Defensive Line-Up

Cort

Okay, I'm probably gonna sound like an idiot, so I apologize in advance. I have only played on wifi, and not competatively. I have, however, watched as many competative battles as I can find in an attempt to absorb the feeling of the game. I have read as much as I can about the over used and border line pokemon.

What scares me is the potency of some sweepers.
I may have exaggerated ideas on how hard some pokemon hit, but I don't understand how you can even counter Yache Berry/Swords Dance Garchomp. I've looked him up, and I always get "Mamoswine with enough HP and defense to withstand an attack with Ice Shard." I read that it can take down a skarmory in two hits. I can only think of Cresselia as a counter, and even then, switching it into Choice Band Variants of Garchomp, and to a lesser Extent, Salamence, but it won't dish out enough damage to a Garchomp with Yache berry to actually matter.

Is there even a way to counter him? What scares me about Garchomp is not only the unpredictability he has, but how all of his counters listed in the "Counters" section of this site are all big IFs. You have to know what hes using. If you don't, you lose to him. If that didn't make things worse, in Sandstorm, you have a 20% chance to miss him completely, and with a Yache Berry Garchomp, you can't afford to miss.

Salamence to a lesser extent, because the physical version is weak to Stealth Rock, and doesn't get a stab Earthquake.

Gyarados is in the same boat as Salamence, only it's weakness is a bit easier to hit. The problem, is they're aren't that many great counters to him that can hit him hard enough unless they carry T-Bolt, and I've started to see him carry a berry of his own on some of the teams on this site. He also taunts so he can't be crippled. I'm also worried about having an Electivire come in just to take the T-Bolt or possible Thunder Wave, grabbing a speed boost and covering a wide variety of types.

For Metagross, in the first set listed here (Choice Band), it mentions that Meteor Mash does tons of damage, resisted or not.
I don't know how much Metagross would do because most of my friends use Garchomp, Salamence, Dragonite, and Gyarados. The problem is it looks like his reliable physical counters are Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong, but they all have to watch out for his elemental punch.

What I'm asking is, what is a good defensive line-up?
The common Skarm/Bliss has a lot of counters, and Cresselia over Skarmory means you are crippled in sandstorm. What, realistically, has a formidable chance at consistently defending a team? It would be ideal if someone who has experience could list a counter to (Taking into account Garchomp's evasion in sandstorm):
Yache Berry/Swords Dance Garchomp
Choice Band Garchomp
Choice Band Salamence
DDSalamence
BulkyGyara with Wacan Berry
Choice Band Metagross
Expert Belt/Life Orb Electivire

If possible, sketchy calculations to the counter mentioned, but saying what has a consistent chance of working at least :]

Oh, and I'm extremely annoyed by the ask a simple question, get a simple answer saying on this site, so I hope you all had fun reading that :]
 
I don't mean to sound anticlimactic here but defensive teams simply don't work at the moment. Don't even bother.

If you are going to bother though, use the triple combination of bliss, skarm and cress, and add gliscor. Make sure Cress is boltbeaming and you're golden.

Now i have an issue with the comment "taking sand veil into effect". How exactly are you supposed to do that? It's either going to miss or not miss, and there isn't anything you can do about it.
 
There's not a whole lot of point to defense. Kill them before they kill you, it's not like the opponent is going to give you a second of breathing room with Chomp, Ttar, and Gengar on virtually every team, all running different sets which you cannot feasibly counter.
 
The only way to "take Sand Veil" into effect is to use a No Guard Scarfed Machamp. Actually, I'd have to say that ScarfChamp is a pretty excellent counter to most everything there, though it's not going to cover a Wacan BulkyGyara or a YacheChomp. However, using ScarfChamp with Dynamicpunch/Thunderpunch/Ice Punch/Payback should cover most everything that would pose a threat.

Pairing ScarfChamp with Deoxys-E allows you to revenge kill if Machamp goes down. Machamp is bulky enough to take a hit from most scary sweepers, and it will almost invariably oneshot most everything it wants to kill. CB Metagross will still be a problem, as Dynamicpunch only hits Neutral against it, but Swampert will wipe it out with its resistance to Steel and STAB Earthquake.

