CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 10 (Movepool Discussion)

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Ok, just I was messing around a little and came up with my own movepool. Here's what I came up, if anybody is interested

Level Up Moves
-Leer
-Absorb
7- Stun Spore
11-Bite
17-Flame Wheel
20-Leech Seed
25-Mega Drain
31-Taunt
36-Seed Bomb
41-Flamethrower
44-Protect
49-Synthesis
56-Flare Blitz
61-Solar Beam

Egg Moves
Lava Plume
Wood Hammer
Crunch
Grass Whistle
Worry Seed
Dragon Dance
Blaze Kick
Double Edge
Dragon Rush

Wood Hammer + Dragon Dance is Illegal

TMs/HMs
5. Roar
6. Toxic
9. Bullet Seed
10. Hidden Power
11. Sunny Day
12. Taunt
15. Hyper Beam
16. Light Screen
17. Protect
18. Rain Dance (do fire pokemon learn rain dance?)
19. Giga Drain
21. Frustration
22. Solar Beam
23. Iron Tail
27. Return
31. Brick Break (debatable, I don't really care either way)
32. Double Team
33. Reflect
35. Flamethrower
36. Sludge Bomb
37. Sandstorm
38. Fire Blast
39. Rock Tomb (I'm 97% this is fine lol)
41. Torment
42. Facade
43. Secret Power
44. Rest
45. Attract
46. Theif
49. Snatch
50 Overheat

52. Focus Blast ( **maybe** probably not)
53. Energy Ball
56. Fling
57. Charge Beam
58. Endure
59. Dragon Pulse
60. Drain Punch (debatable I suppose)
61. Will-o-wisp (not taking a stance... I haven't decided yet)
62. Silver Wind
63. Embargo
66. Payback
68. Giga Impact
69. Rock Polish
70. Flash (not exactly sure it this makes sense or not)
77. Psych Up
80. Rock Slide
82. Sleep Talk
83. Natural Gift
86. Grass Knot
87. Swagger
90. Subsitute
91. Flash Cannon
HM04-Strength
HM06-Rock Smash
HM08-Rock Climb

Okay, so that's just what I came up with when I was bored. Obviously there are some debatables on the list, but it's more of an outline than an actual full movepool. With this movepool, he is left with

Viable special movepool: Energy Ball, Grass Knot, Solar Beam, Lava Plume, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Hidden Power, Charge Beam, Dragon Pulse (I suppose possibly debatable/controversial), Flash Cannon. Sludge Bomb

Viable physical movepool: Seed Bomb, Blaze Kick, Flare Blitz, Wood Hammer, Crunch, Dragon Rush, Drain Punch, Double Edge (I could see some people having problems with this), Rock Slide (possibly), Brick Break (possibly)

Viable support/non-attacking movepool: generic stuff (Toxic, Rest, etc), Synthesis, Leech Seed, Stun Spore, Grass Whistle, Taunt, Torment, Worry Seed, Dragon Dance, Reflect, Snatch

OK so yeah, that's what I came up with :p
 
Kira said:
You are not going to be able to cripple it if it comes out as a late-game sweeper and all your counters are dead which is what a good player would do... You can't just assume "I can cripple it before it gets a DD"


He is not bashing Rock Head, because his ability of choice did not get chosen... I think Deck Knight is above bashing a move because he "lost" in a pokemon poll.
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Do you know what late game sweepers do?

They sweep late game man, i thought it was kind of obvious that that is what they do but meh. Anyway, if you say he isn't bashing it because he is envious than so be it, we can't argue on what his reasons for bashing are, because we aren't him.....
 
What's with everyone giving it Dragon Moves?

Last I remember,

Lizard or any other Generic Reptile =/= Dragon

If that was the case, we'd be seeing Dragon Rage/Breath/Pulse Arbok, Kelcleon, and Torkoal.
 
Nokocchi said:
What's with everyone giving it Dragon Moves?

