The same way Wish/Protect/Flamethrower/Toxic Blissey beat Heatran. Stall it out of everything. Overheat, Leafstorm and Fire Blast only have 8 PP. Which are the only moves that will seriously hurt Umbreon. Wish, and Protect and make it drain PP. Other than that, yes Toxic stall it. Also Payback works wonders. 100 Base Power move for a tank is very cool to use.
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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
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Thanks Doug.At the moment, (apart from mine) I'm supporting the list X-Act made on page 1, because I consider it the most realistic so far.
Flamethrower and Toxic, against a Heatran? Besides, Umbreon doesn't have the sheer defensive ability to withstand that many attacks powerful attacks, and I'm sure if it somehow started surviving then the user would *gasp* switch!
Remember, a counter has to pose a threat. Preventing them from doing anything, but not doing anything in return, is not a counter.
If weakness means nothing, I guess Blissey enjoys taking Focus Blasts to the face, right? Just because you put someone on a list doesn't mean they actually counter it. If they take 50%+ damage just coming in, they aren't a counter. They have to be able to do it multiple times.
Besides, what about all the fire counters that aren't walls? They can't be used if this gets Weather Ball.
Both make it too powerful. Same end result on the argument table, different reasons. The argument isn't irrelevent, it removes counters, therefore it's perfectly relevent.
Please can you guys stop arguing? Neither is going to change their respective minds. Why not both leave each others ideas alone, and start looking at other ones that have been suggested.
i personally think lava plume is too good, imo burn is probably atleast the second best status in the game.
I can tell you haven't used quite a lot of Pokemon you're trying to bash. Umbreon does fine and does has the sheer defensive ability to withstand a lot of Special Attacks. It would probably be certain to be one of the top 5 OU Special Walls if people tried to use it. All of those Pokemon i have named on that list, i have used. Which is why i suggested them as counters. Also to answer your question, no, Blissey doesnt' enjoy taking Focus Blast. I never said Leonin liked taking Super Effective moves. If you would focus on reading what i said, instead of trying to make a witty ( even though you failed ) response you would know that. I said that some Pokemon can stand up to moves to are super effective against it. Note that most Focus Blast hitting Blissey is a 3hko or better. That is just with NO Special Defense investment.
So if you maybe INVEST in Special Defense you may be able to take more hits from a Specs 95 Base Special Attack ( hehe ) i repeat, Specs 95 Base Special Attack. It isn't like it has the move pool of Starmie or anything. Wait, so i guess, a Specs Starmie is broken? It has the movepool to seriously rip shit apart. While Leonin is more defensive, Starmie is a lot more swift.
Oh for the record Umbreon doesn't take 50% on while switching in on Fire Blast.
Damage: 159 - 187
Damage: 40.36% - 47.46%
Actually no the same end result isn't going to happen. Swords Dance makes this Pokemon broken. Weather Ball just adds a little bit of offense to his arsenal, without making it unstoppable.
1 last thing, i am wrong about a lot of things i said about Leonin. Even without Weather Ball or Swords Dance. It has absolutly no counters. It just has a few safe switch ins, or a little bit of things to scare it out.
1 last thing, i am wrong about a lot of things i said about Leonin. Even without Weather Ball or Swords Dance. It has absolutly no counters. It just has a few safe switch ins, or a little bit of things to scare it out.
So, any takers?
We're coming up with a whole heap of shit atm. Excellent suggestions have been made, but everyone has different ideas.
WE NEED TO WORK OUT THE FAR MAJORITY OF WHAT WE ARE GIVING THIS GUY.
Everyone's coming up with different moves left, right and centre. We need to work out what sort of moves we are giving Woodman, and what we arn't.
WE NEED TO WORK OUT THE FAR MAJORITY OF WHAT WE ARE GIVING THIS GUY.
Everyone's coming up with different moves left, right and centre. We need to work out what sort of moves we are giving Woodman, and what we arn't.
Why don't we just take the movesets that seem to be getting some support/look sensible, and put them to vote?
There's a reason it isn't used, and it isn't because people don't value him enough.
I don't even know what you're talking about here. I wasn't trying to be "witty", nor was I talking about Woodman taking hits, only dealing them. Maybe you should focus?
Give Starmie this thing's defenses in addition to Starmie's current attack and yes, it would be broken. I never said Woodman is broken, just that Weather Ball would be overpowered. Did you miss the discussion many threads ago about how we shouldn't give it natural ground, rock, or ice attacks?
Wow, 40%+ damage, and his only heal move would only heal 33% due to Sandstorm likely being up. That's quite a counter there.
