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***[VOTE] The final Wobbuffet "discussion" thread***
- Thread starter imperfectluck
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I vote Wobbuffet to be Uber.
I've faced Wobbuffet from time to time on the ladder, and in most of the cases a good player would manage to get at least one, two kills with Wobbuffet. It is unrivaled in its ability to setup many pokemon, and it would not come in/stay in on a dangerous threat.
I had tried out TAY's Wobbuffet team, and I had to admit it was impressive considering the whole team did not have much defenses but Wobbuffet never failed in its ability to cause setups for other pokemon, even if it was crippled by a status condition.
I have read the log between TAY and husk, and it clearly showed to me the ability of Wobbuffet to cause setups, down Scarfers easily, even when it was at critical health it still managed to take an unboosted Earthquake, Encore and then win TAY the game.
I'm not going to touch on the subject of Wobbuffet ruining most walls on Shoddy by PP stalling with Encore, since it was glitched causing the opponent to Struggle after Encore had ended and there was 0 PP left, which is different from the real game where Encore ends when said move runs out of PP. But the other points are still valid, Wobbuffet can indirectly "defeat" walls by giving setups to pokemon that was countered by said wall, enabling it to get two turns of free setup which would mean death when dealing with dangerous setup sweepers. Wobbuffet can still Encore and Counter/Mirror Coat depending on the attack thrown at it, which would mean that the wall is defeated either way - by setting up on a support move OR by reflecting attack moves back at the opponent.
I've faced Wobbuffet from time to time on the ladder, and in most of the cases a good player would manage to get at least one, two kills with Wobbuffet. It is unrivaled in its ability to setup many pokemon, and it would not come in/stay in on a dangerous threat.
I had tried out TAY's Wobbuffet team, and I had to admit it was impressive considering the whole team did not have much defenses but Wobbuffet never failed in its ability to cause setups for other pokemon, even if it was crippled by a status condition.
I have read the log between TAY and husk, and it clearly showed to me the ability of Wobbuffet to cause setups, down Scarfers easily, even when it was at critical health it still managed to take an unboosted Earthquake, Encore and then win TAY the game.
I'm not going to touch on the subject of Wobbuffet ruining most walls on Shoddy by PP stalling with Encore, since it was glitched causing the opponent to Struggle after Encore had ended and there was 0 PP left, which is different from the real game where Encore ends when said move runs out of PP. But the other points are still valid, Wobbuffet can indirectly "defeat" walls by giving setups to pokemon that was countered by said wall, enabling it to get two turns of free setup which would mean death when dealing with dangerous setup sweepers. Wobbuffet can still Encore and Counter/Mirror Coat depending on the attack thrown at it, which would mean that the wall is defeated either way - by setting up on a support move OR by reflecting attack moves back at the opponent.
I vote Wobb to be Uber, you need very little skill to play him effectively (especially to kill at least one Poke with him). It's uncounterable too. For this reason, most players hate Wobbuffett because it makes the game less competitive/fun, because 'foolproof' strategies can be completely ruined beucase a Wobbuffet comes in, (I can't think of any other pokemon that can completely throw a wrench in an opponent's team because other pokemon can be countered).
just to point out now if both pokemon have shadow tag they can switch out.
It's been pointed out elsewhere in the thread, but in this case the argument fits particularly well: The same exact argument could be placed on Cugtrio. Switch him in on a character that cannot escape, the fact that he can't trap flyers is not an argument. Once he's in, his high speed and strong physical attacks will almost definitely get a kill. The only time you may not be able to accomplish this, is when their team is strong defensively and resistant to physical attack. Well, guess what? The same is true about Wobbuffet.
Wobbuffet doesn't remove skill per se, he lessens it for a small percent of the time. Often he calls for a greater team strategy, or else he'll simply take out a single pokemon. After he comes in the first time, and they know that he is on your team, prediction comes in on both sides to determine when he will come in next. Wobbuffet calls for a change in the metagame perhaps, such as a lessening of choice users or using more defensive teams, but how is that a bad thing? Had Wobbuffet never been banned, people would rarely complain.
Wobbuffet is not uber.