Last I remember,

Lizard or any other Generic Reptile =/= Dragon

If that was the case, we'd be seeing Dragon Rage/Breath/Pulse Arbok, Kelcleon, and Torkoal.
Click to expand...

Sceptile has Dragon Pulse because?
Charizard has Outrage because?

I am against no Dragon moves though.
 
Lil Ant said:
Do you know what late game sweepers do?

They sweep late game man, i thought it was kind of obvious that that is what they do but meh.
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Are you saying I don't know what a late game sweeper is?

I basically said what you just said, it's a sweeper who comes out late game... late game is the time when most counters will be dead...

Late game = late in the game.... which is when at least a few pokemon are dead...

So I basically described a late-game sweeper.... so you clearly don't understand the definition of late game.


edit: you know what? Fuck this... it would be easier to just put you on my ignore list.
 
Nokocchi said:
What's with everyone giving it Dragon Moves?

Last I remember,

Lizard or any other Generic Reptile =/= Dragon

If that was the case, we'd be seeing Dragon Rage/Breath/Pulse Arbok, Kelcleon, and Torkoal.
Click to expand...

Mamodo Dragon = Lizard
Dragon = Lizard
Dragon = a reptile or lizard that can fly
 
Nokocchi said:
What's with everyone giving it Dragon Moves?

Last I remember,

Lizard or any other Generic Reptile =/= Dragon

If that was the case, we'd be seeing Dragon Rage/Breath/Pulse Arbok, Kelcleon, and Torkoal.
Click to expand...

If we gave it Dragon moves, what would that mean? A huge ton more neutrals and one more potential super-effective, along with the potent Dragon-Fire move combo.
Flavorwise this doesn't seem contrary to the concept of Woodman (to me at least). Things like Arbok and Kecleon are rather small and obviously un-dragonlike; however, Woodman seems a better fit the in the mold of Sceptile.
Basically Dragon allows this to hit Fire-types neutral. If it enables it to kill dragons; well, dragons like Garchomp are powerful anyway, and they won't suffer much from giving this a dragon attack. Is its special attack high enough to potentially eliminate counters with this coverage?
 
Kira said:
Are you saying I don't know what a late game sweeper is?

I basically said what you just said, it's a sweeper who comes out late game... late game is the time when most counters will be dead...

Late game = late in the game.... which is when at least a few pokemon are dead...

So I basically described a late-game sweeper.... so you clearly don't understand the definition of late game.


edit: you know what? Fuck this... it would be easier to just put you on my ignore list.
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So if he is a doing his job as a late game sweeper, what are debating against? A Pokemon doing it's role for the team? That is very ........ meh, i'd rather keep my composure. I think i will rather have a place on your ignore list, i may throw a party later so don't make any plans. :naughty:

Wait one more thing, how wouldn't i know what a late game sweeper was if i just described it? lol, wow!
 
There's really no problem with Dragon moves flavor-wise. Our Pokemon isn't a Dragon-type, but that doesn't stop plenty of other Pokemon from getting Dragon-type moves (Tyranitar, Charizard, Gyarados, Feraligatr, and Lapras all get Dragon Dance, I'd say Woodman is basically on their level of draconic-ness).
 
I could use the flames in this CAP to light my barbecue. In all seriousness though, let's stop with the flaming and such. It can't be that hard to be the bigger man about it and just ignore some comments.

On topic, I think that some more support options on this Pokemon would be a good thing. Although so far its role seems to be set, I would like to see more variations on movesets instead of the same thing over and over again. I can see a surprise physical moveset working, a special moveset, a wall moveset, but it would be great if it also had some other choices. Grasswhistle and maybe Stun Spore.

Jusy my two cents.

PS: I support Dragon moves on Woodman for flavour, although I'm not sure whether or not it will make it that broken. Personally, I designed Woodman with the concept of a dragon encased in armour made of wood, and used Charizard as a base for what I wanted it to look like, therefore the similarities.
 
