CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 8 (Stat spread selection)

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Deck Knight said:
Aurora Beam
Bubblebeam
Bullet Seed
Charge Beam
Dust Shoot
Energy Ball
Flamethrower
Flash Cannon
Hydro Pump
Hyper Beam
Ice Beam
Octazooka
Psybeam
Rock Blast
Signal Beam
Sludge Bomb
Solarbeam
Tri Attack
Water Gun
Zap Cannon
Hydro Pump
Solarbeam
Tri Attack
Zap Cannon
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Adding to this list:

Mud Shot
Mud Bomb
Rock Wrecker
Mirror Shot
Egg Bomb
Hydro Cannon
Pin Missle
Power Gem
Magnet Bomb
Icicle Spear (?)
Seed Bomb
Dragon Pulse (It looks like a beam)
Dark Pules (Have no real idea how this attack is launched)
Aeroblast
Shadow Ball (We have like a few ball relating attacks here so why not)
 
Fishin said:
Jury is still out on most of the movepool. We've already agreed that it's not going to be getting many other attacks beyond it's STAB moves, yes, but that's not a certain ruling against something like Brick Break, nor have we decided 100% that it's getting no stat-up moves whatsoever (though I do agree that Nasty Plot would be a bit much).
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Gee, you guys are really trying to dig into my posts today, lol. Maybe I should change it to: "any attacks that can be used extremely competitively by this Pokemon besides its ordinary STAB moves." ;[

Any sort of stat boosting (outside of small increments in Attack unless we overpower its physical attacking pool) with these kind of limits on the spreads and his great offensive STAB would probably make this Pokemon too much to handle in the OU metagame. There aren't too many Pokemon who can deter this easily outside of Togekiss (the best counter), Tentacruel (the second best, but lacks recovery), Flying/Dragons (whom might run the risk of HP: Rock or Ice), and Cresselia (neither can beat another unless Charge Beam and a lot of luck). Anything else that can deter this Pokemon, such as Tyranitar, rely on that fact that this Pokemon is hitting it with a resisted Fire Blast/Grass Knot/etc. so it can switch in without being hit for heavy damage. Most psuedo-hazers can't even switch in, let alone hurt it. With all that in mind, I think there's a good reason why stat boosts are being avoided.

@ darkjjak: Not that I want to pick on you or anything, but is there a reason you would like speed on this Pokemon?

@ latinoheat: Flare Blitz, but no Lava Plume? Flare Blitz is alright I guess, but Lava Plume finds a good home with this Pokemon, in my opinion. We'll see about Growth (actually I want to run a few calculations and make some predictions) and Morning Sun (we need to make sure we are not overpowering this Pokemon. Swords Dance is a definite "no," as this Pokemon is overbalanced as it is. You're right, however, that Will-o-Wisp seems a little odd on this Pokemon.

EDIT: Agreeing with latinoheat against Power Gem, as per the discussion we had on it in the topics.
 
Lava plume is probably too good, and this thing needs some form of recovery its a wall and its weak to stealth rock.Morning sun is not even that good, it would basically be what moonlight is to cresselia.

Power gem should be kept near exclusive for a future rock special attacker, lot of potential with that typing.

Also Moltres is probably one of the best counters this thing has got, shame about the stealth rock weakness.
 
@ Karrot

darkjjak said:
I just want a high enough speed to be able to do something should Chloryphyll not be one its abilities.
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It's probably dated thinking, but this was my train of thought when the notion that it was almost guaranteed to get Chloryphyll was going around.
 
To be honest, if we add Morning Sun, then Lava Plume should be there, too. Of course, we are trying to balance this Pokemon (a first in the CAP I think), but I think Lava Plume is reasonable.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see that part, but at least the comment stirred some discussion on that specific topic. Anyways, you're right, the idea of Chlorophyll died early on in the project. The reason a lot of these spreads restrict its speed is because the attacking combination is incredible and we don't want to break the metagame. This Pokemon has a limited amount of counters already.

Oh, and Dugtrio destroys many of this Pokemon's counters, but I've said that way too many times. :)
 
latinoheat said:
do not give it power gem, it doesn't have much special attack but rock still hits alot of its counter for SE.
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Power Gem will not be on it's movepool for the most part. Too much thing going against it at the moment. The only reason it's up there is because it's a beam attack or is done in such a way that it can be placed within a cannon and fired.
 