Machamp will also take down the Tyranitar that sets up the sand for Garchomp, and it can sweep teams if used correctly. It's quite bulky, and the confusion from Dynamicpunch can save your ass in many occasions.
 
1. Toxic Spikes is a must in my opinion to wear out sweepers like Tyranitar and Garchomp.

2. Lots of Ice attacks, and I mean lots of Ice attacks.

3. Make sure that you use Pokemon bulky enough not to get OHKO'd by SD Garchomp. (Zapdos, Celebi, etc.)

4. Be prepared to sacrifice some walls as necessary, DP's new and improved offense means that 6-0s by and large are close to impossible.

Yache Berry/Swords Dance Garchomp: "Zapdos, Skarmory, Cresselia, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Bronzong"
Choice Band Garchomp: "Bronzong, Skarmory"
Choice Band Salamence: "Swampert, Skarmory, Bronzong, Suicune, Milotic"
DDSalamence "Starmie, Swampert, Milotic, Suicune, Zapdos"
BulkyGyara with Wacan Berry "Celebi, Starmie, Vaporeon, HP Electric Milotic"
Choice Band Metagross "Skarmory, Bronzong, Scizor, Swampert, Forretress"
Expert Belt/Life Orb Electivire "Hippowdon, Swampert, Cresselia"
 
Thanks for the information, it really helped.
Just to clarify, I'm not trying to build an all out stall team, just trying to find out some possible defense line-ups and realistic counters to these new hard-hitters.

I think I'm gonna run Bliss/Cress and maybe Skarmory/Forretress. Any ideas on wether the third slot in defense will help or hurt my team? I'm planning a Baton Pass team, and if I use Skarmory as well, it takes a slot from my physical/special sweeper side of my team. I've decided I want a baton passer, and my pick was from the UU enviroment mostly for surprise, so Skarmory means I lose a sweeper :\

Any opinions as to wether the third slot in defense is worth it?

On another note, I don't understand how Weavile functions as a revenge killer since Pursuit is the only thing stopping them from switching out? I would think Ice Shard/Ice Punch would be the only thing that could do enough damage to actually threaten anything besides Gengar/Azelf/Alakazam, and using Ice Shard on a Garchomp means it can switch out, no? I apologize again for my inexperience, but I'd rather learn fast and look like a newbie now then never be any good in this new enviroment :|
 
imperfectluck said:
SNIP

DDSalamence "Starmie, Swampert, Milotic, Suicune, Zapdos"
Click to expand...

Starmie unfortunately gets OHKOd by salamence's DD'd life orb dragon claw.
110.30% - 129.57%

Other than that, it's all good... But the odd stone edge can OHKO 252/220/ bold zapdos with 103.39% - 121.61%

SMAAAAASH

Salamence is very deadly...
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
Machamp will also take down the Tyranitar that sets up the sand for Garchomp, and it can sweep teams if used correctly. It's quite bulky, and the confusion from Dynamicpunch can save your ass in many occasions.
Click to expand...
A Bulk Up Machamp can do much the same thing; after a Bulk Up or two Garchomp won't be doing much to you, and the majority of pokemon don't like taking boosted Dynamic Punches or Stone Edges.

ScarfChamp is really weak unless it's dealing out super-effective hits, as it must run Jolly to even outspeed Garchomp.
 
You might have to use some counters that counter multiple pokemon at the same time.

For example, I use the same pokemon to counter Gyarados and most Garchomp: Celebi with Reflect/Recover/HP Ice/Grass Knot. That same Celebi works well with RestTalk Heatran, who works well with a Bulky Water like Swampert or Vaporeon. This forms the defense for most of my teams nowadays, since all three of those can do something about Garchomp. (Celebi can Reflect+HP Ice; Heatran takes Outrage; Vaporeon/Swampert can Ice Beam).
 
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