I never said it'd be unstoppable, just overpowered. Garchomp is overpowered, but not unstoppable. Hell, you could bring in Rayquaza and it'd still be stoppable. Doesn't mean it isn't overpowered.
Okay, then why would you want to make that list even shorter by removing Fire types?
No natural rock/ground/ice attacks. ESPECIALLY ones like Ancient Power which can raise all of his stats.
As for movesets overall: GT needs to take the movesets, and make a "common set", with everything that the majority of sets have. Then, seperate out the crazy (swords dance) and put the rest up for an official vote. Preferably in a less cluttered topic.
What is wrong with Dragon Dance? I seriously don't see anything wrong with Dragon Dance being used.
Dragon Dance based of appearance: The Pokemon looks like a dragon, or a lizard, certain people have their intake on it. I was going to place Belly Drum instead seeing as most warriors tend to beat their chest before combat. But, i thought Dragon Dance seemed more appropiate.
Dragon Dance based of the Pokemon itself: Dragon Dance seems so perfect with this Pokemon. His attack is medicore at best. Even after 1 Dragon Dance, it only reaches to 393 if you chose to max it. Speed wise, you need to have boosting nature and max speed to surpass Gengar. Which in turn, hinders even the attack stat or the defensive stats. So it makes it less bulky or less offensive. Which in conclusion, balances the Pokemon out for usablility. So you're either bulky and slow, offensive and frail or so balanced you won't tell the difference ( attacking wise ) after the Dragon Dance boost.
Dragon Dance based of appearance: The Pokemon looks like a dragon, or a lizard, certain people have their intake on it. I was going to place Belly Drum instead seeing as most warriors tend to beat their chest before combat. But, i thought Dragon Dance seemed more appropiate.
Dragon Dance based of the Pokemon itself: Dragon Dance seems so perfect with this Pokemon. His attack is medicore at best. Even after 1 Dragon Dance, it only reaches to 393 if you chose to max it. Speed wise, you need to have boosting nature and max speed to surpass Gengar. Which in turn, hinders even the attack stat or the defensive stats. So it makes it less bulky or less offensive. Which in conclusion, balances the Pokemon out for usablility. So you're either bulky and slow, offensive and frail or so balanced you won't tell the difference ( attacking wise ) after the Dragon Dance boost.
Due to it's defensives, it was generally agreed long ago to not give it any +2 stat ups (this includes +1/+1).
Agreed. I'm not sifting through 6 pages of movepools to find the 5%-10% difference in each one.
So defensive Pokemon don't get stat up moves? At least i wasn't bold enough to give the damn thing Swords Dance. So i guess Gyarados with Intimidate on it's hands, along with Salamence, don't deserve Dragon Dance. Your boosting a 70 Base attack. Only + 1 a that, i don't think after 1 Dragon Dance it would kill the world. Especially if Charizard or Togekiss, or even Crobat ( who still outspeeds after 1 DD ) can come in and Air Slash or Brave Bird it. Salamence can come in and Intimidate it and then Aerial Ace or Stone Edge. Gyarados can do the same and hit it with Thunder Wave or Stone Edge it as well.
Good you think that because I'm about to add it to the OP for referance purposes.
And the majority wants what? Majority of them have: Howl, Zap Cannon, AncientPower(don't know why everyone's afraid of it), and a few other support moves.
So it doesn't eat a Life Orb Sludge Bomb? 393 Attack if you max it is hardly doing a damn thing to it's checks, lol. Aside Tentacruel, who doesn't even die with no defensive ev's after a 1 Dragon Dance'd Wood Hammer. Tyranitar does get OHKO after 1 DD Wood Hammer though.
Yea, I'm just going to reiterate that this thing should not get any Ice / Fighting / Rock / Ground moves stronger than 80 BP (I would argue even lower, but it isn't a huge deal at these lower BPs).
Why? Cause its checks / counters, namely Togekiss, Tentacruel, Aerodactyl, Crobat, Zapdos, general Fires and the like would like to remain checks / counters.
When viewing this Pokemon, I draw the Cresselia analogy.
Cresselia as a BST of 120 HP / 70 Atk / 120 Def / 75 SpA / 130 SpD / 85 Spe
Putting Cresselia into X-Act's Stat analyzer, we get that it is Average offensively on both sides, and Amazing (Rank 7) defensively on both sides. It's overall rating is 837, or Fantastic.
Our Pokemon has a BST of 120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe
Putting our Pokemon into that same analyzer, we get that it is below Average on the physically offensive side, Average on specially offensive side, Extremely Good (Rank 5) on physically defensive side, and Very Good (Rank 4) on the specially defensive side. It's overall rating is 394, or Very Good.
