I updated the post! I try hard to avoid going off anecdotal data for these exact reasons; idk what was happening whenever I was online ;_;
I'll be sure to include write-ups for multiple sets whenever they exist going forward. Appreciate you both!
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Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter dhelmise
- Start date
I updated the post! I try hard to avoid going off anecdotal data for these exact reasons; idk what was happening whenever I was online ;_;
I'll be sure to include write-ups for multiple sets whenever they exist going forward. Appreciate you both!
Only 3 megas with enough usage for our proper is crazy and genuinely a bit disheartening. I know I've said it before, but somehow the mega situation just keeps getting more dire....I refuse to accept that this is all the tier has in terms of viable megas. It's probably a mix of new toy syndrome, megas having lower average usage because of the one per team limit (not that it stopped ~10-12 megas in gen 6/7...) and the playebrase perception changes of gen 9 (in my experience at least, not saying to be mean there's less variety in the current gen than there was back in gen 6/7, even in sv) but even all those excuses can't explain the fact that the mega usage situation has only gotten MORE extreme. Only one ban this month to...
I can't accept the idea that there's not more viable megas-lopunny, the Charizards, Delphox, and a few others at minimum should be ou proper. I think being a smaller tier probably has an impact as well. But still its crazy and makes me wonder if megas are less balanced/more a problem than I thought even in singles....but they're still fun so I'm still glad they're here. But man, I miss gen 6/7 when there was more variety and a lot of megas saw play. But why does the mega usage situation just keep getting more extreme? That's what I can't understand. The three that are in ou are good, and new, but I really don't think they're so good to really stranglehold the mega slot that much....right?
I can't accept the idea that there's not more viable megas-lopunny, the Charizards, Delphox, and a few others at minimum should be ou proper. I think being a smaller tier probably has an impact as well. But still its crazy and makes me wonder if megas are less balanced/more a problem than I thought even in singles....but they're still fun so I'm still glad they're here. But man, I miss gen 6/7 when there was more variety and a lot of megas saw play. But why does the mega usage situation just keep getting more extreme? That's what I can't understand. The three that are in ou are good, and new, but I really don't think they're so good to really stranglehold the mega slot that much....right?
It looks that way on paper, but a well-formed team strategy is enough to make a vast number of mons usable. As someone who regularly tests teams & mons in T500 & against some Top 10, you can use the less-explored characters like Snorlax, Inteleon, & Mega Slowbro & find success.
:clefable::clefable-mega:
Clefable has been popping off lately in usage, and for good reason. My opinion of this mon keeps getting better and better, and I would vote S- for it on the VR today. There is some interesting nuance in the sets it can run.
| :sv/clefable: Clefable @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers Ability: Magic Guard Level: 50 EVs: 32 HP / 32 Def / 2 SpD OR 32 HP / 21 Def / 13 Spe Bold Nature - Moonblast - Flamethrower - Moonlight - Stealth Rock | :sv/clefable: Clefable @ Leftovers Ability: Unaware Level: 50 EVs: 32 HP / 32 Def / 2 SpD OR 32 HP / 21 Def / 13 Spe Bold Nature - Moonblast - Flamethrower - Moonlight - Calm Mind | :sv/clefable-mega: Clefable-Mega @ Clefablite Ability: Unaware / Magic Guard Level: 50 EVs: 31 HP / 32 Def / 3 Spe OR 31 HP / 12 Def / 23 Spe Bold Nature - Moonblast - Flamethrower - Moonlight - Stealth Rock / Calm Mind |
All Clefable sets share some points. They all act as solid checks and counters to many foes like (Mega) Garchomp (Z), Mega Absol Z, Dragapult, Hamurott, Mega Golisopod, Hydreigon, and Pawmot; although these matchups depend on what EV spread is being used and what set these threats use. Will-O Hex Dragapult can beat Clefable after Wisping in on the switch once, Life Orb Swords Dance Garchomp with Poison Jab makes quick work of non-Unaware variants, Pawmot forces Moonlight and beats it on a 2nd switch in attempt, Mega Golisopod can run Speed investment and Iron Head to beat no Speed investment Clefable.
