CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)

[Nokocchi]

I was responding to the arctic one's comment on

"Generally you need two blades to use X-scissor, those floaty things on darkrai's arms probably count as blades"

And I see you can't come up with anything for Seviper... Unless thy're refferign to its tail.

So I guess like Seviper, Woodman can use his Tail.

 

[eric the espeon]

TM/HM list

I suppose X-Scissor could fit on this thing, but it does not fit very well IMO. Its not like it needs it, if more people support adding it I will add it to the TM/HM list.

Reposting this so more people will see it.

A list of possible learn able TM/HMs.

Bold is debatable for balance.
Italic is debatable for flavour.
Both is debatable for both.

Remember this thing has 70 base attack and 95 base Sp. attack, but great defences.

Tm's/HM's:
TM 04-Calm Mind
TM 05-Roar
TM 06-Toxic
TM 08-Bulk Up
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam
TM 17-Protect
TM 19-Giga Drain
TM 21-Frustration
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM 27-Return
TM 28-Dig
TM 30-Shadow Ball kinda fits but not very
TM 31-Brick Break: only 75 base power, lets it do something to Blissey. It also lets it take on Heatran if you invest a lot in attack.
TM 32-Double Team
TM 34-Shock Wave could stop flying Pokemon.
TM 35-Flamethrower
TM 36-Sludge Bomb
TM 38-Fire Blast
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 40-Aerial Ace (Tyranitar gets it, come on)
TM 42-Façade
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat
TM 52-Focus Blast lets Growth-Woodman fight Blissey/Tran, it fits well from a flavour perspective though.
TM 53-Energy Ball
TM 56-Fling
TM 57-Charge Beam
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp mmm... this would stop TTar in its tracks and make any Phy. counter useless IMO not a good idea.
TM 66-Payback
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM 75-Sword Dance hmm with a decent movepool SD could work well, maybe too well.
TM 76-Stealth Rock
TM 80-Rock Slide
TM 82-Sleep Talk
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 84-Poison Jab
TM 86-Grass Knot
TM 87-Swagger
TM 89-U-Turn
TM 90-Substitute
TM 91-Flash Cannon

HM 04-Strength
HM 06-Rock Smash
HM 08-Rock Climb

TMs we may need to vote on IMO:
W-o-W
Charge Beam
Sword Dance
Brick Break

 

[the_artic_one]

Seviper's tail is a huge blade (and I imagine he does X-scissor with his fangs + tail). Woodman's tail leaf looks far more flimsy, not to mention his tail being more whip like (it would be harder to change it's direction to do the two cuts whereas seviper could conceivably pull it off).

 

[hinode]

Wasn't the original purpose of picking a bulky, high HP stat distribution so this could be a viable user of Grass support moves rather than just a fast sweeper/subseeder? As a kneejerk I'd prefer that stuff like Synthesis and Stun Spore be tested experimentally than stuff like Rock Slide and Swords Dance. Then again if Aldaron and/or Mekkah is getting cold feet on Stun Spore I'll defer to them, since they built this stat spread wit specific checks in mind.

Worry Seed should definately be an egg move at least, as well as Ingrain. Aromatherapy might be an interesting option, but it doesn't seem to fit the design at all.

Brick Break would literally only be used for Heatran on this. Blissey and T-tar would take more damage from recoil-free Wood Hammer, as do everything else that's weak to Fighting. Seems fine to me at a glance, since Heatran can probably take a hit from this anyways.

Rock Slide I'm more wary of because it screws over Moltres and Charizard, two Pokemon that woodman would ideally promote usage of as checks if not counters. Then again between Stealth Rock, Ancientpower, and HP Rock that might be a lost cause already.

Shock Wave I severely doubt would even get use, let alone be overpowered. It does no more damage than Fire Blast against anything but Gyarados who takes an effective 180 from Grass Knot already and the Fire/Flying duo who get destroyed by Ancientpower.

 

[TekkenStorm]

No, the original purpose was to make a pokemon balanced in its attacking and defensive stats but some guy messed every thing up making him too much in the defencive way making him broken.

 

[eric the espeon]

No, the original purpose was to make a pokemon balanced in its attacking and defensive stats but some guy messed every thing up making him too much in the defencive way making him broken.

lol, but its kinda true..
the votes were for balanced, but people saw the names "Aldaron&Mekkah" and other people supporting it and bandwagon'd it to win, it was a good spread for defensive but not balanced.

