I have to say stagnancy in hazard control is a huge problem for making teams that are unique. In the past there felt like a trillion options for defoggers especially but now you’re running tusk, treads, or corv 99% of the time. That combined with the single best spinblocker ever devised make even talonflame look like an appealing option which is never a good sign.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
There is definitely not enough hazard control. I mean, the only reason people started using G-Weezing is because it can Defog in front of Ghold.
I think this pic kinda says everything :
We got like 8 viable mons for hazard control, limiting option while teambuilding. In contrary, Stealth Rock can be very easily incorporated in your team. This is why hazard stack has been and is still so strong. Lack of hazard control is also why HDB are so spammed : on some team, you're better off running the same item on your 6 mons than putting one of the 8 viable mons that can get rid of hazards. This really limits the item metagame.
Anyways, that's what I think about hazard control in the metagame. I'm not really good, so this is probably a bad analysis.
Don't ask how Hazard Control is in Champs OU
(Its exclusively Corv with off/anti meta Exca spinning...)
Thats why we had to quickban Ghold when it dropped, it made Hamu even more broken.
To be honest I don't really see the lack of removal a really big problem. For the most part a lot of these removal options are really viable. Tusk and Treads fit on a wide array of teams, cinderace+hatterene pair as really strong secondary removal options alongside defog corviknight so realistically whenever you build there will probably already be removal on your team. If your team is offensive enough then you can usually rely on a spinner/court change+taunt/hatterene etc as your removal and run few boots users. If you're running a more balanced/bulky team two removal options are usually ok however pokemon sucyh as tusk/treads have ways to bypass the common blockers ghold/pech
No, it's a spot-on analysis.
It's not that the mons available are bad, it's that they're few in number, which puts a damper on team variety. You can easily incorporate Tusk into any team style except stall*, but compared to Gen 8 where you had a full dozen OU mons with the move and another fourteen in UU/UUBL, it's a huge difference. Obviously not all of those mons are viable users (or viable in OU), but it did mean there was vastly more options for your removal.
* I'm sure a good enough team builder could make stall Great Tusk work, but then you'd be building the team around the gimmick and not adding them organically onto the team.
Gen8 OU, much as I love the tier, is not a fair comparison. It’s a tier comparatively lacking in polarization compared to gen9 in terms of threats which makes it easier to build in (compared to 9) and even justify “off meta” picks on some teams. Not to mention, it’s not even THAT many more. Commonly it’s Corviknigjht, Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Landorus-T, Rotom-and Tapu Fini, plus Exca as a spinner. That’s seven common forms of removal. Yes, there are tons of other mons who get Defog. But most of the ones outside the mons I listed are either not viable in gen8 OU or don’t run it.
If we look at Gen9, our anti hazard options are: Great Tusk, Iron Treads, Cinderace, Hatterene, Corviknight, Gweezing. That’s six.
Other gens have had it FAR worse than gen9 when it comes to lacking removal options. All things considered, it’s really not that bad.
I do sympathize that it’s not always the most fun, but we could have it way worse. Hell, early gen9 WAS much worse than now. The fact we’re seeing structures run rock weak mons without boots is a testament to this (some run multiple).
I don't have much of a leg in this race, but it seems like most players are doing fine with the hazard removal options currently available- between temporary options like Cinderace and Hat or spinners like treads. Proactive choices like taunt users also seem strong vs hazard and those are effective on offense.
Based on OLT, it seems like the type of Bootspam teams - which I thought was among the strongest styles - isn't as popular compared to running some of the above forms of hazard control. I think the fact we are seeing a lot of rocks weak mons like Kyurem / Tornadus-T succeed without even running boots may be a testament that the situation isn't as bad as we previously perceived.
From playing, I'm not particularly a fan of hazard metagame in gen 9, but in general this is just an element that is annoying to manage regardless if hazards are easy or difficult to remove. Either you are forced to run hyper specialized sets to deal with un-encumberex defensive cores or feel completely helpless when your slow defogger gets taunted - as examples from other gens. Probably just an element that's better to accept as is.