Speed investment depends entirely on whether you want to consistently beat Mega Golisopod with Clefable or not, as 32 Spe Mega Golisopod will outrun no investment Clefable, which is not too uncommon given that Speed investment allows Mega Golisopod to outrun Iron Defense Corviknight to get a huge +2 Close Combat first. Fortunately, most of these Mega Golisopods do not run Iron Head, and thus do not beat Clefable. However, speed invested Mega Golisopods with Iron Head doesn't sound too far fetched given that Clefable is becoming more and more common.
Mega Clefable is a particular case, thanks to the increased base Speed. 3 Speed EVs is all you need to outrun Adamant 32 Spe Mega Golisopod, while 23 Speed puts you ahead of Jolly Kingambit and Mega Mawile; though the former usually runs Low Kick over Iron Head anyway, and the latter is not OU by usage.
This speed investment comes at a cost however, as Clefable is well known for barely avoiding 2HKOes. For example, while a 32+ defense Clefable can quite consistently avoid a KO from Pawmot's Double Shock into Ice Punch after Leftovers recovery from full, 21+ defense Clefable is much more prone to getting KOed by that.
tl;dr Whether you want to beat Mega Golisopod will change your Clefable and your team a bit as you must concede other calcs, and given how popular Mega Golisopod is, I recommend making that decision early.
A rule of thumb you can follow is to run 32+ Def if going Rocky Helmet, while 21+ Def variants are better off running Leftovers.
Now, onto each individual set.
My favorite one is Magic Guard with Rocky Helmet, which gives a good mix of utility and threat thanks to Helmet's recoil punishing Ceaseless Edge, Iron Head-less Mega Golisopod, and forces Corviknight to Roost much more often due to punishing both Brave Bird and U-turn, making it much more irritating for it when Clefable spams Stealth Rock and Flamethrower. Most Clefable though will run Leftovers, which gives you more survivability, pairs well with Magic Guard for guaranteed healing, and helps matching better into Life Orb Dragapult. I do not recommend Calm Mind on this set, as it makes Clefable incredibly passive against any team running Glowking (25% of the meta share) if you cannot at least make progress with Stealth Rock.
Unaware Clefable works better into Stall, or specific Balance teams with extra hazard control, particularly Toxic Spikes counterplay, and status absorption. Calm Mind does work well here, giving you a great matchup into opposing Calm Mind users, including Espathra and Volcarona (Quiver Dance). Unaware Clefable also happens to be the single best mon against Hawlucha, Grassy Terrain teams' main sweeper. Naturally, it does the best against various Attack boosters: Annihilape, Mega Absol Z, Garchomp, Blaziken...
Mega Clefable gives you the Speed advantage of outrunning Mega Golisopod without compromising your bulk, and Magic Bounce is obviously a great ability. Most of the time, this Clefable will run Unaware in base form just in case you need it, but Magic Guard helping against hazards can still be valuable; Staying in base form will sometimes be needed as the part Flying type can actually make you worse into some teams, and in those cases Magic Guard will often be better than Unaware. While Calm Mind thuds into Glowking all the same as the other Clefable sets, Mega Clefable is often found in more offensive teams with many ways to pressure it, and it frontloads its utility in Magic Bounce which is much more proactive and does not really matter if there is a Clefable counter in the opposing team, so it is a justifiable pick.
Wish/Protect is a possible option, though it always feels bad to have to run 2 moves to heal and is so abusable I do not recommend running it.