Its a Skarm in Phy. defense and Togekiss Sp. defecively with 70/95 attacks and crap speed..... oh well

hinode taking your point about rock slide.. more opinions?

 

[Dane]

Level up Moves:
01. Bullet Seed
07. Focus Energy
11. Fire Punch
16. Iron Head
21. Stun Spore
27. Seed Bomb
33. Flamethrower
40. Leech Seed
45. Flash Cannon
49. Energy Ball
53. Double Edge
57. Grasswhistle
62. Fire Blast
69. Aura Sphere
73. Flare Blitz

TM Moves:
-05 Roar
-06 Toxic
-09 Bullet Seed
-10 Hidden Power
-11 Sunny Day
-12 Taunt
-15 Hyper Beam
-16 Light Screen
-17 Protect
-20 Safeguard
-21 Frustration
-22 Solarbeam
-27 Return
-30 Shadow Ball
-31 Brick Break
-33 Reflect
-35 Flamethrower
-36 Sludge Bomb
-38 Fire Blast
-44 Rest
-50 Overheat
-53 Energy Ball
-58 Endure
-61 Will-o-wisp
-82 Sleep Talk
-86 Grass Knot
-90 Substitute
-91 Flash Cannon
-HM04 Strength

Egg Moves:
Aromatherapy (Meganium)
Dragon Rush (Dragonite, Garchomp, Charizard, Aggron, Altaria, Salamence, Rhyperior)
Growth (Venusaur, Tropius, Torterra, Abomasnow)
Howl (Exploud)
Leaf Storm (Sceptile, Tropius, Torterra, Venusaur, Meganium)
Rapid Spin (Blastoise)
Synthesis (Venusaur, Meganium, Tropius, Torterra, Sceptile)
Wood Hammer (Torterra, Abomasnow)
Worry Seed (Venusaur, Sceptile, Torterra)

Egg Groups - Monster and Dragon




Obviously this can be edited, but I put in what I feel is a good range of options. Added Aromatherapy, Rapid Spin, and Synthesis to the egg moves rather than standard movepool.
1) Yes, Synthesis
2) Howl and Growth seem reasonable. I would say Harden fits perfectly, but a defense booster seems too powerful. Any stat uppers need to be egg moves though, imo.
3) See list
4) Monster and Dragon, just like Charizard and Sceptile
5) See list


I believe this list grants a wide array of sets, while limiting it to the point that you can't overpower it (ie: No Howl + Flare Blitz + Wood Hammer, Rapid Spin wouldn't be usable with any other egg move, etc).

 

[Nokocchi]

Rock Tomb and Ancientpower should still be options instead of RS and SE.

Neither are all that powerful.
-Rock Tomb suffers from low power AND accuracy.
-AP, with only 5-8 PP, won't be very useful on it in the long run, especially with its paltry 60 BP.

IMO, the only Good AP Users are Togekiss and Dunsparce. 20% chance to raise all stats is smexy.

EDIT: @Dane AURA SPHERE? Are you F***in' high or something?

And it needs more crap Level-up Moves, like Ember or Absorb or something.

 

[Sisen]

no need to quote the whole post, the thread is long enough

I second that. This is the best set I have seen.

 

[Nokocchi]

-- Flare Blitz
-- Rage
-- Absorb
-- Growl
07 Harden
13 Ember
18 Flame Wheel
25 Mega Drain
29 Take Down
33 Iron Defense
36 Fire Spin
41 Energy Ball
47 Flamethrower
52 Seed Bomb
57 Fire Blast
61 Double-Edge
67 Wood Hammer
72 Hyper Beam

Plant/Monster
EGG: Ingrain (Cradily, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Grasswhistle (Sunflora, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Leaf Storm (Torterra, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Ancientpower (Tangela, Cradily, ect.)
EGG: Skull Bash (Blastoise)
EGG: Leech Seed (Venusaur, Sceptile, ect.)
EGG: Psybeam (Venomoth/Butterfree --> Parasect)
EGG: Heat Wave (Charizard)

