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Gastrodon > Swampert?
- Thread starter KapKap
- Start date
I think gastrodon is very viable in OU. It can be an awesome mixed wall and toxic-staller. I use a slightly more defensive version of the stockpile set. It can easily set up on: Starmie without grass knot, cressilia, anything with T-bolt and HP ice, ect ect ect. I have some shoddy logs of sweeping entire teams. However, they are extremely long.
Stockpiling is something swampert cannot do. The only bad thing about stockpile up sets, is that there is always one thing that will wall you... The best thing to do is have surf and earthquake, and toxic spikes on the team.
I use sassy nature, 20 HP//174 DEF//64 SATK//252 SP DEF/
It hits 368 HP for a leftovers number. It hits enough special attack to do 41.62% - 49.10% to skarmory (wow... thats one strong surf) which 2HKOS IT AFTER STEALTH ROCK when it tries to use roar. With toxic spikes up, blissey is helpless.
Basically, it toxic stalls. On any turn it has nothing to do (say blissey is poisoned already) you can stockpile to waste a turn. Set up fodder it aint, it can stall out garchomp on occasion.
But, I wouldn't say it is a counter to garchomp by any stretch of the imagination.
Stockpiling is something swampert cannot do. The only bad thing about stockpile up sets, is that there is always one thing that will wall you... The best thing to do is have surf and earthquake, and toxic spikes on the team.
I use sassy nature, 20 HP//174 DEF//64 SATK//252 SP DEF/
It hits 368 HP for a leftovers number. It hits enough special attack to do 41.62% - 49.10% to skarmory (wow... thats one strong surf) which 2HKOS IT AFTER STEALTH ROCK when it tries to use roar. With toxic spikes up, blissey is helpless.
Basically, it toxic stalls. On any turn it has nothing to do (say blissey is poisoned already) you can stockpile to waste a turn. Set up fodder it aint, it can stall out garchomp on occasion.
But, I wouldn't say it is a counter to garchomp by any stretch of the imagination.
Yeah, I'm not saying Swampert is outclassed by Gastrodon by any stretch of the imagination, but on teams without a Wish Passer, I think Gastrodon would be much better than Swampert, because of Recover. People underestimate how this enhances his survivability. While Swampert can take maybe 3-4 hits for you all game long, Gastrodon can get in on those stupid Electric types with HP Ice, and recover back his health.
Standard Jolteon's HP Ice vs 252/0 Gastrodon: 19.01% - 22.54%
Standard Bulky Zapdos' HP Ice vs Gastrodon: 17.14% - 20.19%
Standard "trapper" Magnezone's HP Ice vs Gastrodon: 23.47% - 27.70%
Standard Jolteon's HP Ice vs 252/0 Gastrodon: 19.01% - 22.54%
Standard Bulky Zapdos' HP Ice vs Gastrodon: 17.14% - 20.19%
Standard "trapper" Magnezone's HP Ice vs Gastrodon: 23.47% - 27.70%
I'd agree... if it weren't for the fact that Hippodown's only ability is Sand Stream. Not every team wants to play in the sand.
If Hippodown had a different ability, I know I'd use him as my wall.
On topic: Swampert barely functions as a wall (I should know, MixPert has been my Physical Wall on WiFi for a while now). Saying Gastrodon is as good as Swampert isn't going to help you here. I'm sympathetic to your cause as I really like Gastrodon, but I don't think he's there.
One thing the TC is forgetting is that Swampert isn't always so defensive. CB Swampert is a VERY viable pokemon to use in OU, with base 110 Attack and great HP. I believe my moveset was Waterfall / Earthquake / Ice Punch / Stone Edge. Avalanche doesn't hit hard on switches, which is why I used Ice Punch. Anyways, Gastrodon is cool, but only shares one of the slots Swampert can hold in OU, and it completely outclassed if it trys to do anything else. This is the case with many UU pokemon.
Gastrodon does not learn Roar or Stealth Rock.
And it's never going to hit from both sides of the spectrum, either. Earthquake off of I think 202 Attack? Lol.
I prefer using Swampert in an offensive role, anyways. Walls without recovery = no.
Hippowdon needed Thick Fat :(
And it's never going to hit from both sides of the spectrum, either. Earthquake off of I think 202 Attack? Lol.