Speed investment depends entirely on whether you want to consistently beat Mega Golisopod with Clefable or not, as 32 Spe Mega Golisopod will outrun no investment Clefable, which is not too uncommon given that Speed investment allows Mega Golisopod to outrun Iron Defense Corviknight to get a huge +2 Close Combat first. Fortunately, most of these Mega Golisopods do not run Iron Head, and thus do not beat Clefable. However, speed invested Mega Golisopods with Iron Head doesn't sound too far fetched given that Clefable is becoming more and more common.
Mega Clefable is a particular case, thanks to the increased base Speed. 3 Speed EVs is all you need to outrun Adamant 32 Spe Mega Golisopod, while 23 Speed puts you ahead of Jolly Kingambit and Mega Mawile; though the former usually runs Low Kick over Iron Head anyway, and the latter is not OU by usage.
This speed investment comes at a cost however, as Clefable is well known for barely avoiding 2HKOes. For example, while a 32+ defense Clefable can quite consistently avoid a KO from Pawmot's Double Shock into Ice Punch after Leftovers recovery from full, 21+ defense Clefable is much more prone to getting KOed by that.
tl;dr Whether you want to beat Mega Golisopod will change your Clefable and your team a bit as you must concede other calcs, and given how popular Mega Golisopod is, I recommend making that decision early.
A rule of thumb you can follow is to run 32+ Def if going Rocky Helmet, while 21+ Def variants are better off running Leftovers.
Now, onto each individual set.
My favorite one is Magic Guard with Rocky Helmet, which gives a good mix of utility and threat thanks to Helmet's recoil punishing Ceaseless Edge, Iron Head-less Mega Golisopod, and forces Corviknight to Roost much more often due to punishing both Brave Bird and U-turn, making it much more irritating for it when Clefable spams Stealth Rock and Flamethrower. Most Clefable though will run Leftovers, which gives you more survivability, pairs well with Magic Guard for guaranteed healing, and helps matching better into Life Orb Dragapult. I do not recommend Calm Mind on this set, as it makes Clefable incredibly passive against any team running Glowking (25% of the meta share) if you cannot at least make progress with Stealth Rock.
Unaware Clefable works better into Stall, or specific Balance teams with extra hazard control, particularly Toxic Spikes counterplay, and status absorption. Calm Mind does work well here, giving you a great matchup into opposing Calm Mind users, including Espathra and Volcarona (Quiver Dance). Unaware Clefable also happens to be the single best mon against Hawlucha, Grassy Terrain teams' main sweeper. Naturally, it does the best against various Attack boosters: Annihilape, Mega Absol Z, Garchomp, Blaziken...
Mega Clefable gives you the Speed advantage of outrunning Mega Golisopod without compromising your bulk, and Magic Bounce is obviously a great ability. Most of the time, this Clefable will run Unaware in base form just in case you need it, but Magic Guard helping against hazards can still be valuable; Staying in base form will sometimes be needed as the part Flying type can actually make you worse into some teams, and in those cases Magic Guard will often be better than Unaware. While Calm Mind thuds into Glowking all the same as the other Clefable sets, Mega Clefable is often found in more offensive teams with many ways to pressure it, and it frontloads its utility in Magic Bounce which is much more proactive and does not really matter if there is a Clefable counter in the opposing team, so it is a justifiable pick.
Wish/Protect is a possible option, though it always feels bad to have to run 2 moves to heal and is so abusable I do not recommend running it.