TMS/HMS:
TM 05-Roar
TM 06-Toxic
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam
TM 17-Protect
TM 19-Giga Drain
TM 21-Frustration
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM 27-Return
TM 30-Shadow Ball
TM 31-Brick Break
TM 32-Double Team
TM 34-Shock Wave
TM 35-Flamethrower
TM 36-Sludge Bomb
TM 38-Fire Blast
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 42-Façade
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat
TM 52-Focus Blast
TM 53-Energy Ball
TM 56-Fling
TM 57-Charge Beam
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp
TM 66-Payback
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM 76-Stealth Rock
TM 82-Sleep Talk
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 84-Poison Jab
TM 86-Grass Knot
TM 87-Swagger
TM 90-Substitute
TM 91-Flash Cannon
HM 04 Strength
HM 06 Rock Smash
HM 08 Rock Climb

-No Healing other than Leech Seed/Ingrain
-No Growth/Howl/Swords Dance/Bulk Up/Calm Mind
-No Aromatherapy

 

[TekkenStorm]

Well i just want you to see what happens if we give him rock slide/brick break

Woodman with Life Orb, Adamant and Max Atk Ev's deals this ammount of dmg to these pokemon :

Blissey : Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz 47.48% - 55.88%
Tyranitar : Brick Break 71.29% - 84.16%
Heatran : Brick Break 45.82% - 54.49%
Togekiss : Flare Blitz 52.14% - 61.23%
Moltres : Rock Slide 98.44% - 116.51%
Crobat : Flare Blitz 71.7% - 84.89%
Aerodactyl : Flare Blitz 88.04% - 103.99%
Tentacruel : Wood Hammer 88.04% - 103.99%
Garchomp : Wood Hammer 54.62% - 64.15%
Salamence : Rock Slide 37.46% - 44.71%

see? every counter would be counter'd except for Salamence because of his Ability and woodman will SD up when you switch to these "counters" and instead of 2HKO them he would OHKO most of them, then salamence would be 2HKO too so he would not be a good counter any more

*NOTE* for the ev's i used there stantard spread

 

[Mekkah]

I don't see a lot of OHKOs there. I also assume you meant Wood Hammer on Aerodactyl. He is also slower than every one of these except Blissey, and this set is also worse against pretty much everything else thanks to EVs shifted to offense, nature boosting a lower stat, Life Orb sapping his HP...it's like a Choice Band Zapdos.

 

[TekkenStorm]

Well for the OHKO's i ment after he would SwordsDance up, all those calculations are BEFORE Swords Dance so after he got atleast 1 up he would OHKO most of them.

 

[Nokocchi]

I spruced up my set idea some. I made sure it wasn't broken

 

[Nokocchi]

Where are the crap moves, though? Iron Head at level 16?

STUN SPORE?

AURA SPHERE?!?

That's being too generous, IMO.

 

[The.Lost.Hylian]

Level Up Moves:
1. Tail Whip
1. Ember
5. Smokescreen
9. Bullet Seed
13. Focus Energy
16. Fire Spin
18. Leech Seed
21. Mega Drain
24. Will-o-Wisp
28. Charge Beam
32. Sunny Day
36. Giga Drain
45. Flamethrower
52. Solarbeam
57. Synthesis
65. Wood Hammer

Egg Moves
Monster and Plant breeding groups
-Light Screen (Meganium)
-Curse (Torterra)
-Leaf Storm (Sceptile)
-Heat Wave (Charizard)
-Psybeam (Parasect; bred)
-Ice Beam (Lapras)
-Growth (Venusaur)

TM/HM List:
TM5 Roar
TM6 Toxic
TM8 Bulk Up
TM9 Bullet Seed
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM19 Giga Drain
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solarbeam
TM23 Iron Tail
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Dig
TM29 Psychic
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM34 Shock Wave
TM35 Flamethrower
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Theif
TM49 Snatch
TM50 Overheat
TM52 Focus Blast
TM53 Energy Ball
TM57 Charge Beam
TM58 Endure
TM59 Dragon Pulse
TM61 Will-o-Wisp
TM63 Embargo
TM64 Explosion
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM70 Flash
TM75 Swords Dance
TM77 Psych Up
TM79 Dark Pulse
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
HM4 Strength
HM5 De Fog
HM6 Rock Smash
HM8 Rock Climb

1. Should it learn any recovery move other than Rest? Synthesis

2. Should it get any stat buffs at all? If yes then which one(s)? Swords Dance and Growth

4. Which Egg group this monster belong in? Monster and Plant

5. Saying of Egg groups, which egg move should it be able to learn? This question is most likely reflected on what egg group we will be in. Read above.

