CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 5 (Build)

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How about since this is becoming a bit touchy that we ignore abilities for now :X

I'll even avoid my strong opinion on the spread for now, if only to direct discussion on what seems to be the most questionable of the three categories, Speed.

Forget about Chlorophyll or whatever. I think the general consensus on this Pokemon is that it needs to have at least one high Attack stat and be relatively bulky (meaning both defensive stats need to be at least good). This would most likely mean that either Speed or HP would have to be mediocre.

Call me a stickler for originality, but I would go so far as saying that high HP would be exponentially cooler on a Fire Pokemon than high Speed.

Comon guys, vote medium to low Speed :(

We want high HP!!!
 
Aldaron said:
Comon guys, vote medium to low Speed :(

We want high HP!!!
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I agree on medium speed, but not high HP. I'd rather sac some HP for higher defenses, which in turn makes it a better subseeder without being detrimental against anything except Seismic Toss Blissey, and even then if you subseed her it doesn't matter.
 
Gengar Master said:
Offensive: Physical
Defensive: Physical
Speed: Medium


I don't want this to become another Heatran, I want this to be a Physical Tank, that can subseed if needed. Chlorophyll isn't what I was thinking, I was thinking something like Flash Fire, or something like a Water Absorb, or Volt Absorb.

Something along the lines of,
HP-90
Attack-115
Defense-115
Sp. Attack- 70
Sp. Defense- 90
Speed- 65
Total- 545
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Guys, what are your thoughts? Am I the only one one who wants Physical around here? I also made a few changes.
 
speedwobbles225 said:
Special means its most likely going to be blissey fodder, unless Instant Solar Beam + Chlorophyll can 2hko, or it gets a boah set :/
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What about SubSeeding it to death?

Aldaron said:
How about since this is becoming a bit touchy that we ignore abilities for now :X

I'll even avoid my strong opinion on the spread for now, if only to direct discussion on what seems to be the most questionable of the three categories, Speed.

Forget about Chlorophyll or whatever. I think the general consensus on this Pokemon is that it needs to have at least one high Attack stat and be relatively bulky (meaning both defensive stats need to be at least good). This would most likely mean that either Speed or HP would have to be mediocre.
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Quite agree with you, let's drop the issue for now, though I prefer Hp to suffer more than speed. Call me a stickler but I like fast bulky sweepers. :(

Aldaron said:
Call me a stickler for originality, but I would go so far as saying that high HP would be exponentially cooler on a Fire Pokemon than high Speed.
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High Hp is but 110+ hp, hot damn. Does it really need that much HPs?

Aldaron said:
Comon guys, vote medium to low Speed :(

We want high HP!!!
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But I only heard you wanting High Hp and maybe Aki but that's like two people? It seems you need more support.
 
Outside of Garchomp is their really any bulky,fast sweepers. Shit like lucario and gengar only get by because of their very good defensive typings, this doesn't have that.
 
Luck said:
With no evs in speed a 70 base pokemon outspeed every thing in game in the sun or do you have invest some speed i can't remember? Gamefreak designed(or it turned out that way) Chlorophyll pokes with low speed so you would invest evs in speed and because you had to invest in speed you could not put evs in all the other area it need.

It is not about outspeeding is about having to use evs in speed.Which in this pokemon case means it going to dump 252 evs in special attack (which will probably be in 95-130 range),6 in speed and it has 252 evs to put where ever need .252 free evs on poke that does not have all the weakness Eggy,shiftry and jumpluff and probably will have better defenses that all of them.That should bother you some

Speed does matter,You at least get stop to eggy or shifty before they set up,fast means you don't even get that option (which some people like).Without full spread and movepool I can't not present a real argument but i have present a good warning.

My choices

Offense: Special
Defense:Mixed
Speed:Medium
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You're right. Speed does matter. I was noticing that people were voting for medium speed but considering Chlorophyll an option. If that's true, then there is little difference between Medium and Very Fast. For a base 70 to outspeed everything in the sun, it would require 252 and a +nature, which is unlikely. Some people may be forgetting that Chlorophyll DOUBLES the speed, which means unless it is extremely slow, it CAN outspeed just about anything.

You make a very good point that the ability to use EV on things other than speed, that is the scariest part of a pokemon with Chlorophyll and anything higher than roughly 50 base speed. It would outspeed everything and be free to dump EV's wherever it wants. If the other stats are anything decent (I can only assume they will be) then you have a powerful monster on your hands.

However Kingdra has 95's in all attacks and defenses AND has 85 base speed with Swift Swim AND one of the best typings in the game. With all that, Kingdra is not even considered a major OU threat. Some say it is BL. I've said from the beginning that I would like a "Kingdra of the Sun". That's what I am advocating with Mixed/Mixed/Fast. I don't think such a pokemon would be broken at all. Particularly with the SR weak this pokemon has, that so many people seem to be forgetting.