Based on OLT, it seems like the type of Bootspam teams - which I thought was among the strongest styles - isn't as popular compared to running some of the above forms of hazard control. I think the fact we are seeing a lot of rocks weak mons like Kyurem / Tornadus-T succeed without even running boots may be a testament that the situation isn't as bad as we previously perceived.
From playing, I'm not particularly a fan of hazard metagame in gen 9, but in general this is just an element that is annoying to manage regardless if hazards are easy or difficult to remove. Either you are forced to run hyper specialized sets to deal with un-encumberex defensive cores or feel completely helpless when your slow defogger gets taunted - as examples from other gens. Probably just an element that's better to accept as is.
More variety means more threats/problems to deal with, while the builder is still left with six slots to deal with them all. Low variety is boring and feels stagnant, but high variety leads to volatility and a higher likelihood for far worse matchups and significant disadvantages right from team preview. IMO, it's best to have a solid suite of "keystone" pokemon, that can enable the usage of B-tier mons via both acting as targets and enabling their presence when ran on the same team, while keeping specific threat preparation to a manageable degree - and with how central hazards as a concept are to 6v6 singles as a whole, having that keystone suite be at least partially defined by the mons that play the hazard game makes complete sense to me.
Also, consider the full pools for good hazard control in the 2d gens, before defog could clear and before gen7 gave it to everyone:
gen2: starmie, golem
gen3: starmie, maybe claydol
gen4: starmie
gen5: starmie, tentacruel
...of course, we have more spikes users than ever before, which is definitely its own complication, but I'd still say that we're eating pretty good with eight hazard control mons + HDB existing, all things considered.
Also, consider the full pools for good hazard control in the 2d gens, before defog could clear and before gen7 gave it to everyone:
gen2: starmie, golem
gen3: starmie, maybe claydol
gen4: starmie
gen5: starmie, tentacruel
...of course, we have more spikes users than ever before, which is definitely its own complication, but I'd still say that we're eating pretty good with eight hazard control mons + HDB existing, all things considered.
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Slight correction but Claydol is very much a definite and not a maybe, it’s relevant. Also I think you left out Exca in gen5. But yeah your post is pretty good and I agree with the overall message!
Getting away from the topic of hazard removal for a moment though… with (and correct me if I’m wrong here) OLT going and SPL being in the future, we’re likely to see some metagame shifts whether mons rise up or others fall in usage/viability.
Specifically, I’m curious what are some mons that people think are currently underexplored, and would like to see them used more in the future? Whether they’re mons that are viable but just seen as niche, or mons that get like no usage currently but possibly have a niche that may be worth exploring.
For example I think Ursaluna is an underexplored pokemon and has potential to do more, going beyond simple guts based wallbreaker sets. The stats are there, the move pool is there, and the typing has its uses. I’d be interested to see sets like Bulk Up explored or even AV.
I personally think Fezandipiti is something that could be experimented with more, as a poison special wall and pivot it has a lot to distinguish it from Glowking with great matchups into top threats like Darkrai, Raging Bolt and Kyurem. Beat Up + Toxic Chain is also great for stopping stuff like CM Hatt that can't otherwise be poisoned easily. Of course with balance being the kicked child of SV OU archetypes there's less places for Fez to shine but I really do think this mon has a lot of good tools for the current metagame.
Totally agree on Luna, I think bulky AV sets have a lot of merit as a ghost check and general trader. Would be interesting to see if someone can make that work with Wish support.
Update- I feel the meta has adapted to some of these. I’ve run into a few sub Cress in like the 1600s and when paired with other set up spam, it can burn through trick and encore mons quite quickly. Also max SpA is very dangerous. A +1 Tera fairy moon blast can rip through so many mons. If I’m running balance or BO I try to make sure it has at least trick, encore, and a phasing move.
I feel like I’m in the minority, but I really dislike this Mon. The only way I’ve found to consistently beat the teams it’s on (not necessarily cress itself) in my experience is to run counter HO or get lucky with the set you’re up against. It is certainly not ban worthy by any means, but moreso emblematic of the issues I have with this gen as a whole.
"Man it kinda sucked i barely missed OLT top 8 twice, but hey at least i regained motivation to build and ladder. i haven't made an RMT in a while, maybe its time to get peak with fun again, i wonder how ladder is right no-
oh..."
oh..."
