CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9.5 (Main/Secondary Ability Poll)

[Dane]

Dane I edited my post :(

Lol, give me at least 5 minutes after each post to edit it out haha.

I always tend to overshoot the initial point ;)

NEVAH! =P

And no lol Dane, you're still spreading false information.

Guess what was realized by every decent battler out there?

You're right, Garchomp and Lucario have no counters. Welcome to the debates of yesterday.

What about all the other Pokemon with huge movepools? Oh yeah, Heracross was the other one I forgot to mention earlier. They all can cover pretty much everything, does that mean they're broken? If so, then why aren't they in ubers? If it's good enough for all these other Pokemon, why is this Pokemon the exception?

You honestly have no idea what you are talking about if you think a Pokemon getting 2HKOed or 3HKOed is a Counter.

By one move, out of four. Honestly, when you have the choice between: 270BP, (assuming average of 80 for grass knot) 120BP, healing with residual damage, or 70Bp... which are you going to throw when you're unsure? Odds are, Fire Blast or Leech Seed, unless you KNOW they have a Flash Fire Pokemon.

EDIT: Can someone else please inform resident Dane that yes, Garchomp and Lucario in fact have no counters, and that he is speaking of a check if the Pokemon is 2HKOed or 3HKOed?

I have a feeling he isn't going to realize this FACT if I say it.

See above comment. If no "counters" because of Hidden Power means it's broken, overpowered, etc... then why aren't the many already in OU shipped off to Ubers? If it's no problem for them, then why is it a problem for this Pokemon?

 

[Crossfiyah]

Battle Armor,due to the armor.

Flash Fire, also due to the armor. A fire attack hits the wood, it catches fire, and he does more damage due to being driven by fire.

Rock Head doesn't really make any sense unless you're trying to build this thing solely to be competitive, which seems counterproductive.

 

[Aldaron]

Dane, the last point you bring up is something that has been bothering battlers for the past 3 months...

How the royal fuck do we define Uber?

Yea...we don't know...

Pokemon like Garchomp and Lucario and the like, with no clear cut counters, remain in OU because we came to one significant realization...the no counters argument does not apply.

I am not even mentioning this thing's uber status, however. I don't think it is, but testing will determine that.

What I am mentioning is that Pokemon 2HKOed or 3HKOed are not counters by the definition of this site, that is all.

It may seem pedantic to demand they survive all the moves, but just be happy I'm not some who sticks to the true definition of counter, which is actually it can switch "repeatedy," which Fires certainly cannot ;)

 

[Dane]

Ok, if you want to use that exact definition, fine. There are no counters. Everything is hit Neutral or better by this with HP. With or without Greenhouse/Sunny Day, they're all hit the same.

However, Fire Pokemon are perfectly fine switch-ins. I hate the term "check". For some reason, I imagine some guy walking onto the battle field and throwing a yellow card at Woodman, and giving him a penalty.

 

[Aldaron]

Well, Tentacruel and Togekiss are 4HKOed :X The line for counter is usually stretched to 4HKO butttt...that's just being pedantic lol

The only things that really upset me about Auto Sunny day are, like Doug has reiterated, speculations.

I'm in a slight quandary as I know literally 75% of the checks I instituted in that spread are removed by auto Sunny Day, but, like Doug has said and we have reiterated, testing determines uber status and honestly, having no counters isn't a HUGE issue so meh...

 

[Tsukikage]

Battle Armour
Rock Head

Battle Armour because, well, look at it. Rock Head for the physical moveset. As for Greenhouse, even though I am against it, I am very willing to test it out if it should win. Also agreeing with X-Act that we should try it, but not with this Pokemon right now.

 

[Screw-On Head]

Battle Armor
Sniper

 

[Beav232]

Main Ability: Battle Armor

Secondary Ability: Sniper

 

[Aki]

First i'd like to get this outta the way:

Aki must be an idiot if he thinks the functional equivalent of a flinch-proof Focus Punch isn't going to randomly be put on a special set for the express purpose of raping fire types. Even if it gets Rock Head, Head Smash is out of the question. No Rock moves or Ground moves on this.