After dealing with this blue dildo for the past 4 or whatever months, I indeed believe it is uber. Wobby is ridicuously annoying and extremely hard to get rid of. As IPL said Wobby is pretty much guaranteed to take down a pokemon, or allow an easy sweep with an encore (oh how i wish encore was 2-5 turns!). I despise this pokemon, as do many and would love to see it out of OU for good after so many months of "testing" it.
What are you talking about if Wobbuffet never had been banned people would rarely complain lol. If people feel the way they do about Wobb now they certaintly would then!
What are you talking about if Wobbuffet never had been banned people would rarely complain lol. If people feel the way they do about Wobb now they certaintly would then!
I don't really feel that is 100% true. While Dugtrio can trap opponents (albeit MUCH less opponents than Wobb can trap), I don't believe it's as threatening. I don't find Dugtrio to be a 100% kill machine, it's even possible to kill it with Blissey with the right moves / EV spread, whereas Wobbuffett, unless you're completely inept or your opponent has Shed Shell, always gets a kill or effectively shuts down a stat upper. Dugtrio can only OHKO most of what it CAN OHKO because of Choice Band, which leaves you wide opened to be revenge killed. Because of Mirror Coat/Counter, Wobb can One or 2HKO everything that attacks it, or, again, shut it down with Encore. While they are similar, I feel like Wobb is vastly better than Dugtrio and other trappers.
And equally as many times this point has been refuted. Comparing what Wobbuffet does when he traps an opponent to what Dugtrio does when he traps an opponent is comparing apples and oranges. They're totally different things. Only Wobbuffet can kill anything regardless of weakness/resistance, and only Wobbuffet doesn't care when you start statting up because that means he gets to do this again. Dugtrio can't trap a lot of things, and a lot of the things he can trap, he can't kill before getting killed himself. They are in no way comparable.
i think that if this were a case of mean look / encore, then it would be different because the free turn you're getting is negated by the turn it took to use mean look. furthermore, if you expect mean look, you can switch into something before mean look takes effect.
wobb, however, need only switch in and use encore. therefore, wobb should be banned
wobb, however, need only switch in and use encore. therefore, wobb should be banned
While I completely agree with AA's post in the first page of this topic, I guess to not drive this discussion off topic I am being forced to take this vote seriously, disregarding the fact that I could get Garchomp banned to Ubers in two days if I employed a similar strategy on, say, Serebii.net.
Wobbuffet is not uber. As Obi stated, without the actual definition of uber it is not easy to even create an argument like this, but let's go for it anyway.
First, there is the absolute clear and indicative statistical data to be considered. Wobbuffet is 46th is weighted usage and 47th in unweighted usage. He has been unbanned for 5 months. Regardless of any personal opinions or theorymon, the evidence is clear in one aspect : Wobbuffet is NOT overcentralizing in any way.
Now, could anyone point out to me a single case of a pokemon which, since the release of D/P , we have not classified by this criteria on smogon????
Moving onto less factual arguments, since this is basically all the pro-uber side has to offer, arguments like "Wobbuffet take the fun out of the game" seem hard to acknowledge to begin with. How does he take the fun out of the game? Wobbuffet users still have to predict, they still have to use strategy, they still have to resort to all aspects of the game.
The only aspect of Wobbuffet which is maybe "easy to use" is picking off choice scarfed pokemon stuck in the wrong move, but that is revenge killing, and he's not the only one who does that well.
Wobbufet is just one more pokemon every user has to be prepared for.
There are ways to prevent Wobbuffet from doing it's thing. So what, he encored my SR'ing Swampert and went to Gyarados? I'll bring in my Weezing the turn after. Fine, he's brought in Wobbuffet on my Gliscor? Let him encore my Knock off (if I don't have taunt, that is). But I digress into theorymon which everyone who has posted in this topic should know.
I am writing this in the assumption that Event Moves will indeed be banned, so the Tickle set doesn't really need discussion at the moment.
Anyhow, it seems this has been reduced to an entirely populist move, so I doubt reasonable arguments will help.
Wobbuffet is not uber. As Obi stated, without the actual definition of uber it is not easy to even create an argument like this, but let's go for it anyway.