I prefer using Swampert in an offensive role, anyways. Walls without recovery = no.
Hippowdon needed Thick Fat :(
Gastrodon has its yawn to act the same as swamperts roar "almost". The issue at hand is that Gastrodon is not better than Swampert. Swampert has better support moves, and more attack, that 7 base spatk is not noticable because Ice Beam's useage is used around x2 / x4 weaknesses.
I'd probably only use Swampert because Gastrodon just doesn't give me that fearing factor like "shit I have to get rid of this or I can't sweep." Granted, Gastro might stay around longer, but in the psychological part of battling, it doesn't really have anything going for it. Most of the time I view it as a easy set up.
Gastrodon!!!!!!!!
Anyway, Gastrodon is probably the most underrated wall in the game. Recover puts above Swampert in the walling department, as it can switch in multiple times to threats like Ttar/Zapdos and just recover off the damage. Swmapert can maybe take 3-4 hits and then it dies. Recover also makes Gastrodon the superior Curser.
Swampert's physical attacking stat is better, but Gastrodon's Earthquakes hit just fine on TTar, Metagross,Weavile etc. It usually will 2HKO and any damage taken can be Recovered off anyway.
I would use Swampert if I wanted to run a Boah set or CB, but for pure walling and countering Gastrodon's the better choice. Walls in D/P really need some sort of recovery, with residual damage and the increased power of sweepers.
My personal favortie Gastrodon set is the first one from the analysis (Toxic and Surf are both useful in the last slot) the Curser can work well late game, though things like Celebi really ruin the fun of a slug sweep. On a side note, Sticky Hold is fairly useful as Gastrodon counters most common Knock Offers. Donphan, Gliscor, Drapion, and Muk all fall to Gastrodon, not to mention that Torrent will rarely activate for Swampert who often doesn't carry water STAB anyway.
Anyway, Gastrodon is probably the most underrated wall in the game. Recover puts above Swampert in the walling department, as it can switch in multiple times to threats like Ttar/Zapdos and just recover off the damage. Swmapert can maybe take 3-4 hits and then it dies. Recover also makes Gastrodon the superior Curser.
Swampert's physical attacking stat is better, but Gastrodon's Earthquakes hit just fine on TTar, Metagross,Weavile etc. It usually will 2HKO and any damage taken can be Recovered off anyway.
I would use Swampert if I wanted to run a Boah set or CB, but for pure walling and countering Gastrodon's the better choice. Walls in D/P really need some sort of recovery, with residual damage and the increased power of sweepers.
My personal favortie Gastrodon set is the first one from the analysis (Toxic and Surf are both useful in the last slot) the Curser can work well late game, though things like Celebi really ruin the fun of a slug sweep. On a side note, Sticky Hold is fairly useful as Gastrodon counters most common Knock Offers. Donphan, Gliscor, Drapion, and Muk all fall to Gastrodon, not to mention that Torrent will rarely activate for Swampert who often doesn't carry water STAB anyway.
Just quoting this to show you all again how easy it is to get Gastrodon's HP back. Being 5% frailer than Swampert doesn't matter, because Gastrodon has Recover.
On on offensive team, Swampert is a good choice as a defensive tank. However, if you need a bulky water/ground for a stall team, Gastrodon is nigh unkillable. Without a Choice Specs/Band, you can't 2HKO it, throw Stockpile/Curse/Amnesia on it, and only Roar or Toxic is gonna kill you. Normal Poison and Burn don't do enough to deter it, it's basically a negative leftovers recovery on Gassy... and he can easily recover it off. Gastrodon deserves more credit.
Lol, Does that contribute at all to the thread?
Anyway, I'm considering making a team centered around Rain Dance.
I'll definitely include Gastrodon, because it's surf move will double in power, along with it's great walling abilities.
Sticky hold also prevents a phazer from roaring/whirlwinding you out after you curse/stockpile up.
Gah, so many possibilities!
err no it's *1.5
it'll make opposing surfs hit harder and opposing fire attacks hit less hard so no
er no it stops your item from being knocked off e_E;
Bleh I totally misunderstood sticky hold :/
I read it too fast and saw "this pokemon can not be removed"
Sorry everyone, lol
It could potentially be a good switch-in for opposing Gliscors when you predict a Knock off.. And I guess it can pose an immediate threat to him.
