CAP 38 - Part 2 - Concept Assessment 2

[bumboclaat]

For what it is worth the ND Ubers part isn't really reflective of the current metagame. Some of these Pokémon don't run Toxic at all while others do run it sometimes, but less commonly. I didn't include Chansey because it runs Seismic Toss | Aromatherapy | Softboiled | Confide. Cresselia runs it I guess, but is a Trick Room exclusive Pokémon and that archetype is fringe viable. Same with Mega Tyranitar as it is only used on one outdated stall team.

Toxic is a big part of my game

(U-turn | Roost | Icy Wind | Acid Spray) Yeah, it leverages its typing + movepool to spread Toxic via Toxic Chain.
(Defog | Dragon Tail | Toxic | Rest) This is the only set it has viably ran all generation. Yeah you're a fatty with Pressure, but Toxic is very important.
(Flip Turn | Wish | Toxic | Protect) You sometimes see Knock Off over Protect, but Toxic is important to Alomomola. Primal Groudon blocks Flip Turn and it can stall it out while having o ther targets.


Toxic Exists

- Only used on defensive sets and defensive Arceus formes outside of Arceus-Dark on stall were pretty much extinct for a while. Recently defensive sets have seen a fair bit of use on offenses with Stealth Rock | Magic Coat | Toxic or Recover | Judgment or Foul Play. A status move is used on pretty much every defensive Arceus set, but those also are not very common. It isn't used on setup sets.
It has only ever seen meaningful use on defensive sets and those are pretty uncommon at the moment. They're still always on stall, but used to be common on balance and bulky offence as well. The metagame has been quite unkind to defensive sets for a myriad of reasons, but Eternatus outstide of stall these days mostly runs offensive sets.
Defensive Yveltal exists, but barely and can't always afford it anyways. It is quite common on Choice Scarf Yveltal, but it is a 'this mon only clicks three moves (Defog | U-Turn | Foul Play) in most games and it is often the best option in that last slot out of a couple of contenders. It is useful, will be clicked every now and then, but isn't particularly common.
There isn't a de facto status for Giratina-O to use and different players will tell you which one they think is the best. I'm not a fan of Toxic personally, but there are folks who are. Regardless, it isn't something you should always expect when you see Giratina-O at preview.
Toxic sees a fair bit of tournament use as the utility move on Coil sets. Zygarde choses between Dragon Tail, Glare, and Toxic and all have their distinct benefits. This list isn't in order, but you'd expect to see Toxic on Zygarde more than Arceus-Ground for example.
Toxic is a mainstay on the defensive set which is also the most common set. Furthermore, Toxic is an important component of Primal Groudon.

I guess
The defensive set is incredibly rare outside of stall and often uses Brave Bird over Toxic.
These both use Mortal Spin and I guess Glimmora has Toxic Debris. Idk if leads really count.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

you know, i just thought of something. we've talked at length about our eternatus analogue having a single strong permanent progress tool like toxic (but maybe not actually toxic), and having an immunity to a common residual-damage or permanent-progress interaction in its environment, but i have to wonder: how much a part of eternatus is the fact that its big permanent progress tool is also the big thing it's immune to? if we give our guy a toxic equivalent and a toxic-immunity equivalent, is it important that the immunity be specifically to our own progress tool? would we lose anything significant by departing from this relationship between the two aspects?

 

[Guingil]

• With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types. I'm curious what the community thinks on this matter.

Many brilliant points in the thread about the interplay between the three types (Dragon/Poison/Fire), but I’d like to touch on the 2-move subsets. I had previously opined that a STAB + coverage option should not be so strong that dropping the other STAB becomes a no-brainer (for example, how Kyurem and Great Tusk run Ground + Ice on sets). I have somewhat revised this opinion upon being made aware of the fact of how great Dragon + Fire is in Ubers. Good 2-move coverage enables a lot of defensive and utility sets by preventing easy walling (again, see SubTect Kyurem with Freeze Dry + Earth Power). For sure, on Eternatus sets you miss out on uniquely enabling Poison-type coverage to deal with Fairies, which are normally natively bulky Pokémon like Arceus-Fairy or bulky Pokémon commonly Terastallized into the type, but that is more a lost bonus than a foundation that is shaken. The foundation itself being strong but not-too-strong seems like a balance to achieve here, especially if we have to make space for limited utility. Won’t go into too much detail here, as I want to have things to say in the Typing stage, but continuing in the same theme of enabling some of the less overt aspects of the mon…

• Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?

