CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9.5 (Main/Secondary Ability Poll)

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Dane, I think you are so wrong it isn't even funny. But let's ignore its brokenness from a team point...let's just look at this individually.

By giving it Greenhouse...we've removed nearly every freaking check I instituted on my base stat spread. Now Flare Blitz / Fire Blast WILL OHKO all those checks that had a chance of coming in, not being OHKOd and OHKOing back (SpecsGengar and BandRaptor).

This would be a travesty just on the individual perspective if we gave this Greenhouse.

And that's ignoring the team benefits...

But Doug does bring up a validated point on the lacking potential of theorymon...

All I can say is that I seriously think auto-Sun removes a lot of the checks I had in place for this. A LOT of them.
 
Are you guys kidding me? Not only does it get a fire move boost x 1.5 but an automatic STABBED solarbeam. Not only will heatran be used with this thing constantly, but be the ONLY counter, and since this thing is mixed, it will most likely get earthquake. Even then, Tran cant do shit to this, its just a stand off.

I think it will be completely broken and sunny day needs to be a moveslot on it, a given almost.

Rock head allows for non recoil wood hammer and flare blitz for a physical set

Chlorophyl while also potentially broken isnt as cheap as greenhouse

Im really hating how the counter list of everything made here seems to be realy skimpy, I think it came to the conclusion blissey cant always stop tail glow syclant and the counter to Rvenank is "Subseeding"

We dont need to make unstoppable pokes, thats no fun.
 
Main: Greenhouse
Secondary: Battle Armor

Sorry Aldaron, I know the risk, but it sounds too fun. If it's too bad I guess we'll have to justt send it off to ubers.

Or make a 5 tuern drizzle to even it out next time =]
 
latinoheat said:
unless you carry one of maybe 3 pokemon or multiple protect users heatran will take out 2-3 of your pokemon how is that not overcentralising. Also anyone with any sense could have seen shed+rest was just as good if not better.
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Oh no, you have to make changes to your team!? Heavens no!

Seriously, it's not like it would be hard to have a Fire absorber (there are quite a few), a grass resister, or a scarfed sleeper/paralyzer. And it's not like 90% of Pokemon don't get Protect.

Aldaron said:
Dane, I think you are so wrong it isn't even funny. But let's ignore its brokenness from a team point...let's just look at this individually.

By giving it Greenhouse...we've removed nearly every freaking check I instituted on my base stat spread. Now Flare Blitz / Fire Blast WILL OHKO all those checks that had a chance of coming in, not being OHKOd and OHKOing back (SpecsGengar and BandRaptor).

This would be a travesty just on the individual perspective if we gave this Greenhouse.

And that's ignoring the team benefits...

But Doug does bring up a validated point on the lacking potential of theorymon...

All I can say is that I seriously think auto-Sun removes a lot of the checks I had in place for this. A LOT of them.
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If it's that overly powerful, then how is it any different than Heat Rocking a Bronzong? You'd get 6 turns out of that on this guy, with another ability, and can explode Bronzong for another likely KO.
 
Eh, not too mention that auto Sun removes both Crobat and Aerodactyl from the potential counters lists (actually even removes them from the check list) and a STAB auto Solarbeam seriously puts a hurting on Tentacruel, making it a check at best.

The four Pokemon who were solid counters, Togekiss, Crobat, Aerodactyl and Tentacruel are all reduced to either not even checks, or hazy checks at best.

I agree with Doug that theorymon really doesn't hold to solidly...but still. I instituted specific checks to ensure it wasn't broken, and now those checks are destroyed...
 
speedwobbles225 said:
Are you guys kidding me? Not only does it get a fire move boost x 1.5 but an automatic STABBED solarbeam. Not only will heatran be used with this thing constantly, but be the ONLY counter, and since this thing is mixed, it will most likely get earthquake. Even then, Tran cant do shit to this, its just a stand off.

I think it will be completely broken and sunny day needs to be a moveslot on it, a given almost.

Rock head allows for non recoil wood hammer and flare blitz for a physical set

Chlorophyl while also potentially broken isnt as cheap as greenhouse

Im really hating how the counter list of everything made here seems to be realy skimpy, I think it came to the conclusion blissey cant always stop tail glow syclant and the counter to Rvenank is "Subseeding"

We dont need to make unstoppable pokes, thats no fun.
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'Cept none is unstoppable. Syclant is beat by fire, and rock. While he's setting up those Tail Glows. Rev-whatever is pretty much beat by other ghost or hell even my Linoone with Shadow Claw OHKO 'em. (Granted it was belly drumed)

My point is, everything has a weakness. And worse case senerio, it gets banned to uber.
 