LEVEL UP
-Fire Fang
-Flare Blitz
-Pound
-Leer
-Rage
lvl 4 Howl
lvl 6 Bullet Seed
lvl 11 Ember
lvl 16 Energy Ball
lvl 17 Leech Seed
lvl 23 Flame Wheel
lvl 29 Flamethrower
lvl 35 Stun Spore
lvl 43 Wood Hammer
lvl 51 Protect
lvl 59 Fire Blast
lvl 67 Solarbeam

TM/HM
TM05 Roar
TM09 Bullet Seed
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solarbeam
TM23 Iron Tail
TM27 Return
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM38 Fire Blast
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM43 Secret Power
TM44 Rest
TM50 Overheat
TM52 Focus Blast
TM53 Energy Ball
TM59 Dragon Pulse
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM79 Dark Pulse
TM86 Grass Knot
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
HM04 Strength
HM06 Rock Smash

EGG (Monster/Dragon)
-Skull Bash (Venusaur, Blastoise, Marowak)
-Dragon Rage (Charizard, Garchomp, Dragonite, Kingdra, Salamence)
-Zen Headbutt (Slowbro, Rampardos, Salamence)
-Iron Head? (Marowak, Tyranitar, Aggron, Bastiodon, Garchomp)
-Leaf Blade (Sceptile, Tropius)

PREVO
-Fire Spin
-Overheat
-Heatwave

OTHER POSSIBILITIES
-Dragon Dance (Egg Group)
-Worry Seed (Egg Group)
-Leaf Storm (Egg Group)
-Blaze Kick (Level Up)

I dunno, just my two cents.
 
Ewww, font tags. You should remove those. Also, I think this shouldn't get a recover move, Plant/Monster Egg Group. Egg moves - Dragonbreath, Leech Seed, Stomp, Wood Hammer, and Charge Beam. Stat buff up - SD
 
Gothic Togekiss said:
Code: 
[B]
 1. [/B]Should it learn any recovery move other than Rest?
-Leech Seed, no more
[B] 2.[/B] Should it get any stat buffs at all? If yes then which      one(s)?
-No
[B] 3.[/B] Which theme related moves should fill in those slot with “Cannon/Beam      related move” in them? If there’s no cannon/beam moves you want in those      slots, then what moves do you want in them?
-Lava Plume, Solar Beam, Flamethrower, Coconut Blast, and Zap Cannon
[B] 4.[/B] Which Egg group this monster belong in?
-Plant/Monster looks OK for me
[B] 5.[/B] Saying of Egg groups, which egg move should it be able to learn? This question is most likely reflected on what egg group we will be in.
-Later...
[/quote]
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I don't think Synthesis would be broken on this pokemon at all. Considering that it has only 8 PP and the common sandstorm to deal with, it really gives this guy a needed chance to switch in multiple times, as Leech Seed is only going to let it recover significant health if it is used on Blissey. Even if this means it will be more difficult to kill in the sun, it also makes it easier for Tyranitar and Heatran to switch in consequently.
 
Dragon Rush would be fine, I think; it hits Salamence and Dragonite super-effective, but off 70 base attack it's not going to come close to OHKOing them. I'd prefer it to Rock Slide, as it hurts them more and the UU/BL Fire types less (especially Moltres and Charizard).

Dragon Pulse I'm less sure about, due to being a better move overall and running off a stronger attack stat. Also, special sets are already guaranteed to get Hidden Power Ice/Ground/Rock to help out type coverage, I'm not sure giving it anything more at all on that front is a good idea.

On physical sets, I'm not sure people realize just how powerful STAB no recoil Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer is, even off a mere 70 base attack. With 252 attack EVs it outdamages 252 attack Weavile's Ice Punch and is within a few percentage point of 252 attack Tyranitar's Crunch, plus those two STABs hit all but two types neutral. That's where the concerns about centralizing the metagame come in, when people want to give it perfect type coverage (i.e. Ground/Rock attacks) and/or good attack buffs.
 
okay.... I lost the quote I had for this.

anyways, I agree with Latinoheat's movepool with one objection: Will-o-Wisp doesn't fit thematically enough to be a level up move. The entire rest of the moveset is sunny day related, but Will-o-Wisp is dark and ghostly. It can stay in the TM section, but it seems out of place as a level up move.

