CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9.5 (Main/Secondary Ability Poll)

[Kira]

I just don't get why Woodman would be "Broken" if he had Green House as Ability, he would still be counter'd easily by a Tyranitar and it would nulify his Sunny day too with Sand Stream.

And Doug removing Fire Blast or Flamethrower from this pokemon is just too much not just every single fire pokemon gets it but even most of the other pokemon too.

Also deos Synthesis heal more in Sunny Day?

You listed one pokemon.... so if only one pokemon counters it then that is a huge problem as not everyone wants to play in sand all the damn time.

Oh and lets not forget that TTAR can only take 3 grass knots/sbeams so it can only switch in three times... that is not really a good counter.

Now EVERY SINGLE COUNTER we listed before is no longer a safe counter when the sun is out... thus making this thing UNCOUNTERABLE.

At least read the fucking arguments, because if you did you would understand why it is broken.

 

[Notty]

Fire Pokemon in general have been listed as excellent counters to him that only get *better* in the sun.

That said, I'd prefer to not make a mini-Drought when we have a perfectly acceptable actual Drought available for another time.

Primary: Battle Armor
Secondary: Rock Head

 

[Kira]

Fire Pokemon in general have been listed as excellent counters to him that only get *better* in the sun.

That said, I'd prefer to not make a mini-Drought when we have a perfectly acceptable actual Drought available for another time.

Primary: Battle Armor
Secondary: Rock Head

List one pokemon besides Heatran that can take this thing on?

Aldaron even said numerous times FIRE POKEMON DO NOT COUNTER THIS GUY.

The sun multiplies the power of fire, meaning that FIRE attacks will do NORMAL damage to FIRE pokemon.... so it's no longer "not very effective" This means FIRE types no longer have a safe switch in to FIRE attacks....

Plus our guy has HP Rock to deal with those Fire types.

We already mentioned that basically only Fire/Flying types and Heatran counter him... with HP Rock only Heatran counters him.

 

[Dane]

List one pokemon besides Heatran that can take this thing on?

Arcanine, Flareon, Houndoom, Ninetales, Rapidash. Oh wait, you only wanted one, not five.

Aldaron even said numerous times FIRE POKEMON DO NOT COUNTER THIS GUY.

The sun multiplies the power of fire, meaning that FIRE attacks will do NORMAL damage to FIRE pokemon.... so it's no longer "not very effective"

Funny, Flash Fire makes it do no damage, and actually strengthens them to fire back with a Sun Boosted, Flash Fire enhanced, base line neutral STAB attack.

Plus our guy has HP Rock to deal with those Fire types.

And 60 speed.

We already mentioned that basically only Fo\ire/Flying types and Heatran counter him... with HP Rock only Heatran counters him.

Umm, no? Fire/Flying would be the only subset of flying if it got Earth Power or Earthquake or something, but it obviously won't.

 

[Notty]

I was just going to quote Deck Knight's post in response to Alda's "Fire's don't counter Woodman", but Dane summed it up rather nicely.

And again, I still think that it's a moot point, because we should save perma-sun/perma-rain for another time, when we have a Pokemon more balanced around it, as opposed to a last minute addition.

 

[Kira]

Fine Dane...

Though you have to admit that those Flash Fire pokemon are hardly ever used in OU.

 

[DougJustDoug]

List one pokemon besides Heatran that can take this thing on?

Aldaron even said numerous times FIRE POKEMON DO NOT COUNTER THIS GUY.

The sun multiplies the power of fire, meaning that FIRE attacks will do NORMAL damage to FIRE pokemon.... so it's no longer "not very effective" This means FIRE types no longer have a safe switch in to FIRE attacks....

Plus our guy has HP Rock to deal with those Fire types.

We already mentioned that basically only Fire/Flying types and Heatran counter him... with HP Rock only Heatran counters him.

How do you know what this thing can hurt? If it's best special Fire move is Ember, then every pokemon in existence will laugh at this thing in the sun.