As far as other game precedent goes, there is overwhelming evidence that Gamefreak generally only gives Chlorophyll to pokes with roughly 50-55 base speed. I think Jumpluff and Shiftry are the only exceptions. Neither of those are really a threat because their other stats suck so badly. We would be significantly bucking the trend, if we gave Chlorophyll to a pokemon with a well-rounded stat spread.

But, maybe that's what needs to happen to make sun a legitimate weather threat. Other than the GrowthTran combo a while back, it doesn't seem like sun has any real applicability in the metagame. I don't think this pokemon needs to be a religious crusade for Sunny Day, but it would be nice if we could point to this pokemon and say that it filled a defined niche.
 
gyarados isn't fast right of the bat though is it, i was saying there isnt anything that is fast and really bulky straight away that is a sweeper.

The only thing that really is, is either uber or garchomp, yet by a lot of posts this is what people are wanting to make this.
 
Offensive:Physical
Defensive:Special
Speed:Fast

I have a spread that has both decent defensive stats and decent speed, and i hop this build wins so i can share my idea.

 
Aldaron said:
How about since this is becoming a bit touchy that we ignore abilities for now :X
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Even though this is a thread about the build, the build is pretty dependent on the ability, mostly when people are talking about speed or physical/special. While we can still debate over stuff, it's harder to give justification for our proposed spreads if we don't mention any abilities.

For example, I said something about a spread that has a high attack (maybe 100-110 or something), and lower SAtk (about 80) that could hit hard with either physical attacks or special attacks (though not at the same time). If I didn't mention an ability that would let it do that, most people wouldn't understand.
 
Latinoheat~ Despite that little flaw in my idea, I'm still prefer speed over hp when choosing which one to axe.

BTW~ Need 114 base stat in speed to have enough to outspeed everything under the sun without EVs on it.
 
Offense: Special (duh)
Defense: Physical
Speed: Medium

Honestly, we have way too many grass pokes that specialize in the special stats only...
 
As long as I'm here I guess since BST will be shortly I'll reconsider my spread.

70 HP seems a bit low at second glance. I want a good Subseeder but that's tough to pull off with low speed unless you can nuetralize your big threats.

Still want good defenses, and decent SA.

So:

85/70/90/115/105/60. BST 525.

Is 3HKO'd by CB Groos EQs with heavy defensive investment. Normal Groos EQs are LOL. Craps all over most special attackers, especially Bulky Waters. The Attack isn't really great out of the box, but since it is standard for Grass types to have Swords Dance, you could use an SD set fairly easily.

In the meantime it has high-powered special attacks that send foes away, and can outspeed Skarm with some speed investment. With Chlorophyll it can reach 438 without nature, and 480 with nature. The BST might make it a bit overpowered tho. If I had to I'd probably scrap 5 in each defense if I needed to bring it down to BST 510.

DougJustDoug said:
However Kingdra has 95's in all attacks and defenses AND has 85 base speed with Swift Swim AND one of the best typings in the game. With all that, Kingdra is not even considered a major OU threat. Some say it is BL. I've said from the beginning that I would like a "Kingdra of the Sun". That's what I am advocating with Mixed/Mixed/Fast. I don't think such a pokemon would be broken at all. Particularly with the SR weak this pokemon has, that so many people seem to be forgetting.
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Kingdra's biggest problem is movepool. It literally has Surf, Waterfall, Ice Beam, Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, and Hidden Power as attack options. In other words it gets horribly walled by other water types, especially those with Mirror Coat. Blastoise and Tentacruel counter it entirely. Poliwrath can eat a Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor and Sub up, then Focus Punch. Empoleon also walls it fairly well. CM Slowbro too, come to think of it.
 
like this one alot except i would take 5 hp of and add to speed.

Under the impression their is gonna be a spillover poll for speed, or are they not as close as they seem.
 
Here is mine:
Attack-50/96
Defense-86
SpAtt-50/96
Speed-105
SpDef-101
Hit Points-102

I tried to keep it fast and bulky, and still able to dish out damage if necessary.

Some stats:

WIth 252/252 in AttackinStat/Speed, it has 291/341, and with Solar Power, it gets boosted up to 433, and add in a Life Orb, it gets up to 562, if i did the math right. It may be too suicidal, but i felt that it was one option, as it still has the decent defenses.
 
Offensive: Mixed
Defensive: Mixed
Speed: Medium

I like it somewhat bulky with options on either side.
 
yo, mixed offensive voters. i'm begging you to change your votes to physical. we'll be kind when it comes to special attack. special attack will still be useable on this dude if you vote for physical.

we need all the votes we can get to make this baby a physical hitter. right now special is going to win, and then this thing is gonna get boring!
 
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