does anybody feel bst should come before style and build.
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- Thread starter Deck Knight
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I agree with him but already without having a restriction there are people wanting something really defensive, can hit hard as well as being fast.
Like to point that what's overpowering to one person, might not be so powerful to another. It's a matter of opinion/view/belief/whatever when it comes to that.
Also...we're cutting out the BST out of the list of polls( I.E This project too)?
Also...we're cutting out the BST out of the list of polls( I.E This project too)?
i think there should be a limit to the bst, i don't really think its a good idea to allow anyone to go out there and make a 555+ base stat pokemon. If we want to make something legendary or 600 tier(celebi,tar,garchomp etc) i feel this should be one of the first things decided on at the concept,typing stage.
I totaly agree.
yeah... BST is always going to be between 500 and 555 anyways...
but, if we do that, lower BST will rarely be chosen like we did with revenankh. who here would not like to add 20 stats to revenankh?
BST should be shortened to a one day poll deciding between 500-525 and between 526-555. Just so that some times, we don't get a 540+ stat Pokemon.
also, style and build should be 2 days each. build is almost decided, and it hasn't even been 24 hours. in style, we were talking about art after 48 hours.
but, if we do that, lower BST will rarely be chosen like we did with revenankh. who here would not like to add 20 stats to revenankh?
BST should be shortened to a one day poll deciding between 500-525 and between 526-555. Just so that some times, we don't get a 540+ stat Pokemon.
also, style and build should be 2 days each. build is almost decided, and it hasn't even been 24 hours. in style, we were talking about art after 48 hours.
555 and even 545 are alot higher then most people are giving credit, i dont even think they should be an option.
okay, then make them one day each... I thought style started on thursday for some reason. what I am trying to say is that they are both 1 day too long right now.
I say a BST poll is necessary, just because the portion of people who will design a smaller BST is low. Why limit yourself when other may or may not? It's like saying you won't use Blissey, Garchomp, and Gengar because they are most three used on Shoddy. if you want your vision to win the poll, you have to use all the base stat you can. (I learned this the hard way, Mario with Lasers used 555 for Syclant, I used 545. If I had 10 more Base Stat in HP, people would have been much less afraid of my spread.)
I agree, but I'm wondering how much of that is due to them landing on Friday/Saturday/Sunday?
Ok, this makes sense and I accept it as a perfectly valid reason.
Yep, pretty much. Never have used Blissey nor Garchomp (nor Gyarados either), never will. Stopped using Gengar once it hit top 3 as well.
Makes sense.
You know, this Project (THIRD) really makes me wonder why we decide build and spread before design and movepool. Movepool and Design are in no way dependent upon build and spread, but spread certainly can be tweaked in regards to the movepool.
Shouldn't we decide typing first, then the general design of the Pokemon, then the movepool, and then the spread.
This way all the assumptions currently taking place in the build topic right now would immediately be removed.
And don't say that we do it to expedite the process; people were giving great art suggestion in the second poll, and if we make a disclaimer saying that "ok, once the second poll is relatively decided, you may start giving general suggestions for art," we can decide to vote on the general design of the Pokemon.
This would allow us to easily pick the movepool of the Pokemon, and then make a build and spread that aren't based on assumption.
Shouldn't we decide typing first, then the general design of the Pokemon, then the movepool, and then the spread.
This way all the assumptions currently taking place in the build topic right now would immediately be removed.
And don't say that we do it to expedite the process; people were giving great art suggestion in the second poll, and if we make a disclaimer saying that "ok, once the second poll is relatively decided, you may start giving general suggestions for art," we can decide to vote on the general design of the Pokemon.
This would allow us to easily pick the movepool of the Pokemon, and then make a build and spread that aren't based on assumption.
That's a pretty good idea. Basically making it like this?
Main Type
Secondary Type
Art
Ability
Movepool
Style/Build (at this point it could probably be condensed to one thread)
Stats
Continue as normal after that.
*edit*
Actually, after thinking about it, I don't know how much I like putting Movepool before Style/Build. It would remove some problems, but at the same time can determine what the style and build will end up being by itself. Would also prevent us from giving it any unique moves to make a certain build/style better.
I definately agree Art and Ability needs to be moved up though. Those two would eliminate a lot of the back and forth that was going on in the build thread.
Main Type
Secondary Type
Art
Ability
Movepool
Style/Build (at this point it could probably be condensed to one thread)
Stats
Continue as normal after that.