I really don't know where you people are getting this stuff. This pokeman has absolutely NO moves in its movepool, yet you've already determined it has no counters.

Once again, this is theorymon and speculation-mon of galactic proportions.

 

[sbc]

I just don't get why Woodman would be "Broken" if he had Green House as Ability, he would still be counter'd easily by a Tyranitar and it would nulify his Sunny day too with Sand Stream.

And Doug removing Fire Blast or Flamethrower from this pokemon is just too much not just every single fire pokemon gets it but even most of the other pokemon too.

Also deos Synthesis heal more in Sunny Day?

I think Tyranitar takes around 40% or something from a grass knot without spdef evs. And will be the first one to slap choice specs on it if it gets greenhouse and then we are probably talking about a OHKO.

Yes, synthesis does heal more in sun.

Personally I think that now is too late to introduce an auto-sun pokemon. If one was to be introduced, this should have been one of the first stages of discussion so we can avoid making the pokemon too broken.

As it now happens, the new pokemon has extremely good defences, only 3 weaknesses rock (most rock/ground types using this will be decimated by grass moves), flying (i.e. togekiss, skarmory, moltres? which bar moltres will take massive damage from 2.25 boosted fire attacks) and poison (Weezing, Gengar sludge bomb) which is incredibly rare to see. Not to mention the fact that grass/fire stab is only resisted outright by Dragons and Fire types.

I do not think that the pokemon that we have developed is suitable for an auto-sun trait, we would need to make this pokemon akin to Abomansnow and even then the aforemention Aboma's hail doesn't boost its STAB move.

 

[Dane]

Fine Dane...

Though you have to admit that those Flash Fire pokemon are hardly ever used in OU.

You mean the meta would have to shift? Is that really a bad thing? Last I checked, that's kind of the point of CaP, remove stagnation. If only we could do something about that blasted Gengar.

 

[Aldaron]

No, Fire Pokemon do NOT counter this guy, they merely check him. You guys are spreading false information :/

Hidden Power Rock (what many agreed to be the standard on this guy) 2HKOs the majority of the Fires...how bloody balls is that a counter? Not to mention that Stealth Rock is almost assuredly going to come hand in hand with this "Stall-type" Pokemon, so you have to try and make sure that your Fires don't take 75% total from two Hidden Power Rocks, not 100% total.

You're assuming that Woodman Fire Blasts on the switch and activates Flash Fire...

317 SpA Woodman's HP Rock is a 2HKO with Leftovers (probably not on Arcanine anyway) 87% of the time assuming 4 HP / 0 SpD.

Also, don't say that Fires are going to be running HP and SpD, lol. That's just as silly as saying Heracross is running HP Ice so Gliscor isn't a counter. Fires aren't going to completely debilitate themselves JUST to counter this thing.

As for Doug's suggestion that this isn't getting Fire Blast and we should cater the moves to the ability...I think that is preposterous. We are human beings not machines...we can think ahead a little bit. Assuming a Fire / Grass is going to get Fire Blast and Solarbeam in no way faulty. Why should we cater moves to an ability that we know requires catering to?

After running my calculations again, Fire's would become good checks assuming the best case scenario of a Fire move on the switch...and since Stealth Rock will most likely always be done with this "stall type" Pokemon, you can sure as hell assume that our Fire / Grasser will be Leech Seeding the majority of the time (as a Fire move would boost a lot of Fires, while Leech Seed would only cause it to have a disadvantage against Tentacruel.
Yea, Fires aren't counters, lol. You guys are thinking of "checks."

Also, even more LOL, if you guys want to keep Fires as checks, you sure as hell better listen to me and not give this thing Earthquake or Rock Slide / Stone Edge / Head Smash (lmao).

I've stated this before.

EDIT: Also Kira, Flash Fire Pokemon not being OU (besides Heatran) is a good thing because that would mean this thing has decentralized the metagame. However, I'm stressing that Fires are NOT counters, they are checks.