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:sneasler: has been quickbanned. I think this happened a while ago but I haven't seen anyone talk about it. Anyway, heres the post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/champions-ou-tiering-updates.3780556/post-11173576
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I think it's about time to discuss mega mythicals (AKA all Special Pokemon with 600 BST without evolutionary line)
:Darkrai-Mega: Turning a fast special sweeper into a bulky mix attacker is quite interesting choice, I do not see :Darkrai-Mega: getting banned unless :Darkrai: base form gets banned itself but I feel this would add a lot of element of surprise to metagame, cause both Mega Evolution and Base From are completely different they are rather suffering through identity crisis to say the least, base Z-A OU it will be not used much and remain kind of mid tier mega despite being powerhouse and ability could improve performance by a lot but assuming it would be bad dreams+ sleep ban will leave it with not ability
:Heatran-Mega: quite dangerous with 175 special attack, stab move will hard regardless of investment most unhealthy mega in my opinion cause it can tank so much while dealing way more then you can imagine, I hope it does not get earth eater or levitate cause then it would be instant ban in my opinion , I do not like it personally but I feel like it can be centralzing or over centralzing if not banned, I'm not on instant ban but instant suspect test would be nice
:Magearna-Mega: Well we all know base form :Magearna: is more then likely to be banned so It will be 99.99%
:Zeraora-Mega: this is mega evolution I hope does not get banned a lot of personal biased
:Darkrai-Mega: Turning a fast special sweeper into a bulky mix attacker is quite interesting choice, I do not see :Darkrai-Mega: getting banned unless :Darkrai: base form gets banned itself but I feel this would add a lot of element of surprise to metagame, cause both Mega Evolution and Base From are completely different they are rather suffering through identity crisis to say the least, base Z-A OU it will be not used much and remain kind of mid tier mega despite being powerhouse and ability could improve performance by a lot but assuming it would be bad dreams+ sleep ban will leave it with not ability
:Heatran-Mega: quite dangerous with 175 special attack, stab move will hard regardless of investment most unhealthy mega in my opinion cause it can tank so much while dealing way more then you can imagine, I hope it does not get earth eater or levitate cause then it would be instant ban in my opinion , I do not like it personally but I feel like it can be centralzing or over centralzing if not banned, I'm not on instant ban but instant suspect test would be nice
:Magearna-Mega: Well we all know base form :Magearna: is more then likely to be banned so It will be 99.99%
:Zeraora-Mega: this is mega evolution I hope does not get banned a lot of personal biased
It's hard to talk about them with knowing abilities. I'm of the controversial opinion that all legendary/mythicals should be banned with a few exceptions like the birds or like celebi (or more controversy maybe buff the bad legends, make all legends broken and keep them all out of main competitive formats) but I know that's a hot take.
I definitely think Darkrai and mag should be banned, especially mag, but if the za ou tier was any indication may will probably be tier defining and highly controversial but not banned for a long long time. The mega though yeah that thing is insta ban. I've never thought Darkrai in our was a good idea tbh
Mega heatran is going to need a real bad ability to be reasonable for ou imo. This thing better be banned otherwise it becomes tier defining and likely will make the mega variety severely limited
Zeraora is very ability dependant, I would really rather not have another 150+ speed 150+ attacking stats Pokemon running around but maybe that's just me. But impossible to say without the ability
Darkrai is probably the most ability dependant. It might end up really bad, it very well also might get a busted ability considering it's the final boss of the dlc and all. There's really no way to judge its competitive viability right now
In my opinion, there's a non-zero chance :Darkrai-Mega: will get Shadow Tag as its Ability:
"Its dark power blocks out the sun, plunging the surrounding area into darkness. There is no escaping its evil eye."
As we saw with :Gengar-Mega:, this is probably getting it banned to Ubers, at the very least.
I really, really hope it doesn't get Shadow Tag. For its own sake.