Recovery - sure why not, it fits with the sun theme. Also, Morning Sun > Synthesis because Lizards warm up in the sun and do not preform photosynthesis.

Egg Move - Plant / Ground because that is cool and Shiftry's groups.

I don't remember anything else being that pressing, going back to OP to check.

Also, no Dragon moves. This thing does not need perfect coverage on everything besides Heatran.


Edit:
Growth and Howl are the only two debatable stat-ups and I don't really care if they make it or not. Iron Defense and Acid Armor are also good, but don't really fit the theme.
 
Mekkah said:
Don't give it Ice Beam please, it hardly makes sense considering its cannons are all about heat, and it is a huge step towards "overpowered" (hits Togekiss and Zapdos SE, for one).
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Starmie lives in the water and he gets Thunderbolt, Thunder, and Thunderwave. Slowbro gets Flamethrower and Fire Blast and he's a water type. Lapras gets Solarbeam, and I don't know how. All fire types also get Solarbeam, so they can hit ground, water, and rock (fire's counters). If he's beam related, I don't really see why Ice Beam can't fit, but I'm not going to argue for it that much. I just think it'd be nice to break from tradition.
 
I knew there was a reason I stopped reading these threads. Seriously, a poll's up for one day and has 10 pages.... So yeah, sorry if I'm re-inventing the wheel with some of my responses here.

1. Should it learn any recovery move other than Rest?

Absolutely not. Show me a bulky pseudo-wall with a recovery move and I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. I personally thought Revenankh having Moonlight was a mistake, and I refuse to let that happen again. With no stat-boosters, it may be somewhat acceptable, but considering that it's stats aren't repellant enough as our last creations', it does deserve them. So I'd have to say no to recovery moves other than Rest. Think Suicune, not Blissey.​

2. Should it get any stat buffs at all? If yes then which one(s)?

Indeed it should. First on the list is harden for obvious reasons, but I'd also have to say Bulk Up and Stockpile. The stats are, like I said, much more deserving of Bulk Up than Revenankh's were, and on a specially-oriented set like this, Bulk Up hardly invites brokenness. Besides, for all the recoil moves this thing will get, do you really want to deal yourself more damage with no instant recovery move? Stockpile because I want defense boosts, even if it doesn't work so much flavor-wise....​

3. Which theme related moves should fill in those slot with “Cannon/Beam related move” in them? If there’s no cannon/beam moves you want in those slots, then what moves do you want in them?

Flamethrower is a given, as is Fire Blast and Solarbeam. I've read of some Zap Cannon debate, and that is a definite no. Water pokemon are granted some switch-in potential here, assuming a special rather than physical set, and we don't want to ruin that (remember Syclant?). On that note, no Charge Beam either. Or any other Electric attack. So pretty much no beam moves.​

4. Which Egg group this monster belong in?

Well, you just said one: Monster. Come on, it freaking screams Monster group. For my second group, I'm torn between Ground and Humanshape. Ground gives such a better movepool, but Humanshape is more fitting. For those of you saying Plant, remember that the Grass characteristics are evident in the fact that it's a forest lizard, not that it's an actual plant.​

5. Saying of Egg groups, which egg move should it be able to learn? This question is most likely reflected on what egg group we will be in.

I have no idea.​
 
Nokocchi said:
What's with everyone giving it Dragon Moves?

Last I remember,

Lizard or any other Generic Reptile =/= Dragon

If that was the case, we'd be seeing Dragon Rage/Breath/Pulse Arbok, Kelcleon, and Torkoal.
Click to expand...


