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Lets actually talk about Mew in OU...
- Thread starter kd24
- Start date
Dont forget ghost, and dark too.
I'd personally just like to start from scratch. Unban everything except Arceus and Kyogre, and then unban a few each month until we are happy with what is uber. That's how the uber tier is supposed to be worked out anyways. Instead, we jumped to conclusions, and put Deoxys-S of all things in uber. If we'd tested properly, we would've known it shouldn't be there all along.
Why do ppl think Garchomp, Pursuit T-tar, Weavile are better than Mew. Mew can barrier/bulk up and Softboiled/Roost in their face. Even Celebii's leech seed doesn't provide the walling power that Mew does. Garchomp's unboosted EQ's do around 25-30% to Mew. It's too good for OU.
A defensive Mew can sub/taunt and set up NP against so many current walls - Blissey, Hippo, Non-exploding Bronzong, Celebi, Skarm gets taunted and , Jirachi does lolz damage, even with u-turn. Considering it kills off the most reliable special walls with NP + Aura Sphere, without the low speed and common weaknesses of Togakiss (and it has taunt and 101 subs), this thing will literally take a large brown oozing crap on the current metagame.
A defensive Mew can sub/taunt and set up NP against so many current walls - Blissey, Hippo, Non-exploding Bronzong, Celebi, Skarm gets taunted and , Jirachi does lolz damage, even with u-turn. Considering it kills off the most reliable special walls with NP + Aura Sphere, without the low speed and common weaknesses of Togakiss (and it has taunt and 101 subs), this thing will literally take a large brown oozing crap on the current metagame.
I didn't say better, I said used more (and generally, being used a lot is what OU is all about). My argument is lets say Mew gets tested into OU, what place on the usage list would it have to fall on to be considered broken? This is what happened to Deoxys-E and Wobbuffet, everyone was talking about how gamebreaking and centralizing these pokemon were gonna be to OU and guess what happened. No one (practically) used them. I think #14 is the closest Wobbuffet got to cracking the top 10 and just fell from there.
Extend that same logic to testing Mew into OU. Would it have to be #1 in usage to be broken for OU? What if it was #2 and Garchomp was #1, what then?
My argument is, if Mew were to be introduced into OU, Garchomp would probably still be the #1 pokemon, not cause its better, but for whatever reason people like using Garchomp (cough*amazinguniversalSTAB*cough)
As far as over centralization goes the main worry is it would force every team to carry a direct counter to it.
I think mew would be quite strong, but I'm not so sure about completely overpowered. Taunt, Baton Pass and Nasty Plot leaves only one move slot open.
Now, outside of Mew Ambipom is the only other pokemon I've found that can pick up this moveset. It can shutdown the same kinds of set, but the trouble is it's throttled off because it has no type coverage if it picks up this set. Only one attacking move.
On top of that we have smeargle, who is even more flexible in moveset selections than Mew, but with far more limited stats who can also use the same set.
As far as speed goes ambipom is actually faster than mew but more limited in sweeping potential, so could actually beat it to the punch.
With some of the high end special sweepers around nasty plot + sweeping move doesn't scare me very much, and I cope with enough baton passers to have some skill in breaking their chains, despite being swept a few times.
Also taunt isn't a pure solution for phasing, it assumes that Mew can taunt before it switches, if you carry a resist for the sweeper it can be revenge killed quite well, or phased as long as the actual phazer isn't coming right up against mew. Unless mew is in the middle of a ninjask chain, it probably wont be passing speed ups.
We already have several pokemon running amuck that can't be predicted before their movesets are figured out, but that doesn't mean they're totally imbalanced or stoppable. It just makes them very lethal and nasty.
I think, were it introduced, mew would be popular and often used, but in no way dominating all of OU. Also it would probably be the strongest baton passer out there, but still not unstoppable. Also, although it is quite fast, any opposing taunts will shut it down. Worst case scenario hazers become more common that can outspeed mew.
I think mew would be quite strong, but I'm not so sure about completely overpowered. Taunt, Baton Pass and Nasty Plot leaves only one move slot open.
Now, outside of Mew Ambipom is the only other pokemon I've found that can pick up this moveset. It can shutdown the same kinds of set, but the trouble is it's throttled off because it has no type coverage if it picks up this set. Only one attacking move.
