CAP 38 - Part 2 - Concept Assessment 2

[Spammernoob]

After some more rounds of voting, we have chosen our Uber: Eternatus.

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.

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As mentioned in Concept Assessment 1, the goal of this stage is to determine what the essence of Eternatus' playstyle and niche is, and provide strong direction for future stages.

The structure of the stage will be as follows: I will list out a variety of attributes of Eternatus. These can be properties of the Pokemon, relevant matchups in the meta, common teambuilding structures with the Pokemon, or anything else you think is relevant. Comments can propose the following (with justification):

• Add an additional attribute
• Raise or lower the importance of an attribute
• Abstract an attribute (eg. "Uses Calm Mind" -> "Non-Speed-boosting setup")
• Translate an attribute to CAP context (eg. "Strong against priority sweepers" -> "Beats Hemogoblin and Revenankh")
• Add additional notes to an attribute
• Combine some attributes

By the end of this stage, we will have various attributes that are sorted into 3 categories: Vital to implement, Good Direction, and Unnecessary. I think this should give us a good idea of how we want to proceed in future stages. Of course, this isn't binding, but going against things decided in this stage should have ample justification.

If there's anything relevant to this discussion that is not covered by this structure, ping me on Discord or here and we can figure something out.

Here is a preliminary list of attributes of Eternatus, compiled from personal experience, as well as discussion during CA1. They will start out all as "Good Direction", and I'll update as discussion progresses:

Eternatus Initial Attributes

• Above-average all-around stats
• Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier.
• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets
• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic)
• Access to 50% Recovery
• Limited setup options
• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)
• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon)
• Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific)
• Typing provides immunity to Toxic
• Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility
• Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (is this true?)

Eternatus Updated Attributes

Vital to implement

• Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier.
• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets
• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic)
• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon)
• Access to reliable recovery (via moves)
• Limited setup options (Meteor Beam analogue)

Good Direction

• Above-average all-around stats
• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)
• Resilience against a relevant form of passive damage
• Balanced Offensive / Defensive typing

Unnecessary

• Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility

 

[Amamama]

Vital to implement

• Premium Very Good speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tiers slower wallbreakers aka should be able to outspeed 4-5/6 unboosted Pokémon on the opponents team

Eternatus isn’t the fastest Mon in the tier. There are like 1-2 unboosted Speed Tiers above it. Deo-A+Zacian sit at the highest speed, which would be equivalent to Dragapult and Zamazenta. These Mons represent your fastest unboosted speed control that most CAP balance teams will have (at least) one of. Below that you have Koraidon and Chien Pao, which id say roughly corresponds to how Stratagem, Darkrai and Weavile sit in CAP. Below that it gets more crowded but I’d say you will sometimes see secondary speedy mons on more balanced teams down until 110 speed. Somewhere between that upper bound and the 110 mark should be where Mini Eternatus sits to roughly emulate the tier it represents in Ubers.

• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets

Eternatus has the stats to do multiple different things depending on how EVs are allocated. It doesn’t really have a deep movepool or defining ability or other resources to do it so it’s essential to its flexibility.

• Access to 50% Recovery or access to the ability to play reliable defensive roles

its ability to outlast other threats is notable. Reliable recovery will especially be important to make the bulkier sets work. Comparisons to Cresceidon, Zapdos, Astrolotl and Torn-T show that less bulky but somewhat fast mons need to stay ahead on their health to reliably check threats throughout the game.

• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon)

I think this is I’m so far defining for Eternatus because it basically only has 3 Attacking moves to use, which still end up covering everything neutrally. I don’t think this necessarily has to come through STAB alone but good or even great 3 move coverage seems like the way to go. I could see this being less impactful than the above.

Good Direction

• Above-average all-around stats Flexible mix of solid Sweepiness and Tankiness ratings.

I don’t think above average stats are mandatory to emulate Eternatus. It might end up needing great stats but I wouldn’t say it is absolutely required. I will also say that requirements for EVs probably favor stats that are the opposite of well rounded, something that Eternatus itself shows as well. That said the Mon should definitely have a Sweepiness rating that would also fit on a sweeper or cleaner and solid tankiness that allows it to perform defensive tasks well, with the caveat that it is stretched thin between the two making it only ever possible to EV for one option at a time.

• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic)

Give it salt cure Toxic is pretty good idk

• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)

Part of Eternatus identity is a quite shallow movepool.

• Typing provides immunity to Toxic Typing or ability provide resilience against being worn down by more passive mons.
• Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (is this true?)

Unnecessary

• Not unnecessary but low priority: Limited setup options
• Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific)
• Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility

Overall I think wrt to flexibility of roles and stats mons like Tornadus-T, Astrolotl, Zapdos and Gholdengo are good mons to compare to.

 

[Feldirion]

Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets

I'd double up on this point as crucial. Eternatus's main selling point in Ubers is it's role coverage. It can play a bulky tank, Agility sweeper, tanky breaker or anything in-between. This is compounded by the other attributes: above-average stats across the board, premium speed steer, access to recovery and solid offensive coverage, but if I were to summarize Eternatus in a single sentence, look to the top of this post.

Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (is this true?)

This is a little harder to answer. 's typing boasts a few notable merits. It can tank Ho-oh's Sacred Fire and soak up the burns, it can resist Zamazenta-Crowned's Body Press, and, with a little luck, it can take Kyorge's Water Spout and turn the tables on it. Considering how splashable some of those mons are, I'd say Poison-Dragon can be pretty useful on the defensive side.

On weaknesses? Well, those can hurt it quite a bit. Ground is solid coverage that allows mons like Ho-oh to threaten it back. Psychic stops it walling NDM, Ice is a death sentence for Calyrex-Ice and Dragon means Eternatus fears Koraidon like the Black Death. Eternatus's typing isn't as good as some Ubers, but it's by no means irrevellant.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

congratulations to eternatus on its well-deserved win

now then.

here's my thoughts on what we should be doing with this guy:

vital to implement (ordered):

1. above average all round stats + ability to flex evs for bulky or offensive sets. these are the most vital parts of eternatus's ability to make good use of both regular tools and odd/unique tools, which i think is what differentiates it from other multirole all-rounder type of guys
2. premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier. another keystone tool in letting eternatus do what it do. we should probably do actual math on what the equivalent speed tier to eternatus would be in this meta
3. limited setup options. one of eternatus's greatest strengths and unique points is leveraging its stat spread and other good qualities to make use of non-standard setup, so if we're including setup, we should go that route. i think it would be appropriate to provide a cosmic power equivalent (something that doesn't provide the usual snowbally benefits but improves a different quality, such as longevity, enough to consider) and a meteor beam equivalent (something that can provide immediate offensive power and lead to a sweep but can only realistically be pulled off once; this can also be in consideration for abilities)
4. access to 50% recovery. longevity is a big part of what makes eternatus so flexible. this could theoretically be omitted, but only if this pokemon has some alternative method of sticking around for a long time (healing ability, really good draining move, immunity to many/all forms of residual damage, abuses something like leech seed really well???)

good direction:

• powerful stabs + coverage combo. realistically, we were gonna do this either way. once the typing stage comes along i'll probably do a mathematical analysis of exactly how good eternatus's stabs (and resists) are in its environment and what typings could replicate that
• typing has limited relevant resists/weaknesses in its meta (???). i don't actually know how true this is in principle, so it would be worth it to run the numbers to determine the actual quality of eternatus's defensive typing in its environment and what we could translate that as in this environment. i think it would be important to provide a typing that works in cap similarly to how eternatus's works in ubers
• access to powerful permanent progress tool. don't really have overly much commentary on this one, but not 100% convinced that it should be toxic
• lack of key utility. eternatus is kind of a "straight fundamentals, no funny business" mon, with most of its tools being immediately or long-term useful for itself outside of the one permanent progress tool. it would be prudent to have a similar energy
• typing provides an immunity to toxic. as amamama said, i think this should be expanded to cover other forms of immunity (both typing-based and ability-based) to common residual damage effects that would wear down the average mon. this circles back to my earlier point about longevity

unnecessary:

• outspeeds arceus forms and threatens toxic. a non-meta-specific analogue to "arceus forms" would be "an omnipresent collective of flexible mons that all share the same general speed and bulk tier". i don't think anywhere outside of arceus metas actually has a proper analogue to this, so i doubt this attribute would be possible to replicate here
• typing provides tspikes absorbing utility. i think we shouldn't pigeonhole ourselves into a single typing quite so early, and i don't think this is that important a part of eternatus either

 

[Rysachi]

Vital to implement

• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets (arguably the most defining trait of Eternatus.)
• Above-average all-around stats (pairs well with the first point)
• Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier. (same as above)
• Access to 50% Recovery (Wouldn't be relevant on a Gira-O slate but feels relevant for Eternatus to achieve the above points)
• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon as an example but not limited to)

Good Direction:

• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic/Night Shade/Super Fang/Seismic Toss)
• Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific, will get into more detail on who during stat slate I assume.)
• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)
• Typing provides immunity to Toxic (naturally get this if we choose poison or steel or a poison immunity ability)
• Limited setup options (having one option e.g. Meteor Beam rather than plenty.)

Unnecessary:

• Typing provides T-Spike absorbing utility (will naturally get if we choose poison but we don't need to limit our options to only poison)
• Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (I don't see the relevance here at all, maybe we can choose a more neutral resist:weakness ratio typing to counteract the important stat spread)

Might change my opinion on these so far but fully believe to catch the essence of Eternatus, this will lie heavily in the stat line. Eternatus is fast, hard hitting and can take hits using "lower" defenses with a very high HP stat to compensate and a low attack stat (can be made low SpAtk, just not a mixed attacker.)

Also believe the idea of having "perfect coverage" by having 2 STAB's with a clear type hole it cannot hit with a coverage type that covers this also catches Eternatus extremely well ontop of set versatility even within a more shallow movepool (Meteor Beam as a form of setup covers this but I don't think we have to focus hard on limitation.)

Finally with Eternatus winning over Gira-O, think it's safe to say 50% recovery really should be on the movepool slate.

 

[Spammernoob]

I'll post some clarifications re: this stage. The initial attributes are just to give discussion some direction; if you think there is something relevant to capture, or you think one attribute listed should be edited, feel free to make an argument for it.

I got asked a question about "Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific)", since it does not pertain to the CAP metagame. As noted, if there is an interaction in Ubers that you think is worth capturing, but you don't know how to distill it down to meta-agnostic / CAP metagame form, you can list out the interaction and we can work out how to translate it as a community. Inversely, if you think one of the points doesn't properly capture Etern's identity, you can argue to reexamine how it plays out in Etern's case.

Finally, I'll go through every 2 days to update the attribute list based on discussion. I'll make an accompanying changelog + reasoning post and adjudicate disagreements there, so if you disagree with any of the changes / reasoning, you can make a disagreement post in the next round. Tentatively, I'll limit this to 3 rounds (so 6 days) though we might end it early if discussion converges.

Anyways, have fun discussing.

 

[Lasen]

I've had another busy week and it's a little difficult to follow processes if you stop paying attention for even a second so I'll do a quick-fire round of what I think makes Eternatus successful in Ubers and what I'd expect to be able to translate to CAP without breaking the bank by making a 600 BST behemoth with 33 base Atk

Vital to implement

• Access to 50% Recovery - the make or break of Eternatus that made it better than Zacian-C in pre-DLC pre-HOME pre-fun SS Ubers. Also one of its key points right now is being one of few Pokemon that you can sit throw out there and you know at any given point it can go back up to full without relying on passive recovery from Regen/Lefties
• Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier. - You want something that does SM and ORAS Tornadus-T did, but with a Cresceidon coat of paint; a Pokemon that isn't necessarily gonna be faster than, say, Dragapult or MegaZam, but something you can confidently outspeed a base 100-110 and click Recover in front of if it's doing less than 70%
• Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific) - Tying it together with the above option tbh
• Limited setup options - NO WAY DO YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ETERNATUS AND GIVE IT ANYTHING BETTER THAN HOWL

Good Direction

• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets - I think there's a sweet spot of CM Clefable in ORAS here we can delve deeper into. You want a Pokemon that is able to flex its good coverage moves and/or offensive typing (Moonblast + Fire move or just BoltBeam + STAB option of any type) on a Pokemon without an insane (Sp)Atk stat but hurts balance teams specifically. I don't think we should be allowed to replicate Eternatus' literal Ubers status of "yeah this insanely fast Pokemon with extremely good defensive typing and stats also can sweep you, oopsie daisy!"
• Above-average all-around stats - I fear of the minmax
• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic) - Fine enough to build around!
• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting) - I think we can be allowed to give it a tiny bit of utility in something like Knock Off or Toxic Spikes, but that's about all, I don't wanna see a Cresc repeat of "Thunder Wave + Encore + Scald + Recover + Moonblast + HWish"
• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon) - If we do a dual-typing mon - which we will, it's CAP - we can stick to what Eternatus did in SS where its coverage was either Fire Move + Meteor Beam because Sludge Bomb is a product of the Ubers metagame being annoying as fuck with its specific Fairies; having two insane offensive typings which you can alternate is not the best imho

Unnecessary

• Typing provides immunity to Toxic - That's Etern specifically and not important in 90% of games
• Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility - That's Etern specifically and not important in 80% of games
• Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (is this true?) - This is just straight up not true lmao

I am a little reluctant to advocate for extremely high stats as I mentioned, but I am sure the CAP shadow cabal known as the Tee Ell Tee will veer discussion in the right direction! Feel free to tag me for discussion I cannot keep up with the messages sent on discord

 

[traceyscetchit]

I had a big rating with everything but people are settling stuff in nicely themselves so I'll just focus on contentious stuff/things I disagree with

Vital to implement

• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon) - We need this to ensure a 3 attacks offensive set works. Ideally, the coverage patches a major hole in the stabs such that all 3 are close to equal importance. I do want to caveat that while this is important and should play a role in type submissions, the coverage is doing a lot of the work here so it's ok to consider defensive factors pretty heavily during that stage. I would probably be ok if this dropped to good direction just because it may happen naturally in the process of ensuring viability.

Good Direction

• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic) - I know I said I would only talk about contentious stuff and here I am supporting the universally agreed statement. I just wanted a place to caveat that "permanent progress" is a bit much on a multi-role mon, and is really hard to guarantee, but being "good at making progress" is a great goal.
• Limited setup options - I think there's a bit of confusion here on whether this means "we shouldn't have powerful setup" or "we should have setup that is bad as opposed to no setup." I'm taking the latter interpretation because eternatus has a setup sweeper set, and I think we probably should too, ideally with high burst potential and low snowball potential. I'm only putting this in good direction though because there may be other ways to mimic meteor beam.

Unnecessary

• Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific) - This is a result of access to status and speed, and will either arise naturally as we give it status and speed or not as we deny one. As it is purely composite, I say we drop it and let the components to prove their own merits.
• Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (is this true?) - What lasen said

 

[bumboclaat]

One by one

Above-average all-around stats

This is technically true since most 'Box Legends' have a BST of 670-680 and Eternatus has 690. Sure the raw stats are slightly higher, but not significantly so. The bigger thing is that the stat spread is pretty optimized relative to most ubers. While I doubt CAP 38 will end up as minmaxed as Eternatus (i.e. only 85 attack for its lower attacking stat instead of the usual 100ish in previous generations), that 'style' of stat spread is what enables Eternatus to be as powerful and flexible as it is.

Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier.

Discussed this on discord, but yeah this is really important. For context, below is a quick breakdown of some Pokémon and their speed tiers. A Eternatus style Pokémon isn't going to be the fastest in the metagame, but it would serve as the gatekeeper between fast offensive Pokémon and Pokémon defined by their speed. 125ish was the initial number I settled on and Spammernoob mentioned it'd likely settle around 115-130. Metagame specific stuff will likely decide the final speed tier, but the ability to outspeed those midrange Pokémon with minimal or no investment is pretty important.

77 | (mentioned because it needs Jolly if it wants to outspeed Eternatus at +1)
85 |
90 |
95 |
97 |
99 |
120 |
125 |
129 |
130 |
135 |
140 |
148 |

The above isn't an exhaustive list, but I do think a basic visual is useful. I'm not listing every single relevant Uber, but hopefully the visual paints a decent picture. If Eternatus wants to outspeed the bloated 90-100 it requires some investment for the top end (i.e. 8+ for Yveltal), but it can still run a lot of bulk and vice versa for faster Pokémon such as Arceus and Marshadow. What is interesting, but unfortunately likely will not translate cleanly, is the extent to which every Pokémon faster than Eternatus is capable of causing it a lot of trouble. As seen above, while Eternatus does outspeed some fast Pokémon, they're at the lower end of 'fast' and everything above it is clearly fast as fuck. The exact Speed will be figured out later, but somewhere around Iron Valiant, if not faster, is should be the floor for CAP 38.

Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic)

Some type of progress making tool helps defensive sets to help check offensive threats. It doesn't have the bulk to wall Pokémon such as Arceus or Primal Kyogre forever, but landing a Toxic (or setting up Toxic Spikes earlier) means it can wall some of those Arceus formes or trade itself for a crippled Primal Kyogre. CAP 38's tool doesn't have to be Toxic, but defensive Eternatus can thud into Pokémon that can ignore or mitigate Toxic damage and it is fine if CAP 38 does the same against Pokémon such as Snaelstrom, Gliscor, or Gholdengo. Even if Eternatus has high natural power, without investment it isn't very threatening to bulkier Pokémon unless hitting super effectively.

Access to 50% Recovery

This is very important and plays a role in set flexibility. The natural bulk is good, especially for an offensive Pokémon on its offensive sets, but it isn't a tank / wall without the reliable recovery. Combined with Pressure it makes defensive sets hard to remove without smacking it hard.

Limited setup options

This one is pretty important. People have mentioned the demon set a fair amount on discord and that is something I don't think CAP 38 needs. It creates boring and uninteractive gameplay loops and is the sort of thing everybody remembers because they've lost to it at some point even if it isn't very good. Offensively it has Agility and Meteor Beam and it is fine being limited to that. Meteor Beam is interesting because while it is setup, it is also Eternatus's primary way to get through Ho-Oh and is going to be a one time boost in most games and landing that does make a big difference. Agility on the other hand is cool, but not as essential and relegated to HO where it is niche and comes at a cost. Setup options should be limited, but I'm not sure exactly how necessary they are to its identity. CAP 38 probably wants a setup move like Meteor Beam, not Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, or Swords Dance if it has one.

Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)

I guess one way to look at this would be that Eternatus probably wouldn't have Toxic and Toxic Spikes if it was not a Poison-type. That being said, CAP 38 probably wants one key utility move for the defensive set that isn't relevant on the offensive set. Defensive Eternatus has pretty significant 4MSS and always wishes it had that extra slot. One slot is always recover and it has to chose between Toxic, Toxic Spikes (it often wants both), Dynamax Cannon, and Fire-type coverage (Mystical Fire or Flamethrower). This adds depth to defensive sets without being overbearing and is a positive source of friction on a macro level.

Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon)

This one is essential, but has complexity while requiring CAP 38 to tread a thin line balance wise. It is also difficult to look at this in a vaccum because yes the STABs are powerful, but that is enhanced by the typing having a lot of solid synergies offensively and defensively and that Speed tier. For example, Eternatus is a Dragon that is neutral to Fairy that can also threaten them. While CAP 38 may not end up with the same STABs as Eternatus, it can at least somewhat follow the recipe. Sure Eternatus has powerful STABs, but both have immunities and are resisted by Steel. However, the wide neutral coverage of said powerful STABs makes filling out the holes quite easy as seen with that Fire-type coverage. However, this also comes with a caveat with Eternatus learning Fire Blast this generation since the damage bump gives it the means to get through Zacian-C and Necrozma-DM with proper positioning. Meteor Beam wasn't mentioned here, but that boost is what transforms Eternatus from an average power level to a Pokémon capable of sweeping and cleaning far more easily. I'm not sure if the 30% poison chance on Sludge Bomb is worth mentioning because that can enable it to break through Pokémon such as Calm Mind Arceus formes or Ho-Oh.

Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific)

The specifics are metagame specific, but the ability to outspeed and cripple Pokémon on the lower end of 'fast' is pretty important and translatable to an OU power level. Keeping this as an option is pretty good because of that flexibility. Even if it is less powerful in CAP, there is still value as forcing a setup threat out due to not wanting to be crippled in some manner still has value even if CAP has plenty of meta relevant Pokémon that can punish this passive style of play. Even then, CAP 38 would likely end up having a positive type matchup into one of them. Flexibility comes with a cost and if your iteration of CAP 38 has blind spots then you've got to build the rest of the team in a way that accomodates the set. CAP 38 should be making a lot of those midrange or faster Pokémon contemplate a gameplan instead of blindly clicking buttons.

Typing provides immunity to Toxic

I think this is likely an important one and like the way it is worded. I play ND so Toxic is far more relevant there than SD, but having to smack it hard instead of whittling it down passively like that helps both offensive and defensive sets. Also having a Toxic Spikes absorber on HO is very nice, but that also strays more into metagame specific stuff. For what it is worth, paralysis is just as crippling for a Pokémon as reliant on its Speed as Eternatus is. This is something that I'd say is something to aim for, but not something that has to be replicated. With the direction CAP 38 is heading both Steel and Poison are fitting types anyways for the whole combo of offensive / defensive utility on the defensive side for other reasons alongside the Toxic immunity. It definitely is not essential

Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility

This is more metagame specific since Eternatus is also the only relevant Toxic Spikes spreader outside of an HO lead such as Glimmora. Maintaining the Toxic immunity with a Steel-typing should take priority over absorbing Toxic Spikes with a Poison typing if push comes to shove.

Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (is this true?)

This is both true and isn't. Every Ubers metagame has its own perks as most generations are going to introduce at least one highly relevant Pokémon which has a disproportionate ability to shake up the metagame dynamics relative to OU due to the small and centralized nature of Ubers. Eternatus's typing is great both offensively and defensively whilst having common and exploitable weaknesses that are only mildly offset by its high bulk. The general vibe likely translates to OU without any changes, but might be better realized with a different one as well.

Some attributes can wildly fluctuate in value depending on metagame specific stuff. The best place to start is that Dragon typing. It is definitely something that Eternatus appreciates offensively and defensively (Dynamax Cannon can't be ignored as being stuck between Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse would make a significant difference), but can be a bit of a double-edged sword. It also functions differently because a type that hits itself super effectively is going to heavily favour the fastest Pokémon of that type. Again, metagames do matter. For example, Eternatus is the fastest Dragon in ND, but has to worry about Koraidon in SV. Furthermore, Eternatus likely would have perferred if Game Freak opted to include the XY box legends in SV instead of the SM ones due to a significantly better matchup spread.