Milotic used Dragonbreath!
Sceptile used Dragon Pulse!
Charizard used Outrage!
Feraligator used Dragon Claw!
Aggron used Dragon Claw!
Groudon used Dragon Claw!
Tyranitar used Dragon Claw!
Aredactyl used Dragon Claw!
Ferliagator used Dragon Dance!
Kingdra used Dragon Dance!
Gyrados used Dragon Dance!
Lapras used Dragon Dance!
Lucario used Dragon Pulse!
Arcanine used Dragon Pulse!
Nidoking/Queen used Dragon Pulse!
Rhydon/Steelix used Dragon Pulse!
Heatran used Dragon Pulse!
Kingdra used Dragon Rage!
Gyrados used Dragon Rage!
Rhyperior used Dragon Rush!
Aggron used Dragon Rush!
Feebas used Dragonbreath! (lol)



However, this thing is getting severly overpowered, imo. No Dragon coverage to Uber it.
 
Honestly, this doesn't have the speed to really sweep with the coverage that a Dragon Move would allow. I see no problem with it. It allows for more creativity to go into this pokemon's move sets and perhaps allows it to continue evolving after it is finished.

Also, practically every Fire-type gets Will-o-Wisp; it's almost as generic as Solar Beam in D/P. Magmortar, Magcargo, Rapidash, Blaziken; heck, even pseudo-Fire types like Solrock get it. The flavor signified by WoW is less that of a ghostly move and more of a generic burn one.

Gothic Togekiss said:
1. Should it learn any recovery move other than Rest?
Leech Seed; other than that I see no need.

2. Should it get any stat buffs at all? If yes then which one(s)?
Agility/Rock Polish, Iron Defense, Growth and Howl. I would favor Bulk Up but I doubt it will get it.

3. Which theme related moves should fill in those slot with “Cannon/Beam related move” in them? If there’s no cannon/beam moves you want in those slots, then what moves do you want in them?

Other people have had pretty good ideas here before me. I'll call Rock Slide and Dragon Pulse, and WoW as inclusions as well in order to draw attention to them, although this doesn't exactly answer the question.

4. Which Egg group this monster belong in?
Monster/Dragon. Maybe Plant or Ground.

5. Saying of Egg groups, which egg move should it be able to learn? This question is most likely reflected on what egg group we will be in.

It could get Leech Seed and other Grass stuff through Sceptile o.O
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GT, all I'm going to say is that make sure this gets Leech Seed, Will-o-wisp, Rest, Lava Plume, Grass Knot and Fire Blast...and make sure it doesn't get Ice Beam, Focus Punch, Close Combat / Superpower, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Earthpower, Tail Glow, Nasty Plot and Calm Mind,

Any other questionable thing, like Sleep Powder, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, I am perfectly fine with testing and cannot think of any reasonable ways that it would definitely be broken with any of those.

That is all.
 
Aldaron said:
make sure it doesn't get Ice Beam, Focus Punch, Close Combat / Superpower, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Earthpower, Tail Glow, Nasty Plot and Calm Mind
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Five out the ten moves you listed have no way in hell of making it purely on the fact that can't physically be able to use at all. The other five in my opinion are questionable, but have too much support against to ignore.

Aldaron said:
Any other questionable thing, like Sleep Powder, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, I am perfectly fine with testing and cannot think of any reasonable ways that it would definitely be broken with any of those.
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I somewhat have a feeling that those kind of moves will be on the poll for people to discuss and to vote on. This also includes Ancient Power and Zap Cannon.


Either Monster/Dragon or Monster/Ground.
 
Lol out of the ten moves I listed to be banned, besides Calm Mind, Earthquake and Stone Edge I am the most adamant about.

Sure, flavor wise this thing is very appropriate for them...but I don't like how nearly every check / counter is beaten by those two. No Earthquake / Stone Edge...let's be reasonable now.
 
Aldaron, can you explain to me exactly how EQ is unbalancing?

Like I said, to have it be of any use, he'd be needing to run a Physical set as it is (which already counters a lot of his checks; Tentacruel would be easily 2HKOed by Wood Hammer off a Life Orbed Max+ Attack). If you can show me an effective mix set where EQ would earn a spot, I'll drop the argument, but until then it's just Theorymon from both sides.
 
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