First, there is the absolute clear and indicative statistical data to be considered. Wobbuffet is 46th is weighted usage and 47th in unweighted usage. He has been unbanned for 5 months. Regardless of any personal opinions or theorymon, the evidence is clear in one aspect : Wobbuffet is NOT overcentralizing in any way.
Now, could anyone point out to me a single case of a pokemon which, since the release of D/P , we have not classified by this criteria on smogon????
Moving onto less factual arguments, since this is basically all the pro-uber side has to offer, arguments like "Wobbuffet take the fun out of the game" seem hard to acknowledge to begin with. How does he take the fun out of the game? Wobbuffet users still have to predict, they still have to use strategy, they still have to resort to all aspects of the game.
The only aspect of Wobbuffet which is maybe "easy to use" is picking off choice scarfed pokemon stuck in the wrong move, but that is revenge killing, and he's not the only one who does that well.
Wobbufet is just one more pokemon every user has to be prepared for.
There are ways to prevent Wobbuffet from doing it's thing. So what, he encored my SR'ing Swampert and went to Gyarados? I'll bring in my Weezing the turn after. Fine, he's brought in Wobbuffet on my Gliscor? Let him encore my Knock off (if I don't have taunt, that is). But I digress into theorymon which everyone who has posted in this topic should know.
I am writing this in the assumption that Event Moves will indeed be banned, so the Tickle set doesn't really need discussion at the moment.
Anyhow, it seems this has been reduced to an entirely populist move, so I doubt reasonable arguments will help.
Sure, he will gladly Encore your Knock Off, also killing Gliscor in the process.
Wobbuffet is Uber. The thing is, we don't have a specific definition for what is Uber, so it all comes down to examining what this pokemon has done for the metagame and the community. Well, it didn't do much besides provoking a large number of the battlers. When you bring a pokemon down a tier, you need to see how it benefits the metagame. Wobb is basically just standing there, bringing your battles to a halt, usually costing you at least 1 pokemon. If he's trying to PP stall you, that's just worse, as you know you can't do anything about it, but it will still take a lot of time just to get it over with. Sure you can look at the usage and claim he is FAR from being Uber, but what good is it when most of the community won't even consider using it? Are you trying to punish everyone for not liking it? Instead of blatantly considering technical statistics, one has to think for the benefit of the game and how to make it more fun and interesting. I'm sorry, but Wobba doesn't achieve either of these.
That's just how I feel about it.
This discussion has nothing to do with garchomp. I am certain that there are many amongst the nay-sayers of wobb who would like to see garchomp banned as well (I myself included).
Second, who gives a damn about anywhere else? We are smogon, the premier battling community, period.
edit: With that said, the members on this forum matters. Who cares about "making a definition for ubers." How's about this definition: "If we don't like it, if we say it's uber, it's uber."
Putting aside the fact that the statistics does NOT prove it does not centralize (see opinion of OP in this thread), I'll throw this argument right back at you:
Wobbuffet is 46th is weighted usage and 47th in unweighted usage. He has been unbanned for 5 months. Regardless of any personal opinions or theorymon, the evidence is clear in one aspect :
The majority of players still hates his guts.
Looking through this thread undeniably proves this fact.
At the end of the day, numbers do not make decisions, people to. Whatever the numbers or evidence, at the end of the day it's the people looking at those numbers are the ones who have to make a decision. Looking through all the many votes for kicking wobb's ass to Ubers, I don't think you can deny the fact that the majority of the people, to whom this decision ultimately falls to, want Wobb back in Ubers. They've seen the numbers and said: Yeah, and after seeing the numbers and playing the game, I say ban his ass.
Except... this is not Serebii.net, and the people with posting privileges in the Policy Review - that is, people generally assumed by the site's admins to know what they're actually talking about - have replied with an overwhelming "Ban him". Don't completely ignore that fact. Don't trivialize this process with poor comparisons.
It has been stated several times throughout this thread that A) overcentralization should not be the only determining factor in deciding if a Pokemon is uber or not, B) that Wobbuffet cannot "centralize" the game because you can't actually do anything to prepare for him anyway, C) people's stubborn refusal to use Wobbuffet tainted the statistics and D) "pokemon is used this much" isn't even a clear indicator by itself as to whether or not a Pokemon is centralizing the metagame.