The answer to the question is also more complicated than it would imply. Simply put, the answer is yes. Eternatus's typing in an Ubers context is incredibly strong, but balanced. The resistances are good, but so are the neutralities such as being a Dragon neutral to Fairy. Not all of the resists really matter in an Ubers context, but are appeciated every now and then. This is balanced by having some fairly exploitable weaknesses. Dragon and Ground are very common, while Psychic is more metagame dependent, but still present to some degree regardless.

Every aspect of the typing plays a role, but it can't be decoupled from a Pokémon that is also very fast and has at least a respectable offensive output and solid natural bulk. Consequently, Eternatus's matchups with various Pokémon, even those that threaten it, can be set and game state dependent. Sure Ground-types threaten Eternatus, but the typical Ground-type is also hesitant to switch into Eternatus as well. Equilibria (alongside some other CAPs I'm ingorant of) makes this apples to oranges somewhat, but an Eternatus style Pokémon would at least have a tool to prevent it from being a beyond free switchin even if it isn't on every set.

Simply put, the typing plays a significant role in the flexibility that defines Eternatus. It gives Eternatus:

1. A solid offensive synergistic typing that still has some clear holes, but also synergizes well defensively and gives it the ability to (soft) check some specific stuff while having some common and exploitable weaknesses.

2. A typing that is strong, but not the top of the top offensively or defensively. Dragon / Poison is good, but it isn't Ground / Fairy offensively or Steel / Fairy defensively. The vibe can be replicated with a different typing to accomodate for different metagames, but this is also a typing that will be good in most metagames if the rest of the Pokémon isn't dogshit.

3. A typing synergizes incredibly well with its toolkit. If you kept everything the same but made Eternatus physical it would play very differently as Dynamax Cannon / Sludge Bomb are significantly better than the physical alternatives.

4. A stat spread that enables all of the above. If a Pokémon is weak to its own STAB, then it is disproportionally impacted when faster Pokémon exist. Additionally, the power level is kind of perfectly tuned for the context of an Ubers metagame. 145 is strong, but also pretty average. For example, Eternatus needs luck or a boosting item to KO itself with Dynamax Cannon. Coil Zygarde, not known for being specially bulky, can tech 44 SpD to survive Dynamax Cannon without much cost. It also isn't powerful enough to take out frailer offensive Pokémon without a boost or hitting them super effectively (i.e. Marshadow).


Necessary

• Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier.
• Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific)
  • the above two are very similar
• Access to 50% Recovery
• Limited setup options
• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets
• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon)

Hard to do Without

• Above-average all-around stats

Good Direction

• Typing provides immunity to Toxic
• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)
• Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (is this true?)
• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic)

Take it or leave it

• Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility

---

As an addendum, while Eternatus can run a ton of sets, the sets themselves don't tend to have a ton of internal variety and that is important for CAP 38. It is important that any single set isn't doing too much at once.

 

[dex]

I really enjoy the “lack of key utility options” feature, so much so that I would honestly suggest it be required. Eternatus essentially would dedicate one slot to utility (Toxic or Toxic Spikes, which yknow, kinda similar) on defensive sets, which is pretty cool, and just use its naturally excellent typing + high HP stat to get the job done. I like this as a mold for this CAP, something that wants to provide a team with some utility but does so via at most one moveslot. As I said during the first concept assessment, Eternatus’s relatively limited movepool is one of its most interesting facets and something we should emulate.

 

[Guingil]

Aspects I think are the most important, with some modifications:

Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon) with a blind spot

Not too big of a difference, but I think this formulation hones in on the pulled-in-all-directions aspect of Eternatus. In this case, Steel-type's matchup against Dragon and Poison facilitates these choices for Eternatus:

1. Drop a STAB for widespread coverage/make space for setup like Meteor Beam that has the same blind spot (Chuggalong also does this)
2. Drop longevity via recovery on 4A sets
3. Drop necessary power via setup on 3A + recovery sets

Lower powered options like Flamethrower/Mystical Fire on SS Eternatus are more interesting to me than Fire Blast on SV, but this is pretty subjective and something to be hashed out later. I'd also specify that any two of the three types (STAB + coverage) together should not be so good that we have a situation like Kyurem's, where Ice/Ground is pretty much enough for most sets unless you want Draco Meteor's nuke power, but this seems a little bit too restrictive as well.

Limited setup options

Combined with the above, I think not allowing mini-Eternatus an easy way out of its power problems is key to its identity. Even aside from the obvious denial of +2 options like Nasty Plot, Calm Mind along with Toxic resistance on a relatively bulky kit just handwaves away issues of coverage, as seen with Clefable running only Moonblast or Cresselia running Moonblast + Stored Power on Lunar Blessing sets. We do not want this.

Typing Kit provides immunity resilience to Toxic long-game counterplay options

I think this encapsulates both the Toxic immunity and the utility of Pressure, although the latter's functioning in a low PP metagame is not exactly the same as how it functions in OU/CAP (SubTect Kyurem...). Making it about the kit rather than the typing allows for some flexibility in enacting this through ability (Immunity) or a move (Lunar Blessing, for example), rather than constraining us to Poison and Steel as typings.

Access to 50% reliable recovery move

Really is a subset of the above, but allows for more options like Lunar Blessing, which Cresselia has demonstrated is pretty cool to have. I suppose narrowing down this function to a move rather than something like Regenerator is pretty important as well.

Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)

Arguably one of the most important ones here as dex already mentions. I would add Knock Off to this as well. Looking at CAP processes, we tend to think this kind of utility is pretty essential to define a niche to fit onto teams. Eternatus skeleton-waggles its way in face of this conventional wisdom (though this is arguable, as Toxic/TSpikes are more valuable in Ubers, but I thought it'd be cool to phrase it like that). So we should definitely try to replicate this to some extent, for adherence to the original as well as turn the lens inward on CAP tendencies.

Access to only one powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic)

We have a lot of status absorbers in OU/CAP, so this is a bit nerfed in translation, but I think limiting mini-Eternatus' access to only one way could be an interesting challenge. Toxic obviously works the best here, if mini-Eternatus has anti-long-game counterplay options as mentioned above, but I wonder if stuff like Leech Seed, etc also count. Funnily enough, status absorbers' Gliscor and Snaelstrom's (ab)use of Protect and Spiky Shield would make for an interesting dynamic with something like Meteor Beam.

Premium Very good but limited Speed tier; outsped by some offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier.

I agree with Ama, and rather than a percentile, this has to be looked at in context. Kyurem for example uses SubTect pretty well with Pressure even with its Speed tier.

I think the points above are all pretty vital, but some could be pushed down to the good direction tier. The below seem either like a way to get there, considering some of the vital stuff is nerfing mini-Eternatus rather than enabling it, or a little bit beside the point (in my very subjective opinion):

• Above-average all-around stats
• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets
• Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific)
• Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility
• Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame (is this true?)

 

[quziel]

The one thing we should replicate is the idea that while you can do almost anything, you really have to choose one element to focus on, and really struggle to multi-task. Life Orb boosted Etern can OHKO Zacian-Crowned, but only using Fire Blast, and only can make said KO reliable when Rocks are up. Want to embrace your bulk and go Lefties? You can't beat the Ubers doggo.

Your speed stat is a blessing, but its also a curse. You are fast enough that you sorta have to invest in speed on literally every set, including your most defensive ones. Your HP stat is definitely a positive, you'd be nowhere near as good defensively without it, but its also part of a stat spread where you sorta have to run a stat spread like 80 Def / 252 SpD / 176 Spe, aka you can't be both physically and specially capable at the same time.