The reason I choose Cresselia I figure our Pokemon will be utilized as a viable mixed wall in OU, and I figured I would try to use the most viable mixed wall, Cresselia (I don't count Bronzong simply because most people generally focus one side and the other side is merely bulky, not "wall" capable).
If we look at this from a stats point of view, Cresselia is clearly superior in every facet except for Special Attack.
When it comes to abilities, I recognize that Levitate serves a different purpose than both Battle Armor and Rock Head, but I really have to give Levitate the upper hand here simply because comon, Levitate does so much more for Cresselia (Spikes / Toxic Spikes Immunity, Ground immunity) than Battle Armor (a "hax" preventer, which on average is useless) and Rock Head (physical sets won't be common and this thing has 444 HP potentially to not really give two hoots about recoil). So, in terms of Ability, I once again have to give Cresselia the upper hand.
Where this Pokemon truly shines over Cresselia is in its typing. Fire / Grass and Psychic shouldn't really be compared defensively since they are both pretty average defensive typings (though with Levitate, the Psychic typing does get a resist to Fighting and an immunity to Ground, two of the most common offensive attacks, so I would give Cresselia a slight advantage in terms of defensive typing), but offensively, Fire / Grass STAB is much superior to Psychic STAB. Our Pokemon's type > Cresselia's type.
So far we have that Cresselia is superior statistically in every way besides Special Attack, that Cresselia has a more useful Ability, Cresselia's defensive typing is slightly superior, and our Pokemon's offensive typing is definitely superior.
So now we'll transition into move pool. Various individuals, such as Lil Ant and Latinoheat, have lamented that on the current path our Pokemon is taking, it will be broken. Well, from what I can tell with the stats, Ability and typing, Cresselia is a more useful Pokemon than ours. And Cresselia is in no way broken, barely maintaining its top 20 (#19) spot on Shoddy's official server.
So this would mean, obviously, that those lamenting its "broken" potential must be referring to its potential move pool.
In the only stat where Cresselia was inferior to our Pokemon, Special Attack, Cresselia is able to boost it with Charge Beam / Calm Mind. If we do not give this thing either (as most of the experienced battlers seem to be agreeing on), then Cresselia would technically get the nod over our Pokemon in terms of special attacking Power.
So now we REALLY have to focus on the rest of this Pokemon's move pool, to see if it somehow is more broken than Cresselia. I don't see its STAB offensive moves making it excessively broken...I mean Grass / Fire, while SE and neutral on a lot, is still resisted by Dragons, Fires and plenty of Flying types.
So now where would this "broken" factor come in? It would have to come in either with its non STAB offensive attacks or its support moves.
I've already stated that Togekiss / Tentacruel / Aerodactyl / Crobat / Zapdos / Tyranitar / Fires in general are decent counters / checks against this thing.
What could potentially make this broken is for it to get physical Ground or Rock moves, like Earthquake or Stone Edge, that would make Togekiss, Tentacruel, Aerodactyl, Crobat, Zapdos, and Fires in general no longer those checks / counters...Wow, two physical moves, and this pretty much beats 95% of its counters. I tend to agree with Doug in that theorymon is essentially useless in determining the broken factor of a Pokemon, yet in extreme cases I believe we can use the benefit of the doubt.
Please guys, I beg you, no powerful Ice / Fighting / Rock / Ground moves for this thing. I'm not saying it will be broken in general terms, I am saying that its potential checks / counters will be crying if it gets those moves, especially Ground / Rock / Fighting (Tyranitar).
Sooooo, now we get to support. Think about how flimsy theorymon is for direct attacking moves...can we honestly claim we can make anything other than a very weak guess regarding a Pokemon's broken factor with support moves? The only moves that might be able to be theorized effectively with are the stat buffing moves. I am ardently against Nasty Plot / Tail Glow / Calm Mind / Bulk Up / Curse / Charge Beam, pretty against Swords Dance but willing to debate, and totally up for Howl. I was against Growth, but then I realized that without a subsequent defensive boost, it isn't too bad. I think we've stated enough in previous topics as to why Nasty Plot / Tail Glow / Calm Mind are definite no nos, but if anyone wants a little reiteration I'll be willing to go into detail then.
But besides the stat buffing moves, how can we honestly claim that we can make an even halfway decent guess regarding the rest of the moves? Spore aside, support moves like Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Will-o-wisp, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Reflect and Light Screen are all viable, and I think should remain on this.
Remember, we have the ability to remove something if it is broken during the testing phase. Obviously this doesn't mean that we will purposefully create a broken Pokemon, but when it comes to support moves, I really have a hard time substantiating the claim that an individual can effectively guess that it will be broken.