I think you mean is restricted legendaries should be banned which most are other then Kyurem and Zamazenta in SV OU tier but problem is most mythicals at 600 BST are quite weak with some exception such as Darkrai, Gensect, and Magerna and Zeraora is quite strong but not uber material tbh
Potential Cores For Upcoming Mega Mythicals
(Regulation M-D Theorycraft)
(Regulation M-D Theorycraft)
A core in 6v6 singles is typically a group of two or three Pokémon that work together with strong synergy to form the main strategic backbone of a team (:samurott-hisui:, :corviknight:, :garchomp:). The objective is to build a core so members cover each other's weaknesses and exploit the current meta. There are three types of cores. Offensive Cores: Pairs or trios designed to break through opposing defenses, coordinate with super-effective coverage, and overwhelm checks. Examples include Fighting/Dark/Psychic (:pawmot: :hydreigon: :metagross-mega:) and other such fast sweeper combinations. Defensive / Balanced Cores: Groups chosen for type resistances and safe-switching capabilities, letting members absorb hits meant for each other & wearing down opponents with status, hazards, or passive damage. My favorite example is the Steel/Fairy/Dragon (:Aegislash: :Clefable: :Garchomp-Mega-Z:) core. The Water/Fire/Grass core is a more traditional example of this. Archetype or Weather Cores: Cores built around a specific field condition or mechanic, such as rain teams (e.g., Pelipper paired with Swift Swim or rain-boosted attackers) or Trick Room setups.
- :magearna-mega: -
In previous gens, Magearna had a lot it could do, kit-wise. Double Dance (Draining Kiss, Stored Power, Calm Mind, Iron Defense), Trick Room (Fleur Cannon, Volt Switch, Spikes, Trick Room), Calm Mind (Thunderbolt, Draining Kiss, Aura Sphere, Calm Mind), Shift Gear (Tera Blast, Fleur Cannon, Iron Head, Shift Gear).
Determining counters for a mon is one thing. You can pit a Dry Skin :Toxicroak: against :samurott-hisui: & have one of the best answers you could ask for. However, if a common Hisuian Samurott core consists of :Corviknight: and Tank :Garchomp:, this inadvertently makes Toxicroak one of the worst picks you can bring. Instead, you may see a rise in :Pawmot:, which resists Dark, has super-effective STAB against :samurott-hisui: and :Corviknight:, and also has a 4x-effective, Iron Fist-boosted Ice Punch for Garchomp. Such mons are called Core Breakers; a post for another time (maybe).
That being said, Magearna's worst nightmare is likely fixed on Unaware :Skeledirge:. Considering a SpDef nature & going all in on HP & SpDef, the best it can hope for is a low chance at a 3HKO, factoring in Stealth Rock & Fleur Cannon Spam (Naturally, going -2 after each use means significant offensive loss for the remaining team). In the event Stealth Rocks & at least 1 Layer of spikes are present, Skeledirge is likely a 2HKO unless Leftovers or a Sitrus Berry is equipped.
The risk of Will-O-Wisp from :Skeledirge: teams is nigh omnipresent; potential cores to consider with Magearna are:
:Primarina: + :hippowdon: + /:rillaboom:
The logic behind this cast is having a strong Special Attacker that can swap into :Skeledirge:, and a Ground and/or Grass type that can tank your electric vulnerability. Since any strong Electric attacks are likely coming from a :Pawmot:, I picked :Hippowdon:. Cases could arise where you want extra cushioning against Ground; plus, :Rotom-Wash: is another potential Electric threat, albeit an SPA one (Calm Mind Magearna), which is why :Rillaboom: was considered. Rillaboom also presumably hits Spdf Skeledirge with High Horsepower, so you never know. Pack a :Lum Berry: if you're like that.
- :Heatran-Mega: -
Heatran is hard to determine since its ability potential is up in the air. As of now, base Heatran is weak to Ground, Fighting, and Water. Consider: :Dragonite:, :Salamence:, :Rillaboom:, :Gyarados:, and in an ideal world, :zapdos:.