We've all switched to champions OU to use the new megas.
Cresselia is being discussed by the council. That doesn’t mean action is happening right now, but it’s on the radar.
How is Cresselia get from Alright to Very Strong in OU and is it Really that Unhealthy?
Cress has broken out a lot over the last 3-4 months. CM sets are really strong with a couple different options for moves and Teras.
Not really sure I personally favor a ban, but it’s being discussed at the moment.
Okay it Makes Sense Now. Thanks for the Response.
Hey! Talking about Cress/SV as a whole.
I think i've been in a lot of the recent metagame conversation so I figured i'd give my thought.
I personally don't think this makes a lot of sense. Cresselia has been an adaption more depicting of the ruined SV metagame. As one of the few people that actually enjoys sv ou still, cress hasn't been one of my issues.
For those who don't know me I play a lot of ladder but most of my time is just in the builder coming up with new things to try out.
I am active in many servers and talk with a lot of top players about the metagame and other issues with SV.
What Keeps Cress Balanced:
Cress suffers from a few big issues. A lot of them come from it's exploitable and long setup process, as well as that it runs no more then a pool of 7ish moves. Compared to a lot of other annoying mons as well it has a way more predictable movepool.
Cress is in practice, a very one dimensional mon that can be countered and is pretty easy to play around.
Why People Are Using The Wrong Counters And Blaming It On Cress (and how to play around it):
A lot of the issues with Cress stem from people using the wrong mons to defeat it (especially ladder players/players who don't know as much about the meta)
How NOT To Beat Cress
Gking is one of the most common ones. Even with toxic, this is not a real Cress check, as plenty still run lunar blessing, and a decent amount run tera poison. If it's not toxic It will get hard walled and even if it doesn't die to cress, it'll give it the opportunity to go +6
Garg can't check Cress all by itself. Salt cure does too little and will die after enough calm mind boosts.
Roar/Whirlwind mons can beat it early but you need to be able to beat it last mon aswell.
The Takeaway: If you can't out damage Cress, you can't beat it
How TO Beat Cress
Just simply outdamage it.
Ogerpon even without encore can beat it as tera cudgel just does too much
SD Gliscor wins the setup battle
Rillaboom is big monke
Blaze Cinderace
Ceruledge
Iron Crown
Heatran(run speed to hit around 229 and outspeed with taunt)
Kingambit
Ttar + Drill
Psyshock Cress
Scizor
Slow Pivot + Encore Mon
Trick Scarfers: Darkrai, Gholdengo
Is Cress A Puppet?/More Prominent Issues:
Not sure why Cress is being tested when this tier has way bigger issues to deal with currently.
OFFENSE META:
Due to the amount of amazing offense mons in the tier, Cress has seen more usage just because it can easily beat them as they aren't often prepared to deal with it.
KYUREM:
This mon is comically insane. I really am not sure how people aren't waking up to this being busted. This fundamentally changes how you have to play, and build. On top of that it is the best abuser of freeze of all time, and can often just win games with a well timed freeze or multiple! This would be stupid if it happened, but it did months ago in Msousa Vs Eros. One time is a coincidence, but twice isn't. Just two days ago, Swily managed to beat Bbeeaa using stall with 4 freezes With the rise of av and scarf, its extremely difficult to comfortably say what set it is if it were to lead off. Its also such a dumb mon that every bot uses it, because its that strong a bot can use it.
:light_clay::
We've had this debate before. I think it was fine for a long time until SZ used it with Zamazenta to make the best screens setter of all time. Before, we were using Deoxys Speed but this mon is so much bulkier its not even funny. Being able to get up screens on average 3 times per game consistently, while providing a gambit switch is just insane. I believe this should be banned. It also provides a lot of mons that would just be alright, the ability to be fuckin amazing. Specifically, Ceru and Cress and Bolt
For context why Za is 3x better then Deo:
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 136-162 (35 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (without dauntless active btw)
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kingambit:
Just a stupid fuckin mon. We are really talking about banning Cresselia when Kingambit has been cheesing games for the past 4 years. I myself, have become just numb to this mon but when I step back I really see how crazy it is. I do believe that without Gambit, Ghold probably would have to go but honestly that's a 2-1 steal.