 

[beej]

You mean the meta would have to shift? Is that really a bad thing? Last I checked, that's kind of the point of CaP, remove stagnation. If only we could do something about that blasted Gengar.

If people need at least one Flash Fire pokemon on a team to deal with this pokemon, is that not overcentralization?

 

[Aldaron]

Beej, while I think Dane is a bit extreme with his decentralization theories, I'm going to have to agree with him here in saying that Flash Fire Pokemon becoming more used in this case is a situation of decentralization, not overcentralization.

Here, the Flash Fire Pokemon will merely be checks, not counters, so they won't be instantly added to every team to counter this, since they CANNOT.

They merely check, not counter.

 

[Aldaron]

Kira, your scenario is a situation of clear overcentralization, while this is in no way clear. Why would you even post something like that?

=/

 

[latinoheat]

its not a case of decentralization at all its just a shift, instead of everyone using say the same 20 pokemon all of sudden everyone using a different 20 pokemon who just happen to be fire pokemon. You start putting auto rain and sun everywhere watch things like hippodown go down in usage.

 

[Dane]

No, Fire Pokemon do NOT counter this guy, they merely check him. You guys are spreading false information :/

Hidden Power Rock (what many agreed to be the standard on this guy) 2HKOs the majority of the Fires...how bloody balls is that a counter?

So are you going to be throwing out HP Rocks all over the place expecting a Fire Pokemon to switch in? What then if they don't switch in a Fire Pokemon? The sheer fear of FlashFire has caused you to attack with your weakest attack.

If you aren't throwing out HP Rocks, then who cares? Grass attacks do crap to fire Pokemon, especially since most have good SpDef and resist it.

You're assuming that Woodman Fire Blasts on the switch and activates Flash Fire...

317 SpA Woodman's HP Rock is a 2HKO with Leftovers (probably not on Arcanine anyway) 87% of the time assuming 4 HP / 0 SpD.

And you're assuming that Woodman HP Rocks on the switch.

Also, don't say that Fires are going to be running HP and SpD, lol. That's just as silly as saying Heracross is running HP Ice so Gliscor isn't a counter. Fires aren't going to completely debilitate themselves JUST to counter this thing.

Because obviously Pokemon don't run those EVs, right? Arcanine and Ninetales, if nothing else, already use a lot of HP EVs. Not only that, but Flareon and Ninetales (don't recall the others' SpDef) have 100+ SpDef. If you resist grass, and have 100+ defense spDef, you don't take much from grass knot/energy ball. Not only that, but most Fire Pokemon aren't that heavy so grass knot's BP is even lower.

As for Doug's suggestion that this isn't getting Fire Blast and we should cater the moves to the ability...I think that is preposterous. We are human beings not machines...we can think ahead a little bit. Assuming a Fire / Grass is going to get Fire Blast and Solarbeam in no way faulty. Why should we cater moves to an ability that we know requires catering to?

Because ability is voted on first, and if there are so many problems with over powered attacks, yet that ability gets voted on, you should lower the power of the attacks?

After running my calculations again, Fire's would become good checks assuming the best case scenario of a Fire move on the switch...and since Stealth Rock will most likely always be done with this "stall type" Pokemon, you can sure as hell assume that our Fire / Grasser will be Leech Seeding the majority of the time (as a Fire move would boost a lot of Fires, while Leech Seed would only cause it to have a disadvantage against Tentacruel.

So let's see. Your movepool is Fire Blast/Grass Knot/Leech Seed/HP Rock.

One attack is absorbed and grants more power to the user. This is the only attack affected by Sunny Day, btw.

Grass Knot is base damage, and likely lower than against most other threats due to the weight of many Flash Fire Pokemon. Then, it gets cut in half because it's resisted. Then, you look at SpDef. Three of the Flash Fire Pokemon have 80 SpDef. The other three have 100, 106, and 110. While their HP isn't exactly "huge", two are in the 60s, two in the 70s, and the other two in the 90s. That's not a lot of damage being taken.