And this all circles back to my initial comparison with Cresselia. Please guys, no more claims that this is excessively broken.
With Calm Mind and Levitate, Cresselia has clearly superior stats and clearly superior defensive typing.
Our guy has a clearly superior offensive typing that is only backed by a 95 SpA that won't be getting boosted (hopefully) by Calm Mind or Charge Beam, and I guess it has the cool Leech Seed + Fire STAB combination. Do those advantages make this so much more broken than Cresselia? I don't think so.
Since this obviously isn't more broken than Cresselia, and since it is VERY difficult to effectively predict how broken support moves might be, I say we be pretty liberal with dishing out support moves. I was initially against Sleep Powder, but I can't earnestly say I have a strong argument against it, and therefore I am more than willing to try it out.
SUMMARY:
1.) This Pokemon is inferior to Cresselia in stats and Ability, and to merely tie Cresselia in terms of usefulness, has to take advantage of its offensive STAB and support options.
2.) This hopefully is not getting a way to boost its Special attack, and is hopefully not going to get Ground / Rock moves so that it still has counters.
3.) Therefore, let us be very liberal with support options. By very liberal, I mean VERY liberal, with only eliminating certain stat buffing moves and Spore.
Why? Cause its checks / counters, namely Togekiss, Tentacruel, Aerodactyl, Crobat, Zapdos, general Fires and the like would like to remain checks / counters.
When viewing this Pokemon, I draw the Cresselia analogy.
Cresselia as a BST of 120 HP / 70 Atk / 120 Def / 75 SpA / 130 SpD / 85 Spe
Putting Cresselia into X-Act's Stat analyzer, we get that it is Average offensively on both sides, and Amazing (Rank 7) defensively on both sides. It's overall rating is 837, or Fantastic.
Our Pokemon has a BST of 120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe
Putting our Pokemon into that same analyzer, we get that it is below Average on the physically offensive side, Average on specially offensive side, Extremely Good (Rank 5) on physically defensive side, and Very Good (Rank 4) on the specially defensive side. It's overall rating is 394, or Very Good.
The reason I choose Cresselia I figure our Pokemon will be utilized as a viable mixed wall in OU, and I figured I would try to use the most viable mixed wall, Cresselia (I don't count Bronzong simply because most people generally focus one side and the other side is merely bulky, not "wall" capable).
If we look at this from a stats point of view, Cresselia is clearly superior in every facet except for Special Attack.
When it comes to abilities, I recognize that Levitate serves a different purpose than both Battle Armor and Rock Head, but I really have to give Levitate the upper hand here simply because comon, Levitate does so much more for Cresselia (Spikes / Toxic Spikes Immunity, Ground immunity) than Battle Armor (a "hax" preventer, which on average is useless) and Rock Head (physical sets won't be common and this thing has 444 HP potentially to not really give two hoots about recoil). So, in terms of Ability, I once again have to give Cresselia the upper hand.
Where this Pokemon truly shines over Cresselia is in its typing. Fire / Grass and Psychic shouldn't really be compared defensively since they are both pretty average defensive typings (though with Levitate, the Psychic typing does get a resist to Fighting and an immunity to Ground, two of the most common offensive attacks, so I would give Cresselia a slight advantage in terms of defensive typing), but offensively, Fire / Grass STAB is much superior to Psychic STAB. Our Pokemon's type > Cresselia's type.
So far we have that Cresselia is superior statistically in every way besides Special Attack, that Cresselia has a more useful Ability, Cresselia's defensive typing is slightly superior, and our Pokemon's offensive typing is definitely superior.
So now we'll transition into move pool. Various individuals, such as Lil Ant and Latinoheat, have lamented that on the current path our Pokemon is taking, it will be broken. Well, from what I can tell with the stats, Ability and typing, Cresselia is a more useful Pokemon than ours. And Cresselia is in no way broken, barely maintaining its top 20 (#19) spot on Shoddy's official server.
So this would mean, obviously, that those lamenting its "broken" potential must be referring to its potential move pool.
In the only stat where Cresselia was inferior to our Pokemon, Special Attack, Cresselia is able to boost it with Charge Beam / Calm Mind. If we do not give this thing either (as most of the experienced battlers seem to be agreeing on), then Cresselia would technically get the nod over our Pokemon in terms of special attacking Power.
So now we REALLY have to focus on the rest of this Pokemon's move pool, to see if it somehow is more broken than Cresselia. I don't see its STAB offensive moves making it excessively broken...I mean Grass / Fire, while SE and neutral on a lot, is still resisted by Dragons, Fires and plenty of Flying types.