Theoretically, if Heatran gained Ground immunity, its main exploitables would be Water-types not weak to Power Gem + Earth Power (:primarina:, :swampert:, :tauros-paldea-aqua:, :rotom-wash:, :milotic:, :samurott-hisui:, :slowbro:, :vaporeon:, :quaquaval:, :politoed:). (Physical Attackers may risk Lava Plume burns on switch-in; troll at your discretion). Also, beware the Flying Chicken :air balloon: :blaziken:
- :Zeraora-Mega: -
Zeraora, like Magearna, had a lot it could potentially do in its kit. At Base 157 & 147 offenses, its ability is what would ultimately push it over a breakpoint. (Plasma Fists, Close Combat, Knock Off, Play Rough, Acrobatics, Blaze Kick, Agility, Bulk Up, Facade, Grass Knot, Outrage, Iron Tail, Throat Chop, Drain Punch, Volt Switch, Fake Out, Calm Mind, Endure, Endeavor, Quick Attack, Substitute, Taunt, Toxic, Thunder Wave).
In any case, your biggest chokepoints are :golisopod-mega:, :hippowdon:, :garchomp:, :rillaboom:, and burn (:Volcarona:, :Scovillain-Mega:, :Skeledirge:, :rotom-wash:/:rotom-heat:, etc.)
On paper, Zeraora seems to have it rough this patch. I'd put a Life Orb on it, pair it with :charizard-mega-y: instead, and see what carnage can unfold.
- :Darkrai-Mega: -
It may have lost the ability to sleep, but this thing is still likely going to be a coverage demon w/ Nasty Plot, so it still puts you to sleep, just more permanently than you'd remember. (Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, Sludge Bomb, Focus Blast, Psychic, Psyshock, Thunder, Shadow Ball, Sucker Punch, Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Trick) It'll mainly boil down to when you should stay small to maintain your speed lead & when you should go nuclear. Like someone else we know, it's weak to Bug, Fairy, and Fighting...Bet you can't guess who his teammates likely are:
:slowking-galar: :corviknight: :garchomp:
No more wakey.
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:Darkrai-Mega:
Typing: Mono-Dark Type
Ability: Unknown
Health Points: 70
Physical Attack: 120
Physical Defense: 130
Special Attack: 165
Special Defense: 130
Speed Tier: 85
loses :Darkrai: base form's 125 speed tier by 40 points, to invest further within it bulk which is not really workable cause only 70 base point, my prediction for it ability enhanced version of bad dreams, which deals less damage but heals user
no offense but :Zeraora: and :Zeraora-Mega: will ever run pathetic Wild Charge which only desperate electric type physical attackers run
It does have Plasma Fist as perfect electric move. I could see it as very threatening Sweeper even without the changing in ability.
No I don't, I think legendaries should almost all be banned, with rare exceptions. The likes of ting lu, Darkrai, deoxys, magearna, zamazenta, urshifu, melmetal etc etc have no place on ou imo and just makes it feel like ubers lite. Ban them all I say
Or more interesting option, Personally I would make the sub legends 600 bst, buff them and the mythicals and treat them as restricted with a limit of 1-2 per team. Yes even in singles. Then the "big" legends can be banned to ubers (alongside anything else to broken like chain pao). Heck make the pseudo legends count towards restrictions if you really want to force variety. Vgc id also make sub legends "semi restricted" with a limit of 2, only in some formats, then the current "full" restricted would either only allow on very specific formats with 1 per team or just not in competitive. Legendary Pokemon are supposed to feel LEGENDARY not he used in competitive. Would this actually be a good idea? Idk but at least it would add a little more variety while letting legendary feel special again
Like I said it's a hot take, but I'm not a fan of the sheer number of legends and legend adjacent pokemon that infest ou. If you count things like ultra beasts and paradox (which I think are internally considered legendary) then practicslly 2/3 of ou at least is legendary and that's boring to me. And again, makes the tier just feel like ubers lite and makes legendary Pokemon lose there charm
Realistically speaking obviously that won't ever happen, and maybe in reality it isn't a good idea idk but I'd like it at least as an expirament. Like how Pokemon go has its premier leagues with no legends. But for actually realistic purposes I think most sub legends and some of the mythicals are fine, but I'd really rather not let things like Darkrai and magearna in this meta. Sadly we probably will, but I seriously can't see them actually making the meta more fun or dynamic and instead just more restrictive imo. Even heatran I feel mixed on
does anyone have champions ou most recent usage stat in table form
hell no, putting restrictions on mythical is a bad idea in my opinion so no way they are only 600 BST and some older gens aren't even UU material now putting restriction on whole categoary is wrong instead just identify what works in healthy way and what works in unhealthy way and is overcentralizing and ban later of them don't generalize them look at individuals
...what? Being legendary has no reflection inherently of being good or not. There are many bad legendaries. Many good legendaries bring significant stabilization to meta games such as zamazenta, Zapdos, melmetal... And for that matter BST also does not equate to good Pokemon.