On top of that we have smeargle, who is even more flexible in moveset selections than Mew, but with far more limited stats who can also use the same set.
As far as speed goes ambipom is actually faster than mew but more limited in sweeping potential, so could actually beat it to the punch.
With some of the high end special sweepers around nasty plot + sweeping move doesn't scare me very much, and I cope with enough baton passers to have some skill in breaking their chains, despite being swept a few times.
Also taunt isn't a pure solution for phasing, it assumes that Mew can taunt before it switches, if you carry a resist for the sweeper it can be revenge killed quite well, or phased as long as the actual phazer isn't coming right up against mew. Unless mew is in the middle of a ninjask chain, it probably wont be passing speed ups.
We already have several pokemon running amuck that can't be predicted before their movesets are figured out, but that doesn't mean they're totally imbalanced or stoppable. It just makes them very lethal and nasty.
I think, were it introduced, mew would be popular and often used, but in no way dominating all of OU. Also it would probably be the strongest baton passer out there, but still not unstoppable. Also, although it is quite fast, any opposing taunts will shut it down. Worst case scenario hazers become more common that can outspeed mew.
Timid Gengar Shadowball vs 0/0 Mew: 78.01% - 91.79%.
Life Orb Weavile Night Slash vs 0/0 Mew: 84.16% - 98.83%
Life Orb Modest Spiritomb Shadowball vs 0/0 Mew: 87.98% - 103.52%
Life Orb Adamant Spiritomb SuckerPunch vs 0/0 Mew: 87.98% - 103.52%
No EV investment required at all to survive these things most of the time. Granted, start throwing in Specs or Life Orb on Gengar and you'll worry... but Scarf Gengar, Deoxys-S, Weavile, etc. etc. don't really worry Mew. I know that wasn't the main point of your post, but I just want to drive this point home.
Could you guys really just stop comparing Mew to other Pokemon?
Because it's a really, really, terrible comparison.
The fact that you can compare Mew to Celebi, Gengar, Ambipom, whatever, just shows how much more powerful Mew is. The point of Mew is that you can probably compare it to a plethora of Pokemon because of it's vast possibilities. You can't compare Mew to other Pokemon because it does something different - it does "all of above", meaning that it has a huge advantage in terms of movepool, not to mention Mew is pretty damn Bulky (it can do everything Mesprit does)
Name a Pokemon that has more than 100 Base Speed that can afford to try and taunt Mew that wouldn't be endangered by Nasty Plot Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere.
Hazers Faster than Mew: Gengar, Crobat. Guess who gets KO'd by Psychic?
Like who, Smeargle? Smeargle's base stats are a joke, Clefable wishes it has the movepool Mew did (and base stats). Just because "oh It can hit from both ends of the spectrum" doesn't mean it's unpredictable to the level Mew is.
It's not? How so? A phazer switches in, gets Taunted since WW/Roar has a negative priority. Oh, so you're going to switch in, and switch out? Why give Mew two free turns? What are you even suggesting here?
Togekiss's only counter is Zapdos or Status. Nearly every team in the RMT forum is weak to MixApe. Just because they "don't scare you very much" doesn't mean it's pretty damn powerful
Why do you assume Mew will be in a BP Chain? It could just you know, pass those stats straight away to something big and scary.
Because it's a really, really, terrible comparison.
The fact that you can compare Mew to Celebi, Gengar, Ambipom, whatever, just shows how much more powerful Mew is. The point of Mew is that you can probably compare it to a plethora of Pokemon because of it's vast possibilities. You can't compare Mew to other Pokemon because it does something different - it does "all of above", meaning that it has a huge advantage in terms of movepool, not to mention Mew is pretty damn Bulky (it can do everything Mesprit does)
Name a Pokemon that has more than 100 Base Speed that can afford to try and taunt Mew that wouldn't be endangered by Nasty Plot Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere.
Hazers Faster than Mew: Gengar, Crobat. Guess who gets KO'd by Psychic?
Like who, Smeargle? Smeargle's base stats are a joke, Clefable wishes it has the movepool Mew did (and base stats). Just because "oh It can hit from both ends of the spectrum" doesn't mean it's unpredictable to the level Mew is.
It's not? How so? A phazer switches in, gets Taunted since WW/Roar has a negative priority. Oh, so you're going to switch in, and switch out? Why give Mew two free turns? What are you even suggesting here?
