I hear you. but... I can point out Arcanine and Kingdra (can't think of others off the top of my head) as counter examples. Basically, as a spread creator, I am going to use all the BST allotted. That makes my spread more appealing, because it allows me to cover everything I want. I could easily cut out 10 Speed right now and give you a spread with 530 BST, but 94 is always better than 84 when it comes to Speed. If I am told the limit is 530, I will do that, but when other people can use up to 540, why would I give myself 10 less points to work with?
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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 5 (Build)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
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I hear you. but... I can point out Arcanine and Kingdra (can't think of others off the top of my head) as counter examples. Basically, as a spread creator, I am going to use all the BST allotted. That makes my spread more appealing, because it allows me to cover everything I want. I could easily cut out 10 Speed right now and give you a spread with 530 BST, but 94 is always better than 84 when it comes to Speed. If I am told the limit is 530, I will do that, but when other people can use up to 540, why would I give myself 10 less points to work with?
Well before I deleted said post for reason involving revising said spreads, people were constantly stating it need to be different between Nape and Tran and so I had a wacky idea. I had decided to combine parts of their spreads into this pokemon and make kick-ass but at least 535 or below. I need more thought and revising.
Aldaron said:
Well gee Aldaron, Maybe if I weren't using an entire 75 less BST this might outclass Heatran in something. Oh wait, it does: it isn't 4x weak to EQ or weak to Surf. In all likelihood it will have Swords Dance, and it has a usable secondary STAB unless Flash Cannon suddenly becomes popular.
Oh yeah, it also has SubSeed, may have powders, Synthesis, and in general beats the ever-loving tar out of Heatran when it comes to team support.
Thank you Aldaron for yet another stats-deep analysis of a pokemon. What would I do without your snark on the fact this operates completely differently from Heatran despite somehow being barely outclassed by Heatran statwise by several points despite working off 75 less BST.
I now fully expect you to now give me a similarly searing analysis on how Flygon fails vs. Salamence. Sure the typing is different and Salamence is equal or superior in every stat, but quite frankly it is clear Nintendo screwed up with Flygon, it's just a mini-Salamence.
I'm fine with a unique move, as long as it's a dual-type move. Like, it's both Fire and Grass type.
Yes, this is ridiculously complicated. It's also unnecessary to be going about making new moves when we have all these existing Pokemon moves. I say if we're going to make something different, let's make something really, really different moves-wise.
Uhh, you're being excessively pedantic with that clarification. But alright wise guy, "Sunny Day." It's still the same thing, lol.
Also, when did I ever say that something with low HP cannot take hits? I said it is not efficient. I don't like repeating myself, but since you decided to spread false information by saying "while not actually aiding his ability to do anything else," I have no choice. Sighs.
Let's take your Dusknoir example. I'm going to go with a mixed spread, since that seems to be the consensus here. 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SpD Bold gives 294 HP / 363 Def / 346 SpD. This is 294 * 363 = 106722 for Defense, and 294 * 346 = 101724 for Special Defense. Note, this is with 45 HP / 135 Def / 135 SpD as its base stats. Let's just even out those stats to 105 HP / 105 Def / 105 SpD (same total) and using the same spread, we get 414 HP / 297 Def / 286 SpD. This yields 414 * 297 = 122958 for Defense and 118404 for Special Defense. Let's compare these two stats...122958 / 106722 = approximately 15.21% more efficient defensively and 118404 / 101724 = 16.40 % more efficient special defensively. Are you saying more than a 15% increase (meaning we have essentially given it more than +nature increases for two stats) is "not actually aiding its ability to do anything else"?
I'm sorry Dane, but in your effort to see this Pokemon maximize a decidedly overdone strategy, you have ignored the obvious truth. You want to drop its HP (and thereby obviously decrease its overall defensive efficiency) in order to help it with some secondary, overplayed strategy. That is entirely unacceptable.
Um...what faulty logic lol. "Duh." Since when does having HP reduce its ability to run multiple sets? There is absolutely no dichotomy between high HP and multiple sets, lol.