Kyogre. Groudon. Rayquaza. I don't think we ever tested their usage levels in D/P OU, did we? No, we didn't.
Are you serious? You don't think a single poster claiming Wobbuffet is uber has made any factual arguments in this thread? Seriously?
What strategy? I bring Wobbuffet in on something. I Encore. If it attacked me, I kill it next turn. If it didn't attack me, I switch to something that can stat up (maybe set up a Safeguard first). All the while the only thing my opponent can do is choose which option screws them up less. These sound like riveting mindgames to me!
Have you ever even used Wobbuffet? You brought in Weezing to stop my DD'd Gyarados, but guess what: I'm now bringing Wobbuffet back in and either Encoring your Weezing's Thunderbolt/Flamethrower and switching to Garchomp/Heatran (or maybe just staying in and killing Weezing, so you have no Gyarados counter later!), Encoring Will-O-Wisp and Safeguarding my switch-in, Encoring Sludge Bomb and bringing in Lucario, etc. The only way bringing in Weezing doesn't screw you over again is if you Explode the turn after you switch in against Gyarados. And if you do, I don't care! You might have killed Wobb, but your Weezing died too! And since I've still got Gyarados...
No, wait. You're screwed no matter what you do. I have to ask, how much do you actually know about Wobbuffet through experience? Because bringing in Weezing like you suggest, just moments after you've discovered I have Wobbuffet, really does show that you're completely underestimating what Wobbuffet does.
Like you said, this is all just theorymon, but when your theorymon, crafted with the express purpose of debating against a Wobbuffet ban, ends with Weezing/Gliscor either dying or allowing an opponent's Pokemon to set up... Don't you see the problem with that?
Again assuming that only your arguments are reasonable and everyone who disagrees is unreasonable. This doesn't help your cause.
This point simply conflicts with the many claims that Wobbuffet has no counters, because trio works in the same way. Dugtrio simply cannot be switched in against something with flying or the right resistances. Wobbuffet is ineffective against status inducers, clear body, something with taunt, or a staller. Either will get a kill when switched in correctly, and "removes skill from the game", nor do either "have counters".
It doesn't matter how often it's used. Of course it doesn't overcentralize the metagame as much as Gengar or Blissey, but it still proposes a very unique threat that is nearly impossible to counter right away. How can you say its not overcentralizing in anyway when people are aware of its dangers are even more careful to use certain pokemon? I for one am a pokemon player who abuses Heatran, especially scarftran. I can't tell you how many times Wobby trapped my Heatran in an Earthpower or hidden power and Mirror coated it to hell. Now I don't even attack right away, and it's frustrating. IPL's ladder team in March was a perfect example. No one wanted to face him due to his Wobby + stall strategy which in many people's opinion was extremely hard to counter DUE to wobby.
Wobbuffet takes the fun out of the game due to the other opponent's options being sharply limited due to Shadow Tag. Wobbuffet users have to predict? What? Most users Encore right away and MirrorCoar/Counter repsectively. If predicting you mean a 50/50 guess on counter/mirrorccoat then whatever. And how the hell can one prepare for a Wobbuffet? It's not like you can switch out and "counter it" with out ShedShell or u turn (which is often Countered and kills the switched in pokemon!). Bottom line is you can't prepare for such a monster like Wobbuffet, and even if you try to get around it, it's somewhat impossible to do so.
He encored your Swampert and can stall you out and in turn Counters your struggles, what now? If he doesn't want to waste his Encore PP he can switch to a Stat upper and get a free boost, or better yet he can switch to Dugtrio and kill your Stealth rocking swampert! Wobby can counter your Knocck off and kill Gliscor! or he can PP stall Roost or SR or whatever. Both of your scnerios are flawed and Wobby will usually win.
Wobbuffet traps a whole lot more pokemon than Dugtrio as mentioned in this thread, it traps all pokemon excluding pokemon with the ability Trace and Wynaut and Wobbuffet respectively. It can be switched in more times than Dugtrio because of its superior defences and the fact that it could Encore setups/support moves.
I don't think you have faced against Wobbuffet or used it. Clear Body can serve to prevent the lowering of stats via Tickle, but as pointed out in this thread again, Wobbuffet also can do more than just Tickle.