Your movepool is legitimately quite good, but equally its missing some proper multi-purpose moves. Taunt would let your defensive sets leverage pressure and your typing to actually break past walls. Granted you do have Toxic, but I'm trying to make a point. You have coverage for functionally everything, but your setup moves are Meteor Beam and Cosmic Power. These aren't bad in any way, but again, they don't lend themselves to a "do it all offensive spread" in the way Calm Mind could. I know I'm complaining about very minor things, but I think if we're going to replicate the feel of Eternatus we gotta like really force it in a ton of different directions and make it really really choose. Don't let it have a compromise set, force it to choose.

Equally this is sorta a pokemon defined by luxury. Its typing + stats mean its more likely to get a second meteor beam off than almost anything else I've seen. Even its defensive sets are decently threatening thanks to the combo of Toxic + 100 BP stab + flamethrower. I don't fully know, but trying to hit the spoiled kid mix of almost everything you need, but just barely missing enough that you have to specialize is gonna be hard.

Edit:
Mentally covering which mons feel similar vs not, and I've sorta settled on Tornadus-Therian and Latias. I feel by this mix really what we want is some level of longevity, speed, and a mixture of offensive and defensive sets.

 

[Badly Poisoned]

Mentally covering which mons feel similar vs not, and I've sorta settled on Tornadus-Therian and Latias. I feel by this mix really what we want is some level of longevity, speed, and a mixture of offensive and defensive sets.

Latias is exactly what I had in mind when thinking about Eternatus, specifically how Mega Latias was ran with BoltBeam + TWave + Roost, and more recently, Mega Dragonite with DPulse + Flamethrower + Thunderbolt + Roost.

I think of Eternatus as a Pokemon that excels at damage trading efficiently, an that all its defining qualities are in service to that end.

• Above-average all-around stats
• Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier.
• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets
• Access to 50% Recovery

All these tools are there to make sure that when you are sitting there and trading neutral hits back and forth, you are dishing out the hits faster, taking less and doing more, and eventually being able to heal everything off.

• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon)

And this is complementary to that end. Poison/Fire/Dragon is an offensive combo defined by excellent neutral coverage more so than SE, hitting less things for SE than some 2 move BoltBeam or EdgeQuake. It's less so a case of "I can chunk everything", and more of "I'm happy dealing neutral to everything, but if you bring in an immunity to my move, I have SE on you", type of deal.

• Limited setup options
• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)
• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic)
• Typing provides immunity to Toxic

And here are the brakes.
Eternatus plays really fair in a way. It rarely brute forces its way through stuff, and it's not exactly a stall mon either. It just sits there in a war of attrition and forces stuff to play the war of attrition with it.

 

[Spammernoob]

Update Post:

I talleyed the rankings in a spreadsheet and then made some judgement calls for contentious points. I didn't count the latest 3 posts, since they didn't provide clear rankings, but I will discuss them at the bottom of the post.

Talley

Vital to implement

• Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier.
• Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets
• Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic)
• Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon)
• Access to reliable recovery (via moves)
• Limited setup options

Good Direction

• Above-average all-around stats
• Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting)
• Typing provides immunity to Toxic
• Balanced Offensive / Defensive typing

Unnecessary

• Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility

Explanation of Rankings

Vital to implement

Premium speed tier; outsped by select offensive Pokemon, but outspeeds most of the tier. : There is some disagreement on what exact speed tier this entails, but speed seems to be a vital part of Eternatus' playstyle.

Ability to flex EVs for bulky or offensive sets: I think one of the defining features of Eternatus is role variability based on EV allocation. Nailing this aspect requires our stat spread to hit a specific range, which may be difficult. More on this later.

Powerful STABs + Coverage combo (Poison / Fire / Dragon): Specifics can be discussed later, but hitting most things neutrally with 3-move combination seems to be important for Eternatus offensively. Notably, any 2-move combination becomes awkward (which leads to 4MSS).

Access to reliable recovery (via moves) : In conjunction with stats (Speed, ), allows Eternatus to actually have longevity in defensive role. Recover is also used to provide longevity for offensive sets like Life Orb, which is interesting.

Limited setup options: I think the consensus is that we should not give Eternatus premium setup options like NP / SD, or even CM / BU. There is some question about Eternatus has 2 flavors of setup, being Meteor Beam Offensive (Power Herb, 3a + Recover or 4a) and Meteor Beam + Cosmic Power (Recover + Dynamax Cannon) that play very differently. I think replicating offensive Meteor Beam is important; Cosmic Power is a possible direction, but not as vital. I'll leave it to the community to figure the details out here.

Good Direction

Above-average all-around stats: There is some worry regarding this aspect (and ability to flex EVs) that was brought up that I will address in more detail later, but at the bare minimum this Pokemon needs stats to be able to fulfill both offensive and defensive roles. Giving it Weavile stats, for example, would make defense pretty unviable.

Access to powerful permanent progress tool (Toxic): Toxic seems key to enabling defensive Eternatus sets, but its other sets do not use this component. Toxic is definitely one direction we can go for CAP38, though we should consider other paths as well, as Toxic is not nearly as consistent in CAP as in Ubers.

Lack of key utility (non-Tspike hazards, hazard removal, pivoting): As noted, Eternatus does have some amount of utility (Toxic, Toxic Spikes, Dragon Tail, Reflect / Light Screen ) so this is more of a guideline than a hard rule.

Typing provides immunity to Toxic : I'm not super convinced this needs to be done by typing, as ability (and to a lesser extent, movepool) can also fill this role. Amamama's idea of expanding this to "resilience against passive Pokemon" is interesting. I think it largely depends on how much we value replicating Eternatus' Cosmic Power sets. Those sets simply cannot function if Toxic'd, so answering Toxic specifically becomes more important. Otherwise, Salt Cure, Knock Off, Burn, etc. are also things we might look at in our implementation.

Balanced Offensive / Defensive typing : Amendment that is hopefully more accurate. Poison/Dragon is a good offensive typing with a major blind spot that requires Fire coverage; likewise, it is a solid defensive typing with some major weaknesses (Ground, Dragon, Ice) that force it to invest in bulk to tank neutral hits or SE coverage moves (Kyogre Ice Beam).

Unnecessary

Typing provides Tspike absorbing utility: This one pigeonholed us into Poison typing, and Toxic Spikes are not that relevant in Ubers anyways, so we can ignore it.

Changelog

Removed Outspeeds Arceus formes and threatens Toxic (meta-specific) . It was too meta-specific to Ubers and there wasn't really an analogue in CAP.

Edited Typing has limited relevant resists / weaknesses in Ubers metagame to "Balanced Offensive / Defensive typing". Several users noted this was inaccurate. After discussion on Discord, I decided to edit it to what it is now, and put it in "Good Direction" as initial placement. It is possible this description is too vague.

Edit Access to 50% Recovery to "Access to reliable recovery (via moves)". I think there's not actually a lot of relevant additional options this gives, but maybe Strength Sap is worth considering. EDIT: I'm not allowing Regenerator LOL

Extra Thoughts (Stats)

re: guingil, quziel, xeggutor's posts: There is a strong aspect of opportunity cost with this concept. If you dedicate EVs to bulk, you no longer secure key OHKOs / 2HKOs. If you maximize offensive EVs, you are OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by key moves (like Scarf Kyogre Ice Beam). This extends to Etern's items and moves; Life Orb enables certain KOs, at the cost of recovery and . The +1 from Meteor Beam enables more KOs, but you have to give up both a moveslot and an item; dropping Recover sacrifices longevity, while dropping an attack allows it to be walled.