EDIT: Deck Knight, lol. First, I clearly stated I was discussing stats and the special move pool. You assumed anything else. Please do not assume, it makes you look like.... In terms of stats your spread is clearly inferior to Heatran, and in terms of Special move pool this will be inferior to Heatran unless we decide to give it Earth Power, Power Gem, Shadow Ball, Dragon Pulse, Ice Beam etc. etc. I think I am allowed to make that assumption that we won't.
Also, Flygon isn't outclassed in nearly every way by Salamence, it is outclassed in nearly every way by Garchomp. Would you like to argue this with me? Don't. Flygon gets Levitate, U-turn and Roost. Whoopie. Got anything else, big guy?
Hyra, are you joking? Flygon isn't outclassed by Garchomp...It gets Levitate, Roost and U-turn (o and Earth Power I guess (lol))...how is this not outclassed by Garchomp...Garchomp has Swords Dance, Outrage, Crunch, Fire Fang, more Attack, more Speed, more general bulking ability...Not to mention the Shoddy usage statistics clearly support me when I say that Garchomp pretty much completely outclasses Flygon.
I purposely used Mence instead of Garchomp for my point because Heatran and this have different types, different abilities (maybe, I still like the idea of Flash Fire :-D), and a different core movepool for the most part. Sure, they'll both rape with Overheat(Draco Meteor), but otherwise you're looking at STAB EQ vs. STAB Aerial Ace, Flygon's SR resist to Mence's SR Weak, and complete immunity to Electric vs. nuetrality.
Aldaron said:
touche /sarc.
High HP means it's not as efficient to run Subseed. Therefore, high hp runs less efficient sets.
You still haven't said how high hp helps him do anything else. Ok, he might take a hit slightly better overall. Does this help him actually do any specific task better, other than being a generic wall? No, it just means he might be able to do it a little longer. That doesn't mean he does it better, just longer.
Low HP on the other hand, let's him subseed better, because he can actually Sub more than 5 times without going broke.
I don't see how Sunny Day and Chlorophyll are the same thing. In fact, I specifically mentioned at least one other ability that operates under Sunny Day that ISN'T chlorophyll, so it's hardly the same thing.
Stop trying to act like an ass to prove your point. You haven't repeated any useful information. This is the first time you've posted any numbers, before now you've just been saying "it's better, because it is".
I also love how you keep calling subseeding an overdone strategy. It's used by maybe three Pokemon. Sceptile, Breloom, and Celebi. Breloom doesn't even necessarily use it, he often just Spore/SubPunches. Celebi can do so much it may or may not even use it. That leaves Sceptile who uses it more often than not, but still isn't forced to as it has Swords Dance and Choice sets.
You still haven't said how high hp helps him do anything else. Ok, he might take a hit slightly better overall. Does this help him actually do any specific task better, other than being a generic wall? No, it just means he might be able to do it a little longer. That doesn't mean he does it better, just longer.
Low HP on the other hand, let's him subseed better, because he can actually Sub more than 5 times without going broke.
I don't see how Sunny Day and Chlorophyll are the same thing. In fact, I specifically mentioned at least one other ability that operates under Sunny Day that ISN'T chlorophyll, so it's hardly the same thing.
Stop trying to act like an ass to prove your point. You haven't repeated any useful information. This is the first time you've posted any numbers, before now you've just been saying "it's better, because it is".
I also love how you keep calling subseeding an overdone strategy. It's used by maybe three Pokemon. Sceptile, Breloom, and Celebi. Breloom doesn't even necessarily use it, he often just Spore/SubPunches. Celebi can do so much it may or may not even use it. That leaves Sceptile who uses it more often than not, but still isn't forced to as it has Swords Dance and Choice sets.
Oops..... I meant he is entirely outclassed..... Deck Knight was arguing one thing and I was thinking the other.....
I figured that. That was the only reason I could see for using Mence over Chomp in that example.
Jumpluff? Jumpluff's not completely terrible, is it? Oh, bother...
Honestly, I don't think it needs 100+ HP. High HP, sure, but I think 100+ might be pushing it if we want the Pokemon to be relatively offensive without stat boosts, which I didn't think we were giving this Pokemon.
