (within pre-defined rain-related options) on what gets voted on

2) Vote on said thing

Sounds wonky but I'm pretty sure we used to do something similar and I don't love reading "yea I'd rather something else get banned but I'll vote ban just to get any change"

 

[Ske]

It seems pretty clear the actual object of the suspect is contentious, so why don't we have a 2 part vote with the same voter pool?

1) Vote (within pre-defined rain-related options) on what gets voted on

2) Vote on said thing

Sounds wonky but I'm pretty sure we used to do something similar and I don't love reading "yea I'd rather something else get banned but I'll vote ban just to get any change"

Click to collapse...

Yeah Banning just for change is what I feel like this Suspect “could” do which I’m strongly against. Especially in a tier like USM OU where stuff like this is more important. When Magearna was deemed broken a while ago I respect the council decision not to Suspect because now Magearna is a vital defensive cornerstone of SM OU. Unbanning is something that is looked down upon as introducing new power levels doesn’t set right with some players but with a tier a Volatile as USM OU I feel like it could work and have a even positive effect on the Metagame as they can also add defensive & check existing problematic Pokemon & bring fresh life in the tier instead of restricting by Suspecting/Banning something as one dimensional as Manaphy in Rain.

 

[Ruffles]

It seems pretty clear the actual object of the suspect is contentious, so why don't we have a 2 part vote with the same voter pool?

1) Vote (within pre-defined rain-related options) on what gets voted on

2) Vote on said thing

Sounds wonky but I'm pretty sure we used to do something similar and I don't love reading "yea I'd rather something else get banned but I'll vote ban just to get any change"

Click to collapse...

This is an interesting proposition and I like it.

Because I think Manaphy won't have enough support for a ban, but I do think there is enough support for Damp Rock or Swampertite potentially, and in my opinion if it was on the survey, would have garnered more support as well. Ultimately, more people agree that rain is problematic than Manaphy itself being a problem either in the builder or on rain. If we can actually redirect the vote or at least vote on multiple things like ABR suggested, would be nice Star

 

[Star]

This is an interesting proposition and I like it.

Because I think Manaphy won't have enough support for a ban, but I do think there is enough support for Damp Rock or Swampertite potentially, and in my opinion if it was on the survey, would have garnered more support as well. Ultimately, more people agree that rain is problematic than Manaphy itself being a problem either in the builder or on rain. If we can actually redirect the vote or at least vote on multiple things like ABR suggested, would be nice Star

Click to collapse...

Ultimately up to the SM council if we want to pivot but I do have some questions on how exactly it'd work. Would the first vote be something like "Swampertite, Manaphy, Damp Rock, Nothing" and whatever gets a simple majority advances to a real vote of that vs nothing (unless it's nothing in which case gg)? I guess that's possible (kind of like a more extended survey lol). It might not really address the concern that the final vote becomes "something vs nothing" and someone that doesn't really want that something just votes for change anyway (which definitely sucks, ideally everyone votes on the merit of the actual thing). But I guess at least they'd know that ultimately it was the most wanted "something".

edit: Actually I guess this "deciding what to vote on" part is one of the instances where a runoff vote is ok because it's not the final result and that will still require a super majority.

 

[Pais]

I must admit I don't have much experience with SM since I'm mostly a SV main, but since I wanted to try playing Masters this year, I decided to give the tier a try with the upcoming Manaphy suspect. I've mostly used balanced teams to see whether Manaphy is actually as restrictive as people claim, and I don't think Manaphy itself is that restricting. However, I do think the tier would benefit from having Manaphy banned, mainly to prevent SM from turning into an HO slop meta and to give Balanced more fresh air. For this reason, I'll probably vote BAN, although I'm still not 100% sure.

Anyway, I think the tier is really amazing, and I have to admit I've fallen in love with SM. I might agree with the sentiment that 88 GXE was probably a reasonable requirement for this suspect. At least from my experience, the few losses I had were mostly due to my lack of knowledge of the meta, and those extra 2 points of GXE were probably enough to gatekeep people like me who aren't really involved in SM.

Btw, the real cancer of SM seems to be Magearna at least in my opinion. I'm curious to hear other players' thoughts on this mon. It can virtually run any moveset, and it's impossible to cover every possible variation.

 

[Ske]

View attachment 859634

I must admit I don't have much experience with SM since I'm mostly a SV main, but since I wanted to try playing Masters this year, I decided to give the tier a try with the upcoming Manaphy suspect. I've mostly used balanced teams to see whether Manaphy is actually as restrictive as people claim, and I don't think Manaphy itself is that restricting. However, I do think the tier would benefit from having Manaphy banned, mainly to prevent SM from turning into an HO slop meta and to give Balanced more fresh air. For this reason, I'll probably vote BAN, although I'm still not 100% sure.

Anyway, I think the tier is really amazing, and I have to admit I've fallen in love with SM. I might agree with the sentiment that 88 GXE was probably a reasonable requirement for this suspect. At least from my experience, the few losses I had were mostly due to my lack of knowledge of the meta, and those extra 2 points of GXE were probably enough to gatekeep people like me who aren't really involved in SM.

Btw, the real cancer of SM seems to be Magearna at least in my opinion. I'm curious to hear other players' thoughts on this mon. It can virtually run any moveset, and it's impossible to cover every possible variation.

Click to collapse...

Defensive Magearna Counters Itself So We Have Become Accustomed To It

 

[DIYUSI]

Btw, the real cancer of SM seems to be Magearna at least in my opinion. I'm curious to hear other players' thoughts on this mon. It can virtually run any moveset, and it's impossible to cover every possible variation.

Click to collapse...

Funnily enough, I think Magearna is in its most healthy state since a while. Most of its snowball-y sets can be checked with SpeDef sponges such as CM Cresselia, Haze Toxapex, SD Mega Scizor and Twave Chansey. Moreover, Fire-Types are extremely common in the meta (Victini, Zard-X, Heatran, ...) and are very helpful for Magearna as well. We can even mention Excadrill being a nuisance for Magearna's variants lacking Focus Blast. There's more stuff to mention but I think you get the idea that no one complains about Magearna because, honestly, that pokémon is simply not broken. If anything, its defensive variants (especially Twave Berry) are easily the most essential part of SM OU.