Case Studies

Tornadus-Therian
Tornadus-Therian is an example of a fast Pokemon that can flex between offensive sets and defensive / utility sets. It has a strong 121 speed tier that gives options in how much it wants to outspeed; some Torns drop investment to outspeed base 110s only, though there are a few relevant Pokemon in that range. Additionally, Torn can use a variety of items; Life Orb is used on offensive sets to bolster its mediocre 110 SpA, though Boots is a solid default option otherwise; Assault Vest is sometimes used too for additional bulk.

Where Tornadus-T differs from Eternatus is movepool and typing. Torn has access to all the utility moves it could want, as well as a supremely spammable STAB in Flying. This removes basically all pressure from it with regards to moveslots.

Gholdengo
Gholdengo is an interesting example as well. This Pokemon has a variety of sets (Scarf, Offensive NP, Defensive) that depend heavily on EV allocation, and moveset woes as well. I will not go over all the relevant benchmarks for Ghold, but there are a lot listed in the analysis.

Gholdengo sometimes runs into the issue of moveslots that Eternatus does. NP Recover STABs is a powerful moveset, but is walled by some options like Kingambit. It's not always clear what is worth dropping for coverage like Dazzling Gleam or Focus Blast, or utility like Trick / Thunder Wave. Maybe Shadow Ball + Focus Blast would be good enough, if Make it Rain was not so strong, or Focus Blast so inconsistent.

Latias
DPP Latias was brought up as an example here, but I don't play DPP so someone who does will have to fill this part in.

I think this ties back to the points regarding stats. We need to make sure that CAP38 can hit relevant benchmarks with certain investment / item combinations, but can't hit all the relevant benchmarks on one set. This probably doubles / triples the amount of calcs a stat submitter will have to include in their submission.

Extra Extra Thoughts (misc.)

EDIT: A quick addendum on setup options. The comment below reminded me that I was thinking about it:
We have a few options to replicate the feeling of Meteor Beam. However, the Cosmic Power set and offensive Meteor Beam set use it differently. Cosmic Power uses it as slow setup (1 boost / 2 turns) while offensive Meteor Beam uses it as a tempo nuke + boost.
Here are some thoughts regarding options:

• Meteor Beam and Electro Shot port the mechanic 1:1
• Charge Beam / Torch Song / etc. enable Cosmic Power slow setup sets, but feel different from Meteor Beam tempo nuke sets.
• Throat Spray enables offensive sets but doesn't work with Cosmic Power sets
• A combination of Throat Spray + slow setup option (Work Up? Charge Beam?) could replicate the idea?

EDIT 2: I was discussing in Discord regarding Toxic, and it reminded me of an earlier discussion about Eternatus playstyle. Toxic is a massive part of Ubers (esp. NDUbers), and one might think that something like Knock + Hazards is analogous. In fact, when looking at permanent progress-making tools for defensive sets, one of the first options I looked at is Knock Off. One might consider making CAP38 resilient towards hazards to be a reasonable way to port this aspect from Ubers to CAP.
However, part of Etern's playstyle is very "stay in and click buttons". Knock, however, encourages a more hit-and-run playstyle, and hazards encourages cycling rather than staying in and throwing out attacks. Therefore, I'm not convinced something like Knock Off or Hazard resilience is a great implementation of Eternatus' Toxic usage / Toxic immunity.

Alright, now that you're past my ramblings, I want to focus on these ideas for the next 2 days. Of course, if you have proposals for the rankings, those are still welcome to be discussed.

Important Questions to Resolve

• With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types. I'm curious what the community thinks on this matter (and our Typing Leader, AzothBend ).
• Is there any process-level system that can enforce a 'power budget'?. This has always been a vague concept in discussion. Personally, I'm not convinced there's anything to be done, and we just let it ride until Stats (but this puts a lot of the burden on Stats submitters).
• How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?
• Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?
• Anything else I missed (I feel like I had more to ask but I forgot it).

Anyways, there was a lot of agreement in the past 2 days, so it is possible we can resolve everything in the next 2-day discussion and move to the next stage. If nothing contentious comes up, I will wrap things up on Sunday; however, if there are some unresolved major disagreements, I'll run this stage for 2 more days.

 

[Feldirion]

With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types. I'm curious what the community thinks on this matter (and our Typing Leader, @AzothBend ).

I like the idea of discussing this during typing submissions. There's not really any way to nail down which three types work best without limiting ourselves going into the typing stage, so I'd say it's better to shift the coverage discussions to that point instead of awkwardly skirting around it now. This is very much my personal opinion, though.

• How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?

Meteor Beam is something pretty much every seems to run, so I'd say it's a pretty integral part of its playstyle. The move itself might not be required, though: we always have the option of different-typed clones like Electro Shot or, on a lower scale, there are moves like Charge Beam and Torch Song that fulfill a similar niche: attacking and boosting at the same time. I don't think it matters how mini-Eternatus does it, so long as it can.
Cosmic Power feels like a nice addition, but it also doesn't feel that important? Idk here.

Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?

Given I don't feel Cosmic Power is a must-have, I'm also less fixated on this as important. However, "Resilience against passive Pokemon" does feel like an interesting spin on the concept, and I'm down for discussing that. There's a lot of different ways passive Pokemon get their damage in- hazard cycling, status, moves like Salt Cure, items like Rocky Helmet- and translating Toxic resistance into something else feels kinda neat.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

• Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?

i think there's a wide enough variety of non-type tools to accomplish this that we can pull it off without forcing steel or poison and won't feel too boxed in when we reach ability. our options for this include:

• pastel veil and immunity. these are straightforward, maybe a little bit boring, and don't accomplish anything outside of this immediate goal, but eternatus's ability isn't exactly a high-impact part of its kit either
• poison heal. we have two poison heal guys already, and i think this could end up undercutting the recovery aspect, but i don't think it should be totally discounted this early on
• magic guard. this would be an interesting way to fulfill the expanded definition of "immunity against long-term damage options" as suggested by a couple people, but might end up making life orb too strong an option on a mon where we don't want any single option to be the big obvious one
• comatose. has been visited in the past but let's be honest, we could use a mulligan with this one
• natural cure. not huge on this one because it encourages pivoty stuff that eternatus doesn't do, but still an option
• shed skin. technically not an immunity per se, but you usually shed the toxic before it accumulates too much damage and we'll also have recovery
• purifying salt. could also provide very interesting defensive matchup spreads
• flower veil. this would only work if we end up making it a grass-type, but hey, it would work
• misty surge. this does run the risk of undercutting many of our own permanent progress options as well, but i think it could be possible to finagle our way around this
• good as gold. the caveat is that this ability could end up expanding the mon's role too far, and also that it doesn't protect against every form of toxic poisoning (i.e. you can still be poisoned by toxic chain, tspikes, etc)
• jungle healing and lunar blessing??? not really an immunity and might be illegal but that would be a cool compression of reliable healing and toxic immunity (see, it's not poll jumping or slate jumping or whatever because i didn't just include abilities)

between all those and probably a couple other things i'm forgetting, i don't think we have to hyperfocus on steel and poison specifically in the typing stage, especially if we expand the definition from "toxic immunity" to something more broad

 

[Amamama]

With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types. I'm curious what the community thinks on this matter (and our Typing Leader, @AzothBend ).

I think we can fix this as as something to be discussed in Typing and just move forward with „good 3-move coverage/stab typing with good neutral coverage that has an overlapping resist“. Anything further can be discussed duringvthe typing stage.

Is there any process-level system that can enforce a 'power budget'?. This has always been a vague concept in discussion. Personally, I'm not convinced there's anything to be done, and we just let it ride until Stats (but this puts a lot of the burden on Stats submitters).