Aldaron said:
Heatran is forced to use HP Grass for a Grass move. This will have no such limitation. This can use both Grass and Ice attacks(in the form of HP Ice) simultaneously. Earth Power isn't completely out of the question either.
Even making your assumptions, the only thing that would be theoretically inferior is a Specs set. Find me ANY pokemon in OU that does Specs better than Heatran. Nevermind that isn't even really the case. STAB Overheat, STAB Leaf Storm, and HP Ice basically say "yur dead" to anything that would want to switch in, bar Heatran which is this thing's natural counter anyway. Even then you could give it HP Ground instead and screw Heatran. That would make Mence a pain. Give it Earth Power though, and congratulations, Overheat/Leaf Storm/HP Ice/Earth Power is uncounterable unless people start bringing sexy Moltres back. Then switch HP Ice to HP Rock and Mence is marginally less effective while 'Tres literally gets stoned. STAB Grass is a HUGE difference. STAB Steel does crap for STAB Fire, it just hits Rocks hard. Grass hits Rocks hard and throws in Grounds and Waters free of charge.
EDIT: Also if this gets Chlorophyll a Life Orb set will be beast. Psuedopass it Sunny Day and Flamethrower/Energy Ball/Earth Power/HP Ice will smash things to bits (except Blissey pretty much.)
Uhh Dane, you might want to stop there. I clearly posted numbers as to why high HP was more efficient in the other topic. If you haven't been keeping up, that is your own fault. However, once again, please do not spread false information. I don't see how objectively proving a point makes me an ass.
This is the second time you have blatantly spread false information; first by stating that higher HP doesn't aid his ability to do anything else, when clearly it increases his ability to be a mixed wall, and second by stating I did not provide numbers. I am sorry, but I am both tired of repeating myself and seeing you continually spread false information.
As for your continued need to remain pedantic with the ability bit, it doesn't matter which ability / move you were referring to, since my point was being efficient regardless of that strategy. Whether Flower Gift or Chlorophyll, it didn't really matter.
Also, your claim that low HP allows him to SubSeed better is itself severely flawed. It merely lets it suck HP at a higher percentage...it doesn't necessarily allow him to SubSeed more efficiently.
<Surgo> "low HP is better for subseed" is like saying that "low HP is better for explosion"
<Surgo> while in part truth, it's mostly nonsense
and
<Carl> the main goal of sub seed is to slowly whittle away your opponent's hp while protecting yourself
<Carl> so i don't see why hp makes a difference in that sense
This is straight from two very respected battlers. Forget my opinion, the bottom line is that having low or high HP in the end really is insignificant for SubSeeding. You think it would make a difference, but it very rarely does.
Anyway, got anymore amazing statements for us, Dane?
@Deck Knight, I already edited my post. I wanted to throw that part in there, but decided to take it back haha. Anyway, my point to you was a lot less absolute than my point to Dane. Whereas the HP bit is just obvious knowledge (I have no idea how he still doesn't understand this), our points are too subjective to definitively state. Still, the general idea I was trying to sarcastically convey was that your spread would literally make it like Heatran, which I still think it does. I think there are ways to separate it from that niche even with 75 less BST. But that's just me ;)
This is the second time you have blatantly spread false information; first by stating that higher HP doesn't aid his ability to do anything else, when clearly it increases his ability to be a mixed wall, and second by stating I did not provide numbers. I am sorry, but I am both tired of repeating myself and seeing you continually spread false information.
As for your continued need to remain pedantic with the ability bit, it doesn't matter which ability / move you were referring to, since my point was being efficient regardless of that strategy. Whether Flower Gift or Chlorophyll, it didn't really matter.
Also, your claim that low HP allows him to SubSeed better is itself severely flawed. It merely lets it suck HP at a higher percentage...it doesn't necessarily allow him to SubSeed more efficiently.
<Surgo> "low HP is better for subseed" is like saying that "low HP is better for explosion"
<Surgo> while in part truth, it's mostly nonsense
and
<Carl> the main goal of sub seed is to slowly whittle away your opponent's hp while protecting yourself
<Carl> so i don't see why hp makes a difference in that sense
This is straight from two very respected battlers. Forget my opinion, the bottom line is that having low or high HP in the end really is insignificant for SubSeeding. You think it would make a difference, but it very rarely does.