*edit*
Actually, after thinking about it, I don't know how much I like putting Movepool before Style/Build. It would remove some problems, but at the same time can determine what the style and build will end up being by itself. Would also prevent us from giving it any unique moves to make a certain build/style better.
I definately agree Art and Ability needs to be moved up though. Those two would eliminate a lot of the back and forth that was going on in the build thread.
Considering that people started submitting stat spreads in the typing poll, I think it's questionable that we should attempt to delay stats until the very end. People on this project seem to REALLY LIKE jumping into the details of the stat spreads. If we move it to the end, then we are going to have weeks and weeks of nearly irrelevant discussion as people obsess over stat spreads in almost every poll of the project. OR, the TL will have to be a hard-ass and constantly remind people to stop discussing stats spreads until the stat poll nears.
Neither of these is a good situation.
Personally, I would love stats to be deferred until later. But, for some reason, people on this project can't seem to discuss anything about a new pokemon without submitting and arguing over detailed stat spreads. That leads to detailed replies on the proposed spreads, and the thread sidetracks into a stat spread discussion. It's obvious that we can't really prevent people from talking about stats early in the project. Nor do I think we should have every poll have a tangential stat discussion embedded in it.
So, just get the BST's settled early. That way, we can focus on the individual poll topics and not have the omnipresent BST discussion littered throughout every thread.
Neither of these is a good situation.
Personally, I would love stats to be deferred until later. But, for some reason, people on this project can't seem to discuss anything about a new pokemon without submitting and arguing over detailed stat spreads. That leads to detailed replies on the proposed spreads, and the thread sidetracks into a stat spread discussion. It's obvious that we can't really prevent people from talking about stats early in the project. Nor do I think we should have every poll have a tangential stat discussion embedded in it.
So, just get the BST's settled early. That way, we can focus on the individual poll topics and not have the omnipresent BST discussion littered throughout every thread.
But Doug, I don't see how we can objectively determine BSTs without move pool, because people keep tweaking theirs based on assumptions about the movepool.
We're going to have off topic discussions about the stats anyway, though I honestly believe that move pool is a wide enough and interesting enough subject that it may actually deter that, but who knows.
We're going to have off topic discussions about the stats anyway, though I honestly believe that move pool is a wide enough and interesting enough subject that it may actually deter that, but who knows.
Like I said, I personally would like to have the actual BST discussion very late in the process. I personally am totally comfortable with using terms like "Sweeper" "Tank", "Offensively Balanced", "Fast" etc.. -- without feeling it necessary to spit out a detailed BST spread in support of it. Unfortunately, other people can't seem to have any discussion without quoting stat spreads. I wouldn't have a problem if the spreads stopped there. But, it doesn't stop there. People then dive into a minutiae debate over the merits of a sweeper with 95 speed over 100 speed. Or whether a Defensive pokemon should have 120 HP or 95 HP. These are totally valid discussions, but they are very clearly BST debates. Unfortunately these debates get spawned every time somebody feels compelled to spit out a detailed stat line in support of their opinion. When this happens it sidetracks us from the actual point of the poll. Effectively, every poll becomes a BST debate with a little high-level design discussion thrown in for flavor. We have to set up a process that prevents that.
The point of the project is to make several high-level decisions early on, and then fill in the specifics later. I consider BST's to be something incredibly specific. I think it should come very late in our process. However, I acknowledge that I am very much in the minority on this opinion. Everyone else seems obsessed with jumping right into BST's before anything else has been decided. I am simply suggesting that we acknowledge that the community wants to do that. Why stand in their way? Just have the BST discussion early on and be done with it.
I am not representing my personal opinion here. I am proposing that we ratify what the community obviously wants. Just look at the current discussions. This project REALLY WANTS to get into BST's in a big hurry.
Another alternative is to spawn a BST Submission thread very early in the process. Tell people that are fascinated with BST submissions to take their conversation to that thread. Then late in the project, a few active participants from the BST Submission thread could be selected by the TL to submit "final" BST spreads that will be voted on by the community. Essentially, we would treat BST spreads just like artwork. A long lived thread will exist for people to discuss detailed spreads to their heart's content. Active and intelligent participants in that thread will be rewarded by being chosen as a BST submitter. The actual poll can then occur very late in the process, after many other aspects have been decided. Topic moderators have a convenient way to prevent tangential BST discussions in the CAP topics -- as there will always be a guaranteed place for detailed BST discussions to be "on-topic".
Hmmm... after typing that idea out -- I really like it.