Ogerpon Wellspring:
The argument has been made a million times so i'll save all our time. My point is that this mon is much more broken then Cress will ever be at the very least, ban or no ban.
Kingambit Damage Test Vs Fucking Rayquaza
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 195-231 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 181-214 (33.8 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Gatekeeping OU:
Lots of amazing mons are being locked up in Ubers for no real reason
Volcarona suspect got a lot of flack for being considered rushed and rigged which I'm not going to get into
Roaring Moon was practically promised to be tested, but that never happened
Annhilape is only good because of one move which can be quickly solved with a complex ban
Terapagos this mon would be a blessing to the tier honestly. Great anti offense ability, great flex mon, toxic, rocks, and spin in its movepool. The only reason this mon isn't in ou is because of a decade old rule about complex bans. Instead of changing the outdated rule, we are letting terapagos and the meta take the fall for it.
Archaludon this would be an amazing mon for the tier. This could in the complex section, but it would be amazing offensive/defensive utility and gives us more ways to play around Ogerpon W, Gambit and a lot of things.
Solagaleo, even in the ladder, this mon was proved to be a very mediocre mon at best but never received any real attention.
They haven't appeared on any tiering surveys since being banned and it just feels like we are kind of keeping them forgotten in a corner.
Tiering Survey??
It really does just feel like Smogon is just laying SV out to dry. We went from tiering surveys every 3/4 months, to not getting one in over 7 months. If anything, I really hope this post inspires ou council to have another tiering survey soon.
There is more then enough things to put on a tiering survey, that the reason for not having one is lost on me.
ULTIMATUM:
ban Storm Zone from using the builder so that they don't ruin this meta any more (popularizing red card glimm cress and za screens on one team is a good enough reason) oh and they made invented lokix while trying to give aim content lmao even more reason
The Fate Of SV:
In around one year, this will FINALLY no longer be current change. The end of a long, long, era. Now is the time when it will really matter to do the right things with SV. I believe that the fate of SV and Smogon are partially intertwined. With both seeing record lows, I really hope we do something about this. Please take your time to make the right decision.
Message To The Council:
Even though I'm not a tour player, I know what I'm talking about. The hatred of the meta, doesn't stem from sv itself, but just a few parts. When offense is the strongest archetype, it doesn't really give players a whole lot of freedom for things. I really hope you listen to what I have said, not sure If you'll even take time to read this or not. My dms are open, raffebs on discord if that works for you. Feel free to message me for whatever reason.
Conclusion:
I'll be honest, I felt really sad when someone sent me this. This tier needs love more then ever and instead of new news about the big issues, a possible tiering survey or anything, its news that just Cress is being looked into :/. It just feels more disappointing then anything else. I constantly attempt to contribute to all things involving ou over the past few months, and this just feels like a smack in the face. Listen I get it. The gens been going on for way too long, but we can't just give up on it. As I'm writing this, it just feels like saying goodbye for some reason. I honestly have such low hope based on my past experience with sv tiering decisions, but whatever happens happens.
If no one will step up for sv ill do it myself
I think i've been in a lot of the recent metagame conversation so I figured i'd give my thought.
I personally don't think this makes a lot of sense. Cresselia has been an adaption more depicting of the ruined SV metagame. As one of the few people that actually enjoys sv ou still, cress hasn't been one of my issues.
For those who don't know me I play a lot of ladder but most of my time is just in the builder coming up with new things to try out.
I am active in many servers and talk with a lot of top players about the metagame and other issues with SV.
What Keeps Cress Balanced:
Cress suffers from a few big issues. A lot of them come from it's exploitable and long setup process, as well as that it runs no more then a pool of 7ish moves. Compared to a lot of other annoying mons as well it has a way more predictable movepool.
CM
Stored Power
Moonlight
Moonblast
Lunar Blessing
Thunder
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Psyshock
Sub
COMMON TERAS
Fairy
Poison
Electric
Steel
Stored Power
Moonlight
Moonblast
Lunar Blessing
Thunder
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Psyshock
Sub
COMMON TERAS
Fairy
Poison
Electric
Steel
Why People Are Using The Wrong Counters And Blaming It On Cress (and how to play around it):
A lot of the issues with Cress stem from people using the wrong mons to defeat it (especially ladder players/players who don't know as much about the meta)
How NOT To Beat Cress
Gking is one of the most common ones. Even with toxic, this is not a real Cress check, as plenty still run lunar blessing, and a decent amount run tera poison. If it's not toxic It will get hard walled and even if it doesn't die to cress, it'll give it the opportunity to go +6
Garg can't check Cress all by itself. Salt cure does too little and will die after enough calm mind boosts.