I’ll go against the grain of “going against the grain” here and reemphasize some aspects of this immunity while agreeing that it does not need to be a Poison immunity specifically.

• Poisoning immunity is common on CM/BU setup sweepers

Given that Toxic ramping is one of the few ways to deal with Pokémon that can get out of control via boosts, poisoning immunity is one of the most prized things to have as a slow-setup sweeper. Off the top of my head, Tera Poison/Steel (on stuff like , , ), Magic Guard () or Magic Bounce (), Taunt (on BU ), status healing options (Lunar Blessing on or Jungle Healing on , which helps with burns too), and just plain ol’ Poison typing () are common options to enable these Pokémon to do their job. Even Covert Cloak is relevant here. The caveat here is that Eternatus is explicitly being denied such options, yet it runs unconventional setup like Meteor Beam and Cosmic Power anyway. In fact, some have mentioned that it is one of the Pokémon most likely to execute a second, raw Meteor Beam, as well as one of the few things that can make Cosmic Power without Stored Power work. I believe that the role of the Poison immunity in this is not insignificant, and thus maintaining some sort of resemblance to it through one of our stages (typing/ability/movepool) is pro-concept.

• The number of Pokémon that run Toxic isn’t as important as the few key checks

My line of argument here basically boils down to being commonplace =/= having impact. Yes, Ubers Pokémon run it more, but it is not as if that makes Toxic any less strong on the few things that do run it. It is less likely that you will run into them, but a lot of teambuilding is accounting for not having insta-lose matchups in these unlikely scenarios (take, for example, how building to not lose to Cawmodore is a thing). In fact, flexing into a specific defensive bias (for example, physical on Gliscor/Snaelstrom) and running Toxic as a stopgap measure to common setup demons like Revenankh and Hemogoblin is not uncommon. Conversely, running Tera Poison is also a second-tier counterplay option, after Tera Fire, on these threats as well as stuff like Iron Defense Zamazenta. One might say that the abundance of status-absorbing teammates in the tier might make the immunity less valuable, as you can simply switch to them, but it is important to remember how some of these unconventional sets on Eternatus rely on staying in and accumulating boosts. Thus, switching out does have some cost there, which we shouldn’t ignore. Which runs into this question…

• How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?

Pretty darn defining for Meteor Beam, quite less for Cosmic Power, although I believe the general line of questioning around unconventional/awkward/limited setup is interesting enough to merit further exploration through other options. I’ve just gone through how some of Eternatus’ traits help it in uniquely enacting these setup modes, and it is helpful to understand the value of other things in its kit through these fixed lenses. Meteor Beam also has an element of being horrible coverage for Dragon/Poison, adding to the tension regarding opportunity cost on Eternatus. But both these moves are more illustrative than prescriptive: we do not have to be limited to them, or even any move for that matter (Berserk, for example, was brought up as unconventional setup), to translate this idea into the OU/CAP metagame.

Also, of course, we need setup and just low enough power to desire it/Life Orb to translate Eternatus.

I guess all of this plays back into the general theme of valuing the defensive, utility, and otherwise unconventional traits of Eternatus. I have asked sources (aka Bumboclaat) and been informed that defensive sets on Eternatus are at an all-time low (but perhaps stable); however, this seems not to have always been the case. I think putting some weight on these sets, which ultimately still possess much less utility than modern giants with all of hazards/Knock Off/pivoting, can lead us to the very interesting question of: why did utility sets work on Eternatus despite its limited ways of using them? Yes, the power of Toxic in Ubers is a factor, maybe the major one, along with Ubers being a low-PP metagame, but this does not exclude its other tools from playing a role. Forcing utility through options like Draco Meteor + Eject Pack pivoting (which also apparently made Eternatus a Knock absorber later?) is a brilliant conceit that deserves some appreciation and perhaps translation.

 

[FaelisongTalim]

diwa lightning round thought vomit. a thomit if you will

With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types. I'm curious what the community thinks on this matter (and our Typing Leader, @AzothBend ).

I think the three-move type coverage is very important within the context of the set variety that Eternatus poses, especially with regards to offensive sets. It is true that Eternatus still runs Fire type moves on its main set, and can run all three moves or it will have to settle for dropping a STAB option (usually the Poison) for more utility-focused sets.

Is there any process-level system that can enforce a 'power budget'?. This has always been a vague concept in discussion. Personally, I'm not convinced there's anything to be done, and we just let it ride until Stats (but this puts a lot of the burden on Stats submitters).

