I understand you guys help make a balanced Pokemon become a bulky Pokemon, but damn. Some of us want our balance Fire/Grass Pokemon back. Which is why i think i should remove Weather Ball, but i still don't see the serious bickering around Dragon Dance. Tyranitar has it, and it isn't nearly used much as the Choice Banded set. Tyranitar is also very much bulky as this thing. But, Weather Ball should be removed. Paired with Hippowdon, it will be difficult to stop. I failed to accout that Togekiss had to OUTSPEED him to Roost, which requires a lot of speed investment. So my bad on the bickering with Weather Ball.
-
Follow our Instagram!
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
- Start date
- Status
For those of you not familiar with how the movepool voting works, here's a brief synopsis:
1) We throw out ideas and movepools here in this thread. People voice support and criticism.
2) The TL goes through all the discussion and figures out the slate of moves that he considers to be "consensus". (Right now, it appears GT is leaning towards a lot of the stuff from latinoheat's pool) The consensus items are not voted on per se.
3) The TL picks several controversial items and puts those up for a vote. Like all polls, it's up to the TL as to the number of polls and what voting style is used.
If it looks like the TL has a lot of power here -- he does. More than any other part, this is where the TL can flex the most muscle over the pokemon. It's also where the TL can act as a "last line of defense" against an overpowered or underpowered pokemon.
Good luck, GT. We're all gonna blame you, if this thing doesn't work out OK....
jk.
1) We throw out ideas and movepools here in this thread. People voice support and criticism.
2) The TL goes through all the discussion and figures out the slate of moves that he considers to be "consensus". (Right now, it appears GT is leaning towards a lot of the stuff from latinoheat's pool) The consensus items are not voted on per se.
3) The TL picks several controversial items and puts those up for a vote. Like all polls, it's up to the TL as to the number of polls and what voting style is used.
If it looks like the TL has a lot of power here -- he does. More than any other part, this is where the TL can flex the most muscle over the pokemon. It's also where the TL can act as a "last line of defense" against an overpowered or underpowered pokemon.
Good luck, GT. We're all gonna blame you, if this thing doesn't work out OK....
jk.
Plus they're just arbitrary numbers anyway. It's not going to end up making a difference at all.
Um, not to burst your bubble but the checks Leonin had were for Special Attacks, not physical. Here is the Dragon Dance check list.
-Heatran
-Dragonite
-Garchomp
-Salamence
-Gyarados
-Armaldo
-Probopass
-Weezing( With Haze )
-Gliscor ( STAB Aerial Ace hurts )
-Miltank ( with Curse )
-Kingdra
-Hitmontop
-Uxie
-Cresselia
-Dusknoir ( Rock Slide )
-Aggron
-Bastiodon
Good thoughts on Weather Ball, but I still think Dragon Dance is a problem. Remembering that the checks and counters are only viable when Woodman is out-sped, giving it a +1 Atk/+1 Spe makes it arguably better than Tyranitar. Think about it:
It has access to Fire/Grass (which is in itself very powerful) STAB 120 BP moves with 100% accuracy and no recoil. Sneak on a Hidden Power and all of its counters sort of go down the drain. Not to mention that: 1) this thing is capable of outspeeding its counters (without a +1 boost) with enough speed investment 2) after a boost it will hit most things for +50%, 3) is not restricted like Tyranitar by easily counter-able STAB attacks and can hit 80% of the metagame with three attacks, 4) a Dragon Dance set would have no counters, only "checks, "and 5) this Pokemon does not die to any unboosted move, STAB/supereffective or not.
With all that in mind, I would have to say Dragon Dance is overpowered and may severely centralize the metagame.
Posting to say I think Swords Dance and Dragon Dance are both very viable options that should be considered, Dragon Dance especially. On the physical offensive side, this thing really has pretty terrible stats, and while this is compensated very well by his extreme bulk, I really doubt he will be too much to handle especially considering his Stealth Rock weakness and susceptibility to Sandstorm. Also, a Dragon Dance set will pretty much pretty much ALWAYS be walled by Heatran. I don't think Rock Slide would really be all that much of a stretch, because come on guys, it's 75 BP on a Pokemon with base 70 Attack. So what if it hit counters super effective, it's still probably doing next to nothing unless on a designated physical attacking set.
So yeah, the reason I like the idea of Dragon Dance and Swords Dance is that while they are certainly not overpowering (well, I would say Dragon Dance at least), they atleast provide this pokemon to have atleast a little bit of unpredictability about him. Basically, I think most everybody would agree that there are MUCH better Dragon Dancers, so that really isn't an issue, more so that it "counters" his supposed counters, but this is similar to many other pokemon. They can counter their counters, but in doing so they use a less useful set and are of less overall benefit to the team.