Roar/Whirlwind mons can beat it early but you need to be able to beat it last mon aswell.
The Takeaway: If you can't out damage Cress, you can't beat it
How TO Beat Cress
Just simply outdamage it.
Ogerpon even without encore can beat it as tera cudgel just does too much
SD Gliscor wins the setup battle
Rillaboom is big monke
Blaze Cinderace
Ceruledge
Iron Crown
Heatran(run speed to hit around 229 and outspeed with taunt)
Kingambit
Ttar + Drill
Psyshock Cress
Scizor
Slow Pivot + Encore Mon
Trick Scarfers: Darkrai, Gholdengo
Is Cress A Puppet?/More Prominent Issues:
Not sure why Cress is being tested when this tier has way bigger issues to deal with currently.
OFFENSE META:
Due to the amount of amazing offense mons in the tier, Cress has seen more usage just because it can easily beat them as they aren't often prepared to deal with it.
KYUREM:
This mon is comically insane. I really am not sure how people aren't waking up to this being busted. This fundamentally changes how you have to play, and build. On top of that it is the best abuser of freeze of all time, and can often just win games with a well timed freeze or multiple! This would be stupid if it happened, but it did months ago in Msousa Vs Eros. One time is a coincidence, but twice isn't. Just two days ago, Swily managed to beat Bbeeaa using stall with 4 freezes With the rise of av and scarf, its extremely difficult to comfortably say what set it is if it were to lead off. Its also such a dumb mon that every bot uses it, because its that strong a bot can use it.
:light_clay::
We've had this debate before. I think it was fine for a long time until SZ used it with Zamazenta to make the best screens setter of all time. Before, we were using Deoxys Speed but this mon is so much bulkier its not even funny. Being able to get up screens on average 3 times per game consistently, while providing a gambit switch is just insane. I believe this should be banned. It also provides a lot of mons that would just be alright, the ability to be fuckin amazing. Specifically, Ceru and Cress and Bolt
For context why Za is 3x better then Deo:
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 136-162 (35 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (without dauntless active btw)
252 Atk Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Deoxys-Speed: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kingambit:
Just a stupid fuckin mon. We are really talking about banning Cresselia when Kingambit has been cheesing games for the past 4 years. I myself, have become just numb to this mon but when I step back I really see how crazy it is. I do believe that without Gambit, Ghold probably would have to go but honestly that's a 2-1 steal.
Ogerpon Wellspring:
The argument has been made a million times so i'll save all our time. My point is that this mon is much more broken then Cress will ever be at the very least, ban or no ban.
Kingambit Damage Test Vs Fucking Rayquaza
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 195-231 (36.5 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 181-214 (33.8 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Gatekeeping OU:
Lots of amazing mons are being locked up in Ubers for no real reason
Volcarona suspect got a lot of flack for being considered rushed and rigged which I'm not going to get into
Roaring Moon was practically promised to be tested, but that never happened
Annhilape is only good because of one move which can be quickly solved with a complex ban
Terapagos this mon would be a blessing to the tier honestly. Great anti offense ability, great flex mon, toxic, rocks, and spin in its movepool. The only reason this mon isn't in ou is because of a decade old rule about complex bans. Instead of changing the outdated rule, we are letting terapagos and the meta take the fall for it.
Archaludon this would be an amazing mon for the tier. This could in the complex section, but it would be amazing offensive/defensive utility and gives us more ways to play around Ogerpon W, Gambit and a lot of things.
Solagaleo, even in the ladder, this mon was proved to be a very mediocre mon at best but never received any real attention.
They haven't appeared on any tiering surveys since being banned and it just feels like we are kind of keeping them forgotten in a corner.
Tiering Survey??