Taunt has been brought up many times, and my point on this is that Wobb wouldn't come in on anything with Taunt.
Wobbuffet would turn a staller into setup bait, or stall it out with Encore/Safeguard. Either way, Wobbuffet being able to stop "stallers" (I assume you mean walls) is in my opinion one of the main points against its viability in OU.
Wobbuffet can absorb Burn/Poison/Paralysis, Encore it, and Safeguard, effectively guranteeing the next pokemon a free switch-in. Sleep obviously would disable a pokemon without Sleep Talk/Insomnia/Vital Spirit, and Freeze also does the same.
Kyo you should go look the previous wobbufett discussion thread before stating
TAY made a team of stat up sweeper where wobby was abused as solo encorer;
the main task of the battler was: switching wobby and encore something, switch a resistant stat upper and then start to sweep or if the move encored is a non attacking one you can just choose the sweeper you like, basically a near no-brain auto play style.
while there are some poke simple to use, wobby extend that to the entire team.
also on a small note as previously discussed in the wobby and metagame topic the most reasonable way to ban things from OU is multiple factor, because raw statistic and theorymon always fail.
So if the community decided to ban wobby even for aestetical good reason we should stick with it.
TAY made a team of stat up sweeper where wobby was abused as solo encorer;
the main task of the battler was: switching wobby and encore something, switch a resistant stat upper and then start to sweep or if the move encored is a non attacking one you can just choose the sweeper you like, basically a near no-brain auto play style.
while there are some poke simple to use, wobby extend that to the entire team.
also on a small note as previously discussed in the wobby and metagame topic the most reasonable way to ban things from OU is multiple factor, because raw statistic and theorymon always fail.
So if the community decided to ban wobby even for aestetical good reason we should stick with it.
Wobbuffet, not only does it trap and kill at least one member of your team, it also helps to set up for other Pokemon in a player's team. Wobbuffet can also be escaped from by U-Turn, Shed Shell , Baton Pass and Shadow Tag. U-Turn must only be used when you have a ghost on your team or your sent-in Pokemon will eat a big Counter. Shadow Tag is only for opposing Wobbuffet, but who switches Wobbuffet into Wobbuffet anymore? tracers can trace Shadow Tag, but they have to switch in..and that doesn't happen. As for Shed Shell, one should not forget that Skarmory/Forretress/Metagross might carry it for Magnezone, it's rare, though. Baton Pass isn't rare but even if it's there smart Wobbuffet players would not switch into a potential Baton Passer. Wobbuffet isn't fully countered, because a counter by definition is to switch in safely and kill. For Wobbuffet that's no longer the case. For that reason Pokemon have to revenge kill it (or U-Turn to a ghost type) and even then it must be either Toxic Dugtrio, Mean-Passer or Pursuiter to ensure that it doesn't flee and come in later to kill yet another Pokemon/set up a sweep. For those reasons I vote Wobbuffet uber.
Okay, I'm not voting for Wobba to be OU, but I've gotta defend Lyf here.
You say it takes no prediction to use Wobb. You just send it in when they send in Weezing. However, this is wrong. What if they predict you're going to send in Wobb and send in Tyranitar? Then there's more prediction if you switch or use Encore, predicting if he Pursuits or Crunches. Better yet, what if it's a Boah? If you don't know what type of Tyranitar it is yet, you have three options: switch, Encore, Counter.
Better still, what if they send in Infernape? If you Encore, you might have to eat two Fire Blasts/Flare Blitzes before Countering or Mirror Coating, which is a lot more than Wobb is comfortable with, maybe enough to put it in range of a couple of Gliscor Earthquakes. If you Counter or Mirror Coat right off the bat, Infernape could get a free stat-up. Then you're stuck in another game: Encore or Mirror Coat (assuming it used Nasty Plot)? If you Encore, it could kill Wobb with two boosted hits, and if you Mirror Coat, it could get another stat-up and OHKO you without it even being Encored, being at +4 and ready to sweep.
Clearly there's more than just mindless "Encore Counter switch" with wobb.
I still vote it to be uber, though.