1. Latinoheat: 98 / 74 / 112 / 107 / 90 / 63

2. Dane: 99 / 72 / 115 / 97 / 93 / 69

3. Hit4Three: 60 / 70 / 105 / 110 / 105 / 90

4. Deck Knight: 107 / 80 / 88 / 110 / 88 / 72

latinoheat said:
please don't give it focus blast, its on every fucking pokemon.
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If you're upset that a good majority of the Pokemon have Focus Blast, you should be upset that there are a LOT of moves that a LOT of Pokemon know. If you want to change that trend, I would suggest to the CAP project leaders to make the CAP server a "modified-current-Pokemon" as well. But as far as this Pokemon is concerned, I don't see why Focus Blast shouldn't be given to it just because a lot of other Pokemon learn Focus Blast as well.
 
where is the limitied counters thing coming from.

Tentacruel
Togekiss
Moltres
Charizard lol
Heatran(No HP Ground)

salamence and dragonite are not that bad either.

Gengar, Aerodactyl and Tyranitar don't do a bad job either.

Also whats the opinion on stealth rock, this thing could make good use of it but don't we already have enough.
 
latinoheat said:
where is the limitied counters thing coming from.

Tentacruel
Togekiss
Moltres
Charizard lol
Heatran(No HP Ground)
Gengar

salamence and dragonite are not that bad either.

Aerodactyl and Tyranitar are revenge killers.
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Given your views on stealth rock it is funny you would list zard and tres as counters.The poke is special based so more than likely hp ice will be the common choice.

Your counter list should look like this

Tentacruel
Togekiss
Heatran
 
Any sort of stat boosting (outside of small increments in Attack unless we overpower its physical attacking pool) with these kind of limits on the spreads and his great offensive STAB would probably make this Pokemon too much to handle in the OU metagame. There aren't too many Pokemon who can deter this easily outside of Togekiss (the best counter), Tentacruel (the second best, but lacks recovery), Flying/Dragons (whom might run the risk of HP: Rock or Ice), and Cresselia (neither can beat another unless Charge Beam and a lot of luck). Anything else that can deter this Pokemon, such as Tyranitar, rely on that fact that this Pokemon is hitting it with a resisted Fire Blast/Grass Knot/etc. so it can switch in without being hit for heavy damage. Most psuedo-hazers can't even switch in, let alone hurt it. With all that in mind, I think there's a good reason why stat boosts are being avoided.
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Well, let's take a look at a few example sets...(assuming Growth, since that seems to be the main stat-up move that's being considered)

Growth/Fire Blast/Energy Ball/HP whatever loses solidly to Blissey (status isn't even necessary, Bliss can just wear this thing down with Ice Beam/Toss since it has no recovery and it's going to be doing lol% damage to Bliss), Cress (same reasons as Bliss), Snorlax, Togekiss, Tentacruel, and a whole bunch of other stuff depending on what Hidden Power type it's packing.

Growth/Fire Blast/Energy Ball/Rest wins against (non CM) Bliss and Cress, but still loses to Kiss, Lax, Tenta, and can't even begin to threaten Heatran. You've also got to deal with things coming in and phazing or just killing you while asleep.

Growth/Fire Blast or Energy Ball/Rest/Sleep Talk...err, ripped to shreds by Heatran and everything else the above set loses to.

I really don't see how just Growth will make this Pokemon overpowered. Physical is a bit more worrisome as far as counters go since most physical walls are weak to Fire or Grass, but Gliscor with AA (which is all the better of a choice to hit those Revenankhs and Syclants) or Stone Edge would work great, Gyara could probably do the trick, same for Salamence...it depends on exactly what we give it.
 
As long as we don't give this thing Earthquake, Tentacruel with Sludge Bomb will remain the perfect counter (even if it has HP Ground).
 
Aldaron said:
As long as we don't give this thing Earthquake, Tentacruel with Sludge Bomb will remain the perfect counter (even if it has HP Ground).
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Earthquake won't be a bad move because its attack will not be high enough plus you would have to run full physical moveset and spread to compensate which should open up other counters

I was going to say growth was ok but if it gets 101 hp probably not but we have to wait on the winning spread to know for sure.We can't properly discuss possible moveset effects with out spread and ability.You need more information before you eliminate moves.Really would you be scared of earthquake on something with 65 base attack?
 
Just saying that to be an effective counter, Tenta really does need some Special Defense investment, and that makes it very very very weak to Earthquake, even if it is unSTABed and off of only 65 Atk.
 
Tentatox taking up to 50% damage from a Neutral natured, 70 Atk, No EV'd critter hurts. Takes up to 65% damage if it had Life Orb. Personally I don't see this so bad since it can't go all mixed offense on someone.
 