It really does just feel like Smogon is just laying SV out to dry. We went from tiering surveys every 3/4 months, to not getting one in over 7 months. If anything, I really hope this post inspires ou council to have another tiering survey soon.
There is more then enough things to put on a tiering survey, that the reason for not having one is lost on me.
ULTIMATUM:
ban Storm Zone from using the builder so that they don't ruin this meta any more (popularizing red card glimm cress and za screens on one team is a good enough reason) oh and they made invented lokix while trying to give aim content lmao even more reason
The Fate Of SV:
In around one year, this will FINALLY no longer be current change. The end of a long, long, era. Now is the time when it will really matter to do the right things with SV. I believe that the fate of SV and Smogon are partially intertwined. With both seeing record lows, I really hope we do something about this. Please take your time to make the right decision.
Message To The Council:
Even though I'm not a tour player, I know what I'm talking about. The hatred of the meta, doesn't stem from sv itself, but just a few parts. When offense is the strongest archetype, it doesn't really give players a whole lot of freedom for things. I really hope you listen to what I have said, not sure If you'll even take time to read this or not. My dms are open, raffebs on discord if that works for you. Feel free to message me for whatever reason.
Conclusion:
I'll be honest, I felt really sad when someone sent me this. This tier needs love more then ever and instead of new news about the big issues, a possible tiering survey or anything, its news that just Cress is being looked into :/. It just feels more disappointing then anything else. I constantly attempt to contribute to all things involving ou over the past few months, and this just feels like a smack in the face. Listen I get it. The gens been going on for way too long, but we can't just give up on it. As I'm writing this, it just feels like saying goodbye for some reason. I honestly have such low hope based on my past experience with sv tiering decisions, but whatever happens happens.
If no one will step up for sv ill do it myself
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ok I’ll bite. what are the “big issues” that haven’t already been tested or surveyed many times before? You say at the start of the post you still like SV, but then end the post saying it’s insulting we aren’t acting on other things instead of discussing Creas. This is a contradiction.
Cress, Screens, Ceruledge are all fair game to a degree as they haven’t had much discussion or a suspect, and Cress stands out the most per council discussion so far. And that’s not even committing to action yet. Wellspring has been surveyed frequently, Kyurem has multiple failed suspects, dnite isn’t close to broken rn, Gambit stayed OU before via suspect and isn’t at its peak, Zama is plenty balanced, etc. I don’t even think I favor a ban on anything now, but this reaction to a transparent “hey, we are discussing X” is a bit silly
Finally, the counterplay you list has a lot of things that aren’t true answers or lose after a boost or two, which are easy to get in game context. Would really reconsider some things you list mid-post.
finch revived the discussion thread
anyways, personally I don’t think anything needs to be tested, sv is in a fine state, maybe light clay could be tested but kyu, pon, gambit, ceru, cress, etc are not mons I consider ban worthy
wellspring for example has a common weakness to hazards and u-turn which limits its turns more often then expected, then you have defensive checks like pech, zama, and dnite who are commonplace in gen 9
anyways, personally I don’t think anything needs to be tested, sv is in a fine state, maybe light clay could be tested but kyu, pon, gambit, ceru, cress, etc are not mons I consider ban worthy
wellspring for example has a common weakness to hazards and u-turn which limits its turns more often then expected, then you have defensive checks like pech, zama, and dnite who are commonplace in gen 9
idk what you have to say it like that lol. im just giving my thoughts. if you dont feel like discussing no worries i understand it.
This is not a contradiction. I am saying that I love sv, and im also saying its kind of sad (because i care for the metagame alot) that the first update in a while is just about and nothing else. ban or not ban cress i still will keep playing no change. ive played through the ups and downs.
If it were to actually be a contradiction, i would say that i love sv, and then end it saying that i dont care what you do since i hate it anyways
I think your kind of missing my point. If you read through, i said in the puppet section that there have been new meta developments that are leading to the need for a new test/survey, and i said in the tiering survery?? section, that we havent had any surveys in a long time and since then, there has been a lot of reason for things to have changed. For context, it was over 2 months before tb ban. I never stated that these big issues were not tested, but because of the length of time since last survey they should be looked at again.
not exactly sure what you been by fair game, but im pretty sure you mean like, too be tested in the future.
wellspring dnite and za are totally fine and non issues. I see the issue more in the screens za, but thats separate. I think weve become so numb to gambit, i would love to see a suspect with it removed from the meta just to see how it feels without gambit.
if you let most things get two boosts they are gonna be hard to counter
im curious which you find to be silly. i would say, even at one boost that every single one of those mons can at the very least, trade into cresselia.