 

[sbc]

khold, SD+Wood Hammer+Fire Blast+Earthquake+Rock Head+Excellent defences, is rather broken.

 

[Nokocchi]

I edited my idea for a moveset again.

IMO, giving it any Att/Sp.Att Boost is out of the question. Same with a Non-Rest Recovery Move, witht he exceptions of Ingrain and Leech Seed.

 

[TekkenStorm]

Ah earthquake! so now theres no need for brick break anymore! we can earthquake both tyranitar and heatran to dead!

Woodman
Adamant
Life Orb
Rock Head
252 Atk, 236 Hp, 16 Speed
Swords Dance
Flare Blitz
Wood Hammer
Rock Slide/Earth Quake

 

[Mekkah]

Don't give it Ice Beam please, it hardly makes sense considering its cannons are all about heat, and it is a huge step towards "overpowered" (hits Togekiss and Zapdos SE, for one).

 

[Nokocchi]

Ah earthquake! so now theres no need for brick break anymore! we can earthquake both tyranitar and heatran to dead!

Woodman
Adamant
Life Orb
Rock Head
252 Atk, 236 Hp, 16 Speed
Swords Dance
Flare Blitz
Wood Hammer
Rock Slide/Earth Quake

Woodman needs counter, you know.

And Swords Dance is over-doing it.

WHY does everyone want soem Uber-unbeatable-monster that can counter all of its counters?

-- Flare Blitz
-- Rage
-- Tackle
-- Growl
07 Absorb
13 Ember
18 Flame Wheel
25 Mega Drain
29 Take Down
33 Leech Seed
36 Fire Spin
41 Energy Ball
47 Flamethrower
52 Seed Bomb
57 Fire Blast
61 Double-Edge
67 Wood Hammer
72 Hyper Beam

Plant/Monster
EGG: Ingrain (Cradily, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Grasswhistle (Sunflora, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Leaf Storm (Torterra, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Ancientpower (Tangela, Cradily, ect.)
EGG: Skull Bash (Blastoise)
EGG: Psybeam (Venomoth/Butterfree --> Parasect)
EGG: Heat Wave (Charizard)

TMS/HMS:
TM 05-Roar
TM 06-Toxic
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam
TM 17-Protect
TM 19-Giga Drain
TM 21-Frustration
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM 27-Return
TM 30-Shadow Ball
TM 31-Brick Break
TM 32-Double Team
TM 34-Shock Wave
TM 35-Flamethrower
TM 36-Sludge Bomb
TM 38-Fire Blast
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 42-Façade
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat
TM 52-Focus Blast
TM 53-Energy Ball
TM 56-Fling
TM 57-Charge Beam
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp
TM 66-Payback
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM 76-Stealth Rock
TM 82-Sleep Talk
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 84-Poison Jab
TM 86-Grass Knot
TM 87-Swagger
TM 90-Substitute
TM 91-Flash Cannon
HM 04 Strength
HM 06 Rock Smash
HM 08 Rock Climb

-No Healing other than Leech Seed/Ingrain
-No Growth/Howl/Swords Dance/Bulk Up/Calm Mind
-No Aromatherapy

Why is my set being ignored, anyways?

 

[Fishin]

On growth vs Calm Mind...I mentioned why Growth wouldn't be overpowered in the previous topic, but I want to re-iterate why it's workable, since most people seem to be excluding in from their movesets. On the other hand, Calm Mind turns a lot of these counters into non-counters - I'll go ahead and bold the ones that can counter a Growth set, but not a Calm Mind set.

Growth/Fire Blast/Energy Ball/HP whatever loses solidly to Blissey (status isn't even necessary, Bliss can just wear this thing down with Ice Beam/Toss since it has no recovery and it's going to be doing lol% damage to Bliss), Cress (same reasons as Bliss), Snorlax, Togekiss, Tentacruel, and a whole bunch of other stuff depending on what Hidden Power type it's packing (Heatran would lose, Special Salamence would probably lose, Moltres would probably lose as well).