Swords Dance I concede may be a bit much simply because of the high base power and reliability of his physical STABs, but like I mentioned earlier, his lack of physical coverage could make it a possibility. I like Fishin's idea of possibly making Flare Blitz + Dragon Dance + Wood Hammer illegal through Charizard or something, and I think that's something to consider.
Basically, like a few people have said, I think it is much easier to add a move now that could possibly be removed later than doing the opposite later. In the end I think his physical options will have little consequence considering how much better he is at being a defensive pokemon, but it just seems like now we should be giving him anything that doesn't seem completely ridiculous, with the knowledge that anything that is really a problem can be dealed with later. Obviously we want to put a good deal of thought into his movepool, but really I think testing is the only way we can see if something like Dragon Dance or Swords Dance is really broken.
Also, to people freaking out about giving him these low bp Special attacks which hit his counters super effectively (I'm looking at Charge Beam mostly), remember that this will almost definitely be recieving Fire Blast, which will most likely be doing ALOT more in neutral hits than something like Charge Beam will be doing with Super Effective hits.
Edit: and @Karrot above me: The problem with that is that his attacks aren't that hard to resist because of his lack of attacking options. Fire / Grass is good coverage, but not great. He will never beat Heatran without HP Ground, and with HP Ground he won't likely ever beat Salamence, and will have major trouble against Gyarados and Garchomp, especially since he will most likely have taken 25% damage coming in, making him easier to kill. I admit that he would be pretty good, especially since most Phazers are not able to switch in, but I think he is kept in balance by his bad type coverage, and if even then it is too much, it is very easy to make Wood Hammer + Dragon Dance illegal, opening the door to many, many more counters if he was limited to the weaker Seed Bomb if even that at all. In the end I think it just creates one more viable option for him to mess around with, which as far as I see it is a good thing.
So yeah, the reason I like the idea of Dragon Dance and Swords Dance is that while they are certainly not overpowering (well, I would say Dragon Dance at least), they atleast provide this pokemon to have atleast a little bit of unpredictability about him. Basically, I think most everybody would agree that there are MUCH better Dragon Dancers, so that really isn't an issue, more so that it "counters" his supposed counters, but this is similar to many other pokemon. They can counter their counters, but in doing so they use a less useful set and are of less overall benefit to the team.
Swords Dance I concede may be a bit much simply because of the high base power and reliability of his physical STABs, but like I mentioned earlier, his lack of physical coverage could make it a possibility. I like Fishin's idea of possibly making Flare Blitz + Dragon Dance + Wood Hammer illegal through Charizard or something, and I think that's something to consider.
Basically, like a few people have said, I think it is much easier to add a move now that could possibly be removed later than doing the opposite later. In the end I think his physical options will have little consequence considering how much better he is at being a defensive pokemon, but it just seems like now we should be giving him anything that doesn't seem completely ridiculous, with the knowledge that anything that is really a problem can be dealed with later. Obviously we want to put a good deal of thought into his movepool, but really I think testing is the only way we can see if something like Dragon Dance or Swords Dance is really broken.
Also, to people freaking out about giving him these low bp Special attacks which hit his counters super effectively (I'm looking at Charge Beam mostly), remember that this will almost definitely be recieving Fire Blast, which will most likely be doing ALOT more in neutral hits than something like Charge Beam will be doing with Super Effective hits.
Edit: and @Karrot above me: The problem with that is that his attacks aren't that hard to resist because of his lack of attacking options. Fire / Grass is good coverage, but not great. He will never beat Heatran without HP Ground, and with HP Ground he won't likely ever beat Salamence, and will have major trouble against Gyarados and Garchomp, especially since he will most likely have taken 25% damage coming in, making him easier to kill. I admit that he would be pretty good, especially since most Phazers are not able to switch in, but I think he is kept in balance by his bad type coverage, and if even then it is too much, it is very easy to make Wood Hammer + Dragon Dance illegal, opening the door to many, many more counters if he was limited to the weaker Seed Bomb if even that at all. In the end I think it just creates one more viable option for him to mess around with, which as far as I see it is a good thing.
DD is not at all overpowered if you just make sure that only one of the 120BP moves is available with it....
Using my movelist, if DD were an egg move, this would be accomplished. It would have to breed with Torterra or Abomasnow to get Wood Hammer, neither of which have DD.
Speaking of egg moves and whom he's getting it from, what egg group is this creature going to fit. I'm leaning towards Monster/Dragon myself.