So now where would this "broken" factor come in? It would have to come in either with its non STAB offensive attacks or its support moves.
I've already stated that Togekiss / Tentacruel / Aerodactyl / Crobat / Zapdos / Tyranitar / Fires in general are decent counters / checks against this thing.
What could potentially make this broken is for it to get physical Ground or Rock moves, like Earthquake or Stone Edge, that would make Togekiss, Tentacruel, Aerodactyl, Crobat, Zapdos, and Fires in general no longer those checks / counters...Wow, two physical moves, and this pretty much beats 95% of its counters. I tend to agree with Doug in that theorymon is essentially useless in determining the broken factor of a Pokemon, yet in extreme cases I believe we can use the benefit of the doubt.
Please guys, I beg you, no powerful Ice / Fighting / Rock / Ground moves for this thing. I'm not saying it will be broken in general terms, I am saying that its potential checks / counters will be crying if it gets those moves, especially Ground / Rock / Fighting (Tyranitar).
Sooooo, now we get to support. Think about how flimsy theorymon is for direct attacking moves...can we honestly claim we can make anything other than a very weak guess regarding a Pokemon's broken factor with support moves? The only moves that might be able to be theorized effectively with are the stat buffing moves. I am ardently against Nasty Plot / Tail Glow / Calm Mind / Bulk Up / Curse / Charge Beam, pretty against Swords Dance but willing to debate, and totally up for Howl. I was against Growth, but then I realized that without a subsequent defensive boost, it isn't too bad. I think we've stated enough in previous topics as to why Nasty Plot / Tail Glow / Calm Mind are definite no nos, but if anyone wants a little reiteration I'll be willing to go into detail then.
But besides the stat buffing moves, how can we honestly claim that we can make an even halfway decent guess regarding the rest of the moves? Spore aside, support moves like Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Will-o-wisp, Leech Seed, Synthesis, Reflect and Light Screen are all viable, and I think should remain on this.
Remember, we have the ability to remove something if it is broken during the testing phase. Obviously this doesn't mean that we will purposefully create a broken Pokemon, but when it comes to support moves, I really have a hard time substantiating the claim that an individual can effectively guess that it will be broken.
And this all circles back to my initial comparison with Cresselia. Please guys, no more claims that this is excessively broken.
With Calm Mind and Levitate, Cresselia has clearly superior stats and clearly superior defensive typing.
Our guy has a clearly superior offensive typing that is only backed by a 95 SpA that won't be getting boosted (hopefully) by Calm Mind or Charge Beam, and I guess it has the cool Leech Seed + Fire STAB combination. Do those advantages make this so much more broken than Cresselia? I don't think so.
Since this obviously isn't more broken than Cresselia, and since it is VERY difficult to effectively predict how broken support moves might be, I say we be pretty liberal with dishing out support moves. I was initially against Sleep Powder, but I can't earnestly say I have a strong argument against it, and therefore I am more than willing to try it out.
SUMMARY:
1.) This Pokemon is inferior to Cresselia in stats and Ability, and to merely tie Cresselia in terms of usefulness, has to take advantage of its offensive STAB and support options.
2.) This hopefully is not getting a way to boost its Special attack, and is hopefully not going to get Ground / Rock moves so that it still has counters.
3.) Therefore, let us be very liberal with support options. By very liberal, I mean VERY liberal, with only eliminating certain stat buffing moves and Spore.
It definitely isn't overshadowed by Flare Blitz and Overheat! Overheat overshadowing Lava Plume is kind of silly, actually. As for Flare Blitz (flaming take down or barrage of physical attacks), at least Lava Plume (a burst of fire, presumably from the cannons) makes sense flavor-wise.
Since the idea of testing moves seems prevalent, we might as well test Lava Plume (since even Will-o-wisp seems iffy) to see what it does once and for all.
I think Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Charge Beam, Calm Mind and Weather Ball are all definite "no's," however. Howl should be tested, if anything.
I'm going to reiterate for everyone once again what I have thought to be the ideal (standard) set since the beginning of the project:
Grass Knot
Leech Seed
Lava Plume
Rest
And wasn't Tyranitar not one of the more important checks? On the subject of Tyranitar, he doesn't outspeed Gengar either and doesn't want to eat a Life Orb Focus Blast. Seems you don't need to outspeed that guy to be an effective Dragon Dancer.
Woodman doesn't die to any attack of Tentacruel either and I'll bet he won't like eating 2 boosted attacks.
Woodman doesn't die to any attack of Tentacruel either and I'll bet he won't like eating 2 boosted attacks.
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