Dane, since you seem to be taking the team perspective and claiming 3 viable turns of Sun isn't broken, what do you think about this from the individual Pokemon's perspective?

Now Gengar and Staraptor can both not switch in without being OHKOed, Togekiss, Aerodactyl and Crobat cannot even be checks (Togekiss can be one I guess with "luck"), and have the BLs that might have been checks (Ludicolo, Seviper, Hitmontop etc.) now cannot even be checks.
 
If sunshine makes all these pokemon into unstoppable beasts -- WHY DOESN'T ANYONE EVER RUN SUNNY DAY!

Hell, people run Trick Room more than Sunny Day. I don't honestly think I've ever seen Sunny Day used in a battle. Ever. Why is that? According to you guys, one Sunny Day means Heatran and the most-astounding-pokemon-in-existence, Jumpluff, gets a free sweep on the all the crappy pokes like Garchomp and Blissey. They get blown away by the awesome sun-powered juggernauts that emerge when the sun shines.

For goodness sakes, please spare me all the hype. If sun was that damn powerful, someone would be using it right now. At least a little.
 
name a grass resister outside of heatran who doesn't get raped by fire, and having to put protect on half my fucking team is overcentralising.

Doug nobody really uses or atleast abuses rain dance in OU outside of Kingdra who is literally in the bottom ranges of OU, or are you saying auto rain wouldn't be broken either.
 
Doug, Dane, alright, I'll "spare you all the hype." But only in regards to Sun as a broken environment from the team perspective.

Please, all I'm asking is how we will compensate for all the potential checks this Pokemon had being completely removed due to its auto Sun?

If this was something like, "Upon switching out, it leaves Sun for 3 or 4 or 5 turns (whatever)," I could shut up with my theorymon and say, "hey, cool, let's try this out."

The thing is, the direct Sun helps this guy out too much...
 
DougJustDoug said:
If sunshine makes all these pokemon into unstoppable beasts -- WHY DOESN'T ANYONE EVER RUN SUNNY DAY!

Hell, people run Trick Room more than Sunny Day. I don't honestly think I've ever seen Sunny Day used in a battle. Ever. Why is that? According to you guys, one Sunny Day means Heatran and the most-astounding-pokemon-in-existence, Jumpluff, gets a free sweep on the all the crappy pokes like Garchomp and Blissey. They get blown away by the awesome sun-powered juggernauts that emerge when the sun shines.

For goodness sakes, please spare me all the hype. If sun was that damn powerful, someone would be using it right now. At least a little.
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Nobody used sandstorm before Tyranitar or Hippodon, this will have the same effect.

or we can spend the next CAP making a counter to this one if you like.
 
latinoheat said:
name a grass resister outside of heatran who doesn't get raped by fire, and having to put protect on half my fucking team is overcentralising.
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Every fire Pokemon who doesn't have ground or rock as a secondary type. Every dragon outside of Kingdra and Garchomp. Thick Fat/Heatproof Pokemon.

You know, basically his normal counter list that I've posted about 15 times now?

Aldaron said:
Dane, since you seem to be taking the team perspective and claiming 3 viable turns of Sun isn't broken, what do you think about this from the individual Pokemon's perspective?
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I admit it's a little stronger as a solo ability when compared to a team ability, but if it's so strong why isn't anyone using Sunny Day already? Apparently works with Kingdra, so why not Sunny Day?
 
latinoheat said:
name a grass resister outside of heatran who doesn't get raped by fire, and having to put protect on half my fucking team is overcentralising.

Doug nobody really uses or atleast abuses rain dance in OU outside of Kingdra who is literally in the bottom ranges of OU, or are you saying auto rain wouldn't be broken either.
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Are you kidding me? People abuse Bronzongs Raindance with Kingdra ALL OF THE TIME! You rarely ever see a Sunny Day team. Why? Because theres nothing that can really set it up.
 
No, I mean for this individual Pokemon. Auto Sun removes Togekiss, Aerodactyl and Crobat from the counter list, and removes so many Pokemon from the check list.

Auto-Sun doesn't allow either Gengar or Staraptor to switch into the minimum SpA version...both of which had the ability to switch in and OHKO with their respective Specs / Band SE STAB moves....
 
I will agree to at least test auto-sun in OU just for the sake of curiosity... I have always wondered what it would be like...

Also someone mentioned if it is too powerful we could ship it off to ubers...
In response to that person: Why dont we keep it in OU and just change the fucking ability?


Also Dane: You mentioned scarfers as a counter. Name 1 choice scarf user besides Heatran that can switch into this pokemons FB and survive.
 
and not one of them without flash fire could take a boosted heatran hit, if the only things worth using in the metagame are flash fire pokemon then its not been opened up its just been changed to a different centralising force.