I agree 1000000%, aside from Swords Dance. Boosting + 2 attack with 120 STAB's is very hard to counter or stat up with at that. Dragon Dance takes a while to get going. Sure Swords Dance sets can be revenge killed, but after a bit of havoc has been brought about. With Dragon Dance though, certain switch ins can Haze him, or even Roar him out, without taking a good amount of damage before so. Swords Dance really ruins that.
How about DD + Wood Hammer or Dragon Rush is illegal, which them changes the moveset to
Dragon Dance
Flare Blitz
Seed Bomb
Double Edge / Grasswhistle / HP [Ice / Ground]
Decided to post this as its own post since I was gone for so long.
Here's my outtake on the matter of a moveset.
--- Flare Blitz (Tutor)
--- Wood Hammer (Tutor)
--- Blast Burn (Tutor)
--- Howl
--- Growl
--- Tackle
5 - Bide
9 - Ember
13 - Growth
18 - Bullet Seed
22 - Rock Throw
27 - Leech Seed
31 - Mean Look
35 - Energy Ball
41 - Flamethrower
49 - Seed Bomb
52 - Double Edge
55 - Will-O'-Wisp (Don't really want it, but it's not something you can really remove.)
57 - Solarbeam
62 - Hyper Beam
TM05 Roar
TM09 Bullet Seed
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solarbeam
TM23 Iron Tail
TM26 Earthquake (Gotta admit this guy looks heavy enough to cause some tremors. I know you guys think it'll ruin his counters, but to use it he'll already need to be running a Physical set. If you guys honestly think he can run an effective mix set off of 70 base attack, I'll reconsider, but I can't see it as ultra-game breaking here.)
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM57 Charge Beam
TM58 Endure
TM61 Will-O'-Wisp
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM70 Flash
TM76 Stealth Rock
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM83 Natural Gift
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
HM01 Cut
HM04 Strength
TM05 Defog
TM06 Rock Smash
TM08 Rock Climb
I'll do Egg Moves in a few, but I just wanted to get this posted.
Here's my outtake on the matter of a moveset.
--- Flare Blitz (Tutor)
--- Wood Hammer (Tutor)
--- Blast Burn (Tutor)
--- Howl
--- Growl
--- Tackle
5 - Bide
9 - Ember
13 - Growth
18 - Bullet Seed
22 - Rock Throw
27 - Leech Seed
31 - Mean Look
35 - Energy Ball
41 - Flamethrower
49 - Seed Bomb
52 - Double Edge
55 - Will-O'-Wisp (Don't really want it, but it's not something you can really remove.)
57 - Solarbeam
62 - Hyper Beam
TM05 Roar
TM09 Bullet Seed
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solarbeam
TM23 Iron Tail
TM26 Earthquake (Gotta admit this guy looks heavy enough to cause some tremors. I know you guys think it'll ruin his counters, but to use it he'll already need to be running a Physical set. If you guys honestly think he can run an effective mix set off of 70 base attack, I'll reconsider, but I can't see it as ultra-game breaking here.)
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM50 Overheat
TM53 Energy Ball
TM57 Charge Beam
TM58 Endure
TM61 Will-O'-Wisp
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM70 Flash
TM76 Stealth Rock
TM80 Rock Slide
TM82 Sleep Talk
TM83 Natural Gift
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
HM01 Cut
HM04 Strength
TM05 Defog
TM06 Rock Smash
TM08 Rock Climb
I'll do Egg Moves in a few, but I just wanted to get this posted.
I also think Rock Polish might be a neat move for him to have, although I can't really see it being all that useful considering he doesn't really have the offensive stats to sweep with only speed boosted, it could have some interesting applications. I also think it fits pretty well flavorwise.
Edit: also after thinking about it a little more, I can see Swords Dance actually ending up a little problematic, but I still think it atleast merits some serious consideration, because like I said in my other post, it is much easier to add a move now and remove it later if necessary than it is to do the reverse
Edit: also after thinking about it a little more, I can see Swords Dance actually ending up a little problematic, but I still think it atleast merits some serious consideration, because like I said in my other post, it is much easier to add a move now and remove it later if necessary than it is to do the reverse
You got to admit, you do have a point there. Personally it's kinda hard not seeing this creature cause some quakes with his weight. Can't really justify from a flavor/actual possibility standpoint that something like him can't use it.
Well my advice to the people who are still making movepools now, don't hesitate to give the thing some options offensively. Everyone just shoots the gun at the offensive moves, but they sure as hell don't mind making it more bulky. I just realize how the hell will this thing be able to be stopped, if you give it Will-O-Wisp? You just cut the opposing Pokemon attack stat behind that Cresselia type defense. You guys give it Leech Seed, healing moves, hell, you even gave it Reflect and Light Screen. It seems to me, you give must love making this thing hard to kill. I'm trying to give it offensive options so that the trainer using the Pokemon is focused on offensive when using it. Sure the metagame is focused on offense, but this Pokemon should be offensive. Just look at its typing! I'll leave my rant at that exclamation.