Honestly, without significant EV investment it's not going to be doing much more, if any more then HP Rock. If you're really concerned about it, then we need to give it another recoil move (Is there anymore?)


Doug has brought up an extremely valid point in the Weather thread. We should do as he says, which basically is devote the next project to a spilt Auto sun/Auto Rain pokemon(s), and leave greenhouse off the list now, and let those people go back and Edit their votes in.

We've come across the concept far too soon. Sure, it would be all fun and games to give it to woodman and see what happens to the Metagame (We can change it later), but we'd be honestly be better off making a few more top tier OU things like Tar(Within reason).

To all those against Battle Armour: Really it's insurance. You've lost the ability slot to make sure that 6.25% of the time you arn't wiped out by hax. IMO There are better abilities, but some of them would be broken or simply don't fit.

To Dane and Aldaron: Aldaron's already specified what a check was wayyyyy back. IIRC It differs from a revenge killer in the way that it can only switchin some of the time, and not on all attacks.

How the royal fuck do we define Uber?

IIRC the best way is to chuck it on an uber team and see how well it performs. [/obvious]

 

[Notty]

How a Pokemon performs in Ubers has no basis on it's standing in OU. (See: Metagross)

 

[Stall]

IIRC the best way is to chuck it on an uber team and see how well it performs. [/obvious]

So...Blissey, Gross, Tar, Hera, Garchomp, Skarmory, Forry, Gengar, Heatran, Celebi, Tentacruel and more are ALL Uber?

Yes, I have used all of the above, as well as other OU Pokes, in Uber, with good success.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Doug has brought up an extremely valid point in the Weather thread. We should do as he says, which basically is devote the next project to a spilt Auto sun/Auto Rain pokemon(s), and leave greenhouse off the list now, and let those people go back and Edit their votes in.

He actually said that. If so then I guess he won't mind if I take Greenhouse off the list.

 

[Aki]

No, it dosen't mean that all those should be relegated to ubers, but if you wanna find out for yourself then test them and see if they are viable.

 

[DougJustDoug]

He actually said that. If so then I guess he won't mind if I take Greenhouse off the list.

At this point, it's just discussion. Don't pull the trigger on anything yet. I would love your input in the other thread though.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

At this point, it's just discussion. Don't pull the trigger on anything yet. I would love your input in the other thread though.

I haven't yet. I tend to wait until I get a reply from the original creator before doing something. Don't want the person pissed off at me because they didn't wanted their stuff off the list or something like that.

As for input, I really don't have much to say about your proposal. Its a good idea to be honest. Having two teams, each creating an Auto-Weather pokemon sounds like a blast.

 

[Stall]

I haven't yet. I tend to wait until I get a reply from the original creator before doing something. Don't want the person pissed off at me because they didn't wanted their stuff off the list or something like that.

As for input, I really don't have much to say about your proposal. Its a good idea to be honest. Having two teams, each creating an Auto-Weather pokemon sounds like a blast.

Yeah, I tend to agree with what appears to be the majority here. I think the Red vs Blue is a great idea, and will really help diversify the metagame better than giving Woodman a weather-inducing ability would.

To replace Green House, what if we gave it an 'auto dry-rock' ability, where is counts as holding the sun-boosting item, while letting it hold something else?

 

[Sunday]

IMO It's probably a little late into the abilitys poll to start chopping and changing the ability. The previous votes for it could never count as they now would no longer represent what the person was saying they wanted when they voted. For me, it's time to knuckle down with what we've already got as options and maybe do a little prelim-count to see how the results are shaping up. We can use that to formulate our discussions.

 

[Tsukikage]

IMO It's probably a little late into the abilitys poll to start chopping and changing the ability. The previous votes for it could never count as they now would no longer represent what the person was saying they wanted when they voted. For me, it's time to knuckle down with what we've already got as options and maybe do a little prelim-count to see how the results are shaping up. We can use that to formulate our discussions.

Currently, Greenhouse is in third, so if no one else voted for it, it wouldn't matter.