Leech Seed helps it somewhat, but again look at those HPs. They aren't exactly huge, so it won't be absorbing much. Then your own Sunny Day will be helping their Fire Blasts, which hits neutral and has STAB. They're more likely to 3hko you than you are to 2hko them, considering they all have more than 60 speed. Even Flareon outspeeds this.

HP rock... unless you have mad predict skills, or your opponent is super predictable, are you really going to be throwing HP rocks around hoping they switch to a fire or flying Pokemon? It's your weakest move overall.

Yea, Fires aren't counters, lol. You guys are thinking of "checks."

No, you're just over-theorymoning. You can't assume to be throwing out HP Rocks all over the place, not when your argument for it being overpowered is that it's Fire Blast is getting strengthened.

Also, even more LOL, if you guys want to keep Fires as checks, you sure as hell better listen to me and not give this thing Earthquake or Rock Slide / Stone Edge / Head Smash (lmao).

I've been saying the same. In fact, I've been advocating this even without Sunny Day/Greenhouse. It shouldn't get those typings outside of HP period, no matter it's ability.

 

[beej]

There still has to be WAY more options against this than just Heatran or Arcanine. At this point, I think that the movepool is going to be what makes or breaks this pokemon.

 

[Dane]

There still has to be WAY more options against this than just Heatran or Arcanine. At this point, I think that moves are going to be what makes or breaks this pokemon.

There are other options against it. Flash Fire (6 of them, not 2) is just the one with a flat out immunity + resistance to both STABs.

 

[Aldaron]

Dane, you're a fool if you think a counter isn't DEFINED as something that can switch into ANY of the Pokemon's move.

But before that, THAT IS WHY I AM ASSUMING THEY SWITCH INTO HIDDEN POWER ROCK. BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU DETERMINE A COUNTER.

That's why "checks" exist. You are speaking of a check and not realizing it.

 

[beej]

There are other options against it. Flash Fire (6 of them, not 2) is just the one with a flat out immunity + resistance to both STABs.

Are you seriously calling Rapidash and FLAREON options? =/ Torkoal does well against Dusknoir, but it doesn't mean it should even be used.

 

[Aldaron]

Yes he is Beej :/ That is good for the metagame...increasing usage...

However, Dane needs to realize he speaking of checks, not counters.

It is the absolute worst sin in this project to spread false information, and he and Deck Knight are doing this currently.

By the standard definition of counter ON THIS SITE, a Pokemon has to switch into all the moves of the Pokemon and pose immediate threat.

Just because Dane was being Pedantic and mentioning how with some EV investment those 2HKOs are turned into 3HKOs, LET ME MENTION THAT THE MAJORITY of the tenured staff on this site DO NOT consider 3HKO to be a counter, just a check.

That is why I called Aerodactyl and Crobat hazy counters at best, because they were in fact 3HKOd by a maximum special attack Woodman. I did say hazy counters, but I'm willing to change that to checks.

 

[Dane]

Dane, you're a fool if you think a counter isn't FUCKING DEFINED as something that can switch into ANY of the Pokemon's move.

So what counters Garchomp then? What can switch into Outrage, Fire Blast, AND Earthquake? How many of those are actually used as counters? Last I checked, his common counters include things such as Steel types (hello Fire Blast) and Ice types (again, hello Fire Blast).

Have a fucking nice day.

And to you, Mr Over-react.

But before that, THAT IS WHY I AM ASSUMING THEY SWITCH INTO HIDDEN POWER ROCK. BECAUSE THAT IS HOW YOU DETERMINE A COUNTER.

Then Forretress and Skarmory don't counter Garchomp. They can't switch into a Fire Blast.

Fucking christ, that's why "checks" exist. You are speaking of a check and not realizing it.