-- Flash Cannon (Tutor)
-- Wood Hammer (Tutor)
-- Flare Blitz (Tutor)
-- Rage
-- Growl
04 Bullet Seed
09 Howl
13 Ember
18 Focus Energy
25 Mega Drain
26 Earthquake
29 Take Down
33 Leech Seed
36 Fire Spin
41 Skull Bash
47 Energy Ball
52 Flamethrower
57 Seed Bomb
61 Double-Edge
67 SolarBeam
72 Hyper Beam
Plant/Monster
EGG: Ingrain (Cradily, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Grasswhistle (Sunflora, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Ancientpower (Tangela, Cradily, ect.)
EGG: Crunch (Tyranitar)
EGG: Psybeam (Venomoth/Butterfree --> Parasect)
EGG: Heat Wave (Charizard)
EGG: Sythesis (Bellosom, Sunflora, ect)
EGG: Leaf Storm (Bellosom, Torterra, ect)
TMS/HMS:
TM 05-Roar
TM 06-Toxic
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam
TM 17-Protect
TM 19-Giga Drain
TM 21-Frustration
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM 27-Return
TM 30-Shadow Ball
TM 31-Brick Break
TM 32-Double Team
TM 34-Shock Wave
TM 35-Flamethrower
TM 36-Sludge Bomb
TM 38-Fire Blast
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 42-Façade
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat
TM 52-Focus Blast
TM 53-Energy Ball
TM 57-Charge Beam
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM 82-Sleep Talk
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 86-Grass Knot
TM 87-Swagger
TM 90-Substitute
TM 91-Flash Cannon
HM 04 Strength
HM 06 Rock Smash
HM 08 Rock Climb
Okay, I fixed it up some from my last one. What do you think?
-- Wood Hammer (Tutor)
-- Flare Blitz (Tutor)
-- Rage
-- Growl
04 Bullet Seed
09 Howl
13 Ember
18 Focus Energy
25 Mega Drain
26 Earthquake
29 Take Down
33 Leech Seed
36 Fire Spin
41 Skull Bash
47 Energy Ball
52 Flamethrower
57 Seed Bomb
61 Double-Edge
67 SolarBeam
72 Hyper Beam
Plant/Monster
EGG: Ingrain (Cradily, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Grasswhistle (Sunflora, Roselia, ect)
EGG: Ancientpower (Tangela, Cradily, ect.)
EGG: Crunch (Tyranitar)
EGG: Psybeam (Venomoth/Butterfree --> Parasect)
EGG: Heat Wave (Charizard)
EGG: Sythesis (Bellosom, Sunflora, ect)
EGG: Leaf Storm (Bellosom, Torterra, ect)
TMS/HMS:
TM 05-Roar
TM 06-Toxic
TM 09-Bullet Seed
TM 10-Hidden Power
TM 11-Sunny Day
TM 15-Hyper Beam
TM 17-Protect
TM 19-Giga Drain
TM 21-Frustration
TM 23-Iron Tail
TM 27-Return
TM 30-Shadow Ball
TM 31-Brick Break
TM 32-Double Team
TM 34-Shock Wave
TM 35-Flamethrower
TM 36-Sludge Bomb
TM 38-Fire Blast
TM 39-Rock Tomb
TM 42-Façade
TM 43-Secret Power
TM 44-Rest
TM 45-Attract
TM 50-Overheat
TM 52-Focus Blast
TM 53-Energy Ball
TM 57-Charge Beam
TM 58-Endure
TM 61-Will-o-Wisp
TM 68-Giga Impact
TM 82-Sleep Talk
TM 83-Natural Gift
TM 86-Grass Knot
TM 87-Swagger
TM 90-Substitute
TM 91-Flash Cannon
HM 04 Strength
HM 06 Rock Smash
HM 08 Rock Climb
Okay, I fixed it up some from my last one. What do you think?
My moveset I have given some deep thought to the offensive side as well, but you seem to be ignoring one thing Ant, the stats. Sure, the typing screams offense to some people, but you have to remember that its attacking stats are nothing special and it has some defenses to be reckoned with.
It is meant to be a more balanced pokemon, but you have to keep in mind that the stats were based off of what people wanted this pokemon to be like. Feel free to state your opinions about the offensive moves, but don't assume that we aren't working at considering offensive options as well.
It is meant to be a more balanced pokemon, but you have to keep in mind that the stats were based off of what people wanted this pokemon to be like. Feel free to state your opinions about the offensive moves, but don't assume that we aren't working at considering offensive options as well.
- Status