Togekiss's only counter is Zapdos or Status. Nearly every team in the RMT forum is weak to MixApe. Just because they "don't scare you very much" doesn't mean it's pretty damn powerful
Why do you assume Mew will be in a BP Chain? It could just you know, pass those stats straight away to something big and scary.
I'm just trying to counter the arguments of people who state that Mew would be either too centralizing or just rofl at OU. My argument is that since Garchomp is OU, a lot of the same reasons the extends to Garchomp's "OU-ness" can be used to counter that Mew is somehow more Uber than OU.
Mildly amusing given Garchomp gets pushed for Ubers every other month.
Anyway. I don't think that comparing Mew's many different roles to other pokemon that "do them better" is the answer, because you shouldn't play Clefable like a bad Blissey, and you wouldn't play a NP Mew exactly like a NP Ambipom. If nothing else, base 100 spA is a lot more painful doubled than base 60 and Aura Sphere > Swift. (Yes Ambi does have 115 speed, but the durability of a wet paper bag as opposed to 100s all around).
And Garchomp is still OU after D/P has been out for 13 months in the US.
If Garchomp can be OU for that long, I think Mew has a pretty good argument for being an OU-pokemon as well.
Somewhat because we have no clue how to define ubers and thus we haven't banned anything to ubers since DP's inception.
(Note, this isn't a shot at policy makers, simply an observation based on the forums and this thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37401 )
Going by sheer numbers, Garchomp has been at the top of the usages, second only to Blissey for a few months, in the entire time that shoddy has been compiling that data.
I agree with you completely on this, I think the main point is for whichever example that's brought up the reply is "but we can already do that with such and such" meaning the moveset wont imbalance things on its own, since practically all the options mew has are mimicked on some pokemon or another.
The largest danger is in mew obsoleting several pokemon altogether purely on the merits of better stats and a larger movepool. Its type is well covered in the current meta though, add on to that a moderate ability and it might not be dominating.
My point was that it can be walled by something with that set, although what walls it will vary. If it's carrying BP, Nasty Plot, and Taunt it only has one slot left for an attacking move. Dangerous and powerful? Naturally, but just because it's unpredictable doesn't make it unstoppable.
If it's carrying shadow ball, it's walled by any normal type as well as dark and steel, with aura sphere, it's walled by other psychic, poison and flying.
If it carries both? It's nasty to counter, but is missing out on another key move.
It may be comparable to many other pokemon, but it can't do everything they can all at once.
The truth is you can't totally counter it until you know its moveset. You can only gamble against the weaknesses. At the same time, the current arguments for what constitutes uber isn't unpredictability, but instead causing overcentralization of the metagame.
Very true, I simply brought it up as a side mention to indicate movepool alone doesn't break something. I agree that unbanning mew is playing with fire. I think it has more potential to smash the metagame apart than garchomp, doexys-s or anything else given its good stats and large movepool.
You don't switch in on mew, you switch in on whatever it baton passes too while making life hell for mew while it's out. Remember if mew is carrying both shadow ball/aura sphere it's skipping out on taunt, baton pass, or nasty plot, it can't do everything at once.
Both are evil and a nightmare to deal with if your team isn't setup properly. The question here is "is it stoppable" not "is it powerful" as far as power goes, it's very strong for something being considered for overused. But I think it's stoppable. A team might be strong against one build of mew, but completely fall to another.
That was a reference to getting passed a speed boost specifically. I actually suspect it to pass the stats to something big and scary, then you deal with that threat when it comes out. In the current metagame baton pass teams are common enough that you already have to find a way to defeat similar threats. We already deal with baton passed nasty plots. Mew having taunt as well does mess up several strategies, but other approaches (such as using status to mess up a chain) aren't beyond question.
I honestly don't know where mew would fall, and I agree it's dangerous. It would most certainly be one of the strongest pokemon in OU, even as a lone baton passer on a team.
I suppose the real question with mew should be, will it make large numbers of pokemon obsolete? Will it overpower the current meta? and Will it centralize the metagame?
There's a chance that due to having better stats than most of the pokemon that can pull off similar sets people would stop playing with those it's compared too and simply play mew, as it fits and is far more unpredictable (so you can't guess the set right off) this is the largest danger.