A lot of this post was clearly not just about cresselia. I mentioned lots of different things and other general complaints.
i see you mentioned, the how to counter, other strong mons section and conclusion but what about the other parts? What about the ubers locked away, lack of tiering surveys, and the overall dislike of sv? Whenever we talk about sv ou its always just about bans, why not drops to ou from ubers??
i simply responded to what i think about sv, to try and give my opinions to anyone reading it. not exactly sure why its silly, but if thats how you see it, thats a bummer. just speakin my opinion
I'm tired I did a lot of writing lmfao. I'm going to bed. Have a good rest of your day g
Is Cresselia being looked at specifically on the strength of its Stored Power sets or just CM in general with other combos like Boltbeam / Psyshock + MB etc.
This feels like a full circle moment. I remember people complaining about this mon back in 2023 before they eventually stopped and I never understood the reason why. I suppose it was latias taking the role as a screens cheeser option.
This feels like a full circle moment. I remember people complaining about this mon back in 2023 before they eventually stopped and I never understood the reason why. I suppose it was latias taking the role as a screens cheeser option.
I quite literally quoted your phrasing in what you’re replying to here. You “say it like that lol” — not me, so this just makes no sense.
You referred to “other annoying Pokemon” and “issues” multiple times at the start of your post in reference to the metagame. Now you’re being called on it. Maybe you misspoke — happens, innocent mistake. Maybe you realized it contradicted the thesis to your post. I don’t know. I can only engage with the content presented. The post contradicts itself as it was written. That’s non-negotiable.
If you think that’s the only possible way to contradict yourself, then don’t know what to say beyond “holy moly, what goalpost movement”
Many top players publicly stated disapproval of tiering surveys due to their inability to tackle nuance in tiering and their repetition diminishing their effectiveness. This has been covered in numerous prior posts. Much like I am in reading and engaging with your post, I try my best to understand what everyone else is saying as well. That’s my job.
This is a misunderstanding of the suspect and banning process. Suspects aren’t a litmus test of “is the perceived metagame better with or without X suspect”, but rather if X or Y is broken. You never do a suspect without the target Pokemon. The metagame if something is removed will evolve far-and-away beyond just the ripples you see in a week or two over the ladder. It has been this way for generations and this same type of request has been addressed the same way all generation.
So your main gripe is something incompatible with Smogon tiering policy as a whole and you agree on all other accounts, so I just don’t really get where we are going here. But moving on…
“Most things” aren’t Cress. It has ridiculous bulk and defensive prowess. This misses the whole point of the Pokemon.if you let most things get two boosts they are gonna be hard to counter
SD Gliscor isn’t an answer at all, Iron Crown isn’t an answer at all and outright loses to multiple variants, Cress frequently runs more speed than 229 Heatran, Ogerpon alone is never solving Cresselia, Sciz loses to Electric Cress, and then you listed Cresselia itself, which is pretty funny. It was a pretty silly list. I think even you can admit that if you go through the scenarios.
Already addressed surveys both here and in multiple prior posts, but we have discussed Ubers numerous times and the support isn’t close. Due diligence has been done across the board pretty much. There’s obviously some late Gen inertia, but we have already had way more retest traction this generation than the last few combined and there aren’t many good prospects there.
Not even sure what you mean by “overall dislike of sv” either. Like if you want surveys so much, pretty much every survey since the major tiering action earlier this generation showed SV to be favorable. This is also another contradiction with the first half of you post, by the way. But regardless, people are entitled to feel how they want, we still cannot just ban or unban things for the sake of change if they aren’t banwortby or unban worthy. You don’t just do things for the sake of trying them out. There has to be probable cause.
Likewise. Appreciate your passion for the metagame and insight, but I think you really should take a look back at some of those points.
The whole Pokemon. Various sets. Multiple Tera options. Etc