Anyway, got anymore amazing statements for us, Dane?
@Deck Knight, I already edited my post. I wanted to throw that part in there, but decided to take it back haha. Anyway, my point to you was a lot less absolute than my point to Dane. Whereas the HP bit is just obvious knowledge (I have no idea how he still doesn't understand this), our points are too subjective to definitively state. Still, the general idea I was trying to sarcastically convey was that your spread would literally make it like Heatran, which I still think it does. I think there are ways to separate it from that niche even with 75 less BST. But that's just me ;)
My post above illustrates the insanity of Heatran somehow being unconditionally better than this. For recap:
w/out appealing to Chlorophyll or Earth Power:
STAB Leaf Storm and STAB Overheat on a Specs set is completely BRUTAL and unparrallelled anywhere else. Seriously, switching into a Specs set would be Russian Roulette. Even the pokemon that resist both would have to worry about a backup Hidden Power. Ground in Heatran's case and Ice in Mence's.
Add Earth Power (no Chlorophyll):
Hiya Heatran, random Fires. This takes away the need for HP Ground and just leaves you with Hidden Power for Rock or Ice. Rock if you fear the resurgence of Moltres, or Ice if you want to bid Mence a good day finally and forever.
Add Chlorophyll (no Earth Power)
Oh laudy. Just the idea of something with 404+ potential speed in the sun using Specs Overheat is scary. It's completely Nuketastic. Not only that, if fat Tyranitar shows up and eats Leaf Storm or Grass Knot instead, game over.
Add Both:
One word: BEAST. Forget Specs, use Life Orb or Expert Belt here for the win.
Offensive: Special. If we give this thing Leech Seed, chances are, it's gonna get around Special Walls easily, (mainly Blissey), so I find being Special would be ok.
Defensive: Special. Special is definitely a good choice, as the Fire/Grass combo works well to take most special hits.
Speed: Fast. I'm not really interested in Chlorophyll, mainly because of the turn limits, and I'm just in love with fast subseeders.
Defensive: Special. Special is definitely a good choice, as the Fire/Grass combo works well to take most special hits.
Speed: Fast. I'm not really interested in Chlorophyll, mainly because of the turn limits, and I'm just in love with fast subseeders.
Not unconditionally better, Deck Knight, just probably better. Forgetting about moves for a second, your spread has inferior defensive capability. One minus.
Your spread also has inferior offensive capability. Two minuses.
Your spread has inferior Speed, three minuses.
I was only talking about the Spread and the special move pool, so at least for the spread part, I am right.
Now I'd prefer if we discussed the special move pool until after we give it moves because I honestly can't state anything definitive, I can only guess like I did before. However, because Heatran gets Earth Power, Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse, we would certainly have to give this moves beyond its Fire / Grass ones to allow it to have the same offensive prowess as Heatran...which is meh to me. I honestly hated how you guys decided to throw stuff like Earth Power, Superpower and ThunderPunch on Syclant just because.
But like I said, we'll see. I would hate to have this be a mini-Heatran. I would also hate to have justify it not being one by giving it moves like you guys did to Syclant.
Now, like you said, this has a plethora of options given to it from its Grass typing, while Heatran really only gets stuff like Metal Sound and Flash Cannon from its Steel typing. Hey, maybe that will throw it over the hump...but I'm not too sure about that.
Your spread also has inferior offensive capability. Two minuses.
Your spread has inferior Speed, three minuses.
I was only talking about the Spread and the special move pool, so at least for the spread part, I am right.
Now I'd prefer if we discussed the special move pool until after we give it moves because I honestly can't state anything definitive, I can only guess like I did before. However, because Heatran gets Earth Power, Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse, we would certainly have to give this moves beyond its Fire / Grass ones to allow it to have the same offensive prowess as Heatran...which is meh to me. I honestly hated how you guys decided to throw stuff like Earth Power, Superpower and ThunderPunch on Syclant just because.