You say it takes no prediction to use Wobb. You just send it in when they send in Weezing. However, this is wrong. What if they predict you're going to send in Wobb and send in Tyranitar? Then there's more prediction if you switch or use Encore, predicting if he Pursuits or Crunches. Better yet, what if it's a Boah? If you don't know what type of Tyranitar it is yet, you have three options: switch, Encore, Counter.
Better still, what if they send in Infernape? If you Encore, you might have to eat two Fire Blasts/Flare Blitzes before Countering or Mirror Coating, which is a lot more than Wobb is comfortable with, maybe enough to put it in range of a couple of Gliscor Earthquakes. If you Counter or Mirror Coat right off the bat, Infernape could get a free stat-up. Then you're stuck in another game: Encore or Mirror Coat (assuming it used Nasty Plot)? If you Encore, it could kill Wobb with two boosted hits, and if you Mirror Coat, it could get another stat-up and OHKO you without it even being Encored, being at +4 and ready to sweep.
Clearly there's more than just mindless "Encore Counter switch" with wobb.
I still vote it to be uber, though.
Thanks for explaining shadow tag! And thank for ignoring my main point.
I do have experience with wobb, in fact I use it on one of my teams. You seem to lack experience in forming a valid argument. The point about taunt can also be applied to trio; neither of them will switch in on their counters. Once wobb is induced with a status effect, he is practically useless for the rest of the match, unless you support your team with a heal beller.
I can't discuss this anymore because I'm on a phone.
a) I never said it was the only one - it is the main one.
b) that reasoning is completely false. Of course you can prepare for him.
c) that's your personal assumption, and therefore is meaningless.
d) yes, it is.
We didn't test their usage level because it seemed apparent that such a test would turn out to be fruitless.
I did overgeneralize, but 80% of the pro-uber votes on this topic are based off of theorymon or a mere bandwagon fallacy.
I must assume your first sentence is a joke too not to take it as an insult and keep on topic. You're making a ton of assumptions, and employing flawed theorymon. Fine, bring Wobb back in, say i Tbolted your gyara - I will then Will o Wisp your Wobbuffet before you Encore me (yes, I am faster unless you somehow pumped a huge EV investment in Wobb, which we cannot assume), you will be burned, and you will not be able to switch a majority of stat-upping threats.
I've just shown you that Weezing doesn't die, and with Gliscor, the argument was knock off - are you seriously suggesting you can defeat me by countering knock off? The encore will have ended before that happens, and i will roost back up, and you won't have leftovers to heal.
Anyhow, as has become apparent, theorymon should not be the main point of reasoning of this topic, so let's leave it at that.
Wobb is Uber because of several factors that combine to make it too powerful for OU. Wobb chooses its target, prevents the target from switching and is either guaranteed a kill or guarantees a set-up for another poke with Encore in the bag. This significantly reduces the skill necessary to win the game and degrades the competitive environment.
sorry but i ask WHY the wobby user must eat two fire blast/bliz? he can just encore and switch to a fire resist and if the opponent uses a stat up moves then wobby has done his job, main point is that is the wobby player that decide what to do the opponent can just guess.
With Boah, you're kidding right? the opponent can predict such a thing only if he has already seen wobby if not is just bad luck and you still have the option to setup an encore.
No. You are making the assumptions. You assume practically any post rejecting your desires to have Wobbuffet in OU is full of shit. You are calling 80% of the Smogon Community full of shit because we don't agree with you. Maybe you should mention that you have an obvious bias towards Wobbuffet since it is practically your favorite Pokémon and you even wanted it in OU back five months ago. If you're going to enter a discussion, calling every opponent stupid is not even a constructive argument; it's just flaming.
Now that I have that out of the way, I'll move on. How can you assume that every example we give is "flawed theorymon"? 100% of the posters in this thread have either used or battled against Wobbuffet; the examples you are seeing have occurred in battle. I think I speak on behalf of most of the community when I say that if you want to continue participating in this discussion that you give every poster the proper respect they deserve. If you disagree with an opinion, just show it in a reasonable and respectful manner. Theres no way you can expect equal treatment the way you've been posting. Maybe you have a good point, but so far it's only been drowned out by your attitude to disregard any post opposing your opinion.
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