No, I'm speaking of a counter. A check is a freaking "Revenge Killer", without the assurance of Pursuit.

Are you seriously calling Rapidash and FLAREON options? =/ Torkoal does well against Dusknoir, but it doesn't mean it should even be used.

While Flareon isn't good, Rapidash is perfectly usable. It DOES get Hypnosis, Will o Wisp, Flare Blitz, and Megahorn you know.

Remember, everyone thought Tentacruel sucked, until they realized it countered Infernape.

Yes he is Beej :/ That is good for the metagame...increasing usage...

However, Dane needs to realize he speaking of checks, not counters.

It is the absolute worst sin in this project to spread false information, and he and Deck Knight are doing this currently.

By the standard definition of counter ON THIS SITE, a Pokemon has to switch into all the moves of the Pokemon and pose immediate threat.

No, you're the one spreading false information. If something has to be able to take any and all moves, then a lot of pokemon have no counters. Infernape, Garchomp, Lucario, Gengar, etc. Nothing can take EVERY one of their attacks.

Just because Dane was being Pedantic and mentioning how with some EV investment those 2HKOs are turned into 3HKOs, LET ME MENTION THAT THE MAJORITY of the tenured staff on this site DO NOT consider 3HKO to be a counter, just a check.

Umm, no. I was saying the counters (not checks) can 3hko Woodman before he can 2hko them. Because they can outspeed him, and thus get a third hit in before he does. Granted I realize I mistyped it before, as I meant to say they can 2hko him before he 2hkos them.

 

[Notty]

Why is it a bad thing if lesser used Pokemon become more viable?

If we make something that counters commonly used Pokemon, and requires less common Pokemon to beat it, that's a good thing in my book.

 

[DougJustDoug]

As for Doug's suggestion that this isn't getting Fire Blast and we should cater the moves to the ability...I think that is preposterous. We are human beings not machines...we can think ahead a little bit. Assuming a Fire / Grass is going to get Fire Blast and Solarbeam in no way faulty. Why should we cater moves to an ability that we know requires catering to?

We do movepool last for a reason. And we do alter the movepool based on stats and ability. If you were around for Syclant, you would remember the uproar when Megahorn was not on the movelist. Even though it was roundly assumed throughout the project that Megahorn would be there, it was left off. And for a good reason -- Syclant's stats, ability, and typing were just too good to allow it.

While I would normally think a Fire poke has Fire Blast (they all do), that does not mean we are obligated to give it to this pokemon.

Damage output is the result of many factors, but BP is the single biggest factor. If we don't like the damage output potential of this pokemon, it is EASILY addressed during the movepool polls. I don't care about game precedent and I don't care about art. If this gets autosun, we need to account for that in the movepool. It's really not that revolutionary a concept.

If, in the end, this pokemon yields the same total damage output that you originally envisioned in the first place, then what's the problem?

 

[Kira]

Why is it a bad thing if lesser used Pokemon become more viable?

If we make something that counters commonly used Pokemon, and requires less common Pokemon to beat it, that's a good thing in my book.

Nothing is wrong with it, but Aldaron is arguing that those pokemon DONT counter it....

So those lesser used pokemon wont actually become more viable.

 

[Aldaron]

Dane I edited my post :(

Lol, give me at least 5 minutes after each post to edit it out haha.

I always tend to overshoot the initial point ;)

And no lol Dane, you're still spreading false information.

Guess what was realized by every decent battler out there?

You're right, Garchomp and Lucario have no counters. Welcome to the debates of yesterday.

You honestly have no idea what you are talking about if you think a Pokemon getting 2HKOed or 3HKOed is a Counter.

EDIT: Can someone else please inform resident Dane that yes, Garchomp and Lucario in fact have no counters, and that he is speaking of a check if the Pokemon is 2HKOed or 3HKOed?

I have a feeling he isn't going to realize this FACT if I say it.