 

[Dane]

IMO It's probably a little late into the abilitys poll to start chopping and changing the ability. The previous votes for it could never count as they now would no longer represent what the person was saying they wanted when they voted.

It would be easy enough to have people edit their votes and replace Greenhouse with another ability.

 

[Captain]

Imo, if the next CaP was gonna be about a greenhouse pokemon, I'd be happy to have greenhouse dropped off the list. I'm with Dane it'd be pretty easy for me to go back and edit my vote.

 

[Hyra]

Everyone keeps mentioning the unearthly devastation of this pokemon's Fire Blast in the sun. Did I miss the movepool vote? When did it get Fire Blast? Oh, wait a minute... I forgot that, like everything else on this pokemon, people have jumped a few polls ahead and just assumed their outcome.

I realize this is unbelievable to propose, but perhaps we might not give it moves that are overpowered? Overpowered in terms of what has already been voted. Like ability.

If the ability makes certain moves overpowered, then don't give it the moves. It's that simple. I don't give a damn what the art looks like. If this pokemon gets an ability that will allow it to OHKO every pokemon in the game, why on earth would we give it that move? Because it has artwork that "looks like it should have it"? No way. Art is nice and all, but it doesn't justify giving it broken moves.

Is it because every Fire type in the game gets Fire Blast? I admit, that's awfully compelling. But, there is no rule book that I have read that says we are obligated to do this. We can do whatever the heck we want. Personally, I think Fire Blast is a broken move to begin with. It should have 70% accuracy like every other 120 BP move. If this thing gets autosun I will argue loud and long that Fire Blast should be removed from it's TM list. Hell, maybe take off Flamethrower too.

How do you know what this thing can hurt? If it's best special Fire move is Ember, then every pokemon in existence will laugh at this thing in the sun.

I really don't know where you people are getting this stuff. This pokeman has absolutely NO moves in its movepool, yet you've already determined it has no counters.

Once again, this is theorymon and speculation-mon of galactic proportions.

As for Doug's suggestion that this isn't getting Fire Blast and we should cater the moves to the ability...I think that is preposterous. We are human beings not machines...we can think ahead a little bit. Assuming a Fire / Grass is going to get Fire Blast and Solarbeam in no way faulty. Why should we cater moves to an ability that we know requires catering to?

Doug, I have to disagree with you entirely. Syclant losing Megahorn is not comparable to this losing Fire Blast. iirc, Heracross is the only Bug-type with Megahorn; it's not a staple of their movepools. Messing with an order clearly set up by Gamefreak just to justify one ability is a little ridiculous. I mean, this generation Gamefreak made it exceedingly obvious that they wanted Fire-types to be good in the sun; they gave every single one of them SolarBeam, when most of them have no justification for it.

Also, some of the most random Pokemon have Fire Blast. Slowbro, Snorlax, and Lickilicky get it. None of these show any justification for it. Everyone knows Fire Blast is the most widely distributed non-filler TM. It's very different from Flare Blitz, in that only Fire Pokemon get it and most get it through level-up. Flareon just got the short end of the stick, probably because the other Eeveelutions could not get 120 BP STAB moves. Fire Blast is given to anything that doesn't have justification against it.

Removing Fire Blast from this is less professional than giving Syclant Fire Fang. And Fire Fang isn't even used and we hear complaints about it.

 

[Aki]

Agreed with Hyra: There's just some things that we HAVE to give this thing. We take the simplest route out on this one.

And L_S: It's not hard for people to go back and edit their votes; all un-edited votes for Greenhouse would just be ignored. The other ability, though, would be counted.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Pending the outcome of the current Weather Project Poll, this thread will be locked. We will reopen this poll, when the Weather Project Poll is decided.

 

[DougJustDoug]

OK. Greenhouse is no longer an option. We'll have a dedicated Weather Project next time (workshop thread opening shortly).

GT, please edit the OP with instructions of how we should change our votes. Should we edit our original posts or make new posts with our changed votes?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

GT, please edit the OP with instructions of how we should change our votes. Should we edit our original posts or make new posts with our changed votes?

Just got finished editting the OP with the ruling regarding Greenhouse removal. How do you like it?