In the spirit of Eternatus, I think a "less is more" idea is best to pursue. I don't know if there is anything that would be put through on a process-level, but I strongly believe that restraint is the key to designing Eternatus. Eternatus excels despite its very "standard" traits, with an Ability that is Solidly Okay, a movepool that is Solidly Okay and a typing that is Solidly Okay. It's a lot of Solidly Okay elements, but they come together as an eclectic bunch that creates a strong presence.

How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?

I'd say very important -- we can look to other pokemon such as Glimmora which can be run for utility purposes but can bring a powerful back-pocket element of Meteor Beam to start taking names, but it has to be deployed very carefully. I think a one-time use move such as Meteor Beam or Electro Shot is very important to the identity since it does effectively force the item to be Power Herb which can impede on Life Orb or Leftovers sets, and moreover makes switching in raw more of a gamble in the case of Knock Off. I do agree with earlier thread sentiments that Eternatus being unique in being able to actually use Power Herb-less Meteor Beam an interesting aspect to replicate. Cosmic Power I could honestly do without, but I don't think this would be anything oppressive to add (mostly because the idea of an Obliteryx that copies Cosmic Power boosts is like the funniest thing possible)

Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?
Anything else I missed (I feel like I had more to ask but I forgot it).

There sure is a lot of Toxic in CAP with Gliscor and Snael and Glimm and other goobers. In general though, I don't think Toxic immunity is necessarily important, especially if this is a mon that could afford to switch into Scald and protect itself with a Burn like Eternatus could. Paralysis remains a powerful tool to slow down a CAP38 with a stat spread similar to Eternatus because of its decently well-placed speed tier and it should remain powerful to slow it down (Although in the case that Electro Shot becomes the move of choice, it'd be REALLY funny to see 38 start running Tera Electric)


Also from the earlier bits of discussion I missed, I do strongly believe the customizability of Eternatus should also be a strong consideration with regards to EV training. I also don't think Toxic is really necessary to implement with all of the Toxic absorbers in CAP. To me, Eternatus is a Pokemon that should have an eclectic emergence of a bunch of small, ordinary things all coming together to make something truly wonderful. Keep the 'mon honest, but retain the customizability. okay byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Spammernoob]

Roughly summarized community's thoughts here. People mostly agreed, except minor disagreement on the topic of Toxic.

• With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing?
  • I don't think I saw any pushback against the plan to discuss 3-type coverage alongside typing submissions, and some agreement on this point, so we will move ahead with it.
• Is there any process-level system that can enforce a 'power budget'?.
  • I think community agrees that we just wing it and figure out the relevant calcs later (in stats).
• How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?
  • Most people seem to agree that Meteor Beam is vital, and Cosmic Power is secondary. I added clarification to the "Limited setup options" attribute to stipulate we have an option analogous to Meteor Beam, though the exact implementation will be decided later.
• Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?
  • There has been some argument about how relevant Toxic immunity is in particular. In my previous post, I noted that Toxic immunity specifically enabled Cosmic Power sets, and there should be more flexibility in this attribute should that set be deemed not central to Eternatus' identity. Therefore, I am amending this attribute to the following: "Is resilient to a relevant form of passive damage." If Cosmic Power gamers are out there, they can Tera Steel or Poison if needed. I noted my preference against focusing on hazards here, but I'll leave it up to the community during typing and ability to figure this out.

The OP has been updated with this change, and I'm happy with what we ended up with. I think this was an overall success in giving some direction for the future stages. Finally, I'll list out when I think each attribute should be addressed, as a rough guide for future stages.

Relevant attributes by Stage

Typing

• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo
• Balanced Offensive / Defensive typing
• Resilience against a relevant form of passive damage

Ability

• Resilience against a relevant form of passive damage (if not addressed during Typing)

Movepool

• Access to powerful permanent progress tool
• Access to reliable recovery (via moves)
• Limited setup options (Meteor Beam analogue)
• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)

Stats

• Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier.
• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets
• Above-average all-around stats

Unsurprisingly ability stage does not need to solve many of our problems if our typing addresses passive damage. I am partial to Shock's suggestion for some niche defensive utility ability, though ultimately that is up to the community and Ability SL.

Hopefully, this stage has felt fun and productive to all participants. I'll be handing things off to AzothBend for Typing discussion now. I'll leave this thread up for 2 more hours for people to get any last thoughts in.