Growth/Fire Blast/Energy Ball/Rest wins against (non CM) Bliss and Cress, but still loses to Kiss, Lax, Tenta, and can't even begin to threaten Heatran. You've also got to deal with things coming in and phazing or just killing you while asleep. (Again, also wins against things like special) Salamence and Moltres since they can't damage it significantly after a CM or two.)

Growth/Fire Blast or Energy Ball/Rest/Sleep Talk...err, ripped to shreds by Heatran and everything else the above set loses to.

Since many of Woodman's counters are going to be leaning toward the special side (given its great defense), Calm Mind really screws up a lot of them. Some things are still capable of beating it, but the counter list is a whole lot smaller, enough to warrant consideration.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Pound
Growl
Ember
7. Bullet Seed
13. Headbutt
17. Growth
21. Leech Seed
23. Seed Bomb
28. WOW
33. Energy Ball 
39. Sunny Day
45. Synthesis/Morning Sun
51. Flamethrower
57. Solar beam
63. Flare Blitz

[B]TM's[/B]
5 Roar 
9 Bullet Seed 
10 Hidden Power 
11 Sunny Day 
15 Hyper Beam 
16 Light Screen 
17 Protect 
19 Giga Drain 
21 Frustration 
22 SolarBeam 
23 Iron Tail 
27 Return 
32 Double Team 
33 Reflect 
34 Shock Wave 
35 Flamethrower 
36 Sludge Bomb 
38 Fire Blast 
42 Facade 
43 Secret Power 
44 Rest 
45 Attract 
50 Overheat 
53 Energy Ball 
58 Endure 
61 Will-O-Wisp 
70 Flash 
75 Swords Dance 
82 Sleep Talk 
83 Natural Gift 
86 Grass Knot 
87 Swagger 
90 Substitute 
91 Flash Cannon 

[B]Egg Moves[/B]

Aromatherapy
Wood Hammer
Worry Seed
Blaze Kick
Counter
Leaf Storm
Mud Bomb
Body Slam
Skull Bash

[B]Illegal Combinations[/B]

Aroma+Wood Hammer/Counter/Blaze Kick
Blaze Kick+Wood Hammer

Any opinions on aromatherapy?

Wow, you gotta love the movepool thread......

Actually, I hate it. It's just such a mashup of random stuff, I have a hard time processing it all. Good luck to GT trying to sort all this out. If you thought the first 9 polls were tough -- movepool is where the TL has to kick into high gear. Like I said -- best of luck to you.

After reading through everything posted so far -- I actually think latinoheat has the most balanced and reasonable starting movepool of all. Swords Dance is pushing it a little, but not as much as some others may think. I'd probably drop it and avoid the controversy. I dunno about Leaf Storm...

I love Aromatherapy on this pokemon! I think it totally fits the concept. This thing is basically burning wood -- think incense. Think aroma. Think aromatherapy. Not enough good pokes are decent status clerics. While I doubt this will be used that way, I like the idea of it being an option. It clearly fits, IMO.

 

[Raverist]

Yeah, SD does seem a bit overbalanced. Good point with Aromatherapy, though, though one also imagines that it could be used akin to burning cannabis and confusing the foe.

 

[Lil Ant]

Level Up Moves:
1. Leer
1. Tackle
5. Tail Whip
7. Ember
12.
16. Harden
18. Stun Spore
21. Leech Seed
24. AncientPower
28. Energy Ball
32. Flamethrower
40. Solar Beam
47. Dragon Dance
54. Overheat
59. Hyper Beam
65. Flare Blitz
71. Aeroblast
Egg Moves: (???/???)
- Wood Hammer
- Grasswhistle
- Double Edge
- Rock Blast
- Tail Wind
- Submission
- Weather Ball
- Take Down
- Howl

TM/HM List:
TM06 Toxic
TM09 Bullet Seed
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM19 Giga Drain
TM21 Fustration
TM22 SolarBeam
TM23 Iron Tail
TM27 Return
TM28 Dig
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM42 Facade
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM49 Snatch
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM58 Endure
TM60 Drain Punch
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM65 Shadow Claw
TM68 Giga Impact
TM69 Rock Polish
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
HM01 Cut
HM04 Strength
HM06 Rock Smash