But like I said, we'll see. I would hate to have this be a mini-Heatran. I would also hate to have justify it not being one by giving it moves like you guys did to Syclant.
Now, like you said, this has a plethora of options given to it from its Grass typing, while Heatran really only gets stuff like Metal Sound and Flash Cannon from its Steel typing. Hey, maybe that will throw it over the hump...but I'm not too sure about that.
Instead of reading all of the off-topic arguing I'll just vote:
Offense: Special
Power whip is neat but physical fire moves stink. Flare blitz recoil removes the potential for mixed defense/offense. As such I'd stick to the reliable special attacks.
Defense: Mixed
I can't really imagine this thing taking hits well from a specific side (as a physical or special wall). It makes more sense for it to be able to take both hits similarly well if not equally. Personally I don't want this to be a wall at all. Or a subseeder. There are too many usable subseeders to add another one.
Speed: Medium
When I think of this guy I think of Mamoswine speed. Not lighting fast, but faster than it looks (*will look).
Offense: Special
Power whip is neat but physical fire moves stink. Flare blitz recoil removes the potential for mixed defense/offense. As such I'd stick to the reliable special attacks.
Defense: Mixed
I can't really imagine this thing taking hits well from a specific side (as a physical or special wall). It makes more sense for it to be able to take both hits similarly well if not equally. Personally I don't want this to be a wall at all. Or a subseeder. There are too many usable subseeders to add another one.
Speed: Medium
When I think of this guy I think of Mamoswine speed. Not lighting fast, but faster than it looks (*will look).
Only if you measure offensive capability in raw stats and not in actual coverage. Leaf Storm is infinitely more powerful than anything Heatran has (the Overheat point is moot, Heatran's OH is superior). Leaf Storm BP: 210 after STAB. Dragon Pulse/Earth Power: 90. Dark Pulse: 80. The list of pokemon that can switch into both Overheat and Leaf Storm is limited to, you guessed it, Fire types and Dragon/Fliers (and like, Blissey).
Ex:
Max SA Modest Specs Leaf Storm on 40/0 Garchomp: 108-127%. Can Heatran take out Chomp? Yes, but only with Dragon Pulse or HP Ice, which constitute a fairly guilt-free switchin for some other things.
Same stats Vs Standard Curselax (168/220): 47-56%.
Yeah, kinda depressing. Still hits harder than anything Heatran can muster on the Thick Fat versions.
Same Stats vs. Bulkydos: 82-97%. A solid 2HKO, and OHKO with rocks down or if Gyarados has any damage really.
Also, your "spread" point is idiotic. It's 525 vs. 600. Give me 545 and I'll bump the SA right up to 135, will that make you happy? I doubt it. Otherwise this will always be inferior offensively and/or defensively to Heatran in some manner based on the sheer fact Heatran is padded with 75 more stat points. Or I cold scrap speed down to Torkoal levels (Base 20) and boost SA by 20 and HP/ Defense by 10 and make your criticisms moot, but I doubt we'd support such blatant twinkery just to one-up Heatran.
Let's look at it from the other direction. Say we make it spec. It has access to Leaf Storm, Overheat, and HP Ice/Ground. I think this is far too powerful even without earth power. I think it is better to make it physical because we could prevent it from getting strong ice/ground moves which would essentially eliminate anything that could be a counter. If it meets something it can't handle with fire and grass, switch or seed. I don't want it to be invincible.
Please, someone propose more than two counters to this set:
Overheat, Leaf Storm, HP Ice/Rock, Earth Power/Leech Seed
Please, someone propose more than two counters to this set:
Overheat, Leaf Storm, HP Ice/Rock, Earth Power/Leech Seed
Offensive: Special
Defensive: Mixed
Speed: Fast
Defensive: Mixed
Speed: Fast
I've got two. Blissey and This Pokemon.
No, seriously, this Pokemon seems to completely own itself.
This is one of those time where I said "WTF had happened" but my guess is Aldardon giving everyone a lecture on how HP doesn't affect the sub-seed stragary, how higher HP is better with decent defense, and stuff I think I missed.
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