Anyway, if you fear a surf, switch into Kingdra or ludicolo (rain dance, obviously) and then take advantage of the speed boost and sweep. If you need to wall, switch out Gastrodon and do what you gotta do.
Obviously.
:p
I read it too fast and saw "this pokemon can not be removed"
Sorry everyone, lol
It could potentially be a good switch-in for opposing Gliscors when you predict a Knock off.. And I guess it can pose an immediate threat to him.
Anyway, if you fear a surf, switch into Kingdra or ludicolo (rain dance, obviously) and then take advantage of the speed boost and sweep. If you need to wall, switch out Gastrodon and do what you gotta do.
Obviously.
:p
In retrospect, perhaps the reason why you don't see people using Gastrodon, is cause of it's goal and purpose.
It's goal is to wall, or rather, since it has Recover to survive 'that' long, stall. But on a stall team, would you use Gastrodon? Or other ground types such as Hippowdon and Gliscor, or other Water types such as Milotic and Tentacruel? Surely any team that's made for the long run wouldn't want to run Swampert, as Swampert is better as a fill in the blank kind of Poke, that does it's walling, but the team is normally done in its goal.
So with that said, in the short run, Swampert is better, which pretty much everyone has agreed, but in the long run, Gastrodon is better, however, there are others better than Gastrodon for the long run.
It's goal is to wall, or rather, since it has Recover to survive 'that' long, stall. But on a stall team, would you use Gastrodon? Or other ground types such as Hippowdon and Gliscor, or other Water types such as Milotic and Tentacruel? Surely any team that's made for the long run wouldn't want to run Swampert, as Swampert is better as a fill in the blank kind of Poke, that does it's walling, but the team is normally done in its goal.
So with that said, in the short run, Swampert is better, which pretty much everyone has agreed, but in the long run, Gastrodon is better, however, there are others better than Gastrodon for the long run.
totally agree here. the only thing that gasrodon is superior to swampy is recover + Curse or recover + stockpile + toxic. other than that, i honestly couldn't compare using Gastro over swamp (though, I think Gastro looks more badass...)
Sleep Clause makes the phazing effects of Yawn moot. I'd let something useless get put to sleep then set up all over the thing.
Tried doing this with Hippowdon at one point, and that was exactly what kept happening.
Gastrodon may be able to take hits slightly better than Swampert with Recover, but its offensive stats don't scare anything.
Why do you have useless stuff on your team?
And the point of yawn is using it to make the set-upper switch out, a smart player wouldn't bother yawning anything not worth the phase.
And the point of yawn is using it to make the set-upper switch out, a smart player wouldn't bother yawning anything not worth the phase.
that's completely untrue. try running calcs on the things you'd be hitting in OU - mostly T-Tar and Metagross. Both are at worst 3HKO'd with 0 Attack Gastrodon EQ. 4 HP T-Tar takes min 50% from it. Metagross is hit harder by Mud Bomb, but it won't do as much to T-Tar.
Special wise, Gastrodon without EVs has more Sp. Attack than standard MixPert, and with just 60 Sp. Attack EVs (already have 44 spare with standard spread) it hits the min to take out a 4 HP Salamence with one Ice Beam. I wouldn't call that not doing anything.
Now compare that to the 252-atk Adamant Swampert I typically use :P
I'm not saying Gastrodon is a bad wall. That would be stupid. In fact, I'd like to see him be up for BL consideration. But "better than Swampert?" That's a little much, especially when the latter has other uses.
I'm not saying Gastrodon is a bad wall. That would be stupid. In fact, I'd like to see him be up for BL consideration. But "better than Swampert?" That's a little much, especially when the latter has other uses.
hmm... this is a very interesting thread. it's weaker than swampert in terms of attack stats but that's nothing if you're toxic stalling. put on a mega defensive set OF EV's and use
recover
toxic
stockpile
ice beam
and you got yourselves a winner. ice beam because you don't want subchomp to set up on you.
recover
toxic
stockpile
ice beam
and you got yourselves a winner. ice beam because you don't want subchomp to set up on you.
Well what this thread has really concluded is: define better