This also just makes zero sense at all. Uber tiering is defined by something being too good for OU and is a playable tier itself. OU having legends doesn't make it Uber lite because being legendary doesn't equate to being an Uber. There are lots of non legends in Ubers too. Removing these balanced mons would just fuck up those tiers their in for no good reason. There's a reason why when Zapdos came home in SV's home meta, people were super happy due to the role compression it brought and how much it helped soften the threat of threats from the previous meta.
The upcoming Reg introducing legendaries will only do good things, especially if they add the broadly splash able ones like the birds and perhaps even the dogs. Hell, I'll even boldly day the regis could be helpful for team building in some ways (hi registeel being an actually good steel when so few exist currently).
I also at start did not liked how 70% of OU tier is Pseudo Legends, Sub-Legends, Mythical, and Ultra Beast but I eventually realize many of them, but 569+ BST does not mean Uber or even OU level whole kit define what can be OU or higher or lower
Dang, knew it was a hot take but didn't expect multiple comments lol.
Saying "only" 600 bst like that's not higher than all regular pokemon besides pseudo legends, with the next highest non legend/pseudo sitting almost 50 bst lower
I understand why people disagree with the take, but I don't understand the recent mentality both in competitive/smogon, anime discussion, etc that legendary Pokemon, even sub legends, are "just regular pokemon". They just simply arent-legendary pokemon even the sub legends and mythicals ARE special. Both in lore where with a few exceptions they are rarer, stronger, more saught after and more important than regular pokemon. And yes, even in game-they are factually better than most other pokemon on average. Statistically they are better in terms of bst, movesets, and general power levels. There are except of course, and because this is gamefreak not all of them are as good as they're supposed to be because gamefreak is bad at optimization, but it's just a fact that they're supposed to be better.
Heck, the existence of things like premier league in go, the fact they launched champions with no sub legends, the multiple seasons without them in za, etc shows that even gamefreak considers them a different level of power. Again that doesn't mean showdown has to follow that but to act like they're just regular pokemon or there's no precedent for this isn't fully fair
Because they are generally statistically better that means they dominate there respective metas, often having extreme usage rates and limiting tier variety. That's not exclusive to legends and mythicals of course but is generally a lot more commonly the case. Personally If I were in charge of showdown I'd do more to encourage variety in general not just the legends, but shifting our some of the Pokemon that are spammed non stop often for multiple generations in a row (often times the legends or pseudos) is a start
I also just think most the legends are unfun. Can anyone unironically say they enjoy ting lu? Can anyone seriously say melmetal and it's 144 bp flinch happy moves is fun? I personally don't
As for the lore, that's also obviously not a reason to ban things but still, having these legends that are supposed to be rare special and extra powerful be on par or worse with regular pokemon really devalues legends imo
Again, as I said above technically yes there are bad legends but by design legendary pokemon are SUPPOSED to be better than the rest, and the majority of the time they are. Some are bad sure but most legendary pokemon are better than 90% of regular pokemon and they are designed to be superior. It's not just a title they slapped on for fun it serves a purpose
Ubers was originally the ban list essentially and grown into its own tier, but since its conception it has been 90% or more legendary Pokemon. The best of the best, which legends are supposed to be, the tier you play when you want to use the stuff that's intentionally broken. Only recent gens have other non legends regularly been a part of it (albeit still less common) because gamefreak stopped balancing for singles and because smogon has gotten a lot more lax with there bans/view ubers as more of its own tier. So yes TECHNICALLY ubers isn't just legends, but is primarily legends and that's how it will always be looked as.