Aldaron said:
Just saying that to be an effective counter, Tenta really does need some Special Defense investment, and that makes it very very very weak to Earthquake, even if it is unSTABed and off of only 65 Atk.
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I see your point but this how i see it

Pure special-Tenta is a counter
Pure Physical-Tenta is not a counter
Split attacker-It puts a little dent in tenta but makes an overall worse poke because it is stats are not good enough not to specialize in one area.
 
Just posting to say that Latinoheat has the worst logic ever to not give our Pokemon Focus Blast... so what if a lot of pokemon learn it?

Last time I checked every pokemon can learn Sub, and Protect... so should we not give our pokemon those moves just for the sake of originality?
 
Fishin said:
Well, let's take a look at a few example sets...(assuming Growth, since that seems to be the main stat-up move that's being considered)

Growth/Fire Blast/Energy Ball/HP whatever loses solidly to Blissey (status isn't even necessary, Bliss can just wear this thing down with Ice Beam/Toss since it has no recovery and it's going to be doing lol% damage to Bliss), Cress (same reasons as Bliss), Snorlax, Togekiss, Tentacruel, and a whole bunch of other stuff depending on what Hidden Power type it's packing.

Growth/Fire Blast/Energy Ball/Rest wins against (non CM) Bliss and Cress, but still loses to Kiss, Lax, Tenta, and can't even begin to threaten Heatran. You've also got to deal with things coming in and phazing or just killing you while asleep.

Growth/Fire Blast or Energy Ball/Rest/Sleep Talk...err, ripped to shreds by Heatran and everything else the above set loses to.

I really don't see how just Growth will make this Pokemon overpowered. Physical is a bit more worrisome as far as counters go since most physical walls are weak to Fire or Grass, but Gliscor with AA (which is all the better of a choice to hit those Revenankhs and Syclants) or Stone Edge would work great, Gyara could probably do the trick, same for Salamence...it depends on exactly what we give it.
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So we're only going to make a competitive Fire/Grass pokemon as long as that pokemon cannot do even one thing a random Grass type ordinarily can, such as Powders, Leech Seed or Synthesis/Moonlight.

In other words we're trying to make a competitive Fire/Grass that gets walled by every single wall in OU. How pleasant. Look, I know Syclant had lol diversity, but why the hell did we choose a Grass type if we aren't going to give it ANY grass traits. At ALL.

If you wanted a Fire pokemon that doesn't get Leech Seed, Synthesis, or Powders... You already have plenty of options. Why we incessently feel the need to take away everything Grass about this except for STAB options is rather sickening.
 
Haha, there will absolutely be Grass options on this thing. Whoever is saying otherwise is seriously mistaken. Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Synthesis will absolutely be on it, regardless of spread.

And there will be Lava Plume and Will-o-wisp as well ;)

EDIT: I could compromise with no Sleep Powder and Growth however, that doesn't bother me. Of course, we could simply just put both on, and if in testing it is deemed too powerful, we could remove it.
 
1. Hit4Three: 60 / 70 / 105 / 110 / 105 / 90

2. Fishin: 85 / 82 / 81 / 116 / 97 / 79

3. Futuresuperstar: 115 / 80 / 95 / 110 / 70 / 75

4. Time Mage: 45 / 55 / 115 / 105 / 115 / 105

Oh hey guys I'm back ^____^
 
Deck Knight said:
So we're only going to make a competitive Fire/Grass pokemon as long as that pokemon cannot do even one thing a random Grass type ordinarily can, such as Powders, Leech Seed or Synthesis/Moonlight.

In other words we're trying to make a competitive Fire/Grass that gets walled by every single wall in OU. How pleasant. Look, I know Syclant had lol diversity, but why the hell did we choose a Grass type if we aren't going to give it ANY grass traits. At ALL.

If you wanted a Fire pokemon that doesn't get Leech Seed, Synthesis, or Powders... You already have plenty of options. Why we incessently feel the need to take away everything Grass about this except for STAB options is rather sickening.
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Because the art doesn't really show anything Powder inducing. I do see how the lower forms can learn Leech Seed though. I guess you can say cannons spray powders though. Can anyone think of specific Grass moves outside of Powders and Leech Seed? All I got is Aromatheropy, which we should be discussing, by the way.
 
Hyra said:
Can anyone think of specific Grass moves outside of Powders and Leech Seed? All I got is Aromatheropy, which we should be discussing, by the way.
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In terms of support moves?
There entire list is:
Aromatheropy
Cotton Spore (lolz)
Grasswhistle (whistles with his tail!)
Ingrain
Leech Seed
Sleep Powder
Spore (...yeah right)
Stun Spore
Synthesis
Worry Seed
 
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