This seems relatively esoteric as having a budget implies having a measurable amount of something, which just isn’t true for anything but stats (combined with defining moves). Not only is there no good neutral way to measure a typings strength in isolation, its even more difficult to judge it with a multitude of further implications like meta matchups, available moves or ability.
I think we can simply go about this process in a very utilitarian way and just give the Mon what it needs to succeed regardless of budget.
I can see where this is coming from though, since Eternatus optimized stats play a big role in How successful it is. I just don’t think there’s a good way to account for wanting great stats in earlier stages.

How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?

i don’t think there’s move itself is that defining. It’s part of its „can do everything but only 1 at the time“ toolkit and could easily be replaced with something else that allows it to find more roles. I don’t even think it has to be set up necessarily. The main caveat of any added move should be similar to meteor beam is that it fights over a moveslot with 3rd coverage, recovery or utility. If we also manage to replicate the burst potential of Mbeam that’s cool but yeah idt we explicitly need the move or even something similar.

Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?

Toxic is just not as big in CAP and finding an immunity to it is very easy for most teams. Maybe we can think about ways of how to improve matchups against more passive plays (wisp, salt cure and other stuff)

 

[bumboclaat]

With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types. I'm curious what the community thinks on this matter (and our Typing Leader, @AzothBend ).

This really depends on what the three moves themselves are and if Dynamax Cannon is retained (or CAP 38 gets a reskinned type appropriate version). There will almost assuredly be a few viable STAB + coverage combos that are strong, but reasonable to deal with. Offensive Eternatus sets benefits as much from the widespread neutral coverage as the SE.

Is there any process-level system that can enforce a 'power budget'?. This has always been a vague concept in discussion. Personally, I'm not convinced there's anything to be done, and we just let it ride until Stats (but this puts a lot of the burden on Stats submitters).

This is out of my depth

How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?

Meteor Beam is quite defining and I wouldn't say Cosmic Power is. I kind of hated the tiering process throughout the entirety of SS Ubers so never really played and maybe Cosmic Power is legit there, but I've always seen it as something that is an option - albeit bad. It isn't fun to interact or play with and allowing CAP 38 to play crit me not with half the PP while having reasonable bulk + recovery seems like a poor idea.

I don't know the question to the last answer, but it should theoretically be possible? Additionally, Meteor Beam isn't a move that most types have a clone of. Electro Shot may exist, but if CAP 38 is already intended to be strong and bulky... I'm not sure giving it the ability to interact with weather is a good thing. If Eternatus is firing off multiple Meteor Beams a game then that is likely the result of their teambuilding / in-game play, not yours.

Furthermore, at least replicating the vibe of Meteor Beam seemingly makes the stat stages a lot easier since making offensive sets strong enough to sweep / clean in the right game states without setup makes it feel like the defensive sets would likely hit a little too hard. Please please please do not keep Cosmic Power. If you want to keep some niche move that isn't used very often consider giving CAP 38 phasing since Eternatus gets Dragon Tail.

Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?

I wouldn't describe it as vital, but it does force you to deal with Eternatus through non passive means a lot of the time. The spirit can be replicated via different typing or ability, but I do think there are some underrated aspects. Sure Poison is a decent defensive typing that Eternatus puts to good use, but it is also a crappy offensive typing that Eternatus makes the most of due to its synergy with Dragon and the utility of various Poison-type moves. While I'd consider the Toxic immunity important, I don't think it is vital. If CAP 38 innately shuts down one common method of dealing with defensive mons it probably replicates it well enough.

Electric has been discussed a lot on discord and I'm not a big fan of giving CAP 38 an electric immunity as taking away Eternatus's Speed lets a fair few mons beat it down or revenge that otherwise couldn't.

Anything else I missed (I feel like I had more to ask but I forgot it).

Eternatus is heavily defined by the number of sets it can run rather than internal variety within a specific set. If you see an Eternatus at preview you're generally going to know what set it is and what moves it has bar if a defensive set wants to be able to touch steels. While Eternatus can fill a lot of different roles it is rarely if ever the best at any of them. The result is greater than the sum of its parts.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

nah i'm just kidding, what shock actually wanted to say was this, in regards to whether pressure is a key part of eternatus's role:

i agree with this sentiment; this is a somewhat important part of eternatus that hasn't seen much mention and we would do well to keep this in mind

 

[IGotEaten]

Typing provides immunity to Toxic

I have some personal opinions on this. I think the immunity to Toxic is an important part of Eternatus, but this pigeonholes us into two typings. I think the criteria should be updated to something like “Typing stops a status/permanent progress tool.” In an already kind of restrictive concept, we need as much freedom as we can warrant.

 

[AzothBend]

With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types. I'm curious what the community thinks on this matter (and our Typing Leader, AzothBend ).

Hi, it's me, AzothBend, your Typing Leader. I expect STAB + coverage to be a big part of the next stage. It certainly is something I want to thoroughly explore. There are two important points I'd like to highlight now, while we're still in CA.
1) Eternatus naturally rocks a high SpA and runs two powerful STAB moves (100 BP and 95 BP, respectively). It may be difficult to emulate that level of power without STAB boost or an even higher SpA. That immediate offensive threat is something I think important to Eternatus' role.
2) Three-move coverage is abstract and replicable across several combinations. However, Eternatus's Dragon + Poison + Fire combination has a few notable interactions. Dragon is a broadly spammable offensive type, with only two resistances. Poison in turn, is regarded as a mediocre offensive type but speicfically targets one of Dragon's resistances (Fairy), while failing to hit the other (Steel). Fire, in turn hits the singular type to resist both STAB types (Steel). I'll leave it to the community to decide how closely we should adhere to this frame.

Is there any process-level system that can enforce a 'power budget'?. This has always been a vague concept in discussion. Personally, I'm not convinced there's anything to be done, and we just let it ride until Stats (but this puts a lot of the burden on Stats submitters).

As stated above, Eternatus' hits hard, immediately. A successful adaptation of Eternatus into the CAP metagame should strive to hit hard, just not quite as hard. That will be a balance of all four main stages. Weaker moves (and STAB) will demand higher stats and vice versa. It's worth pointing out Eternatus possessess a passive defensive ability. A more active defensive ability, or even an offensive one, should probably eat a good bit into the power budget.

How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?

Limited (offensive) set-up feels integral to Eternatus. It doesn't need to be Meteor Beam (or its cousin Electro Shot). The one-stage (and effectively one-time) boost of Meteor seem far more important than it's offensive capability; Rock is notably awful coverage for Dragon/Poison.

Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?

I'm torn on this point. The ability to block permament progess making tools does seem integral to Eternatus. Whether it has to be Toxic is unclear. Toxic status is far more common in CAP, and in turn, CAP has far more Toxic absorbers than Ubers. In that sense, we may be tunnel visioning a bit with Toxic and should broaden our horizon. Any sort of block to progress tools (status effects, secondary effects, and even common status moves) should suffice.

Anything else I missed (I feel like I had more to ask but I forgot it).

You haven't missed it, but I would like to take the opportunity to state the three most important aspects of Eternatus here: a flexible stat line, three-move coverage, a forced decision-making in movesets between coverage, set-up, and recovery. I've been calling this "jack of all trades, master of one" as shorthand. CAP38 should be able to do a lot of things, but only one well at a time.

 

[Badly Poisoned]

2) Three-move coverage is abstract and replicable across several combinations. However, Eternatus's Dragon + Poison + Fire combination has a few notable interactions. Dragon is a broadly spammable offensive type, with only two resistances. Poison in turn, is regarded as a mediocre offensive type but speicfically targets one of Dragon's resistances (Fairy), while failing to hit the other (Steel). Fire, in turn hits the singular type to resist both STAB types (Steel). I'll leave it to the community to decide how closely we should adhere to this frame.