Also the obvious power creep has made the current ok look like past ubers including multiple former ubers in the tier. Again not exclusively a legendary Pokemon issue but a big factor for sure
We're bordering on off topic, but yeah I'm not saying this will happen, not even saying it should necessarily, just saying what I would do personally. I'm PERSONALLY not a fan of legendary and mythicals in ou and personally think the addition of Darkrai, mag, zeraprs etc is going to make the tier less fun and wouldn't be surprised if it leads to less variety especially the megas which is the whole point of the tier. But that's just me
Saying "only" 600 bst like that's not higher than all regular pokemon besides pseudo legends, with the next highest non legend/pseudo sitting almost 50 bst lower
I understand why people disagree with the take, but I don't understand the recent mentality both in competitive/smogon, anime discussion, etc that legendary Pokemon, even sub legends, are "just regular pokemon". They just simply arent-legendary pokemon even the sub legends and mythicals ARE special. Both in lore where with a few exceptions they are rarer, stronger, more saught after and more important than regular pokemon. And yes, even in game-they are factually better than most other pokemon on average. Statistically they are better in terms of bst, movesets, and general power levels. There are except of course, and because this is gamefreak not all of them are as good as they're supposed to be because gamefreak is bad at optimization, but it's just a fact that they're supposed to be better.
Heck, the existence of things like premier league in go, the fact they launched champions with no sub legends, the multiple seasons without them in za, etc shows that even gamefreak considers them a different level of power. Again that doesn't mean showdown has to follow that but to act like they're just regular pokemon or there's no precedent for this isn't fully fair
Because they are generally statistically better that means they dominate there respective metas, often having extreme usage rates and limiting tier variety. That's not exclusive to legends and mythicals of course but is generally a lot more commonly the case. Personally If I were in charge of showdown I'd do more to encourage variety in general not just the legends, but shifting our some of the Pokemon that are spammed non stop often for multiple generations in a row (often times the legends or pseudos) is a start
I also just think most the legends are unfun. Can anyone unironically say they enjoy ting lu? Can anyone seriously say melmetal and it's 144 bp flinch happy moves is fun? I personally don't
As for the lore, that's also obviously not a reason to ban things but still, having these legends that are supposed to be rare special and extra powerful be on par or worse with regular pokemon really devalues legends imo
Again, as I said above technically yes there are bad legends but by design legendary pokemon are SUPPOSED to be better than the rest, and the majority of the time they are. Some are bad sure but most legendary pokemon are better than 90% of regular pokemon and they are designed to be superior. It's not just a title they slapped on for fun it serves a purpose
Ubers was originally the ban list essentially and grown into its own tier, but since its conception it has been 90% or more legendary Pokemon. The best of the best, which legends are supposed to be, the tier you play when you want to use the stuff that's intentionally broken. Only recent gens have other non legends regularly been a part of it (albeit still less common) because gamefreak stopped balancing for singles and because smogon has gotten a lot more lax with there bans/view ubers as more of its own tier. So yes TECHNICALLY ubers isn't just legends, but is primarily legends and that's how it will always be looked as.
Also the obvious power creep has made the current ok look like past ubers including multiple former ubers in the tier. Again not exclusively a legendary Pokemon issue but a big factor for sure
We're bordering on off topic, but yeah I'm not saying this will happen, not even saying it should necessarily, just saying what I would do personally. I'm PERSONALLY not a fan of legendary and mythicals in ou and personally think the addition of Darkrai, mag, zeraprs etc is going to make the tier less fun and wouldn't be surprised if it leads to less variety especially the megas which is the whole point of the tier. But that's just me