Seriously an auto sunnyday pokemon with fire/grass stab is fanboyish, its got to the point where i am expecting either the steel/dragon with levitate or the ultra fast/special based bolt beamer next.
 
latinoheat said:
and not one of them without flash fire could take a boosted heatran hit, if the only things worth using in the metagame are fire pokemon then its not been opened up its just been chance to a different centralising force.
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If you're so afraid of Heatran getting off a boosted Fire Blast or whatever, switch in another weather changer?
 
DougJustDoug said:
If sunshine makes all these pokemon into unstoppable beasts -- WHY DOESN'T ANYONE EVER RUN SUNNY DAY!

Hell, people run Trick Room more than Sunny Day. I don't honestly think I've ever seen Sunny Day used in a battle. Ever. Why is that? According to you guys, one Sunny Day means Heatran and the most-astounding-pokemon-in-existence, Jumpluff, gets a free sweep on the all the crappy pokes like Garchomp and Blissey. They get blown away by the awesome sun-powered juggernauts that emerge when the sun shines.

For goodness sakes, please spare me all the hype. If sun was that damn powerful, someone would be using it right now. At least a little.
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This pokemon is a one-man sunny team. Three turns isn't a lot of time, but why would you switch him out anyway? I also don't see jumpluff sweeping either garchomp or blissey (heatran is a beast though).
 
Listen, while I actually think Auto Sun is broken in OU, I am 100% willing to test it out...so long as somehow this specific Pokemon does not get it for itself when it switches in.

If Greenhouse was something like "upon switching out, 4 turns of Sunlight are produced" or something to that effect, I'd be 100% willing to try it out. The problem is, auto Sun for this removes so many direct counter and check strategies. Auto Sun even causes Zapdos, arguably the best indirect counter, to think twice about switching in.
 
Dane: Not all of us want to run Ttar, Abama, Hippo on our teams...

If you need a weather changer just to counter this one pokemon and the changes he brings wouldn't you say that is a little.... over centralizing?

Basically most of the counters originally mentioned are obsolete as they are no longer true counters. A counter must be able to switch in which most of our counters are now unable to do.



Aldaron: I have also stated numerous times in the "What ability/move do you want X pokemon to have thread" that any auto-weather inducer, no matter how bad their base stats would be too broken for OU. You can track down my old posts (assuming they were not deleted) of me pretty much jumping at anyones throat that mentioned an auto-rain pokemon.

So I agree with you completely about auto sun/rain being broken in OU, though I just want to test it out.
 
DougJustDoug said:
If sunshine makes all these pokemon into unstoppable beasts -- WHY DOESN'T ANYONE EVER RUN SUNNY DAY!

Hell, people run Trick Room more than Sunny Day. I don't honestly think I've ever seen Sunny Day used in a battle. Ever. Why is that? According to you guys, one Sunny Day means Heatran and the most-astounding-pokemon-in-existence, Jumpluff, gets a free sweep on the all the crappy pokes like Garchomp and Blissey. They get blown away by the awesome sun-powered juggernauts that emerge when the sun shines.

For goodness sakes, please spare me all the hype. If sun was that damn powerful, someone would be using it right now. At least a little.
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Great point
Primary ability: Greenhouse
Secondary ability: Rock head
 
I wouldn't mind the 5 turns after it switches out at all tbh.
Worth discussion.
I'd like a drizzle effect like this next time, too. On something bulky enough to counter this.
 
Kira said:
Dane: Not all of us want to run Ttar, Abama, Hippo on our teams...
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That's fine, neither do I. It just means you gotta run one of the other things able to take the hits (which I listed before), or be willing to hope you don't run into this. It's no real different than not having a DDGyarados counter.

If you need a weather changer just to counter this one pokemon and the changes he brings wouldn't you say that is a little.... over centralizing?
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That's just one of many counters. There are quite a few things that can take it on.

Basically most of the counters originally mentioned are obsolete as they are no longer true counters. A counter must be able to switch in which most of our counters are now unable to do.
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There are still quite a few counters. Again, if this situation is so dangerous, why hasn't it been abused before like Kingdra's Rain Dance?

So I agree with you completely about auto sun/rain being broken in OU, though I just want to test it out.
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Exactly, it's not like it's unchangable.

Karrot said:
Although it has nothing to do with DP: ADV - Level 1 Groudon/Kyogre. I played with a Drizzle team in OU for a while with my Level 1 Kyogre. Even there, in a metagame much less offensive than that of DP, the Rain Dance and Sunny Day teams of the time were incredibly powerful.
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Perma weather is a little different than 3-4 usable turns.
 
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