The point of the project is to make several high-level decisions early on, and then fill in the specifics later. I consider BST's to be something incredibly specific. I think it should come very late in our process. However, I acknowledge that I am very much in the minority on this opinion. Everyone else seems obsessed with jumping right into BST's before anything else has been decided. I am simply suggesting that we acknowledge that the community wants to do that. Why stand in their way? Just have the BST discussion early on and be done with it.
I am not representing my personal opinion here. I am proposing that we ratify what the community obviously wants. Just look at the current discussions. This project REALLY WANTS to get into BST's in a big hurry.
Another alternative is to spawn a BST Submission thread very early in the process. Tell people that are fascinated with BST submissions to take their conversation to that thread. Then late in the project, a few active participants from the BST Submission thread could be selected by the TL to submit "final" BST spreads that will be voted on by the community. Essentially, we would treat BST spreads just like artwork. A long lived thread will exist for people to discuss detailed spreads to their heart's content. Active and intelligent participants in that thread will be rewarded by being chosen as a BST submitter. The actual poll can then occur very late in the process, after many other aspects have been decided. Topic moderators have a convenient way to prevent tangential BST discussions in the CAP topics -- as there will always be a guaranteed place for detailed BST discussions to be "on-topic".
Hmmm... after typing that idea out -- I really like it.
Same. That sounds like a good idea. Question is how early should it start? Right after typing?
We would need a style poll before anything usefull would come out of the BSS thread, maybe:
Type
Secondry type
Style/Build
Open BSS and Art threads
Ability
Stat spread
Art
Start sprite thread
Movepool
Sprite
Other stuff (hight, weight)
Type
Secondry type
Style/Build
Open BSS and Art threads
Ability
Stat spread
Art
Start sprite thread
Movepool
Sprite
Other stuff (hight, weight)
The BST Submission thread doesn't need to be "useful" early on. It's a discussion thread. It gives people a place to discuss this aspect of the pokemon with whatever information is available at the time. Personally I will not spend a lot of time in that thread until other aspects are firmed up, but that's my personal preference.
It's just like artwork. Why submit artwork when the build isn't determined? I don't know why, but I know some people just can't resist the urge to draw up ideas very early on. Instead of shutting those people down, give them a place to vent their ideas. If someone draws a fantastic frail sweeper early in the process, and then later polls vote for a bulky wall -- what do we do with the cool frail sweeper art? We do nothing. We ignore it. The artist that wasted their time is shit-outta-luck. If they didn't want to risk wasting their time, they should have waited to draw up the art. Nobody forces artists to draw artwork. But, it is obvious that some people REALLY want to draw and display the ideas they have -- as soon as they have it. If we don't have a dedicated thread to display it, they just post it in whatever thread is open at the time. Are those posts on-topic? No. But, should we infract people for enthusiasm? That's no fun. I don't mind being the bad guy, but it sucks slapping people's hand in those situations. So, just give them a thread and let them potentially waste their time. It's an outlet for something that is going to happen anyway -- whether we approve of it or not.
The same thing applies to BST submissions. Personally, I think it's pointless to discuss BST's early in the project. But, if it is going to happen anyway -- then let's just create a home thread for that discussion. Better to have wasted discussion there, than in the main poll threads.
It's just like artwork. Why submit artwork when the build isn't determined? I don't know why, but I know some people just can't resist the urge to draw up ideas very early on. Instead of shutting those people down, give them a place to vent their ideas. If someone draws a fantastic frail sweeper early in the process, and then later polls vote for a bulky wall -- what do we do with the cool frail sweeper art? We do nothing. We ignore it. The artist that wasted their time is shit-outta-luck. If they didn't want to risk wasting their time, they should have waited to draw up the art. Nobody forces artists to draw artwork. But, it is obvious that some people REALLY want to draw and display the ideas they have -- as soon as they have it. If we don't have a dedicated thread to display it, they just post it in whatever thread is open at the time. Are those posts on-topic? No. But, should we infract people for enthusiasm? That's no fun. I don't mind being the bad guy, but it sucks slapping people's hand in those situations. So, just give them a thread and let them potentially waste their time. It's an outlet for something that is going to happen anyway -- whether we approve of it or not.
The same thing applies to BST submissions. Personally, I think it's pointless to discuss BST's early in the project. But, if it is going to happen anyway -- then let's just create a home thread for that discussion. Better to have wasted discussion there, than in the main poll threads.
I can so relate to you with this statement. If you don't use every last bit of the BST limit, then you might as well not even try based on the majority of voters. That stat spread poll really, really destoryed a whole lot of confident in me at the time.
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