I don't believe it will beat out everything in the current meta, or overcentralize, but will be a dominating force. If it causes a good chunk of pokemon to drop out, it should be kept in uber. I have no idea what will happen, and I think all of the above pokemon have their own merits based on abilities and typing, as well as small advantages in various stats (like ambipom being faster than mew at the taunt/np/bp set).
If it doesn't, and merely settles into the middle of the pack, with things looking mostly the same as deoxys-s and wobbafet did? Then it should be kept around. Although, wobbafet should really be resolved before anything else is tested, but that's another bucket of rusty nails.
This is not specific to this thread, but it seems until we have a clear yardstick on what it means to be Uber, we ought to slow down here. Otherwise, just un-ban all the Pokemon, and start the tier system fresh. Rework it all from the ground up, no assumptions that "X" is too powerful, etc.
I'm not against Mew being put back into OU for testing. I like the pink fuzz ball. However while we're arguing about Mew decent arguments are going around about Latias, Latios, Garchomp, etc.
you stated the exact reason why this is the case -a loophole in the Tier System, so to speak.
There was no testing at all done in D/P about any Ubers in OU, they were banned from the start (with the exception of Manaphy's feeble test period because it came out after the others). This meant that things like Deoxys-E and Wobbuffet were kept in Ubers for a year only to be unbanned now and not overcentralize / overpower the OU metagame in the slightest.
This wave of other pokemon pushing for a "de-Uberization" is the natural consequence of that, since the alternative option of unbanning the doubtful ones and then banning them back is a tad too revolutionary.
anyway, back on topic x_x
When mentioning Baton Passing Mew, I think a lot of people fail to realize that Mew destroys pretty much all the viable psuedo hazers out there one way or another, a trait that a lot of BPers generally lack. You can't really name a good psuedo hazer that won't be nailed hard by its attacks except maybe Snorlax for Nasty Plotters. Basically reminiscent of BP Zapdos in ADV (and DP?), except for the fact that Mew is passing so much more than Agility and Substitutes and hits harder under offensive stat boosts.
Since when does a pokemon have to be "unstoppable" in order to be banned?
A lot of people are throwing around words like this that aren't really defined. I can understand an argument involving words like "counter," "phaze," "switch," "outspeed," as these things have definitions. Unstoppable/stoppable? Overpowering/underpowering? What the hell are you people saying?
I think the fact that mew's "discussion" is forcing out words not part of regular terminology is disturbing. Heck, Mewtwo is "stoppable" in OU, depending on your definition.
edit: Also on the comment of "Not all 600's are built equal," when Chris put in "Alright fine put in Shaymin" I thought to myself-- "Ok, but are there any crappy ones besides Shaymin?" All the 600s outside Shaymin (who is in part only unseen because he overshadowed by celebi) are either powerful OUs or Uber. I mean Jirachi is not Garchomp, but these 600s "lacking a defining stat," are hardly slouches. Jirachi and Celebi wish they had a movepool remotely similar to Mew and they are both still definitely OU. 100 is not a bad stat, and 100 everywhere is not a bad spread.
A lot of people are throwing around words like this that aren't really defined. I can understand an argument involving words like "counter," "phaze," "switch," "outspeed," as these things have definitions. Unstoppable/stoppable? Overpowering/underpowering? What the hell are you people saying?
I think the fact that mew's "discussion" is forcing out words not part of regular terminology is disturbing. Heck, Mewtwo is "stoppable" in OU, depending on your definition.
edit: Also on the comment of "Not all 600's are built equal," when Chris put in "Alright fine put in Shaymin" I thought to myself-- "Ok, but are there any crappy ones besides Shaymin?" All the 600s outside Shaymin (who is in part only unseen because he overshadowed by celebi) are either powerful OUs or Uber. I mean Jirachi is not Garchomp, but these 600s "lacking a defining stat," are hardly slouches. Jirachi and Celebi wish they had a movepool remotely similar to Mew and they are both still definitely OU. 100 is not a bad stat, and 100 everywhere is not a bad spread.
I'd like to see Mew in OU. Mostly because he is one of my favorites, but also because I really don't think it's broken.
This clearly unbiased opinion will be taken highly into account as people evaluate the centralization effects, if any, that Mew has in the currently established OU metagame.