I actually touched on this slightly on an earlier post, and I think part of Eternatus's identity is that despite it hitting everything at least neutrally, it never actually feels like a wallbreaker, and I think a big part of why that is is because of what Azoth said here. Dragon is a broadly spammable, but mostly as a neutral typing, whereas Poison and Fire are in service for hitting typings that resists Dragon.

I'm not familiar with wallbreakers in Ubers, so I want to draw a parallel to a lower tier mon in Nidoking, who feels completely different from Eternatus, as a negative example of what multi-move coverage can result in. It has access to the same Fire/Poison/x coverage option, but its access to Ground/Ice allows it hits too many things SE, and thus becoming a wallbreaker. I think it is very easy to accidentally build to become a wallbreaker if we are not careful with the coverage we decide to give our Mininatus, which I would consider a failure of concept.

I have some type combinations I have in mind, but it would probably be poll-jumping, so I'm gonna talk about the specifics at future stages. But I still think it is integral to Eternatus's identity that we have to pick a coverage combo that does not turn it into a wallbreaker.

 

[Gekokeso]

With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types.

This I think should be a priority for the typing to have. The ability to just have this ability to hit the tier for decent amounts of damage I think is pretty important for Eternatus in ubers and part of what it makes it so decent. While you could argue that given reliable recovery is a priority, as well as needing some sort of limited setup options and thus only really having like 2 slots in can dedicate to attacks, that 3 move coverage is not completely needed for a viable set. But if we want to emulate the sheer versatility of the mon having a dedicated coverage move will be essential to allowing multiple sets to exist.

Is there any process-level system that can enforce a 'power budget'?.

I know it will sounds disingenuous coming from a tlt of this process but imo we should take the following approach for 38 given its SV's last cap:

Any attempts to earnestly bring a mon like Eternatus in are probably gonna result in something that is going to have some level of bloat. That's fine, we can eventually sort out the kinks of it to ensure we don't overshoot it too much. I think once we commit to either a strong typing / stat spread we will be able to know where to limit the mon.

How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?

Mentioned it before but I agreed with previous assessments that a key part of Eternatus' capabilities is to be able to provide offensive sweeping potential with very limited offensive options. Meteor Beam is not a requirement per say, but in general the move tends to be one of the better setup moves when a mon doesn't have access to the likes of Nasty Plot, so I wouldn't make it completely required but it is a very viable route to try.

Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?

Gonna go against the grain and say that we should absolutely not chain ourselves to the idea of either being Toxic Immune or even need it in the first place.

Lets compare Ubers and CAP. Ubers has notoriously always had a slightly lack of steel types and poison types. Hell, Etern is the only Poison type legendary pokémon besides Arceus-Poison. Fire coverage in particular is also very common in Ubers, so the steels that exists need to watch out for it when attempting to switch in on a toxic. Despite being ground weak, Etern being able to resist one of the most common coverage types to hit toxic absorbers is another part as to why its so viable in Ubers given the number of mons who use the status.

CAP OU is a extremely different enviroment. Just going from the A rank of the current CAP viability rankings you can observe that 8 of the pokémon found on the rank and above are toxic immune, and that is not counting the other less viable options below those ranks. Gliscor, who is already a decent option on Ubers specifically because its a great status absorber, its arguably one of, if not, the best pokémon in the entire metagame. CAP OU is already filled by a surplus of toxic absorbers already, so making yet another one of them when we could focus more on the other aspects of the pokémon feels like a missplay.

 

[a fairy]

v quick sry

• With regards to 3-move coverage, how integral is this to typing? Personally, I think we should discuss the coverage type during typing stage; ideally, every typing sub includes potential 3rd coverage types. I'm curious what the community thinks on this matter (and our Typing Leader, @AzothBend ).

I think it is pretty integral, and I'd like to see it enforced with slate preference given to those who have logical third coverages compared to Eternatus. I don't want us to come out of typing with more questions about what we're doing with typing, y'know? Hell, could even slate multiple options of the same duo type that differ on the coverage type! Maybe that's a bit out there but we should be exiting Typing IMO with a strong understanding of our 3-move coverage.

• Is there any process-level system that can enforce a 'power budget'?. This has always been a vague concept in discussion. Personally, I'm not convinced there's anything to be done, and we just let it ride until Stats (but this puts a lot of the burden on Stats submitters).

Inclined to agree. A good TLT (and I'm convinced we have one) can help pull the levers with slating to prevent power budget catastrophe, but we have to be realistic that the average CAP process experience is wanting pizza with all the toppings. I think slates can be used to avoid the most bonkers stuff, but I think we have to understand that we're going to get to stats and need to go with low(er) numbers.

• How defining is Meteor Beam to Eternatus' identity? How about Cosmic Power? Would a Pokemon without any setup feel like Eternatus?

I definitely think MB is more defining than Cosmic, IMO. Maybe I'm wrong and am coming at it from a Godly Gift POV where the former is a huge "do they or don't they" and the latter is more of a gimmick afterthought, but I think the big "I'm going to power up and do a ton of damage but I can only do it once safely" is a huge part of how I see Eternatus. The "give me 5 turns and I'll be unkillable" part is like... I don't think it's a big deal if that goes missing.

• Regarding Toxic immunity: how vital is this to maintaining the identity of Eternatus? If our typing is not part-Steel or Poison, are we pigeonholed during Ability stage?

I think it's gotta be immune to something, I dunno if it's Toxic specifically. It probably ought to be Toxic, going "ah this 'mon can't be infatuated" isn't exactly going to have the same ring to it, but I don't think we should be so dogmatic as to demand that the immunity be specifically to (badly) poisoned as a condition. If that's where we want to go, sure, but let's explore what possibilities exist potentially otherwise.

 

[traceyscetchit]

Gonna go against the grain and say that we should absolutely not chain ourselves to the idea of either being Toxic Immune or even need it in the first place.

Lets compare Ubers and CAP. Ubers has notoriously always had a slightly lack of steel types and poison types. Hell, Etern is the only Poison type legendary pokémon besides Arceus-Poison. Fire coverage in particular is also very common in Ubers, so the steels that exists need to watch out for it when attempting to switch in on a toxic. Despite being ground weak, Etern being able to resist one of the most common coverage types to hit toxic absorbers is another part as to why its so viable in Ubers given the number of mons who use the status.

CAP OU is a extremely different enviroment. Just going from the A rank of the current CAP viability rankings you can observe that 8 of the pokémon found on the rank and above are toxic immune, and that is not counting the other less viable options below those ranks. Gliscor, who is already a decent option on Ubers specifically because its a great status absorber, its arguably one of, if not, the best pokémon in the entire metagame. CAP OU is already filled by a surplus of toxic absorbers already, so making yet another one of them when we could focus more on the other aspects of the pokémon feels like a missplay.

Love this post, and I would like to argue the same conclusion from another direction.

Methods of inflicting badly poisoned, as a whole, are more widely distributed, and distributed to better pokemon, in national dex ubers than in ou/cap. Going down the CAP VR, I see , , , , , , , and . Of those, pecharunt is the only one to nearly always run a move that badly poisons.

Going down the natdex ubers VR, the poison spreaders are , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and . And half of the pokemon not listed learn toxic and could run it for surprise value. Natdex Ubers is also more centralized, so the same number of pokemon makes up a higher proportion of the metagame. Basically, if we have the desire to port eternatus's toxic immunity, I don't think just directly copying toxic immunity actually creates all that strong of an analogue. We would heavily restrict either typing or ability just to poorly mirror an interaction that has far less relevance in CAP. If this is really something we want to port, abstracting it to something more widespread than badly poisoned in CAP would mirror eternatus better than blindly ripping an interaction.